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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid

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Comments

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes you're right on that web app... I have one on my Excel archives.

    The inputs needed are
    Actual aquisition cost..
    Rebates or Tax Credits if any
    Local Taxes and Fees
    Insurance
    Est Maintenance

    Length of ownership in mo's or yrs
    Monthly or annual mileage driven

    Cost of fuel with an escalator for the length of ownership, then averaged. If you go to GasBuddy.com or EIA.doe.gov you can get a feel for where the price of gasoline is going and create an inflation factor. My own is $.50 per gallon per year. 2008 was an extreme aberation on both sides, top and bottom.

    Fuel Economy, EPA and best guesstimate on real world circumstances.

    RESALE VALUE!!!!
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    kdhspyder said: "Yes there are certainly those that will not look at the FFH for a variety of reasons, not as much power as the V6, antipathy against the idea of hybrids, fear, normal reticence toward changes, etc. "

    I'm not in that group, as you accused me of. The group I'm in says why pay $7,000 more for the batteries/electrics in a Fusion Hyb than a comparably equipped plain Fusion that still gets 33 MPG hiway. My group also doesn't like the decrease in braking performance, handling, and steering from hauling around the extra 400 lbs of batteries/electrics over a plain Fusion. My group also doesn't put on over 15,000 miles per year, which means its very difficult to recoup the extra $7,000 cost sooner than about 8 years.
  • Well then don't buy the FFH! It is not for you (or your "group."). But please understand that some of us are not figuring things the way you do, and "difficult to recoup the extra $7,000" may not be part of the buying decision. You buy a car for the reasons you lay out, but you must realize that other people buy cars for reasons that may not fit how you calculate things. Enjoy your 33 mpg Fusion--it's a great car--but not everything can be broken down to cost per mile, and anyway not everyone agrees how to calculate that. A simple statement that you have looked at the pros and cons and made your decision will suffice. It doesn't matter if I don't agree with your calculations. Once you decide, who cares if I don't share your view?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    You know, that's really something the Feds should take up, maybe as part of fueleconomy.gov or something. You know if one of the manufacturers does it it's going to be rigged. Maybe we can get Edmunds to do it. Nexpart and Nexcat are pay-for-play so we couldn't realistically do it.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    gregg_vw said "Well then don't buy the FFH! It is not for you (or your "group."). "

    Thank-you! I'm free now, because of your permission.
  • bobgwtwbobgwtw Member Posts: 187
    Seems to me everyone's leaving one very important factor out of these discussions - depreciation or residual value. Depreciation is the largest single cost of owning a car; and so far the hybrid's are depreciating at a significantly lower rate than the gassers.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes this is true. It's one of the key costs in owning any vehicle. It's why back in post #202 I emphasized 'RESALE VALUE'. Depending on how long one keeps the vehicle a good portion of the 'hybid premium' is recovered upon resale. OTOH if the vehicles are kept for a long period of time like 10-12 years or until they are run into the ground then there is no 'recovery of the hybrid premium' ..but.. the savings in fuel costs over that 12 yr period are greater than the extra paid upfront.

    Then there is the ridiculous situation of last summer where 1 y.o. hybrids were selling at higher prices than NEW hybrids at MSRP. Not only was there no depreciation but after one year there was significan't appreciation. Highly unusual? Yes but that was the situation for the better part of 3-4 months.
  • you are welcome...don't mention it
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    The Milian HB uses only batteries while you stay under 47 mph. Does anyone know how many miles you can drive in this mode before the gas engine kicks in to recharge the batteries? I read somewhere that it is only 1-3 miles. If this is true then isn't sort of a joke about getting great carbon free electric mileage?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That's not exactly true. It is *possible* to go up to 47 mph but you have to be really careful. A little extra throttle and the gas engine has to kick in. Remember that these are not electric vehicles and don't have the battery power necessary to run for long distances. The battery allows the gas engine to be turned off at slower speeds or while stopped. The only thing a hybrid buys you is better mpg than a non-hybrid. It is NOT a substitute for a gasoline engine.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    Hi, I am curious what happens in a HB vehicle when you start it in the freezing cold and turn on the heater. I assume the gas engine immediately kicks in? Does the same thing occur during the summer when you turn on the AC?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    This varies from vehicle to vehicle and generation to generation. In the newer ones the AC is electric so it doesn't require the ICE. In older ones it does require the ICE to be running. Heat is probably different since the engine retains heat even when it's not running, but it could be programmed to start the ICE if heat was needed.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    Regarding bigt's question about AC and heater usage, to be sure using those any one of those will cause the engine to run more, reducing overall MPG. Even if the heater uses an electrical heating element, that uses energy. I don't know if the engine will simply automatically start up as soon as you flip the AC or heater switch. Good question, though.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    What does the FEH system do when the heat is demanded? I'd guess that the heat comes from the ICE does it not? The new technology for the hybrids uses electric AC so there is no need for the ICE to be 'ON' unless the demand for the AC has drawn down the battery to the point that the ICE has to jump in and recharge the lost juice.

