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Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid

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  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    Fox News channel's show "Fox and Friends", Friday morning 6AM eastern time, March 20, will drive the Ford Fusion Hybrid through NYC. I'll be DVRing it, but they may put it on their website as a video if you miss it. Fox News "Fox and Friends" general website click here

    Kind of makes sense, since there are a lot of Ford Escape Hybrids as taxis on the streets of NY.
  • gfr1gfr1 Member Posts: 55
    It's my impression that not many here have had the opportunity to drive the Fusion Hybrid yet. Well, Ford has a demo (fully optioned -- white) that is making the rounds from city - to - city. As I understand it, the major dealer in the area gets it for one day and you sign up for a 15 min. test drive. Then it over nights to the next location. Anyway, it was in Gilbert, (Phoenix) AZ today, from 0800 to 2100. As a point of reference, my primary vehicle is a late model S - Class Mercedes and my wife has a late model Lexus RX. So, the hybrid is not up to those standards and shouldn't be expected to be. However, it was very nice looking, quiet and smooth. Performance was completely adequate. What is impressive is the smoothness of the hybrid operation. You cannot tell when the engine is operating, except for the mileage gauge that comes down from "60" when the engine starts. Same, when the engine stops. You have to look at the instrument if you want to know. Same for the regenerative braking. I could not detect a difference in the brake feel from normal, nor the transition from regen. to mechanical braking. And, my life career has been jet aircraft flying and test operations, so I am attuned to sensory events. At full throttle, you can hear the 4 cyl. thrash a little, but not as much as I expected. The trunk isn't full size, but noticeabally better than the competition. I noticed that the indicated mileage was 35+ mpg, with the city demo type driving and with a ¾ tank, it said 450+ miles to empty. This was at a very upstanding dealership. They sell for MSRP, with no mark-up and the sales person didn't "hard sell" or try to influence. He was just gracious. Nice experience. (Sanderson Ford). For instance, they sell Mustang KR500s (King of the Road" Shelbys for MSRP while some dealerships have up to $25,000. mark-up! Good car & good people, from my experience. I've never been there before, as it's on the other side of town from me. I'm impressed! -- GR
  • pableaupableau Member Posts: 6
    :confuse: Many of you have referred to Ford stating that you're eligible for the full $3,400 tax credit, but I wonder if Ford will back it up when the IRS denies it.

    I read in another forum about a guy in SoCal who went into an IRS office to get clarification and was told definitively that the date of ordering is irrelevant, it's the date the vehicle is placed in service that determines the level of tax credit.

    I also stumbled on the IRS form 8910 link title , which is used to request the credit, & it only asks for the date placed in service.

    My local S.F Bay Area Ford dealer just emailed me to tell me their first 2 FFHs will arrive end of April, for $2,000 over MSRP (Internet special deal!). Anyone have any better deals in the area?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Then explain this: http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html

    For example, if consumer A purchases a Prius on Sept. 30, 2006, and takes possession in February 2007, consumer A can claim the full credit for 2007, the year in which the vehicle is placed in service.

    There is no other logical way to "purchase" a vehicle in September and take possession in February except to order it. It also mentions the Purchase date of the vehicle when determining the amount of the credit. The date you take possession determines which tax year you're allowed to claim the credit. If you bought a FFH on 3/30/09 and took delivery within 2009 you can claim the full credit on your 2009 return. But if you take delivery in January 2010 you have to wait and claim the full credit on your 2010 return.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    akirby, If you can't read and understand the tax publications concerning dates and the phrase "placed in service", then consult a tax advisor. However, your point about "date you take possession determines which tax year....", above, quoting you, is not correct. There are things you can do in early 2009 that qualify for a deduction on your 2009 tax return; thats just the way its always been with a lot of things. Again, just read the IRS pub, then go to your tax advisor or ask the IRS if you still don't understand. And, like somebody said earlier, never just do something you think may be wrong in hopes of not getting caught. Thats unethical.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    The President yesterday announced a $7,500 tax credit program coming for the purchase of a Hybrid. I think the target of this is the GM Volt. So what do we do now? Wait for this to become official? Anyone know any details of this?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I understand just fine. One set of IRS forms refers only to "date placed in service". The other IRS documents refer to "purchase date". They are both IRS documents. You obviously didn't read the link that I posted. It says:

    The date of purchase determines the amount of the credit available for a vehicle, i.e. whether a vehicle is eligible for the full credit or whether a portion of the credit is phased-out. The placed in service date determines the taxable year in which the credit may be claimed.

