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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid

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  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    My dealer said the pre-order is at MSRP. I bet once they are out in the dealers they will go for more than that. This is why this week, I am diving in!

    There may be loyal Ford tie hards that will pay more than MSRP. However this car is being added to a field where there is competition. When the TCH came out there was no other conventional looking hybrid competition out there (a lot are turned off by the Prius). TCH's are no longer going for MSRP. The pricing I have seen on the FFH, at least the loaded ones put it as high or higher then the TCH. While I will certainly consider the FFH on my next purchase I won't pay a $2K premium on it over the TCH, of which I know to be a dependable car over all (not just the hybrid system).

    I would be ticked at Ford if I paid $2K too much for this and then prices dropped in 2 months. That's why a lot of people get ticked at the domesticas. Gouge you on a new hot product (like the PT Cruiser) and then in months start discounting them. It's not a hot market with cars period, and hybrids in general right now. If Ford starts making them and they don't move they will discount them.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    A Fusion HB at 32K or a fully loaded new MKZ for just a little more. Hmm...

    Gas prices are inching back up. I bet back over 2 bucks in a few months.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I would be ticked at Ford if I paid $2K too much for this and then prices dropped in 2 months. That's why a lot of people get ticked at the domesticas. Gouge you on a new hot product (like the PT Cruiser) and then in months start discounting them.

    I don't know why you think that's a domestic issue. The markup on a Nissan GT-R is over $50K. Highly desirable and rare imports get ADMs just like the "domesticas". Besides that, there is nothing that Ford can do about ADMs. Nothing whatsoever. It would be illegal for Ford to do anything to control the dealer's selling price. So blame the Ford dealers but not Ford. The imports may have more favorable franchise agreements in that arena but they are not immune.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    And really, anyone who pays over list for either foreign or domestic is doing so because they want to be first out of the gate with a scarce product, and the premium is worth it to them...or they wouldn't pay it.

    If you can wait a bit, most all but truly exotic cars come back down to where more people will view the price as realistic. If dealers only have one FFH to begin with, of course many will tack on a premium. After all, it is rare a dealer gets to make much money off any new car sale (they count on used sales and service to keep the doors open). You want one under list, have patience.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    So if you pre-order the most you will pay is MSRP correct? Is that a bad thing? I guess it depends on if gas prices, if they are high than the hybrids will fly off the lot. If not perhaps you will get a deal on them. In the end I guess it is if you want to be first on the block!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Hybrid sales always follow the trend of fuel prices. Fuel prices www.gasbuddy.com move in a very well-known curve throughout the year.

    The lowest prices are during the year end Holiday Season;
    Immediately after Jan 1 prices begin to move back up again;
    Prices normally peak somewhere around Memorial Day - July 4th, hold for a while;
    Then they begin to decline again around Labor Day thru the Holidays......

    ......repeat again for the following year.

    The Prius sales declined because they directed sales away from the US as the currency got weaker. They produced and sold just as many in 2008 as they did in 2007, they just didn't ship as many to the US. All the hybrid vehicle makers are currently limited by the lack of availability of batteries and hybrid components. With the current weak auto market this is not so much of an issue any longer though as gagrice noted.

    I don't think Ford was clear whether that 25000 unit figure included both the FFH and MMH or not. I'm going to guess that it does.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    How about "The 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid is the best gasoline-electric hybrid yet" as praise?

    Fusion drives better. A car is, after all, a driving machine.

    OK, let's just get it out there: The 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid is the best gasoline-electric hybrid yet.

    What makes it best is a top-drawer blend of an already very good midsize sedan with the industry's smoothest, best-integrated gas-electric power system. It's so well-done that you have to look to the $107,000 Lexus LS 600h hybrid to come close.

    Fusion's $28,000 starting price is more or less in reach, the driving feel is good, and the interior has a premium look and feel.

    There are three facets to consider in evaluating a gasoline-electric hybrid: the underlying vehicle itself, the hybrid system and the mileage.

    Assuming the preproduction Fusion hybrid test car was representative — Ford says it was — the Fusion's scores in those three categories are good, great and adequate, but potentially, very good.

    The Toyota Prius crowd will protest. Prius is lower-priced, has about the same room inside, has a handy hatchback configuration, gets better mileage — and most of those attributes could improve when the 2010 Prius goes on sale in a few months — so how could Fusion be the best hybrid?