    To reply to the OP about the heater I'd guess that the ICE kicks on pretty quickly after it warms up in order to heat the cabin. Actually all vehicles lose about 10% of their nominal fuel economy rating in the winter because the ICE has to run more frequently. This is especially true of the hybrids. The ICE has to warm the fluids, warm the cabin - continuously and warm up the catalytic converter. The ICE has a LOT of work to do in wintertime. Thus fuel economy suffers.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    kdhspyder, Your last post demonstrated a non-engineer viewpoint. Much lack of understanding of energy conservation and thermodynamics. I hope those reading this thread will keep in mind its a little like a pharmacist trying to talk like an opthamologist, he can try but it probably won't come out right.

    Like I said in the other thread, I'll bet you're a capable salesman, but this is just not your area.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,669
    ?? Coldcranker, I don't see the problem with his post. Nothing worth pointing out, that's for sure.
  • ALL cars (hybrid and non-hybrid) get less mpg as the temps drop. Takes them longer to get to optimum operating temp and stay there) and all moving components are affected. You really see the mpgs plummet when the temp stays below 0F, like it has here recently. Still, you'd be doing better than everyone else in a hybrid.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    Most of the MPG loss in cold weather is due to stiffer tire rubber and higher viscosity oil before operating temp is reach. The normal thermodynamic waste heat from an ICE is always there, cold temps or not, and they don't make the engine waste any more energy cold than hot, as kdhspyder had said earlier.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    While you pretend to be conversant in auto technology you have a huge blind spot where the hybrids are concerned. You don't seem to be aware of, or don't accept, the fact that the key to saving fuel is not burning any. This is why the hybrids have higher fuel efficiency ratings. The ICE in the hybrid is able to turn off or turn down to idle or run at it's most efficient state as demand requires. The normal ICE has to run all the time.

    However in wintertime the ICE in the hybrid has to run more frequently for the reasons I noted above. There is nothing surprising about this if you've ever owned one as many here have. But to make statements such as yours above indicates that you've never put much - if any - time behind the wheel of a hybrid. Thus your assumptions are at best guesses - and they're wrong. There are 10 yrs of driving experiences all over the internet. You need to leave the 20th Century and bring yourself up-to-date. C'mon ol' timer. This is a new era, it's not that scary.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Keep the "opinions" coming Bob. Sometimes Engineers (or even car nuts like Car and Driver) get stuck on raw data. All things being equal, the single most important input on maximizing the hybrid FE in my non-engineering opinion (I am an engineer, but not an expert in automotive like the many participants here) is the driver.

    Most people don't want to hear all the arguments for the details about the tech but simply want to know does it work and will I be able to make it work like it's supposed it.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    Found this article. Interesting that the gas engine always starts in a Hybrid just for a second or two to perform a series of computer checks. I am getting close but it is tough when I look at all of the goodies coming out in the 2010 MKZ. However there is a great Hybrid appeal when you look at all of the trips down the block, across the street, and the DC stop and go. Getting close to the pre-order!

    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ford-escape.htm
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    kdhspyder, You don't read and/or comprehend my posts. I'm saying a hybrid works best in high-usage, high-mileage situations, by far. This is economics. You have to pay many thousands of dollars extra for the hybrid electric motors/batteries. Also, you don't seem to realize what a basic ICE can do with MPG if you add an efficient tranny, direct injection, raise compression, reduce internal friction, reduce engine size, add an aluminum roof, etc. Maybe the best way to explain it to a car salesman like yourself (because I give up) is to just refer you to the UCS article: UCS report showing non-hybrid tech can increase MPG -- click here

    I have nothing against car salesman like kdhspyder in general, its just that you can't argue on the facts with many of them, as I've seen over the years, and they aren't automotive engineers. No surprise kdhspyder doesn't read or comprehend my posts here.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    I bet it does not have these. Read that Mecury is expecting the HB Milan to be 6% of Milan sales. I wonder if I really want to give up all the MKZ luxury items...
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    bigt, Great HowStuffWorks article there. Very clear. Looks like the Escape's system adds 500 lbs to a normal Escape. Wow. I think the Fusion Hybrid only plumps up by 400 lbs, so there is some progress there at least.

    I hope you do order one, because you sound like you don't mind paying the extra cash for the hybrid's electric motors and batteries, and I'll bet you wouldn't mind reducing the foreign oil dependency in North America. All great reasons to buy a hybrid if you've got the bucks.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    All of those advances in the ICE which you note are being worked on in parallel at testing facilities all over the world. They are part of the normal curve of improvement in drivetrains.

