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The Rebirth of Buick.........

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    I think the Crown Vic is only available to fleet buyers....police departments, taxi buyers, rental car agencies, etc. I also don't think they keep them in stock, but instead have to be special-ordered.

    The Grand Marquis is still offered to the public. However, you have to special-order it. The dealers don't keep them around on the lot any more.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Andre is right - the Crown Victoria is now a fleet model.

    Interestingly, the local Ford dealer is now also a Lincoln Mercury dealer, and I don't believe that there are ANY brand-new Panther-platform cars on the lot.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    And yet nothing in the Buick line appeals to me, even though I am probable directly in the middle of the demographics Buick has traditionally targeted (eligible to retire, upper middle class income). Maybe it's because they don't offer anything with a 5 or 6-speed MT.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Funny. The Panther cars are the only Ford products that I'd truly be interested in as a serious purchase. I guess you can still get a Town Car or Grand Marquis if you special-ordered it. I don't really care for the Taurus's grille. I wish they'd have given it something more like the Fusion's.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...a new LaCrosse for either myself or my wife once my Cadillac DTS is paid for. Of course, she's more level-headed when it comes to cars and will drive her 2005 LaCrosse until it's dead.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    How many miles are on your wife's LaCrosse, Lemko?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    About 46K. That car is probably driven the most out of the fleet followed by the Grand Marquis.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    About 46K. That car is probably driven the most out of the fleet followed by the Grand Marquis.

    At that rate, that LaCrosse is going to be around for a long, long time! By the time it wears out, you might be looking at whatever ends up replacing the LaCrosse that just came out!
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Heck, by that time he'll be replacing it with a hovercraft - but a Buick hovercraft!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    guess you can still get a Town Car or Grand Marquis if you special-ordered it.

    Holman Lincoln/Mercury near me still keeps a few new GMs in stock and always has a quite a few late model used GM and TCs. I don't care what anyone says they are really great cars. .

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    Holman Lincoln/Mercury near me still keeps a few new GMs in stock and always has a quite a few late model used GM and TCs. I don't care what anyone says they are really great cars. .

    A used car lot local to me had a 2007 Grand Marquis on their lot about a year ago. It only had around 10,000 miles on it, IIRC, and I think they only wanted $12-13K. It was just a GS model, but for the price seemed like a steal. I briefly thought about buying it. Heck, if I really needed a car at the time, I probably would have!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    It was just a GS model

    Now they don't even offer the GS its only the LS and a scant few options. Same thing on the Town Car they pretty much only come one way now, loaded.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    say a lot about the excitement of the Rebirth of Buick; you have Lemko of course drooling for anything with a Buick badge, and the rest of the group - who are either reminiscing of the 60's, or talking about a 2 year old obsolete Mercury! :D
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    Glad I found this thread.

    What are the thoughts about a new Buick compact sedan slotting below the 2011 Regal? From what I understand it will be similar in size to the 2011 Chevy Cruze.

    Do you think a compact Buick will sell? GM is betting it will and Motor Trend said this month that GM thinks the compact sedan will be the vehicle of choice for future U.S. car buyers.

    Thoughts?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    As a Chevrolet - yes. As a Buick - no.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....Maybe it's because they don't offer anything with a 5 or 6-speed MT. "

    Wait a few more months (I think I'm gonna wish I did); rumor has it the 2010 Regal may have a GS model w/ the 3.6 and a 6 sp Manual.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....Do you think a compact Buick will sell? GM is betting it will and Motor Trend said this month that GM thinks the compact sedan will be the vehicle of choice for future U.S. car buyers. "

    Gosh, I dunno. But there was a post on Autoblog while back about that car being built along side the Cruze, and---get this---EXPORTED to China.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Well, since the Yuan is artifically tied to the Dollar and shipping is a wash in either direction, if the Lordstown plant (or wherever they build it) is fairly automated the higher volume of the Chevy Cruze may make this a good decision.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    I'll have to drive a 2011 Cruze first - before passing judgment on the potential success of the new 2012 mini-Buick.

    I am surprised Buick is going that small with a new sedan but it may turn out to be a good move if GM is even around in 2012.

