Toyota 4Runner

mechfred1 · April 2003

jaredmsd by Fred;
I was tought as a mechanic to check and double check.How come my dealer and Toyota factory has no record of it?He may be right and if so Toyota should step up to the plate.My purpose was to find out if this was true so as not to have people think the V6 is no good.In my opinion it is the smoothest engine i have ever owned period.Fred.

cliffy1 · April 2003

Dealers are in business to make money. Selling cars at invoice is not generally good for the bottom line. No, I know invoice is not the cost but neither is invoice less holdback. Cost is invoice less holdback plus commissions, taxes, utilities, average floorplan expenses, average dealer advertising expenses and a bunch of other variable expenses. I work at a dealership and I couldn't begin to tell you what "cost" is on any single car on our lot.

Invoice is a number to help you compare values. If demand in your area means selling Limited models $1500 over invoice, then $1200 over invoice would be a great deal and $2000 over would be a rip off. If demand was low and most stores were selling the same vehicle for $500 under invoice, then selling for invoice would be a rip. Get it? Invoice is only there for you to compare your price to the market.

BTW, there is an advertising fee added to the dealer's invoice. That is something the dealers can't escape. It is real but the amount varies by region. This is why Edmunds and KBB can't put an exact figure with it. The total invoice in DE is not the same as it is in Los Angeles.

delguy · April 2003

thanks. I thought the advertising was bs.

mackabee · April 2003

Yikes, I just got this on my 81 Celica! ; )
Actually Toys have always been famous for the rotten egg smell. It's due to the catalytic converter and has something to due with exhaust gasses. It's no big deal! It happens once in a while even on my MR2 and Camry. Just turn the recirc/fresh switch or lever to recirc before you start the vehicle and once it gets going switch it to fresh. I never use the fresh setting in traffic, only on the open road.
: )
Mackabee

chorton · April 2003

If they can't give ACCURATE info to ANYONE why do people use them. If they do the research to get the invoice from the manufacturer, why don't they research the regional expenses and adjust accordingly....GIVE PEOPLE ALL THE INFO IF YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE ANY!!!!!!!!!!!

cliffy1 · April 2003

I agree. Edmunds used to have an explanation of the advertising fee. I don't know when they stopped. I wish all consumer sources would warn you of things like this. When they don't, it just makes my job harder and makes you angry at the dealership.

stever · April 2003

There's a little blurb in the old FAQ along with an explanation of why some option prices aren't listed.

The newer How We Calculate New TMV Prices help page says:

"Many vehicle invoices include a legitimate advertising fee levied by either the manufacturer or regional dealer groups. Ad fees can range from less than 1% of the vehicle's MSRP to more than 3%, depending on region. Metropolitan-area dealers are more likely to charge higher advertising fees than rural dealers. Whenever there is an advertising fee, we take it into account when calculating TMV."

I'm not sure why we don't break out the ad fees on the invoice pricing somewhere - our data people account for it somehow in computing the TMV. I'll note the issue in my next report to management; meanwhile, feel free to send in your own Feedback Form.

Hope this helps a little.

Steve, Host

chorton · April 2003

i guess you didn't see my profile...It makes my job harder too.

cliffy1 · April 2003

irishmist67 · April 2003

Has anyone been able to find a sport edition without the sun roof.....it is listed as an option but is seems like it is standard on every sport model. Please help!!!

mackabee · April 2003

How 'bout getting management to revise this sentence also "Metropolitan-area dealers are more likely to charge higher advertising fees than rural dealers" this statement makes it seem like we the dealer add the advertising charge and not the manufacturer or distributor to the invoice. My .25 cents.
Mackabee

stever · April 2003

lol, are you trying to grab some business back from the rural dealers?

Management is in California and I'm in Boise, so it's not like I can walk down the hall and bribe them with Krispy Kremes.

Same advice - please send in a Feedback Form. I think you members often have more influence on changing this kind of stuff than the hosts anyway.

thanks!

