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Is it worth restoring?
Purchased a hurting 1970 Barracuda convertible; 6
cylinder, 3 speed, red paint, red interior, black
top, all original. Floor in back under passenger
seat in gone. Wondering if anyone knows how many
of these were produced, how many are left, and if
it is worth restoring?
cylinder, 3 speed, red paint, red interior, black
top, all original. Floor in back under passenger
seat in gone. Wondering if anyone knows how many
of these were produced, how many are left, and if
it is worth restoring?
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Chances are only a few hundred left.
Is it worth restoring? Well, in terms of cold hard cash, no, since you can buy a nice V-8 convertible for around $10,000, and you'd have to ask less for a restored 6-cylinder model, at least 15-20%. So that potential value isn't so great as to justify the heavy expense of a thorough restoration.
If you restored it on the cheap, figuring 41,500 for a cheap paint job, $1,000 in body work, $600 for a top, $3,500 engine and trans overhaul, $1,000 for upholstery kits, $1,000 miscellaneous, and you doing a lot of the R&R work, you might break out even if you don't count your labor.
I'd say if you really like this type of car, and want to restore one, shop for a V-8 with less rust and start with that one. A '69 or '71 isn't all that different a car, and gives you more to look for.
As a hobby, of course, it may be worth getting one of these cars in nice shape, but there doesn't seem to be a justification for spending lots of money on one....being a later Imperial Lebaron, and therefore looking the same as the other Chrylser Imperials of lower price, and also a 4-door car, all adds up to a slow rate of appreciation, money-wise. It' like the difference between early Chrysler 300 "letter cars" and later ones.
The reason for their rarity (only about 1800 made or so) is that they were very expensive, and for the same price you could buy a Caddie Eldorado Convertible....so they didn't make many because there wasn't a big demand for them at that time.
Good, sturdy car, though, and a nice cruiser for modern highways. So if you can get one running and looking good for less than $5,000 say, as a total investment, you won't lose your shirt.
Skip the restoration and look for a good condition original. They're cheap!
No, I don't think that's the bug I would fix up. Anything prior to the Superbeetle would be a better choice if you are trying to profit some from the deal. Best of all would be pre-1968.
Of course, as a clean used car for $2,000 that you could always sell for around $2K, then it would be okay...you won't make much of a profit, but you could use it and sell it and so drive around for "free".
1. If you fix the rust, do the necessary paint and interior work, you will not be likely to recover your costs. You'll be financially buried in the car for life.
2. Your car will be forever tainted as a repaired and patched up vehicle and could not compete in the marketplace with very clean and unmolested 280SLS selling for $18,000.
3. The rust will return.
4. There are plenty of nice 280SLs out there...find one where someone ELSE has spent all the money and needs to sell at market price.
So that's what I think...pull the ripcord and get out while you can. I think if you present the car for inspection to someone, and even with some rust, it is worth what you paid for it.
Being a senile old fart, as they refer to me at my place of work, I have decided to do a complete restoration of this rust heap instead of trying to pass it on to someone else.
The engine has recently been rebuilt and requires minor cosmetic detailing. I am going ahead and doing most of the disassembling of the car myself. and will be having the entire body sand blasted and all the rusted parts replaced. (might even use this opportunity to buy a welder, a toy I have always wanted
Again thanks for the advise.
any car that is worth putting a lot into.
I suppose a couple of factors come into play
. What do you mean by restore?
I think most folks think of restorations as
painting the car, rebuilding the engine,
and slapping on some new tires. That's
a far cry from a national show winning,
$100,000 invested, Hemi Challenger or something.
. Price of parts (and availability) vs. value
of finished product.
Assumming that labor is free, there are some cars
I think are in the sweet spot for dumping money
into. Convertibles are better than hardtops
(if the top hardware is there, I bet the cost
of going through a convertible is no more
expensive), desirable mass produced cars are
good. (Examples are split window beetles or
ZL1 Camaro's. While rare, there is a lot of
parts interchange and a big aftermarket).
High performance models are good. Every time
I see money spent on a 1969 Mustang notchback,
I see money wasted on a good parts car for
a Boss 302 or Mach 1.
