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Comments
Well, Car and Driver mag clocked a Prius 0-60 mph in 11.3 seconds. Thats very slow. In comparison, my '05 Freestyle goes 0-60 in 8.5 seconds, and its even considered a little slow. And since the electric motors and batteries weigh about 400 lbs, one could build an all-gas-engine Prius that comes in at 2500 lbs instead of 2900 lbs, which means a 1.2L or 1.3L engine can easily get the same 11.3 secs 0-60 times the Prius Hybrid gets now. And braking / handling would be better because of the more nimble weight. And it would be $5,000 cheaper. The light narrow body and small narrow wheels contribute a lot to the fuel economy, more than non-engineers might think. (My guess is you're not an engineer, kdhspyder.)
kdyhspyder, this is the easiest argument I ever won.
But to the real subject of this thread, the Ford Fusion is a much more robust car than the Prius. Fusion is roomier, more rugged, better in crosswinds, handling, etc. than the Prius, so Ford has done an excellent job. As for me, I wouldn't buy it since I don't do anywhere near 15,000+ miles per year, as I can get a 4-cylinder Fusion non-hybrid for thousands less.
Even without the battery pack, two e-motors and PSD...but plus the weight of a traditional tranny the vehicle would likely weigh in at about 2600lbs which puts it slightly heavier than the Yaris and Fit both of which also use the 1.5L ICE.
Because of it's extra size and weight, with or without the hybrid option, the Prius is quicker to 60 and in the 1/4 mile than the Yaris but not as quick as the the Fit. But that's more due to Toyota's tuning of the engines for Fuel Economy rather than for performance.
The passenger volume of the Prius is significantly greater than the other two but the real kicker is that the fuel economy is far far better than the other two 1.5L ICE-only vehicles.
Fit.......... 28 City / 35 High / 31 Comb
Yaris...... 29 City / 35 High / 31 Comb
Prius...... 48 City / 45 High / 46 Comb
So dropping the hybrid option would essentially make the Prius into a Fit. Whoopee. The whole idea of the hybrid option is to improve the fuel economy.
BTW all of them have normal 15" wheels which at the time they were designed 6+ yrs ago was the standard for that vehicle size. We'll see about the Gen 3 is debuted in about 5 min.
See prior post about weight and engine size. That's what this tangent was about in any event. But that's all moot now. The Gen 2's are finished as of today. The G3's will soon be built with 0-60's closer to your Freestyle.....but getting 50 mpg.
Yes your point about driving well under 15000 miles is critical. At that level it really doesn't matter which vehicle is chosen. Just choosing the most enjoyable one is all that matters.
You can bet that Toyota will do everything in their power to undermine the parts supply as they did with the Escape Hybrid. They had common suppliers if memory serves me. And Ford claimed they were being held up by Toyota.
Oh, and who said that business needed to be fair? The business I know is kill, maim and crush...but do it with a smile and a handshake.
Actually, I've always thought of it as more of a football game. You can get away with murder so long as the refs don't throw the yellow flag. Then you're gonna get penalized.
How many TCHs did Toyota sell last year?
Since the FEH is the best-mileage hybrid SUV on the road, it's not surprising that the FFH/MMH will have a strong number for it's size.
I read the C & D comparison and at least Ford seems to have something for their efforts. As usual GM is a mess as the Malibu hybrid is basically a joke. I'm thinking the Volt will to be to late.
Ford, Toyota and Honda have it right. Get the hybrid technology into the vehicles that the bulk of the customers actually can buy. GM needs it's 2-Mode technology in the Malibu tomorrow, but it's at least a year or two away. GM has all of its efforts wrapped up in the Volt.
The Fusion hybrid system is just an improved version of the Escape system. The Escape system has been flawless as far as I know - they're even being used as NYC taxis. If it hasn't failed by now I don't think it will. And there's no reason to think the Fusion will be any different based on it's track record.
I agree with you, but the point I was attempting to make is that Ford does not have the reputation regarding their hybrids that Toyota has. It's been well publicized that Toyota's hybrids are very reliable. I'd say most people aren't aware of a hybrid Escape.
With the 2010 Fusion, I think Ford definitely has a winner. GM still looks lost as ever.
