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Comments
ford (and everyone else) will have to catch up.
i am sure when ford was trying to sell a million f series in a year, hybrid battery numbers were not a big deal.
I love being on the leading(bleeding) edge!
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Not correct. Fact correction here, thats all, for our readers. gregg_vw, don't take this personally as you have in the past. Get over it. ....The EPA tests are real. The EPA MPG tests do take into account the extra mass naturally, and they also take into account aerodynamics, BTW I've noticed a lack of understanding of how to interpret the EPA MPG tests when evaluating the Fusion Hybrid vs. the Toyota Camry. Those EPA MPG tests consist of two representative cycles of driving: one city-style, and one mostly highway cruising. To compare car-to-car, one must use the same test for each car, and that same test is the EPA MPG test. For example, my 4,000 lb Freestyle can easily get 31 MPG when cruising steady at 52 mph. But, I can't say it "beat" a Ford Focus, just because the Focus driver had some stop-n-go mixed in and got 27 MPG. The same test. Key point.
I don't think he is brave or stupid. (At least not for that reason!) Car and Driver, and Motor Trend wring a vehicle out better than anybody could visiting a salesman and test driving the car around the block. I've often said, to really find the gems in car engineering out there, don't rely on how you felt the car was going over the speed bump outside the dealer's parking lot. Not a good indicator. Also, I think Edmunds said the Milan/Fusion Hybrid was pretty good, too.
That said, I doubt if the engine itself is really much more efficient than the Camry's gas engine, since I know Toyota put a lot into the efficiency there (same Atkinson, some internal ring friction/mass improvements, etc.). The iVCT or good lambda sensor are not unique to Ford either.
The part about the electronic amp drivers/convertors may be a more significant area for gain. As for the battery statements below, there may be some energy savings in those battery packs being able to receive a charge (from regen braking, etc.) more efficiently, so some of the battle involves not wasting energy when charging a battery. I've heard numbers like around 50% of the energy is lost to heat when charging a battery! Any gain there would be good. The 94% figure stated below is simply the amount of energy captured from braking before trying to stick the energy into the battery, so it is misleading a bit.
Maybe a lot of the secret of the Fusion Hybrid's success is in the statement below about the enhanced electronic throttle causing less fuel needed at startup. (Those Ford engineers are good.) I've always wondered about how much extra gas you waste by starting/stopping the engine over and over again. If the Fusion Hybrid gas engine had direct injection, then there might be another small gain in MPG at start-up. Speaking of all this Fusion Hybrid start/stop stuff, I know Toyota specifies 5w-30 engine oil in their hybrids, a thicker oil than the 5w-20 oil Toyota puts in their non-hybrid vehicles to prevent ring-sticking on start/stop cycles. Ford has typically been specifying 5w-20 in their vehicles, but I wonder if they are worried about warranty claims for sticking rings, too, in a start/stop engine like this.
explorerx4 said: "
The next-generation hybrid system features:
New 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine (155 horsepower/136 lb.-ft. of torque) running the proven Atkinson cycle mated to an electronically-controlled continuously variable transmission or e-CVT.
Intake Variable Cam Timing (iVCT), which allows the vehicle to more seamlessly transition from gas to electric mode and vice-versa. The spark and cam timing are varied according to the engine load to optimize efficiency and emissions.
Enhanced electronic throttle control reduces airflow on shutdowns, reducing fueling needs on restarts.
Wide-band lambda sensor analyzes the air-fuel ratio and adjusts the lean/rich mixture accordingly to keep the system in balance and to minimize emissions.
A new smaller, lighter nickel-metal hydride battery has been optimized to produce 20 percent more power. Improved chemistry allows the battery to be run at a higher temperature and it is cooled using cabin air.
An added variable voltage converter boosts the voltage to the traction battery to operate the motor and generator more efficiently.
A new high-efficiency converter provides 14 percent increased output to accommodate a wider array of vehicle features.
Smarter climate control system monitors cabin temperature and only runs the gas engine as needed to heat the cabin; it also includes an electric air conditioning compressor to further minimize engine use.
The regenerative brake system captures the energy normally lost through friction in braking and stores it. Nearly 94 percent energy recovery is achieved by first delivering full regenerative braking followed by friction brakes during city driving. "
According to this dealer, the tax credit is available if you buy or order a FFH by the dates mentioned in the news release.
I'm going back this weekend when I have more time to ask detailed questions about options. During the short visit yesterday, I told them more about the FFH than they told me.
Makes me curious about how our many Ford dealerships around here in the Denver area are doing with this Ford Fusion info. (BTW, I lived in Memphis as a kid from '68 to '73, as if anyone cared. ;-)
At most stores this will be a non-issue if they get one every 6 weeks or so. They can't run the store on one vehicle sale per month. The stores have to run on truck sales and non-hybrid Fusion sales and Escape sales.