    The 2011 Regal seems like a no-brainer and that is a car I'd be very interested in purchasing.... ;)
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Now THAT'S serious talk from Buick! I wonder if that will really come to pass.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    If Buick keeps the quality up and prices aggressively, I thnk the upcoming Regal has the potential to be a big seller like the old Cutlass. However, Buick seems to be pricing a bit higher in scale which could hurt Regal vice Camry, et. al. I guess we'll see in another year or so. Unfortunately, the new Malibu hype seems to have vanished which may be a bad sign for these new Buicks.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Well, originally, there was talk about the car being built in China for export here. I think Fritz wanted up to 150,000 cars to import from China here, but that overall NA production would be more here, and the UAW howled like a banshee. Next thing I read is that GM relented, and that the "baby Buick" would be built here and shipped there. I see that and think :surprise: wow!!! It could still wind up here as well. Then you here that the WTO is pressuring China to be fairer w/ imports into their country. All this sounds good for the US and GM, as they have made great inroads into China. Maybe this is the silver lining in the cloud for the US trade imbalance w/ China.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I wouldn't take issue with your conclusion about the U.S. trade imbalance with China. Regarding the U.S. balance of payments overall, however, the dollar's weakness is probably the biggest factor in our recent balance of payments improvement. Therefore, one could say that the silver lining in the weak dollar is that it helps our balance of payments.

    A stronger dollar would be beneficial from some important aspects, however. One of these is that a strong dollar reduces the risk of inflation, although inflation doesn't seem to be an immediate problem. Inflation is likely to become a problem, however, if the economic recovery strengthens and unemployment is reduced. It could also become a problem without these positives, if the decline in the dollar's value should accelerate.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    ...about the new Regal. If Buick is supposed to be a premium brand, then replacing the Lucerne with a more modern car should be the top priority. The LaCrosse should be the cheapest Buick.

    Let Chevrolet handle the market for smaller cars. That is why Alfred P. Sloan wanted all of those brands in the first place. The market isn't crying out for a cheaper Buick. And if Buicks are supposed to be premium motor cars, then not everyone should be able to afford one. I guess we are back to "every division offering a full line of cars." So the new GM isn't that much different from the old one.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I couldn't agree more! I would most definitely be in the market for a larger substantial upscale Buick. Buick should be taking aim at the Lexus LS! Call the Lucerne replacement a Park Avenue! The concept of a smaller, cheaper Buick has led to abominations like the Skyhawk.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    should be taking aim at the Lexus LS!

    Couldn't the platform the G8 is on serve as the Buick flagship? Its a nice roomy car, with a big V8 and RWD. Seems to me that it could be done. I guess GM doesn't feel they have the market for it.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    GM feels they don't have the market for it?!?!? I'M STANDING RIGHT HERE WAVING A BIG WAD OF CASH!!!
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    image

    Here you go. You planning on buying all 25,000 per annum for the next five years?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Your image is broken for us Bumpy (me, anyway). Can cut and paste it but the site isn't letting their images get posted elsewhere I guess.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    But can this really be a good thing for the "new GM"? Building cars here (higher-priced goods and labor) and exporting them to the Chinese market (lower-priced goods and labor)? That sounds like a formula for failure in the long run.

    Really, it makes much more sense for GM to take the trend it started (with the GM-DAT purchase and 10 years of production relocations to Mexico) to its logical conclusion and start building all Buicks in China for export to the U.S. Not the other way around.

    They could even go so far as to make it a China-only brand during periods when the dollar is too weak to make importing Chinese Buicks profitable.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    Here's bumpy's picture from a post a couple back.

    Nice Buick!!!

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "......Really, it makes much more sense for GM to take the trend it started (with the GM-DAT purchase and 10 years of production relocations to Mexico) to its logical conclusion and start building all Buicks in China for export to the U.S. Not the other way around."

    Well, a couple theories here. If (IF!!!) GM intends to keep Buick here and market it as entry level premium, could importing them give them a bap rap, as people in the US perceive that Chinese made goods are of a lower quality and lack the control of harmful chemicals (ie; lead paint in toys)?? Many people laughed a couple years ago at the thought of Buick being perceived as high quality luxury in China, but as we have come to learn, it's no joke. Perception IS reality, whether it's true or not.

    Another loose theory. Could part of Hyundai's sucess in the past 12-18 months be due to the fact that people who could normally afford the $20,000 or so Camry or Malibu are now opting for a $16,000 Sonata in order to cut back some, yet still get that new car??? If so, could part of the reason that the new LaCrosse is flying out of the showroom (outside of it being a new model) be that a comparably equipped model is several thousand dollars cheaper than a Lexus or Acura, thus allowing people to buy new (and American), yet still cut back the payment somewhat??

    Also, I'd assume it costs very little to ship to China these days. Think of all those EMPTY cargo ships heading back to China. I'll bet the shipping companies would like to start sailing full both ways ;)
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Call the Lucerne replacement a Park Avenue!