Steve, Host

azrunner · April 2003

I too had a positive experience with the dealer as did Pat84. I did my homework and checked on-line invoice prices as well as actual sticker prices throughout AZ before I made my purchase. Tim's Toyota in Prescott (rep: Manny) was fair and no hassle. They quoted me at invoice +$200 ($32, 600+ tax/license) and never wavered up or down on the price. I kept shopping and became more and more discouraged with dealers fishing to get me to their site only to have mega add-ons to jack the price sky-high. A couple of times they even acted like we had a deal and then went on to write up a ticket for much more than negotiated!
BTW - on my dirt road of 13 residences, there are 12 Toyotas (5 purchased from Tim's in the last 2 years!)
I am happy with my purchase both financially and mechanically. The only time that I have smelled the smell is when I accelerated hard on a low tank of gas.

whitney8 · April 2003

Once I got past the 1K mark, in my V8 Sport, I began mashing the pedal more (love that power). Lo and behold I would get the stink, (especially in stop and go traffic). Just for a few minutes though, and it would go away. Don't get me wrong, I love this rig! Yesterday I hit the slopes, one last time, and was doing alot of passing on the way up and never got the stink. But then again I had the windows up the whole time.

Others have mentioned previous vehicles with the stink. Towards the end, my '94 V6 4x4 truck had it too. However I believe that was due to an old, over worked CAT.

There may be help on the horizon. The last time I was at ARCO, there was a sticker on the pump that said something like "New, lower SULFER content"!!! So the gas companies know that there is a problem. Makes one think that it is not just a Toyota issue..

For those taking notes on locations of the stink, I live in WA. Ave MPG around 16, mostly surface streets.

whitney8 · April 2003

For those with rear wiper issues:

SYMPTOM:
The rear wiper does not completely contact the window when wiping, resulting in a "rainbow" effect.

PROBLEM:
Lift the wiper out of its little cradle, and there is a bumper that the wiper arm rests against when not in use. This rubber bumper tends to stick to the plastic wiper arm, which does not let the arm and blade extend all the way when deployed (turned on). Once the wiper goes back and forth a couple times it usually releases.

SOLUTION:
My suggestion is to apply some silicone (spray, NOT RTV!) to the rubber bumper. This should eliminate the sticking. No silicone you say? Try some baby powder.
My guess is that this only affects new rigs, because the more you use the wiper, the more "road grit" will get between the bumper and the arm.

pilotvboy · April 2003

I WAS QUOTED A PRICE FOR '03 4RUNNER V8 SR5 2WD FOR $25,232 BEFORE TAXES AND LICENSE FEES? IS THIS A GOOD DEAL ANYONE? I WAS OFFER THESE OPTIONS BELOW.

[AL] Aluminum alloy wheels with P265/70R16 radials.
[DR] Black Roof Rack /w cross bar
[KG] RUNNING BOARDS - BLACK - Black Running Boards
[Z1] PREFERRED ACCESSORY PACKAGE - Carpet Floor / Cargo Mat (5--pc. Set) - Cargo Net - First Aid Kit

paden · April 2003

We just got a SR5 V6 4X2 for $25,200 out the door.

it has the following options.

Moonroof, black running boards, roof rack, preffered accessories package.

it seemed like the dealers are hacing a harder time selling the v8 compared to v6s. could be the gas prices right now.

fishingguy · April 2003

Used my 4X4 SR5 V8 to tow my boat from Atl to Pensacola this weekend. This was mostly highway driving but I was very pleased with the towing performance for anybody wondering (cept 9.5 mpg, uggh). Although I have never weighed the rig, my guess is that my boat, motor, gear and trailer are about 2600 to 3000 lb. It was a family of 4 in the vehicle. There was some downshifting from 4 to 3 while in cruise in the rolling Alabama hills. I was tempted to drive in D but did not. The vehicle now has 2.5K miles on it and I am pleased as the day I purchased it. Rotten egg smell? Yes when back window is down and I accelerate at speeds higher than 35mph. Needless to say the back window now stays up. What are folks using for engine oil, 5W30 as precribed, synthetic or non-synthetic. The 5 weight oil just seems so thin for a V8 SUV.

pat84 · April 2003

I think that the 5W30 is light weight by V-8 engine standards of years ago. I think the thinner oil is for pollution control. What size ball did you get to put in the hitch ?

nippononly · April 2003

oil is used so it can be pumping instantly to all parts of the engine when it is started up stone cold.