There might be one person per store that has any interest to tie up his/her time to take an order for the one vehicle being made for them that month.
Does that 25,000 include the Milan as well? I might be interested, but have no interest in paying list price. Been burned on that before. So I will wait and see. If it sells out, fine. If not, I may buy one.
There may be loyal Ford tie hards that will pay more than MSRP. However this car is being added to a field where there is competition. When the TCH came out there was no other conventional looking hybrid competition out there (a lot are turned off by the Prius). TCH's are no longer going for MSRP. The pricing I have seen on the FFH, at least the loaded ones put it as high or higher then the TCH. While I will certainly consider the FFH on my next purchase I won't pay a $2K premium on it over the TCH, of which I know to be a dependable car over all (not just the hybrid system).
I would be ticked at Ford if I paid $2K too much for this and then prices dropped in 2 months. That's why a lot of people get ticked at the domesticas. Gouge you on a new hot product (like the PT Cruiser) and then in months start discounting them. It's not a hot market with cars period, and hybrids in general right now. If Ford starts making them and they don't move they will discount them.
Gas prices are inching back up. I bet back over 2 bucks in a few months.
I don't know why you think that's a domestic issue. The markup on a Nissan GT-R is over $50K. Highly desirable and rare imports get ADMs just like the "domesticas". Besides that, there is nothing that Ford can do about ADMs. Nothing whatsoever. It would be illegal for Ford to do anything to control the dealer's selling price. So blame the Ford dealers but not Ford. The imports may have more favorable franchise agreements in that arena but they are not immune.
If you can wait a bit, most all but truly exotic cars come back down to where more people will view the price as realistic. If dealers only have one FFH to begin with, of course many will tack on a premium. After all, it is rare a dealer gets to make much money off any new car sale (they count on used sales and service to keep the doors open). You want one under list, have patience.
The lowest prices are during the year end Holiday Season;
Immediately after Jan 1 prices begin to move back up again;
Prices normally peak somewhere around Memorial Day - July 4th, hold for a while;
Then they begin to decline again around Labor Day thru the Holidays......
......repeat again for the following year.
The Prius sales declined because they directed sales away from the US as the currency got weaker. They produced and sold just as many in 2008 as they did in 2007, they just didn't ship as many to the US. All the hybrid vehicle makers are currently limited by the lack of availability of batteries and hybrid components. With the current weak auto market this is not so much of an issue any longer though as gagrice noted.
I don't think Ford was clear whether that 25000 unit figure included both the FFH and MMH or not. I'm going to guess that it does.
Fusion drives better. A car is, after all, a driving machine.
OK, let's just get it out there: The 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid is the best gasoline-electric hybrid yet.
What makes it best is a top-drawer blend of an already very good midsize sedan with the industry's smoothest, best-integrated gas-electric power system. It's so well-done that you have to look to the $107,000 Lexus LS 600h hybrid to come close.
Fusion's $28,000 starting price is more or less in reach, the driving feel is good, and the interior has a premium look and feel.
There are three facets to consider in evaluating a gasoline-electric hybrid: the underlying vehicle itself, the hybrid system and the mileage.
Assuming the preproduction Fusion hybrid test car was representative — Ford says it was — the Fusion's scores in those three categories are good, great and adequate, but potentially, very good.
The Toyota Prius crowd will protest. Prius is lower-priced, has about the same room inside, has a handy hatchback configuration, gets better mileage — and most of those attributes could improve when the 2010 Prius goes on sale in a few months — so how could Fusion be the best hybrid?
Simple. Fusion drives better. A car is, after all, a driving machine. Brownie points for saving somewhat more fuel or offering a cargo-friendly hatchback, but driving feel is most important.
And there, Fusion is without equal among hybrids.
If you want to be one of the first to own one, you may have to pay MSRP. Or wait and see if the price drops - maybe it will, maybe it won't. It's a crap shoot. Personally I think enough people will want one not because of the hybrid label but just because they want a fusion and it happens to be the most fuel efficient model. As opposed to Prius buyers who are either looking for the hybrid label or seeking maximum fuel economy.
Wow - are you dizzy from all that spinning? Sales were down, so they shipped less. Not the other way around.
Went back to the Ford dealer today to see a model with the same paint and interior as the one pre-ordered. The dealer said he has been given 2/16/09 as the ETA for the first FFH. I got the impression, he wasn't very optimistic about that date.
That sounds much sooner than Ford news releases indicate. If the ETA is that close, then the cars should be leaving the factory (in Mexico??) soon.
:lemon: I hope not!!
Absolutely in 4th Qtr sales were down because the entire industry was down, no question there. That wasn't particular to hybrids or to any one model but rather to the entire industry. But in 2nd and 3rd Qtrs they gave up a huge amount of sales because they couldn't meet the demand...or chose not to supply the demand.