    And there goes the image Buick is so carefully trying to craft ;) . Here's what i think of when a Buick Park Avenue is mentioned:
    1. Big
    2. Bloated
    3. Living room on wheels
    4. Zero road feel
    5. The kind of car my 85 year old FIL might consider

    If Buick is really serious about reinventing itself, it needs to stay away from many (maybe not all) of the names from the past.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    Nice Buick!!!

    Good looking car, from the front at least. It's enough to make me consider going over-budget the next time I buy a car! And even now, every once in awhile I throw around the idea of trying to find a nice used/leftover new Pontiac G8.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'm starting to see quite a few G8s around here. There must be a lot of people who feel the same way. I think the G8 is the nicest looking Pontiac in a long time.
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    It looks good and it drives good for it's price.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    If Buick is really serious about reinventing itself, it needs to stay away from many (maybe not all) of the names from the past.

    I will second that, and will add that naming a new Buick a Regal is a bad idea. They should just come up with something new and luxurious-sounding.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    An all-new name probably would be for the best, but if they're going to dredge up an old name, "Regal" probably has the least baggage associated with it. My only real issue with it is that the first thing the name "Regal" conjures up is a nicely appointed, upscale coupe. However, a sedan was offered along with the coupe for most of the Regal's lifespan. The name was first used in 1975, and a sedan was offered in 1975-77, 1982-84, and 1990-2005 or whenever they quit making the Regal. In contrast, the coupe was offered consistently from 1975-96.

    And as of a few years back, when it was still in production, the Regal was the most "youthful" Buick sedan, with an average buyer age of around 57. While that might sound ancient, for that class of car it's really not, when you consider that teens and twenty-somethings, for the most part, don't shop for mid- or full-sized cars. I think the average buyer age for the Intrepid was around 45, and that was probably about as youthful as a mid/full-sized car got!

    However, while the Regal's average buyer age was around 57, the LeSabre was more like 67, and the Century and Park Ave were around 70!

    I always liked the name "Electra", but to me that's better suited for a bigger flagship car. Maybe that would be a good replacement name for the Lucerne? I can see how a name like "Park Ave" can come off as old and stuffy, but "Electra" conjures up images of something smooth, sleek, and voluptuous...even if the old Buick Electras didn't always fit that description!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...when you consider that teens and twenty-somethings, for the most part, don't shop for mid- or full-sized cars.

    There are exceptions! ;)

    How about Invicta? It was a short-lived but pretty cool Buick name.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    I don't believe there's anything wrong with the "Park Avenue" as a name. It will depend on the demogrpaphics to whom you are directing the car. As andre1969 points out, not many single kids in their twenties are shopping for a full size sedan with ability to carry people and luggage in comfort, so aiming the naming at them is a waste of money.

    I would like to see a leSabre replacement. I don't need a Park Avenue and that eventually cooled me on the Lucerne. The lower price end was not as fully equipped as the higher-priced models.

    As for "Park Avenue" meaning no road feel, sofa, etc., as an earlier poster posits, they haven't spent much time in a recent Park Avenue. You can have full comfort for a 7 hour trip with one stop and arrive without feeling like you've been beaten up by tar strips, sunken pavement pieces on the interstate, etc.

    It looks to me as if the new LaCrosse has combined quality features into a slightly smaller and well-equipped package. I'm afraid to go test drive one.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    I never really liked the name "Invicta". Sounds too much like a combination of "Convict" and "Indict". Wildcat was a cool name, though, and so was Centurion. I thought LeSabre was a good name too, but probably has too much of a senior citizen aura attached to it these days. A lot of 40-50-somethings probably bought LeSabres back in the day...only problem is, those very people kept right on buying them, but were now 60-70+ somethings and buying them less frequently, while not enough "new" 40-50-somethings were buying them, as they were probably going for Acuras, Lexuses, BMW's, or Hondas and Toyotas (note that Toyota often gets referred to as a Japanese Buick)

    And yeah, Lemko, as I typed that statement about teen and twenty-somethings tending to not buy larger cars, I did have you in mind! :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    I would like to see a leSabre replacement. I don't need a Park Avenue and that eventually cooled me on the Lucerne. The lower price end was not as fully equipped as the higher-priced models.

    One thing I appreciated about the LeSabre, and the older Park Avenue, is that they got pretty good fuel economy, and weren't so heavy that they strained the 3800's performance. However, the Lucerne seemed to push the limits of the 3800, and and suffered a bit in both fuel economy and acceleration. If you went with the V-8, you got good performance, but a further hit to fuel economy, and you also got hit with a noticeable price increase.