There is what, one to two points fuel economy difference between the V-6 and V-8 in the real world? There is not even much of a price difference. Personally, when they positioned the V-6 and the V-8 so close together in price and fuel economy I wondered to myself how they would ever sell any V-6s. And having driven both now, I can happily report that both engines are total overkill anyway.

jaredmsd · April 2003

Irishmist67,

I'm in california, and I was desperately searching for a 4x4 v6 sport w/o any options, especially the moonroof. I had no luck whatsoever. I decided to special order my rig, which is actually due into port probably in the next month and a half or so. In california, they were pretty much only sending fully-loaded 4x4 sports because they know people who want 4wd will get it at any cost, I frankly didn't want to spend the extra 3 grand on options. My penalty for it was waiting a few months for my car and getting a minimum deal of $1000 over invoice, versus a possible $400 over invoice or so. In the end, I still came out on top though. I would suggest calling some dealers in your area to see what they say, and make sure you tell them, that it isn't an option to buy one w/ the moonroof, so they will actually look HARD for one w/o. Or ask nicely in here, because it seems we have a few people in here now that work at dealerships.

-Jared

vodgut · April 2003

I noticed a similar problem with the rear wiper blade only making contact at the very end. For me, I thought the joint in the blade got gunked up and did not flex to allow the whole blade to make contact with the window. Gently moving the joint to un-stick it seemed to allow it to make contact again.

But whether it stays that way, I don't know. There hasn't been any appreciable precipitation here where I've had to use the rear wiper in a few weeks.

cliffy1 · April 2003

Its good to see that my 9.5 MPG is not an aberation.

fishingguy · April 2003

2" ball. That brings up an interesting question on the ball hitch. When I tightened the ball on the hitch tongue, the ball still rotated on the tongue since it tighted to the collar for the ball stud and not to the tongue. This is hard to describe to anyone that has not seen the design. This was the first time I had seen that but it looks like it is by design although maybe the collar is a bit too tall by mistake. Any thoughts? Regarding the 9.5mpg, I was hoping for better but wife's Acura does the same and so does friend's Tundra. Towing a heavy trailer just sucks (gas that is).

corancher · April 2003

Good post by Cliffy1 ("tough room" #5700) and much appreciated.
Those ad fees are about 2.25% of base invoice price here, and there appears to be no way the dealer can avoid them. Here they're itemized on the dealer (not necessarily the factory) invoice as TDA, probably standing for "Toyota Dealer Association" and relating to what I believe is the "Portland" region. They may be consistent across this region, and I expect rebates and incentives are also consistent across the region.
So they're not bogus. Does that mean the buyer should treat them like everything else in the true factory invoice cost (to the dealer, including the effect of holdbacks and incentives)? In my opinion, no.
As I understand it, these ad fees are pooled and used to support collective local & regional advertising in newspapers, TV, etc. If the dealers were not charged these fees they would instead pay directly for their own advertising, and they would pay this out of ordinary profit on the sale of vehicles.
Therefore these advertising fees, while unavoidable, cover one of the costs of doing business. Here's an example, from my perspective as a (past and potential future Toyota) buyer: A dealer sells me a vehicle for his *dealer* invoice cost, plus $400. His dealer invoice cost includes holdback (profit to him) of $450 and an advertising fee of $550. I think it's fair to say that his gross profit on this deal is $1400, but that he was forced to buy advertising of $550. If he hadn't been forced to buy this advertising in a pooled form, he would have had to buy advertising on his own, and so the advertising serves to cover a portion of his normal business expenses, just like ordinary profit would.
I don't want to beat this to death, but I would like to close by saying I can understand dealer frustration with this arrangement. They have limited influence on this advertising and no flexibility, and probably feel that they could spend it better (or spend less and sell vehicles for less) if they had the chance.

cliffy1 · April 2003

Several things:

1. Thanks for the respectful response. These discussions can get ugly and I appreciate your tone.

2. Dealers still have advertising expenses beyond what going on the invoice and is given to the association.

3. Your argument could also be used with respect to the destination fee. We are charged $510 to get the vehicles here. If we were to arrange our own transportation for the vehicles, it is something we would have to pay for anyway. If you look at it that way, it is another "cost of doing business."