    Simple. Fusion drives better. A car is, after all, a driving machine. Brownie points for saving somewhat more fuel or offering a cargo-friendly hatchback, but driving feel is most important.

    And there, Fusion is without equal among hybrids.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Pre-ordering doesn't guarantee anything. The price is still up to you and the dealer. I don't expect dealers to be asking more than MSRP but who knows.

    If you want to be one of the first to own one, you may have to pay MSRP. Or wait and see if the price drops - maybe it will, maybe it won't. It's a crap shoot. Personally I think enough people will want one not because of the hybrid label but just because they want a fusion and it happens to be the most fuel efficient model. As opposed to Prius buyers who are either looking for the hybrid label or seeking maximum fuel economy.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    The Prius sales declined because they directed sales away from the US as the currency got weaker. They produced and sold just as many in 2008 as they did in 2007, they just didn't ship as many to the US.

    Wow - are you dizzy from all that spinning? Sales were down, so they shipped less. Not the other way around.
  • Update:

    Went back to the Ford dealer today to see a model with the same paint and interior as the one pre-ordered. The dealer said he has been given 2/16/09 as the ETA for the first FFH. I got the impression, he wasn't very optimistic about that date.

    That sounds much sooner than Ford news releases indicate. If the ETA is that close, then the cars should be leaving the factory (in Mexico??) soon.

    :lemon: I hope not!!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Did you forget what happened in April through Sept when there were none anywhere in NA? During those months they could have sold twice as much as what they did sell but they didn't ship them here. Instead of meeting the demand in NA they kept the vehicles at home or sent them to Europe where there were better returns. In fact in 2nd and 3rd Qtrs when the entire continent was sold out sales were still down. That wasn't from lack of demand that was from lack of supply.

    Absolutely in 4th Qtr sales were down because the entire industry was down, no question there. That wasn't particular to hybrids or to any one model but rather to the entire industry. But in 2nd and 3rd Qtrs they gave up a huge amount of sales because they couldn't meet the demand...or chose not to supply the demand.
  • A few minutes ago, I heard a story on NPR about the government's mandate to buy more energy efficient cars, many of which will be hybrids. Where will they get enough cars to meet the demand? Will it increase the costs of hybrids? Will the dealers charge more than the MRSP?

    Even though there might be tax credits for buying certain cars, or other tax credits coming out of the stimulus package, a decrease in the supply of fuel efficient cars because the government is buying them, will be a tax on the ones of us who want to buy similar cars.

    Am I reading this right?
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,693
    I think you're exactly right. When the tax credits were available for the Prius, that amount often seemed to get added to the price. Dealers often benefitted the most.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The full tax credit for the FFH and MMH will be available through 3-31. After that the credit is cut in half to about $1700 through 9-30.

    As to what the dealers charge... that depends. Some will likely charge significant addendums of as much as $2000 to $5000. And with only limited supply and rave reviews there will be buyers at those inflated prices. That's exactly why the practice occurs. Supply is matched with demand via the pricing mechanism.

    For those who won't or can't pay full MSRP plus addendum, they will patiently wait until the price falls into an acceptable range. Again supply and demand.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    I like to think of it as the PT Barnum Syndrome. That and the inherent knee jerk reaction Americans have toward the price of gas. No wonder the US is in such financial trouble. I don't think they will build enough of the FFH to satisfy the gotta have it first crowd. That means the end of the year before supply catches demand. Depending on the battery situation. I know here in San Diego that Drew Ford was holding at MSRP on their Escape hybrids in November. You could get top of the line V6 for $10k less. The 2009 Fusion has a $3500 rebate according to this website. I'm guessing close to $10k extra to get the hybrid WITHOUT the AWD option.
  • One things for sure, with the CAFE fleet average MPG standards on the way up (35 MPG by 2020, and considering 31.6 by 2015, up from 27 now), Ford would love to start selling more and more hybrids (Ford Fusion Hybrids and Escape Hybrids) to free up their other vehicles in the fleet to get much lower MPG. If gas prices stay below $2.50 per gallon over the next 10 years, hybrids might be the silver bullet to meet the CAFE standards. If gas prices soar again above that, then consumers will want more non-hybrid models getting better MPG, spreading the high-MPG tech to non-hybrids. High gas prices could reverse the current (at least at Ford) trends in engineering offices where non-hybrids don't get enough fuel efficiency innovations while hybrids are concentrated on.
  • larsb's USAToday article was good. I think the author was refering to the well known lack of good driving experience in the Prius, and the Camry, for that matter. Toyota steering feel is just strange. And acceleration in a Prius is not satisfying at all. At least the Ford Fusion Hybrid will deliver a better experience. The only part of the article where the author made an error was when saying the Prius has almost as much room in it. The Fusion Hybrid is a full step up in roominess from the Prius, not just "about the same room inside" as he said. Its a bigger, heavier vehicle. Just about all the automotive press agrees the Fusion Hybrid is a winner. And, really, no matter what the price diff is between a nice Fusion 4-cyl non-hybrid and a hybrid, just being able to deny the Middle East and Venezuela more U.S. dollars is worth it, for those that don't mind paying the extra thousands.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 413
    Will the dealer in the pre-order process have MSRP figures? Can you find these out before you go there? I see the Fusion HB on Edmunds but not the Milan HB.