Smart move. Fun one, too. I'm guessing you'll have it in another 4 months. The delay will be caused by the glowing Feb. 2009 Car and Driver test review of it spiking demand.
Ratings will be higher than Fusion (as they should be...smaller, lighter, less powerful), and careful driving should net you 60 mpg.
Ford has a weiner.
Ford has pulled off a game changer with this 2010 model, creating a high-mpg family hauler that’s fun to drive. That achievement has two components: First, the machinery is unexpectedly refined—call it Toyota slickness expressed with car-guy soul. Second, the electronic instrument cluster involves the driver, invites you into the hybrid game, and gives you the feedback needed to keep increasing your personal-best mpg number.
Or you can say the heck with it and opt for a minimum-distraction display that shows little beyond the speedo.
No matter which you ultimately choose, you’re welcomed to the game with green grass and blue sky, a dashboard notion so corny we would groan if it weren’t so vividly executed. Hybrid enthusiasts will select the expert screen. All eyes sweep to the power grouping that shows the level of battery charge beside two columns of discharge meters, one for power consumed to propel the vehicle, the other a sum of all accessory loads (lights, fans, air conditioning, stereo, etc.).
How far can you go without the engine? That’s the game. Easy on the accessory loads, of course, but whenever you’re moving, the propulsion meter gives you an EV bracket. Keep your propulsion power within the EV bracket by modulating the “gas” and you’ll drive on the battery, up to 47 mph under ideal circumstances. Call it a video game to go.
Under normal driving, the engine starts and stops far more often than in the other hybrids. It comes and goes stealthily. Your wife won’t notice, and you probably won’t, either, unless you’re really into the hybrid game.
Nothing about the leather-lined test car, optioned up from its $27,995 base price to $32,555, seemed economy minded except for the mileage readings. On that score, the Fusion topped the others, turning in a 34-mpg score card for the overall 300-mile test run. It also finished highest in two of the three specialized tests, with a 34.3-mpg mark on the rural loop and 36.9 mpg on the city loop. Official EPA fuel-economy numbers are 41 mpg city, 36 mpg highway, roughly 720 city miles between fill-ups. For a four-door with civilized room for five, that’s a standing-O achievement.
Though the Fusion gets out-hustled by the Altima and the Camry—at 3805 pounds, the Ford is the heaviest of the four—we think 8.5 seconds to 60 mph is just fine considering the fuel economy. All of these players were too tightly grouped in braking and roadholding to draw significant distinctions, but for the record, the Fusion did tie with the Altima at 0.80 g for top marks on the skidpad. The suspension feels nicely taut, well planted. The tires communicate more than the Camry’s and speak in tones more refined than the Altima’s.
As in the Altima and the Camry, the power delivery of the Fusion’s CVT is hard to hold steady in cruising conditions. The test logs include many comments about “surging.” Engaging the cruise control deals with it every time.
Ford really hit all the marks with this hybrid Fusion, combining excellent fuel economy with slick manners and an engrossing personality. Fun and fuel economy have finally gotten married in a mid-size sedan.
Basically we have to see what the EPA says. That's the ultimate level playing field, where the vehicles are tested under the exact same neutral conditions. Though i have to admit that Insight is one sharp-looking vehicle; MUCH better looking than the Prius. And I do like hatches.
I may put this up against the I4 Fusion...though the Fusion has Sync. :shades:
After some months and millions of miles of driving I'd expect the Insight II to be just at or just below the HCH real world numbers of 43-45 mpg day-in and day-out.
Now even if the Insight II does 'only' get 42-43 mpg overall it will exceed the FFH values overall by 10% or so. However the key point is that it will cost $8000 - $10000 less!!! The two vehicles are not targetted toward the same demographic segments.
The Insight IMO will be a HUGE hit and put a real hurtin' on GM and Ford and Toyota and Mazda and Nissan because it will hit them squarely in the middle of their compact car segment where the Corolla, Focus/Fiesta, Sentra, Accent, Mazda3 and Cobalt live. Honda's gain in the Insight II will come at the expense of these non-hybrids, not the Prius or FFH or TCH.
And no, the Insight will not put much hurt on the ICE compact sales, because while it is the cheapest hybrid, it still costs more than a Corolla or Sentra or Accent. You can buy a lot of gas with the difference in prices. In addition, there are at best only 100,000 available for US buyers. It's another choice and choice is good.