4. I'll say it again. Profit is not the amount we sell a car for over invoice. It is also not the amount we sell it for over invoice, less holdback. Profit takes into account all expenses involved with selling a car.

5. Invoice is only a reference point. Calling it a basis for profit only serves to increase consumer frustration.

corancher · April 2003

Cliffy1, I'm glad to hear that respect goes both ways. These discussions are more useful and more enjoyable if that's the overall tone.
Your points are well made and well taken. I agree that invoice is primarily useful as a reference point, and for comparison purposes it's especially important to understand what's in it and what isn't. This promotes valid comparisons and avoids pointless arguments due to differing assumptions.
My post was, in part, a response a sales manager who sat across from me several weeks ago and acted like he was being very transparent about all his costs but repeatedly dodged questions about TDA, implying that it was a mandatory factory cost that offered no benefit to him.
My example calculation of *gross* profit was made to illustrate a point, and might be valid from an analyst's point-of-view, but wasn't meant to represent the way a dealer would view the business. Many discussions (by buyers) of profit are pointless, except where it helps the buyer understand a little of the dealer's position with respect to the most obvious costs and fees. In the end it's the market conditions and negotiations that trump the rest, and dealers need to make a reasonable *net* profit in aggregate terms to stay in business.
Thanks for the response.

mtnridr · April 2003

Just in case no one has seen this:

New MEMO this morning to all dealers:

April 14, 2003

TO: All Toyota Dealers

SUBJECT: 2003 4Runner Mid-Year Price Announcement

While the all-new 4Runner is up 35% year over year  an impressive achievement in a segment down 4%  we remain committed in our efforts to further increase market share. In support of this goal, Toyota Motor Sales is pleased to announce several product and price enhancements to the 2003 4Runner.
On SR5 models, we will significantly improve 4Runners value and broaden its market appeal by adding the attractive Appearance Package with color-keyed bumpers / cladding / license plate garnish, running boards, fog lamps, and 16 alloy wheels as standard equipment beginning with April 2003 production. This equipment will be added with no increase to base MSRP.

Prior to the arrival of April production units, all 2003 4Runner SR5's with the Appearance Package in inventory as of the close of business of April 14th will receive new Monroney (MSRP) labels to reflect new pricing and equipment changes.

As an added enhancement to lineup value, base MSRP for all V6 units delivered on or after April 15th will be reduced by $150. This reduction will also affect SR5 V6 units with the Appearance Package in dealer stock prior to the 15th (those receiving new
Monroneys).

Beginning with May production, base prices on all V8 models will increase by a modest $300. All V8 models will receive an upgraded standard tow hitch that will satisfy most Mid-SUV buyer needs. Also beginning with May Production, the Appearance Package with color-keyed bumpers & cladding and running boards will be added as standard equipment to 4Runner Sport Edition models.

Even with the addition of this equipment, prices for all Sport models will be reduced. V6 Sport prices will decrease by an additional $630, while V8 Sport models will receive a net price reduction of $330.

With the change in standard equipment, the option price for 17 alloy wheels on SR5 is now $100 and this price will be reflected on SR5 units with Appearance Package that
are repositioned on April 15, 2003 or are produced beginning in April 2003. + All SR5s with the Appearance Package in Dealer Stock as of close of business on April 14, 2003 will reflect the V6 decrease in base MSRP of $150 and the change in standard equipment of the Appearance Package, Running Boards, and Alloy wheels. With the standardization of 16 Alloy Wheels, the 17 Alloy will be reduced to $100.

All SR5s with the Appearance Package that are wholesaled beginning April 15, 2003 will reflect the V6 decrease in base
MSRP of $150 and the change in standard equipment of the Appearance Package, Running Boards, and Alloy wheels. With
the standardization of 16 Alloy Wheels, the 17 Alloy will be reduced to $100.

All V6 units wholesaled beginning April 15, 2003 will have a $150 decrease in base MSRP. This includes units produced prior
to April production that are on the water or in port stock without appearance package.