    How can they then tack on to this?
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    The author did not make an error, so much as an interpretation that may not agree with yours. According to the epa interior volume index, both the Prius and Fusion fall in the mid-size category. The Fusion may have slightly more interior space, but not enough to put it in the next size class. Used to be we all determined subcompact/compact/intermediate/fullsize mostly by exterior length and width. In that regard, they are definetely different sizes. But the epa data have pointed out how some cars with large exteriors (some Bentleys for example) are only midsize by interior volume, while they consider the Hyundai Sonata for example a "full-size"by interior volume. Anyway, you are both right.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The USAToday article was very positive..rave even. What's up with the fuel economy results being found? This one is now the 3rd review to state that they found the actual FE to be 34-ish instead of 39-ish as would be expected by the EPA values.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    You will negotiate the price based on the MSRP - $x above or below MSRP. If they're going to charge an addendum then it will be $X above MSRP. Then when the vehicle shows up you take the MSRP and calculate the price you agreed on.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    They're probably not being easy on the throttle. It will only hit 47 mph on electric power with a very light right foot.
  • otisnjotisnj Posts: 15
    Regarding the batteries - Any idea of the warranty to be offered? What about replacement cost?
    Has anyone researched the battery performance degradation with hybrids when operating in a cold environment? What kind of mileage can I expect when driving at 20 F?
    By the way - I had a similar experience as an earlier post. I tried contacting a local dealer with questions. They had very little information to offer.
  • gregg_vw, The author of the USAToday car review made a misleading error when he said the Prius was "about" as roomy as the Fusion. For example, would you say the Ford 500/Taurus sedan is about as roomy as a Prius? Of course not. Well, the Fusion is very close to the Ford 500/Taurus large sedan in the critical measurements of shoulder room and hip room. (The Fusion slightly beats the 500/Taurus on front hip room, BTW.) Those roominess measurements are the biggest contributors to the actual feeling of not being cramped, as known in Human Factors automotive engineering. If you go by EPA volume measurements and/or exterior dimensions as you did, you can get confused, because some of that volume is not devoted to places where you notice it the most. The Prius was made narrow to give it more MPG, sacrificing driver/passenger comfort levels.

    Figures for the 2010 Fusion, 2009 Prius, 2009 Taurus
    Front Shoulder Room 57.4 in. 55 in. 57.8 in.
    Rear Shoulder Room 56.5 in. 52.9 in. 57.6 in.
    Front Hip Room 54 in. 51 in. 53.7 in.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    And there, Fusion is without equal among hybrids

    It may well be, but until they hit the road and are driven by consumers instead of a very few automotive journalist, only time will tell.

    As for "driving experience" people that own a hybrid to truly maximize their FE will never push the FFH to the limit that will make it noticable over the TCH. Does the TCH handle like a sporting sedan? No it does not. Does anyone really want to drive it that way? Only a few. And a "few" won't make a big difference in the overall public opinion.

    I think the FFE will be a great car and a hit for Ford. I'm just saying to say that it is without equal before it's in the showroom is BS
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    I don't understand. Again, I don't disagree with anything you say. I said that the guy was using EPA volumes, and like EPA mpg figures, that provides a gauge that may be useful to some people and may not be to others.