    Yes they will all work to improve efficencies and fuel economy. But on top of all these improvements if you add an efficient hybrid system it's like multiplying the results by a coefficient of 1.3 to 1.4.

    The new FFH and the new G3 Prius and the Lexus 250h are all examples of this. The ICE improvements, tranny efficiencies and new designs are then improved by 30-40% by the addition of the respective hybrid systems.

    This is your blind spot that you continue to ignore.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    kdhspyder, You miss the point yet again. The UCS article I cited with a link in my post above.explains tech that is here now, most of which has been here for the last 10 years or so. Its not the "normal curve of improvement" as you put it. Something that is in common current usage, and has been for years, is old stuff. Just refer to the UCS article and I won't argue with you anymore. Futility.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,142
    Guys -
    Take it elsewhere.... like, to another site. No one here wants to watch you trade barbs. We're interested in the 2010 hybrid Fusion/Milan.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? [email protected] - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    kirstie_h, I wasn't the one trading barbs. I was pointing out facts that are relevant to the Fusion Hybrid. I don't appreciate your accusatory statement, and you owe me an apology.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,669
    Coldcranker, I tried to drop a hint, you didn't get it, now your going off on Kirstie. She's exactly right, the recent series of posts with you two had very little to do the FFHs, more about who did or didn't understand this or that. Not relevant here.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,142
    I don't, but if you want to discuss, you are welcome to email me any time.

    This forum is for discussion of the upcoming Fusion/Milan hybrid only.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? [email protected] - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • It doesn't help to be thin-skinned on these forums. Occasionally, I have gotten reprimanded for an interchange on one forum or another. Of course I thought I was "right," but I also know that if a moderator is saying "hey guys, take it outside," that is a signal for me to let it be.

    No moderator owes anyone an apology for trying to take care of their responsibilities here. And all of us must realize from time to time that print messages without facial expression, intonation and other body language is easily misconstrued. Most times, it is not worth trying to "set straight." Don't take it personally, but do let it go.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    kirstie_h can't name any instances of me "trading barbs" as she put it. I can disagree with anyone posting on this forum. Its my right, and I'll do it. If we all agreed, it wouldn't be any fun. But I guess I could put a smiley-face icon on the end of every sentence..... or not.

    She is right this is about Fusion Hybrids. I will therefore go back to my question that I had before the Toyota salesman kdhsypder starting getting Toyota-selling into these Fusion Hybrid discussions (I'm hoping someone has some concrete answers, not sales-talk fluff):

    I was wondering why the Camry hybrid has such pathetic MPG compared to the Fusion Hybrid. It could be a more powerful, more advanced battery pack, and better engine control software in the Fusion vs. the less capable Camry. Specifics would be nice.

    Anybody have any idea why the Camry gets beat so badly in this critical area for a hybrid? How did Ford engineers create a superior product?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    The next-generation hybrid system features:

    New 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine (155 horsepower/136 lb.-ft. of torque) running the proven Atkinson cycle mated to an electronically-controlled continuously variable transmission or e-CVT.

    Intake Variable Cam Timing (iVCT), which allows the vehicle to more seamlessly transition from gas to electric mode and vice-versa. The spark and cam timing are varied according to the engine load to optimize efficiency and emissions.

    Enhanced electronic throttle control reduces airflow on shutdowns, reducing fueling needs on restarts.

    Wide-band lambda sensor analyzes the air-fuel ratio and adjusts the lean/rich mixture accordingly to keep the system in balance and to minimize emissions.
    A new smaller, lighter nickel-metal hydride battery has been optimized to produce 20 percent more power. Improved chemistry allows the battery to be run at a higher temperature and it is cooled using cabin air.

    An added variable voltage converter boosts the voltage to the traction battery to operate the motor and generator more efficiently.

    A new high-efficiency converter provides 14 percent increased output to accommodate a wider array of vehicle features.

    Smarter climate control system monitors cabin temperature and only runs the gas engine as needed to heat the cabin; it also includes an electric air conditioning compressor to further minimize engine use.

    The regenerative brake system captures the energy normally lost through friction in braking and stores it. Nearly 94 percent energy recovery is achieved by first delivering full regenerative braking followed by friction brakes during city driving.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • WyattNicholsWyattNichols Member Posts: 55
    Coldcranker...It is my understanding that the software that controls when the ICE cuts on and off has been improved in the Fusion. This way, the Fusion can run longer on the electric motor and it cuts off the ICE quicker when you take your foot off the gas. The Fusion might also get more energy from braking than the Camry.

    As far as the thread about when the Fusion will make it into the showrooms, does anyone know more than March, before April?

    WLN
  • Let it go. Your point is not worth it. Why do you have to be right to anyone else if you know you are? Someone asked you to move back to the forum topic. Please don't take it personally. There is nothing to defend.