    So....date of purchase determines the credit amount and the date it is placed in service determines which return you're allowed to claim it on (2009 or 2010). I see not other possible interpretation. Please enlighten me.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    They just put the video up of the Fusion Hybrid test drive at .....Fusion test drive video click here....
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    akirby, I'm not a tax professional. Instead of asking tax questions on an Edmund's forum, why not call the IRS or consult a tax pro somewhere? There's an idea.

    Let's just talk about Fusion Hybrids here.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I wasn't asking questions and I don't need tax advice. I was attempting to answer someone else's question based on published IRS documents which back up Ford's claim that FFHs ordered before 4/1 would be eligible for the entire $3400 credit.

    Seems entirely relevant to this topic.
  • smilin_jimsmilin_jim Member Posts: 2
    In the clip they said it at least twice and printed it on the screen. "In showrooms now." Anybody seen one in a showroom, yet?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Yes, I have to ask what is all this ask a tax advisor, ask a tax professional?

    This is a straighftforward $3400 tax credit for making a purchase. There is nothing unethical about signing for a vehicle purchase prior to the deadline and taking the credit, even though said bought vehicle was delivered after 3/31/09. Whether it is considered legal according to some IRS drone doing his or her job is a whole nother kettle of fish, but claiming this credit because you bought the vehicle prior to 3/31 (and delivery could not happen by that time does not involve significant ethical shenanigans) does not rise to the level of oh, let's say, invading a sovereign country because we think there might be highjinks going on, or certain AIG retaining compensation for departing hotshots. OK, sorry for lobbing that kettle of fish (and mixing metaphors worse than most). I meant to say it is a technical point, but calling it an ethical dilemma is just wrong.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    calling it an ethical dilemma is just wrong.

    Right on. To spend hundreds of dollars with a CPA to see if a Tax Credit will go through when you file in 2010 is a waste of money. Nothing ventured nothing gained. All the IRS will do is say yes that is legitimate or no. Then you can argue your case or pay the additional tax. I cannot recall how many dozens of times I have put in deductions that were not specifically addressed in the tax code. I have never been audited. I go by my CPA's advice when tax time rolls around. If the dealer says they got word that you can get the $3400 by signing the deal on a FFH before April 1st. That will be a piece of your evidence if the IRS kicks it back.
  • hayley2hayley2 Member Posts: 44
    I ordered a Milan Hybrid (Silver) on 2/16. Dealer received the acknowledgment of the order. Now Dealer tells me that they have a Black one due in to dealership which we indicated we will take instead of the Silver that has a Vin # assigned. They do not have an eta however. Anyone have an idea as how long to ship after vin # has been assigned?
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    My ordered FFH (ordered on 2/23) had a VIN assigned last week. The build date is the week of 4/13. The dealer estimates I will get the car by end of April. So, from VIN being assigned to delivery seems to be about 6 weeks.

    Congrats on the Milan. I was going to order one instead of the FFH, but the dealer said delivery would take longer.
  • hayley2hayley2 Member Posts: 44
    daninoah - Thanks, that gives me something to go on. So maybe with some luck I can expect delivery at the dealer by mid to end of April? We saw the Milan Hybrid at the St. Louis Auto Show in January and decided this was the car for us. The vehicle was on a moving pedastal, so could not access the car, but have followed the blogs and reports. Mostly all positive from what I can see. Congrats on your FFH.
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    Hayley,

    Congrats to you as well. :)
    It is not my m.o. to buy a car without a test drive. But I took a good look at it at the L.A. Auto Show. I have had imports for the last few years, but I know Ford makes a good product at a fair price. And there is no doubt in my mind that the Fusion and Milan Hybrids are class leaders at this time. From the drive train to the technology and everything in between, these sedans can't be beat. :shades:
  • WyattNicholsWyattNichols Member Posts: 55
    Hayley,

    The estimates I'm hearing about the FFH the dealer ordered for me is about the same, but I'm figuring it will be 8 weeks.
  • hayley2hayley2 Member Posts: 44
    Wyatt - My dealer (Sales Mgr.) has promised to check the reports each week & will let me know when he has an eta on my vehicle. We're excited about this purchase and hopefully by mid April it will arrive.

    I had heard that Ford/Mercury wanted to have at least one of the Hybrids at the dealership as soon as possible. At this point I have not seen any advertising on the part of Ford/Mercury. I suspect they will sell all they produce once the public is aware of the product.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It almost seems a waste to have a demo when you have people lined up to buy the FFH. If I was Ford I would not worry until one is sitting unsold on the lot. A demo is a lost sale when there is a shortage of vehicles.
  • milkman1milkman1 Member Posts: 80
    Oddly, in talking to a dealer here, I was told that he has his first 14 non gybrids due in sold already and it's actually the 3 hybrids on order that remain unsold. Struck me as odd.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    Do you think the 7.5k tax credit will apply to MHB?
  • likofloathelikofloathe Member Posts: 7
    The proposed 7500 tax credit is for plug in hybrids> It probably would not apply. I am still on the fence, My Hyundai Sonata averages 26 MPG the way and places I drive. I figure that FFH will get about 36 - 40, but the FFH will cost me $175 more a month because I got it with 0% financing. On e minute I lean towards makign the leap, the next I think I should keep what I have.
  • WyattNicholsWyattNichols Member Posts: 55
    Likofloathe is right, the 7.5k is for plug-ins.