Even though there might be tax credits for buying certain cars, or other tax credits coming out of the stimulus package, a decrease in the supply of fuel efficient cars because the government is buying them, will be a tax on the ones of us who want to buy similar cars.
Am I reading this right?
As to what the dealers charge... that depends. Some will likely charge significant addendums of as much as $2000 to $5000. And with only limited supply and rave reviews there will be buyers at those inflated prices. That's exactly why the practice occurs. Supply is matched with demand via the pricing mechanism.
For those who won't or can't pay full MSRP plus addendum, they will patiently wait until the price falls into an acceptable range. Again supply and demand.
How can they then tack on to this?
Has anyone researched the battery performance degradation with hybrids when operating in a cold environment? What kind of mileage can I expect when driving at 20 F?
By the way - I had a similar experience as an earlier post. I tried contacting a local dealer with questions. They had very little information to offer.
Figures for the 2010 Fusion, 2009 Prius, 2009 Taurus
Front Shoulder Room 57.4 in. 55 in. 57.8 in.
Rear Shoulder Room 56.5 in. 52.9 in. 57.6 in.
Front Hip Room 54 in. 51 in. 53.7 in.
It may well be, but until they hit the road and are driven by consumers instead of a very few automotive journalist, only time will tell.
As for "driving experience" people that own a hybrid to truly maximize their FE will never push the FFH to the limit that will make it noticable over the TCH. Does the TCH handle like a sporting sedan? No it does not. Does anyone really want to drive it that way? Only a few. And a "few" won't make a big difference in the overall public opinion.
I think the FFE will be a great car and a hit for Ford. I'm just saying to say that it is without equal before it's in the showroom is BS
The Taurus of course is a large car by EPA standards and your standards as well (even though its interior width is closer to a mid-size, as you point out by your figures). Large cars used to more often be 59" - 62" in shoulder room, but the Taurus definitely has the volume and legroom of a large car regardless. The author was merely pointing out that the Prius and Fusion are in the same size class. You are pointing out how greater interior width can impart a greater feeling of roominess. Maybe that's why the cockpit of the Taurus feels a bit cramped compared to say, the DTS or Lucerne or Crown Vic (still all large cars nonetheless).
As you know, the Ford hybrid models are identical to the non-hybrids in interior room. I hope that the next iteration of the Fusion (fall 2012?) includes more rear seat room. A car of that size could have more leg room without increasing the exterior dimensions.
wvgasugy said "Does the TCH handle like a sporting sedan? No it does not. Does anyone really want to drive it that way? " ... Don't forget emergency evasive handling ability. It should be there, and cars that do it better than others can save your neck. It has little to do with driving like Mario Andretti, although feeling that is satisfying.
This all may be VERY important because taxi companies in NY would love a Fusion Hybrid, as they have liked the Escape Hybrid, but they look at interior roominess and the ability to stuff a lot of passengers in the back seat. Prius taxis are common, but they give up the ability to put chubby people in the back, with luggage.
Another thing that gets dropped in all these discussions about the Fusion Hybrid over other hybrids like the Prius or Insight is safety. The extra crumple zones on a Fusion Hybrid are going to protect you more, something many people actually think about when comparing these hybrids. Yet another advantage goes to the Fusion Hybrid.
Actually my name is Joe. So I guess that makes me just an average nonautomotive engineer. I don't expect to change your opinion, no one on here has been able to do that. It is difficult to argue with an expert. Anyway, the point being I drove a TCH for 67,000 miles. I am not concerned about the handling. No I did not drive curves at 70mph on 2 lane roads like I did with my Vette, my (2) 300ZX's, my Audi TT, my 350Z and lastly my FX45. I make that point just to show that I have driven decent handling sporting cars before my TCH. Will the FFH be a better handling car than the TCH? I have no doubt it will. Will it be significantly enough so that I should be concerned with the TCH. NO. That's all most people want to know.
Did I ever feel the TCH was unsafe? NO. It was a great dependable car.
The FFH is not even on the road yet but you are willing to consider it as exceptionally better than the TCH. I'm simply saying that a few journalist that have a heavy bias towards fast good handling cars will always lean towards them in a comparison. Even when that comparison is about cars intended to be economy cars.
Most people read these forums to get an idea about how they will like a car they may be considering. Yes your technical arguments are probably correct, but no one really cares that much. They just enjoy jerking your chain.
And what are you saying the Fusion Hybrid is "not on the road"? Its out there being evaluated by skilled people now. Its on the road. Thats better than consumers who won't be able to thoroughly test the performance. Just like its wiser to trust a doctor's medical opinion over your barber, leave it to the experts in their field.
Don't take any of this as an insult, because every adult is an expert at something, so I'm sure you're a Joe who knows his stuff about whatever it is you do.