. Are you really going to finish it?
It is mucho work to really go through a whole
car. Most projects languish in garages until
sold for peanuts (or the owner dies and then
it is sold for peanuts). While the therapy
angle is of some value, it is probably of
equal therapy to save up a few more coins,
buy a decent driver (no garage queens please)
and cruise around in a cool car. You'll
have enough therapy work just in the breakdowns
and tuneups inherent in 30 year old (or whatever)
machinery.
...Enough with the negative thoughts Moriarty.
ndance
The car looks cool, with the fins and cat eye tail lamps, so I thought that it would be a custom alternative to a minivan and I doubt that I would see any cars like it at the soccer games. I also have access to a parts car in decent shape.
What do you think, would it be worth it and how might a car like this be valued. I'm not in to make a profit, just to have a keeper and a driver. Thanks!!!!! Jon
I figure that this car decently restored for street use could be worth $5,000-6,000, and restored professionally $10,000. Certainly much more valuable than a 4-door sedan.
300 in my uncle's garage, and I didn't know he's
been having this car for the past 30 years, with only 1,000 Mi. on it, seems brand new to me, he
had just retired, and is thinking about restoring
it, is it a fun car to do so?( If you ask me how this happend, well, he said 1 month after he bought the car, thee were no more leaded gas for
this car, funny how things changed.) Any inputs?
If it's a convertible, it might be worth a cosmetic restoration but I'd do so with restraint myself...but at least you'll have a car worth a few bucks when you finish....not big bucks, but some bucks $7K-8K ??
Personally, I'd sell or drive the car as is, as its originality is the only valuable thing going for it...by restoring it, you destroy the only thing that makes it worth something IMO.
Driving it with unleaded gas should not be a problem, as this seems to affect only engines that are driven under severe operating conditions, like racing or towing.
thanks for the help
It has just over 78k original miles on it. According to the numbers it has a high-performance 383 option, automatic transmission, factory air, and even a vacuum-operated remote trunk release. The interior is in virtually like-new condition, except for one seam split on the drivers seat (which according to Grandma was there when she bought it from her brother-in-law). With the exception of about an 18-month period (just after her death) the car has been kept in a garage. Has the original black vinyl top that is beginning to show signs of wear, but overall not bad. Not much rust on the body (but the undercarriage could use a good once-over), and only one dent and some damaged chrome on the passenger side (Granny had some trouble getting the thing in the garage in her later years).
When I first took possession of the car, I replaced the water pump, belts, hoses, replaced the brake fluid, etc. However, in an attempt to drive it home one day so I could do some more work on it, something gave way in the engine/tranny, and I lost forward momentum. The engine continued to run for a minute or so, with an occasional, erratic knock; then it died. No smoke, no leaking oil, nothing. Since I was only a few miles from my uncle's house where I'd been storing it, I managed to fire it up again and turn it around before it died for good (and a friend towed me back in exchange for a case of beer).
Three questions:
1) Any idea as to what the problem might be with the engine/tranny (i.e. an easy fix or a lost cause)?
2) Knowing that this car isn't exactly highly sought after by collectors, what's the MOST money you'd consider putting into it to get it into driveable condition?
3) Excluding cosmetics like paint and such, what would be a good estimate of the $$ involved to get a car like this into "daily driver" condition? (Not that I could afford to drive it daily w/the 383!)
I'm primarily wanting to fix the car up for sentimental reasons, and it could make a pretty fun car to knock around in (and not worry to death about someone scratching it).
I'd say you could put about $2,500 into it and still be okay, but I wouldn't "restore" it in terms of new paint, upholstery, replating, rebuilds, etc (oh, you fix the dent of course and replace the chrome strip).
The value of older American cars is either tied to body style(convertibles are best) and power (the bigger the engine the better). Since your car is not really a "muscle car", and isn't a convertible and isn't one of the popular Mopars, you can see that the value is limited in the future...right now, a mint '67 Polara like yours might bring $6,000. So you can see where you have to watch your budget.