    Now, back to the hybrids. Of course specifics would be nice, but really, it stands to reason. The Fusion set-up is several years newer. It should be better. The Camry mileage isn't "pathetic" by comparison. It is less, but Camry is soon due for a new generation that will likely leapfrog the Fusion when it comes out.

    Remember too, everything is a tradeoff. The Fusion has less hp than Camry, which probably helps with EPA mpg. It does have a more advanced battery pack and better engine control software. The Fusion is also 200-300 lbs heavier. Now, if you look at the real world test of the mid-size hybrids in C&D, the Fusion beat Camry in mpg, but not nearly by the gap EPA suggests. Some of that "gap softening" may be due to moving that extra baggage in real world comparison tests.

    Competition keeps the product developing steadily. It's great to see all these choices appearing with even more regularity.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,669
    You don't read what you write. Pure barb-trading here:

    "I have nothing against car salesman like kdhspyder in general, its just that you can't argue on the facts with many of them, as I've seen over the years, and they aren't automotive engineers. No surprise kdhspyder doesn't read or comprehend my posts here. "

    Not one word about the FFH.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    I was wondering why the Camry hybrid has such pathetic MPG compared to the Fusion Hybrid

    And this type of question leads people to talk about Toyota, not the Ford.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    It's a valid question though...how'd Ford top Camry so decisively? How will Toyota respond? They've just been SERIOUSLY one-uped, and the Fusion's numbers demand a response. So far all Toyota has done is try to corner the battery market to keep other hybrids down, at least that's my read. Now that Ford has proven that Toyota isn't necessarily the hybrid king anymore, what can Toyota do to respond to the Fusion?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    This discussion is for discussing the upcoming Fusion/Milan hybrid not Ford vs Toyota.

    Let's get back on track here please. Thanks for your cooperation and participation.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Actually, the comparisons are helpful, because these two cars will be competing.

    It's helpful for potential buyers to know about both the TCH and the FFH.

    In regard to "how did 'Yota get one-upped?" the answer is the model year.

    The technology in the TCH is about 4 years old, from road-testable car to now. That means the design took place longer ago than that.

    If Toyota wanted to do a whole brand-new TCH with the HSD technology they have right now which will be coming out in the new Prius, then the TCH would likely challenge or surpass the FFH.

    The FFH is impressive on it's own merits, however, Toyota's situation notwithstanding.

    They will certainly "steal" some sales from the TCH.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    This is not a "comparison" discussion, so let's not turn it into one, OK? That's not to say that references to other vehicles for comparison purposes are strictly out, but you DO see how easy it is to get off track.
  • WyattNicholsWyattNichols Member Posts: 55
    Oh, by the way!! Does anyone have a better estimate on the showroom date for the FFH than "March, before April"?

    Any estimates on the number available for the initial release, or with in the first few months?

    Wyatt
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yep Ford has new hybrid technology and a new ICE and new features. It should trump the existing models, that's what new models do. It's currently the leader with the the state of the art incorporated into it.

    Good job by Ford. At some time in the future some other vehicle makers will one-up Ford and the progress will continue onward.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The only thing I can add here is that the vehicle is not on the roads yet so all that anyone has to go by is the data that's been published and few tests. Most of these tests immediately draw comparos including Edmunds own. So that's what people are discussing.

    When the vehicles hit the roads and buyers begin to drive them the data should be more real world experiences. Then that's what people will be discussing.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    Found in the spec that the Milan does have heated seats. After this week in DC here I am not about to purchase anything that does not have that feature. I am also having a calc done about the trade between my 2007 mkz and the 2010 mkz.

    Where is the best place to sell a car these days?
  • milkman1milkman1 Member Posts: 80
    Do I have a blind spot here or is the 2010 Milan no longer on the Mercury site?

    Also, any idea when we can get some idea on the pricing and options on the fusion? I keep getting the idea they may be thinking about delaying production. We knew more about the 09 Mazda 6 by this point before it's release.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Fusion Hybrid winner over Camry Hybrid. Motor Trend Mag also chose the Fusion Hybrid over the Camry Hybrid. right along with Car and Driver..
    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/2010_f- ord_fusion_hybrid_short_take_road_test

    The Fusion already has a great reputation for reliability/quality/fit/finish. Now with this on top of it.. Fusion sales will increase in the coming years is my prediction. :shades:
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,669
    Only problem - sounds like limited volumes of the Fusion Hybrid will be available :mad:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Fusion sales should increase and rightfully so. But Ford is still severely limited by battery pack supply. That's why they are only offering them in limited 'hot spot markets'.

    Their new battery supplier has to get up and cranking soon, very soon.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    25,000 is not a small number - all things considered.
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