The Insight is a good compromise from a real car, I admit, for those that don't mind the skinny tires and SLOW acceleration (0-60 mph in about 11 seconds, a snail's pace). The Fusion Hybrid is a real car, not wimpy.
kdhyspyder also said "The Insight IMO will be a HUGE hit and put a real hurtin' on GM and Ford and Toyota and Mazda and Nissan because it will hit them squarely in the middle of their compact car segment where the Corolla, Focus/Fiesta, Sentra, Accent, Mazda3 and Cobalt live. Honda's gain in the Insight II will come at the expense of these non-hybrids, not the Prius or FFH or TCH. "
Actually, you can get a new Sentra right now for $10,000, half the price of an Insight. Comparably equipped, the Sentra with automatic and air, will come in at about $13,000, much cheaper than a maybe-$20,000 Insight.
Still, as Ford's Fusion Hybrid deserves the most credit here for how they are stomping the Camry Hybrid, Honda and Toyota are providing the Insight and Prius that are cheaper to buy than a Fusion Hybrid, so kudos to them. The winner will be the consumer.
All that being said, I'd still rather just buy a 4-cylinder Fusion with automatic and get my 33 MPG EPA hiway mileage, and save the $7,000 into a CD, the diff from a comparably equipped Fusion 4-cylinder and its Hybrid cousin. For some, they will want a hybrid, and if you do over 15,000 miles per year, you can make the difference up. However, with a hybrid, you will sacrifice braking, steering, and some safety performance with all those expensive, heavy batteries under your butt. With the addtion of direct injection and start/stop tech in a standard Fusion, you can boost the MPG another 10% anyway for an additional $900 of equipment, so hybrids just aren't the future for me.
$13000 Sentra's are loss leaders at best. That's not truly indicative of the market price for this model. If so that would put the Versa well under $10000... Sorry can't buy it.
Bottom line, if a consumer can live with snail-slow acceleration in the Insight/Prius, either one, then those might be a good choice. The Fusion Hybrid (191 HP, 3700 lbs) accelerates 0-60 mph in about the same time as my '05 Freestyle (203 HP, 3900 lbs), which is 8.5 seconds, instead of the slow 10 or 11 seconds it takes an Insight/Prius to meander to 60 mph. Also, the Fusion Hybrid will handle best.
The subject of this thread is the Fusion Hyb. It will come in at $27,000, so people are going to have to add a lot to the normal Fusion's (comparably equipped) 4-cyl version coming in at a mere $20,000. This is somewhat of a problem for me, but not for many people who crave hybrids. The Prius/Insight discussion gives us some perspective on what people are willing to pay extra for all those batteries and electric motors in addition to a gas engine and transmission and extra computers to run it all and the extra weight, performance penalties.. whew!
Your perception of the market is off, sorry. The Insight II is a Honda Fit with a $1500 hybrid option. The Honda Fit was sold out and oversubscribed @ $17000 MSRP until the recession hit us over the head. A $1500 option for 42-45 mpg day-in and day-out is a small upcharge and it fits ( ewwww ) right into the expectations of that buying segment.
Yes if you look at the price through the eyes of the most hardnosed frugal buyer that won't buy unless the final price is sweating blood then yes the Insight @ $18500 is out of the question. But this is a HUGE HUGE market and if the Fit can be oversubscribed at $17000 MSRP the Insight II will also.....when the market recovers of course.
Back to the FFH. This is the same good situation that Toyota has found itself in with the TCH. Fusion buyers range from $19000 to $30000. In this range there are enough who want to spend less on fuel to support the FFH. All buyers? Of course not. But there are enough.
The good press that the FFH and Ford are getting will drive even more into the stores. Those that would consider a TCH at $27000 ( a very typical Toyota buyer ) will also shop this new guy on the block to see if the reports are true. You're viewing the pricing from the pov of a frugal I4 buyer looking to keep the cost of the vehicle as low as possible and still get decent fuel economy. Now look at it from the pov of a V6 buyer who wants some amenities, in fact would never drive or buy a base model, and normally expects to pay $25000 - $30000 for the vehicle. Now the FFH looks like a bargain. Look at it from the pov of one of the millions of Explorer owners who are now ready to dump their SUV that got 17 mpg. Those buyers always spent $30000+ for their wheels. Now for $30000 they get a loaded FFH and 38 mpg? They're in heaven.