Actually, the most valuable thing on your car is its originality, which I would not mess with, or as little as possible. It's the one thing money cannot replace on an old car.
One final question; in researching the VIN number information on the Dodge, I read that the "high performance" 383 in this particular car was rated at 325hp and 425ftlbs of torque. Are these figures directly comparable to those reported on new cars today, or did they figure this info differently (I've seen references to "gross" and "net" horsepower, but I'm not certain how they're derived).
I think the manufacturers rated engines at both gross and net in '71, then net only from '72 on.
By the way, the 383/325 was considered a good combination of power and economy in its day (believe it or not) but the real hi-perf 383 came in '68, in the Road Runner. Different heads and cam, among other things.
Thanks!
I'd plan on a minimum of a few hundred dollars + 5 hours time and a maximum (excluding major engine work) of $1,000 + 20 hours to get yourself a safe, good running car.
This is not nor will it ever be a valuable car, so you need to think about how much you want to put into it. You can buy very nice examples of this car for a few thousand dollars.
Would one approach this differently if you're viewing the vehicle as a daily driver vs. a "ground up" restoration/investment?
I'm assuming you'd start with the drivetrain, but where do you go from there? I want to be able to get something on the road in pretty short order without spending too much money initially, but I also don't want to be replacing something every month - if there's a minimum number of things to go through first, it would help me figure out how much money I'll need to get started.
Reviving the engine is usually a matter of hand-turning or cranking the engine slowly until it seems free....a little LIGHT oil or ATF down the spark plug holes wouldn't hurt.
So really, anything related to fuel and to rubber parts is a concern...the engine and trans...well, probably fine, although if the seals have dried out you may have a somewhat leaky car.
I don't think the car is, from a collector's point of view, very valuable, but as a great used car and as reliable transportation, it certainly has some value....and the low miles are attractive. I'd guess around $3,500 would be all the money for the car.
As for driving it home, most cars that are under-used suffer from deterioration of rubber parts and seals....so in your case, I'd drive the car around locally and check for anything leaking, oil, water or gas.....if after 50 miles and a nice warmed up car, all looks well, I'd go for it. Just pump up the tires, add a can of dry gas and go....presuming she's driven it in the last few weeks.
If it's been dead 3 months or longer, I'd add at least 5 gallons of fresh gas along with the dry gas. These old Chevys are pretty tough.
Other than anticipated poor fuel economy, are there any other disadvantages I should expect with a one-ton truck down the road (or unforseen benefits)? I had the truck checked by a mechanic, and he said all looked well, except he'd suggest having the timing chain replaced if it hadn't been done in the past, due to the mileage. If this really an issue on this engine?
Mr. Shiftright
Host
-Robberbarron
if it is a chop, that's okay if it's well done, but it won't be worth more than the coupe version, so you need to be careful about your investment. At $5K, you are already well over market value.
If you have any other info, please let us know.
Seeing as how someone at the weekly car show here in Orlando (At Old Town in Kissimmee) was advertising a Mint 85 Cadillac Eldorado ragtop for $4950 cash......
I'd pass on a rusty one with problems.
Bill
Now over at Buick, 1,248 Riviera 'vert's were built in 1982, 1,750 in 1983, 500 in 1984, and 400 in 1985. They retailed for about $9-10,000 over a comparable coupe.
The Eldorado was offered only as a convertible in 1984 (3300 built) and 1985 (2,300 built).
Considering that the tooling was in place somewhere to make Eldorado and Riviera 'verts, it would stand to reason that it wouldn't be too hard to pull off some Toronado 'verts as well. The conversion was done by an outside contractor (my book doesn't say who), so they may have built some Toronados, along with the Buicks and Caddies, but Oldsmobile may just not have kept track.
FWIW, I think I'd prefer a Toronado over a Riv or Eldorado. I think most Toronados had Olds 307's where the Eldorado would be stuck with one of those meltdown aluminum V-8's, and a lot of the Rivs had either 4.1 V-6'es or Turbo 3.8's, which would probably burn up moving all that mass. I'm not even going to get into the diesel 350...