Base MSRP of all 5/03 produced V8 models will increase by $300 (Net Sport adjustment of -$330 after wheel/fog lamp credit)

meemo87 · April 2003

hmmmm....that's interesting. I'll take a V-8 Sport with the appearance package as soon as they are avaialable!

dust90 · April 2003

That ball needs to be TIGHT. Go to your friendly auto parts store or hardware store and get washer(s) so the ball will not move in the bar.

joanvb · April 2003

Regarding mtnridr's recent posted memo, which included "All V8 models will receive an upgraded standard tow hitch that will satisfy most Mid-SUV buyer needs."
Is there any additional information regarding the upgraded hitch? I've ordered a 4x4 V8, which has probably already been produced. I'm wondering if it doesn't come with the upgraded hitch, will it be possible to change it? I plan to tow a 21' Trail Lite travel trailer.
Thanks.
JVB

magoomba · April 2003

I just purchased a V8 limited, loaded with everything but NAV and rear ride height control. I've been reading the posts in this board for quite some time and find all of the info quite helpful. I was riding around today trying to replicate the conditions posted here. What I found was the sulfur smell appeared when the back window was open, and only under hard acceleration. With the windows closed, it did not exist. I also found it disappeared as quickly as it came on. As soon as I backed off the throttle, it went away.
I've only put around 200 miles on so far, and otherwise very happy with my 4runner. Has anyone experienced this issue with lots of miles? Seems like most of the posts have been on fairly new vehicles, I wonder if it passes with time/mileage?
For the record, I live in MA and it's still the first tank of gas, I'm not sure what octane the dealer put in, but I know it was Citgo brand.

poseidon · April 2003

Do those changes re: the sprot mean no more grey body cladding, even as an option? I'm not a fan of the appearnce, but I appreciate it's utility/protection when off pavement.

kb28 · April 2003

Just when you think you've got it right. Re above additions to Sport package. Last week I ordered a Sport package in titanium. The only reason I did not consider the Limited was because running boards were standard (I do not want them--they are rock knockers off road)and I happen to like the gray cladding with the titanium. Given a promised delivery date in June, it seems likely the unit will be built in May in which case it will come with standard running boards and the appearance package; exactly what I don't want!! Cliffy, or anyone, is there a way to avoid this and get it as ordered, that is without running boards and the appearance package.

kb28 · April 2003

Here in Louisiana it is illegal for a dealer to tack on advertising fees, pooled or not. There was a class action suit several years ago and the dealers were forced to refund quite a bit of change. Of course the attorneys made all the money and the consumers were given certificates good for $200 or so off their next purchase.

whitney8 · April 2003

kb28, If it does show up with the running boards, and Appearance Pkg. The running boards are easily removable, and I bet you could find someone who would love to swap you the Appearance Pkg for the Gray Cladding. Does anyone know if this is easily accomplished?

I like the cladding on my Gray Sport. The colors blend well, and it is useful off road and in parking lots!

corancher · April 2003

If these changes are indeed happening, it would solve some problems. The cladding has not been well accepted by many, and in the last few months the price gap between the 4Runner and (mostly domestic) competitors has been getting progressively larger. I suspect that dealers (rather than the factory) have been hit the worst by this, as their margins have not been very good on this vehicle, despite its newness and many improvements. I was wondering when the factory would begin to share the pain.
There have recently been incentives on the ones with the cladding, and a salesman told me this weekend that there was now $1k dealer cash on the SR5s without the appearance package.
But maybe someone can enlighten me here--If they've effectively reduced the price of the SR5s with the appearance package by about $1k (which roughly matches the incentive on the ones without), what are they going to do to move all those on dealer lots with the gray cladding? Will the newer ones with the painted cladding just sell with less discount from MSRP?
Sorry if I seem a bit dull-witted about this--it's late.
By the way, I've seen the appearance package described as PIO, but I think all the painted bits are actually installed at the factory, and so it would not be at all cheap to retrofit existing units at the dealer or after sale.

newgrad · April 2003

Wow. I can't believe Toyota is actually dumping the gray cladding across it's model line (or at the very least making it an option and putting on the appearance package as standard equip). Could all of our gripes have finally gotten thru?? Now if they could only do something about those squared off wheel wells--just kidding, just kidding, I'll take what I can get. As a big fan and owner of a Sport Edition, I just couldn't bring myself to say I liked the 2003 version. But now things are looking up. Way to go Toyota!