But it's a HUGE, HUGE market with a wide variety of price/value points.
I think you're missing something here....if someone is looking for a V6, many are looking for power in most cases. Another large portion are looking for the artificial self-worth that comes from a "V6" badge. How many out of those two groups would consider a "greenie weenie" hybrid powertrain? THat is how some people think of hybrids still, you know (especially some of the ones who want that V6 badge).
Admittedly, the rest, who are getting the V6 simply because that's the highest line trim out there would happily consider a hybrid powertrain as opposed to the V6, especially if the Hybrid trim matches the highest line as far as available options.
In summary, the typical Fusion Hybrid buyer will see its relatively slow accel as acceptable, looking for a good handling, robost hybrid with great MPG.
That's where you err on the side of too little flexibility. This is a huge and diverse market. You are trying to pigeon hole everyone into tiny little places. I've been selling these since 2000. I've met thousands of real and potential buyers. There is no single size that fits all buyers. One of the reasons that some well-to-do people remain well-to-do is that they don't waste money unnecessarily. Getting a nice vehicle with nice amenities that also saves 50% of the monthly gas bill is a choice many many make. Some are just against paying Big Oil and the Mideast more more money than they have to pay. Some like the greenie aspect. But these buyers will not generally buy an econo-box or a strippie I4. They are used to nicer things and they are willing to pay for them.
For whatever reason, when these buyers opt to choose a hybrid then $27000 is a bargain, $30000 is a normal to lower-than-normal price.
I agree that it's a huge and diverse market, but in that market, the hybrids, while growing, are still a relative niche. Of course, when you get right down to it, every trim of every model is its own little niche (which fits in its own little pigeonhole with a few people) but that's beyond the scope of this thread.
Some are just against paying Big Oil and the Mideast more more money than they have to pay. Some like the greenie aspect. But these buyers will not generally buy an econo-box or a strippie I4. They are used to nicer things and they are willing to pay for them.
Granted. In fact, I think I mentioned that myself. But you've got whole other market segments that aren't even going to consider a hybrid, unless maybe it's a Corvette Hybrid. Or maybe a Camaro or Mustang Hybrid. Or something else with a lot of V6 badges, that go 0-60 in 7 seconds or less, with a cat-back exhaust and a grumble under the hood. That's just life.
Then you have the others who like the general idea, but just decided that it isn't right for their driving style right now. Like me.
Strippie I-4? You can comparably equip a Fusion I-4 with automatic, air, traction control, etc., and still come out $7,000 ahead of a similarly equipped Hybrid Fusion. To me, thats too much, economically speaking. For some other people that think with their toenails, it might make sense. In reality, it only makes sense if you drive a lot of miles per year, or you want to stick it to the Mideast terrorists and/or Chavez, both good reasons really.
So, if you want to strap 400 lbs of batteries to your butt and pay $7,000 for the privilege, be my guest. I'm sure there will be some.
But since this is such a huge and diverse market there are also those buyers who hate Big Oil, hate the oil producers, want a loaded vehicle with very good power but excellent fuel economy, want to leave a smaller carbon footprint, love the idea of promoting new technology, are willing to give up some power for a lower overall cost, etc.
All these variations are part of the buying public. You two may fall in the first grouping. There are however lots of buyers, enough to over-subscribe the vehicles, that fall into the second grouping. This is the brilliant marketing discovery that Toyota and Honda and Ford have made. There's money to be made here and in the end that's all that counts. This is just a business with the intention to make money and survive into the future.
Oh, I wouldn't say I'm in that group...if my driving habits were different and I drove more city, I'd certainly consider a hybrid..I am a gadget-head. But I'd want a bigger MPG increase than I'm currently going to get with 90%+ highway driving, before I shell out the extra up-front money that a hybrid would cost, that's all. Reasonable request. Like I said before, they're not a cure all and they aren't for everyone.
You know what would be interesting? A web-app where people can plug in the models they're considering, and their driving habits (city% and hwy%, miles per year) and their local gas prices, and it would give them an approximation of their fuel costs per year for each vehicle. Come to think of it, shouldn't be real hard, either...some of the guys at work may be able to throw something together.