    My FFH was ordered the last few days of Feb or the first few days of March. Even though I have a VIN there is not a projected delivery date for it, nor the one the dealer ordered months ago when they were allowed to make their first requests.

    We got notification today that they accepted a change in the color of the leather seats. Thus, they are not that far along with its production. I'm sure the seats are one of the last things to go in the car.

    Analyzing the decision to buy a hybrid based on financial factors is equivalent to deciding to have children based on financial factors. Both are emotional decisions that few people would make based on financial factors. (Yes, I'm a man and will get plenty of flack for that statement)
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    I ordered my FFH on 2/23. I too have a VIN, and my dealer said the car is slated for production in the week of 4/13. Delivery is usually 2-4 weeks after build date.

    BTW, if you go in the Ford website to the owner's link, you can register your car. I did so, even though I don't yet have the car. The VIN came back as expected: 2010 Fusion Hybrid.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We got notification today that they accepted a change in the color of the leather seats

    It could take a little longer if they cannot find the right color Cow for the seats. :shades:

    That $7500 tax credit for plugin or EV type vehicles is based on the KWH capacity of the battery. I think the car has to have a 16KWH battery to get the full $7500 tax credit. Just happens to be the exact amount of the Volt.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,293
    my guess is the dealer doesn't know when they are getting their hybrids.
    they can ask, but their wish may take a while to get granted.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,293
    funny analogy! i can tell you my kids are costing me way more than buying a non hybrid over a hybrid would save me. ;)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    We got notification today that they accepted a change in the color of the leather seats. Thus, they are not that far along with its production. I'm sure the seats are one of the last things to go in the car.

    Seriously, you don't think the assembly line process takes a couple of weeks and the seats go in on the last day?
  • WyattNicholsWyattNichols Member Posts: 55
    No, really I haven't given it a whole lot of thought one way or the other. I know it will take much longer to get the car from Mexico to my dealer, than it took to make it. I don't know when they stop accepting changes to an order. I was loosely using "production" to mean all the steps from accepting orders, making sure the required parts/supplies are on-site, putting it together, up to the point it leaves their property and is headed north.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    The Fusion Hybrid is made in Mexico? Are you sure about that? I guess they only have to pay the workers 1/3 of what they pay American ones.
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    All fusions are (and have been) made in Mexico. Most of the content is domestic. It is no different than other car companies having plants in many international locations.

    The fact the vehicle is built in Mexico should not matter. As far as I am concerned I am still "buying American" just as I would be buying "German" if I bought a BMW X-5 or buying "Japanese" if I bought a Honda Accord.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    By your definition. There are numerous ways to look at it, and whole forums discussing what constitutes an American car.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There is more to it than salaries. They are able to export Fusions to South America and avoid huge tariffs. They also moved Focus production from Mexico back to the U.S. to free up the plant. It's not as cut and dried as people might think.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Does anyone have real world fuel economy figures on the FFH? How long will it run on 40 with just the battery?
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Since Ford has car plants in Mexico and Canada, maybe we should refer to them as North American cars, instead of American.

    You can blame the good ol US of A government for forcing American companies, not just car companies, for the high tariffs for exporting US goods to other countries, to have factories outside of the USA. If O'bam really wants to get more jobs going in the country, he needs to work on reducing or eliminating high tariffs. When other countries can import cars, trucks, and construction equipment at a more competitive cost to foreign manufacturers, more plants can be opened up bringing in more jobs. A good example is Caterpillar, the tariff on a bulldozer can run as high as $100,000, making it impossible to sell to other countries. Whether the Tariff is imposed by the US, or by the country to export to, they need to work it out so that the US can compete.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Considering they only started shipping them last week - how could anyone have real world fuel economy figures yet?
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    They have been doing hybrid vs conventional comparisons for years. Everyone I see shows that even in best case scenarios you need to drive at least 150,000 to make up the cost difference over the four cylinder. Lets say their is a $5,000 price difference between a loaded 4cy and hybrid while gas costs $3 a gallon. That is 1,677 gallons of gas. That be a lot of gas.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Found em on Edmund's
    "n fact, we could manage only 35.7 mpg. The car's onboard computer was a little generous, claiming 37 mpg. The Camry Hybrid we tested on the route (on a different day) returned 41.8 mpg and the Prius garnered 51.9 mpg."