    The Taurus of course is a large car by EPA standards and your standards as well (even though its interior width is closer to a mid-size, as you point out by your figures). Large cars used to more often be 59" - 62" in shoulder room, but the Taurus definitely has the volume and legroom of a large car regardless. The author was merely pointing out that the Prius and Fusion are in the same size class. You are pointing out how greater interior width can impart a greater feeling of roominess. Maybe that's why the cockpit of the Taurus feels a bit cramped compared to say, the DTS or Lucerne or Crown Vic (still all large cars nonetheless).

    As you know, the Ford hybrid models are identical to the non-hybrids in interior room. I hope that the next iteration of the Fusion (fall 2012?) includes more rear seat room. A car of that size could have more leg room without increasing the exterior dimensions.
  • wvgasguy said "driven by consumers instead of a very few automotive journalist" .... Like others who post here occasionally, you have way more faith in Aunt Mable's opinion of vehicles than I do. Most (not all) automotive journalists know their stuff, where the average Joe does not. So who should we trust?

    wvgasugy said "Does the TCH handle like a sporting sedan? No it does not. Does anyone really want to drive it that way? " ... Don't forget emergency evasive handling ability. It should be there, and cars that do it better than others can save your neck. It has little to do with driving like Mario Andretti, although feeling that is satisfying.
  • gregg_vw, I'm just saying the Fusion Hybrid is a notch up in interior roominess over the Prius, and the author of the USAToday report should have emphasized that more. Thats all. I offered some numbers to show the difference. No, I don't think the Fusion Hybrid will feel as big inside as a massive Crown Vic, as thats another notch up in interior roominess over a 500/Taurus or Fusion.

    This all may be VERY important because taxi companies in NY would love a Fusion Hybrid, as they have liked the Escape Hybrid, but they look at interior roominess and the ability to stuff a lot of passengers in the back seat. Prius taxis are common, but they give up the ability to put chubby people in the back, with luggage.

    Another thing that gets dropped in all these discussions about the Fusion Hybrid over other hybrids like the Prius or Insight is safety. The extra crumple zones on a Fusion Hybrid are going to protect you more, something many people actually think about when comparing these hybrids. Yet another advantage goes to the Fusion Hybrid.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    Most (not all) automotive journalists know their stuff, where the average Joe does not. So who should we trust?

    Actually my name is Joe. So I guess that makes me just an average nonautomotive engineer. I don't expect to change your opinion, no one on here has been able to do that. It is difficult to argue with an expert. Anyway, the point being I drove a TCH for 67,000 miles. I am not concerned about the handling. No I did not drive curves at 70mph on 2 lane roads like I did with my Vette, my (2) 300ZX's, my Audi TT, my 350Z and lastly my FX45. I make that point just to show that I have driven decent handling sporting cars before my TCH. Will the FFH be a better handling car than the TCH? I have no doubt it will. Will it be significantly enough so that I should be concerned with the TCH. NO. That's all most people want to know.

    Did I ever feel the TCH was unsafe? NO. It was a great dependable car.

    The FFH is not even on the road yet but you are willing to consider it as exceptionally better than the TCH. I'm simply saying that a few journalist that have a heavy bias towards fast good handling cars will always lean towards them in a comparison. Even when that comparison is about cars intended to be economy cars.

    Most people read these forums to get an idea about how they will like a car they may be considering. Yes your technical arguments are probably correct, but no one really cares that much. They just enjoy jerking your chain.
  • wvgasguy (Joe), My point in my last post was simply that people SHOULD want better handling/steering cars because they might save their neck in emergency maneuvers. Thats all. It does matter that Toyota Camry's have inferior steering compared to a Fusion Hybrid. Sure, any car will get Aunt Mable to the grocery store and back, but better steering/handling will allow a good driver to avoid many accidents.

    And what are you saying the Fusion Hybrid is "not on the road"? Its out there being evaluated by skilled people now. Its on the road. Thats better than consumers who won't be able to thoroughly test the performance. Just like its wiser to trust a doctor's medical opinion over your barber, leave it to the experts in their field.

    Don't take any of this as an insult, because every adult is an expert at something, so I'm sure you're a Joe who knows his stuff about whatever it is you do.
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