    In reality though, it wasn't a huge hit in fuel economy. I think the LeSabre was rated at 20/30 and the Park Ave was 19/29 (less if supercharged though), while the Lucerne was something like 19/28 with the 3800, before they started with those dumbed-down 2007 ratings.

    I wouldn't mind a nice, low-mileage used LeSabre or Park Ave. Only problem is, they've both been out of production long enough that it's not like you can just go and find a nice 1-2 year old example anymore and get an almost-new car at a fraction of the price.

    As andre1969 points out, not many single kids in their twenties are shopping for a full size sedan with ability to carry people and luggage in comfort, so aiming the naming at them is a waste of money.

    Actually, I did take a little bit of ribbing when I bought my Intrepid. I was 29 at the time, so about 15-16 years (or more, if I was wrong about its average buyer age) below the median buyer age. I remember one of my friends, who had a Civic, asking me why I bought a car like that..."it just screams FAMILY", he commented. Coulda been worse though...or better, depending on your perspective. A week or two before I bought the Intrepid, I went to a dealer to look at a '94 and '96 Caprice, and was kinda hot for the '96.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    LeSabre is a name that probably has less "goodwill" attached than Park Avenue has.

    I see lots of younger people buying used Park Avenues and leSabres and Bonnevilles that are in their price range. What effect will their ownership of a used Park Avenue have on their openness to buying a vehicle in the future with the name Park Avenue on a new offering from GM?

    In this region, used Auroras, Park A's, leSabres, Bonnevilles, Rivieras, and others all seem to be very popular as lower price purchases. I've seen lots of great-looking Auroras and Rivieras that have been traded in for something or sold outright by owners who must have kept them in their garage and driven them only on Sunday. They are really good looking. Some are being urbanized with larger wheels, but most are kept more or less original.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    When I was 19, I bought a 1979 Buick Park Avenue
    When I was 22, I bought a new 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic
    When I was 24, I bought a new 1989 Cadillac Brougham
    When I was 29, I bought a new 1994 Cadillac DeVille

    I like Buick's traditional names: Special, Century, Super, Roadmaster, and Limited.

    Well, Century's a no-go. Century used to refer the to the "Banker's Hot Rod" when Buick put the big Roadmaster engine in the lighter Special in 1936- sort of a proto-muscle car. Today, "Century" has the perception of the average age of its drivers.

    Roadmaster's an excellent name blighted by the failed 1992-96 car. Still, I'd love to have a 1994-96 Roadmaster with the LT-1 derived engine.

    I think "Special" would still be a great name for an entry level Buick - entry level meaning something like the current LaCrosse and not what is essentially a low-end Chevrolet with the tri-shield slapped on it!

    I've seen "Super" used on recent trim levels of the LaCrosse and Lucerne.

    Limited should be reserved for the ULTIMATE Buick - I'm talking LOADED Lexus LS level. Buick Limiteds were once a preferred conveyance of royalty.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    I thought I was the only one:

    17 - 89 Grand Marquis
    20 - 98 Olds 88 (total lemon didn't last long 9 months)
    21 - 2000 Toyota Solara (how'd that happen?)
    21 - 79 Continental
    23 - 89 Town Car

    Now 31 and drive a Genesis after two Japanese Buicks (Avalons)

    Love the big "boats" I took plenty of heat from my friends for my car choices. Would also love the idea of big RWD Buick, GM has the hardware to do it.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • steve665steve665 Member Posts: 3
    I don't care for the name "Special" because over the years, it was the least special of the Buicks when the name was in use. Having said that, I do like my red and white 1954 Buick Special and it is special to me.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "...However, the Lucerne seemed to push the limits of the 3800, and and suffered a bit in both fuel economy and acceleration. If you went with the V-8, you got good performance, but a further hit to fuel economy, and you also got hit with a noticeable price increase."

    The newer 3.9 may be a good compromise. Being a 60 degree V6, it should be smoother and more refined than the 90 degree 3800, even though the latter has balance shafts. It's probably a little quicker than the 3800 too, and less front end heavy than the V8. Don't know if the 3.9 is as rugged as the 3800, though.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    How about Skylark?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Skylark? The worst Buick of the last 20 years? Are you kidding?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    But in the 60's and 70's they were some of the sharpest coupes and convertibles on the road. Also a great combo of luxury and sport. You're right about the X car version however! When you think about it, GM pretty much wrecked every great, classic brand name they had. Talk about lost intangible goodwill assets from their balance sheet.
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