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=138726
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    dbostondriver said: "Does anyone have real world fuel economy figures on the FFH?"

    The EPA fuel economy figures are a controlled-conditions run so that cars can be compared equally. If you get "real-world" figures, your MPG will vary from about 20 MPG to 60 MPG in that vehicle, depending on how it is driven (race-car style, low-speed, high-speed, granny-style, etc., all can deliver different figures all over the place). So, stick with the EPA figures so you can COMPARE cars one with another.

    Your question about how far it can go at 40 mph depends on how much the battery is charged, referred to as "SOC" as the tech term for it. I thought I heard it can maintain 40 mph for 10 minutes, given a fully-charged battery.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    dbostondriver said: "They have been doing hybrid vs conventional comparisons for years. Everyone I see shows that even in best case scenarios you need to drive at least 150,000 to make up the cost difference over the four cylinder. Lets say their is a $5,000 price difference between a loaded 4cy and hybrid while gas costs $3 a gallon. That is 1,677 gallons of gas. That be a lot of gas. "

    Agreed. Good luck trying to convince some people on this thread. Some people think the Ford Fusion Hybrid is a BMW compared to the 4-cyl Fusion (same equipment). I say they are basically the same vehicle (its obvious) except one has electric motors/battery, and the hybrid handles worse because of all that extra gear. For that you pay more. Still, if one makes the point that they don't care about economics and just want to stick it to Chavez and/or the MidEast, then a hybrid makes sense.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't consider journalist obervations in a limited test drive with pre production vehicles to be "real world" numbers.

    Besides, other journalists got anywhere from 42 to 52 mpg in similar tests.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Maybe. But they did the test on the same track as the Prius and Camry.
    Don't get me wrong, I am all for Hybrids and really like the Insight and FFH personally, but for the most part hybrids do not make that much economic sense. Lets
    I will go on a limb and say that for the most part they are a fad. The Hummer was a fad, so the anti Hummer per-se?

    I went on the government sight and compared the Camry Hybrid to the 4cyl Camry.
    You save about $300 a year with gas at $1.91.
    Annual Fuel Cost*
    Camry: $842
    Camry Hybrid: $1146
    So lets say you save $400 a year, and the premium for the hybrid is $2,500, it will take you 6 years 3 months to make up the cost. And that doesn't take into account battery replacement (nimh batteries loose efficiency with time).
    Maybe your saving the environment, but the hybrid development and extra manufacturing have to increase pollution. A fad per-se? :confuse:
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2009/03/12/news.EnergyFix.03112009.cnnmoney
  • daninoahdaninoah Member Posts: 45
    With the $3400 tax credit, there is no net increase in cost over a similarly equipped 4 cylinder 2010 Fusion. The savings start right away. And as we don't have the earth to ourselves, driving a hybrid helps conserve fuel and reduce our use of oil. That is a good thing, and should not be overlooked. I know one person's decision will not change the global picture, but several million people doing the same thing most certainly will.

    You comment about the battery is non sense. It will easily last well over 150,000 miles without any issue. It is warrantied for 10 years. It is not a cell phone battery, so your comparison to a common NIMH battery is misplaced.

    And yes, driving a hybrid does make me feel better. With the tax credit I will get, the decision really is a no brainer. Hybrid technology is definitely not a "fad." Rather it is transitional technology that has improved over the last decade. The fact that we have a 195 hp mid-sized sedan getting over 40 mpg in the city is remarkable. I look for more improvements to come and vehicles become less dependent on fossil fuels. :shades:
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    It is not just about saving money. It is also about significant numbers of people finding small ways in many different arenas to use less energy. It all adds up.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    First off, I sincerely doubt you received a $3,400 tax credit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_tax_credit
    And while I will agree that programming will allow to last the battery to last longer, it will not last for ever. Also the battery has the same chemical make up as the one on you cell phone, filled with material hazardous to the environment.
    On HybridCars.com: "Though substantially less toxic than conventional car batteries, nickel-based batteries are known carcinogens, and have been shown to cause a variety of teratogenic effects.
    I want to be clear. I do think plug in Hybrid Cars are the way of the future. As tech costs and car weights decrease; better and lighter batteries will make plug in Hybrids a clear economical choice.
    Unless turbo diesel technology proves better. ;)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    First off, I sincerely doubt you received a $3,400 tax credit.

    Any Fusion or Milan hybrid ordered by the end of this month should be eligible for the full $3400 credit.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Good luck getting one. Has anyone here been able to purchase a Fulan Hybrid? Anyone get the car delivered yet? My local dealers don't even have 2010 Fusions in general.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What is it about the word "ORDERED" that you failed to comprehend?
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