I know one place I've definitely seen a Toronado 'vert was on NBC's "Hunter". I remember an old guy named "Happy" or "Smiley" or something like that driving a burgundy one with one of those aftermarket grilles that tried to make it look less like an Olds and more like a Cadillac.
Speaking of GM convertibles, does anybody know anything about the Cutlass Ciera/Buick Century convertible, the early 80's Monte Carlo convertible, and the 'vert versions of the earlier FWD Deville? I've seen examples of all of them. Believe it or not, the Ciera/Century is the best looking of the batch! I would think a Monte from that era would look good with the top down, but the ones I've seen don't.
I think the worst conversion I've ever seen was a 1976-77 era Chrysler Cordoba. It actually looked kinda cool with the top down, but hideous with it up...kind of like somebody stuck the roofline to an '87 Cougar on it, minus the rear side windows, and covered it in canvas.
-Andre
There were about 200 Olds Toro Converts made in 1985. I have also found a 1983. Here is the web page for it.
http://www.worldzone.net/auto/olds/owners/shaw.html
I'm going to put up a web page for the one I'm interested in so you all can see it. I have 27 photos, I just have to scan them in. The mechanicals for the top look just like the Riviera, <never seen the inside of a Eldo convert> with Olds going down the tubes I think this will be a worthy investment. I intend to keep it a long time. Speaking of oddball Toronados, I actually located a perfectly running Toronado caliente convertible that looks exactly like Zeke's above, except it was the 350 Diesel. The thing ran beautifully <as far as Olds diesels go> It was a museum piece.
The grill on the front of that 83 above is the high end Caliente model grill. The 85 I'm looking at has the same grill, but it's black instead of white.
With a little elbow grease she might be a show car.
-Robberbarron
I'd be very careful about spending too much money on this car...of course, if you like it and all, well of course go for it, but as an "investment" I'd have to say it's not a good one at all. Rare doesn't mean valuable in the collector car world. Sometimes a car is rare because not too many people wanted them. So don't mistake people's curiosity with their willingness to pull out their checkbook. Two different things.
So, sticking to topic...is it worth restoring? For pleasure, sure. What can be bad about a nice big comfy American ragtop?
For investment, absolutely not. The restoration costs will easily exceed the value.
It also had that stand-up grille, which I don't like. I always thought the standard grille, mounted low on the car, gave it a sportier look.
So, if a chop-job convertible isn't worth any more than the coupe upon which it was based, I guess the '82 Mirada convertible that I saw in 1993 was just a bit overpriced at $12,000 eh? If nothing else, it was in beautiful condition, except for one small tear in the top. Oh yeah, it shook like a 30 year old school bus over big bumps, but it probably did that when it was new, too!
-Andre
"Cut" cars can be a good value but you can't expect them to ever bring big money, because they are essentially 'fakes'. I'm not at all against doing it, but only saying that if the factory didn't make it, it doesn't really come up on the radar screeen for collectible cars. More of a curiousity.
And, as you say, there is the problem of chassis flex with a cut car. Stock factory convertibles were bad enough. If you want to visualize the problem, think of a hollow pyramid with the top point sheared off. It gets very loose once the top connection (the roof) is removed.
I have a few cars for sale then!
1958 Pontiac Bonneville.Hardtop. Under restoration ORIGINAL Never hit, never rusted NV car (Well a 4sq" hole inthe driver's floorpan). Factory PW, A/C, LeatherBuckets, Tri-Power(And I have the air cleaner!), Transportable radio..etc.
$300,000 when finished.
1959 XK150 3.4 Roadster.Immaculate Driver, Very solidandtight.
$275,000
1960 Vauxhall Velox. Very rare and collectible car. Lookslikeababy'57 Chevy almost.
$95,000
There. My cars are now for sale. That ought to shut up my ex wife's lawyer
hahahahahahaha
Bill
Will you haggle on the Vauxhall? I'll give you...let's see, you're asking 95K...how about 100 bucks? (but you have to deliver it to Calfornia).
But first, let me ask you... if I can get you ypur price,will you buy TODAY?
Bill
You have a Borgward???
Bill