BTW, is the Navigation System voice activated??

pg123 · April 2003

My dealer in MA said that the changes mentioned in mtnridr's post are available now in the Japanese market, but won't be available here till 2004.

Is this true ?

mtnridr · April 2003

I actually saw this memo posted on another website, and the person who posted it always seems to be right on. I suppose Toyota finally did listen to all the gripes from people who hated the cladding, but I also hope they keep it as an option. It does come in handy when you are off pavement.

jaredmsd · April 2003

For those who followed my build order situation, or for those that were considering a build order, or already did one, here's an interesting bit of info. I ordered my vehicle (V-6 Sport 4x4, no options) at the beginning of Feb. and was told that the mid May timeframe (14 weeks) was the earliest I could expect my vehicle, with a best guess of even later (early June). Quite on the contrary, my truck is on the boat over as I write this and is due in port on April 22nd, dealer by the 30th at the latest. So when they give you a 14 week minimum, and you assume more like a 16 week minimum (like I did) you might be mistaken.

Shoot, now I have to hurry up and sell my other truck. Anyone looking for a great '95 4wd blazer in San Diego?

-Jared

pg123 · April 2003

My dealer in MA said that the changes mentioned in mtnridr's post are available now in the Japanese market, but won't be available here till 2004.

Is this true ?

delguy · April 2003

I too have smelled the sulfer smell. I test drove a v8 limited yesterday. Halfway through I rolled down all the windows and floored it a couple of times, and yes I could smell it. It wasn't overpowering, but it was there. With the windows up, I couldn't smell a thing. For me it just means there's another factor to consider.

Of course if the v6 is going to be discounted some, I might just stick w/ that. I just wish there were more v6 limiteds out there.

delguy

mtnridr · April 2003

Just spoke to my dealer and he said that they are going to be selling the Sport Edition w/ matching cladding probably by late May early June.

claddingsuxs · April 2003

the wheel fenders from the appearance package would it be an easy swap? I was told that the limited fenders wasent a clean swap and some mods needed to be made but i figered the appearance package fenders would have the same bolt pattern as the grey cladding on the sr5.

chorton · April 2003

You would probably have to order them as a replacement part...this means they would come in primed only. You would have to get a body shop to paint them. Since Toyota doesn't sell paint (other than touch-up)this could get ugly. Not sure about the alignment- seems it would be a match since they all have the same BODY!!??

joatmon · April 2003

Don't worry about a paint match. A good body shop will fix you up. Toyota doesn't make paint either. Same problem as if you smash a fender and need it repainted.

pat84 · April 2003

I had an interesting discussion with my service department.
Question : Can you make the "tweet tweet" for the remote louder ? ANS : No, that's the way it is.
Question : Can I get the rear widow to close with the remote ? ANS. No, I have a Sequoia with the same rear window "open" only with the remote
Question : Can I get the doors to unlock when I put it in park and still have them lock when i put it in gear ? ANS: No, that would be too complex. Me: my father had an 86 Cadillac that had that feature.
Question : Why doesn't the trailer hitch fit in the receiver ? The receiver is not 2" eitther ANS. We can fix that.

One for 4. I sure am glad I like my gray cladding. If I asked to get it changed.

NO SOUP FOR YOU.

drivelexus · April 2003

has anyone recently purchased the 03 4runner with the Rear ent. system.? I know it was supposed to be available in Spring 03. Dealers don't seem to know anything about it.

also looking for consensus on current 03 4runner owners about their vehicles.

I am looking to purchase 03 ltd v8 Prices and recommended dealers in NY/CT would be helpful as well.

chorton · April 2003

if you refer to page 17 in your owners manual you will see you can change the setting of the auto lock feature.

to set the lock so it unlocks when you put it back in park simply put the key in the "on" position, within 10 seconds of that hold down the unlock button on the drivers door for 5 sec. when you release the lock button it should lock and unlock to let you know it has been reprogrammed

Toyota 4Runner

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