Are you happy you didn't sell your SUV?

larsb · January 2009

Oh, believe me, I'm all over that like White On Rice.........

I decided at birth that my kids were not getting cars AT LEAST until they are 17, preferably only as a graduation gift.

I'm lucky in that I live in Phoenix and there are a lot of good "teen-oriented" driving schools here. I'm going to send them to the best one, maybe the best TWO schools, and have them driving with me as passenger a LONG TIME before even considering getting them a car of their own.

And nothing but a two-seater also.....having a carload of kids is a huge danger risk factor. It DARN sure ain't gonna be no dang SUV.

There's a guy working here in my office who lost his 17-yr-old daughter to a car crash a couple of years ago. I'm going to try to avoid that with everything I can throw at the risk.

andre1969 · January 2009

Just out of curiosity, how much is car insurance these days for a typical teen? When I got my license, my Mom gave me her old 1980 Malibu (used that as an excuse to get a new 1986 Monte Carlo) but my stepdad wouldn't let me on their policy, so I had to get the thing insured by myself. For that first year, which ran 1/87-1/88, my first bill was $1,361. Seemed horrible at the time, especially for a high school junior making $3.75 per hour part time, but I managed it somehow.

In my case, I think having a car worked out well. I worked 6 days per week, and before I had a car, my grandmother would usually pick me up from school on her way home from work and drop me off at work, and then my Mom would have to come pick me up at 7:30. And someone would have to drive me to work on Saturdays.

Out where I live, public transportation is practically non-existent. Although if I had to (and I have) I could have walked from the house to work in about a half-hour.

grbeck · January 2009

Most two-seaters were hardly designed for "sedate" driving...although I'm sure your children will appreciate a sports car as their first set of wheels.

If you want a safe vehicle for teenagers, I'd suggest something reasonably large but boring, and not designed for performance...think older Camry or Taurus.

guss · January 2009

I ran a little landscape business while I was in High School and thru College. I used a little 4cyl. single cap 2wd Toyota pick-up to run the equipment around.

It was fairly low to the ground and handled pretty well. It really only seated 2 and was as slow as molasses.

oldfarmer50 · January 2009

"...Mass Transit can get him just about everywhere..."

LOL. Just wait until you tell him that. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at your house when he starts to whine that no girl will date him because he rides "the loser cruiser" (bus).

Then again, maybe your son will see the wisdom you have acquired throughout your life and agree with you 100%. Yea, right!

larsb · January 2009

Sorry, but even the pretty girls take the "loser cruiser" in Phoenix. Near his school about 30 high schoolers get on and off the bus every day.

gagrice · January 2009

Get him an old PU and a lawnmower. So he can earn enough to buy gas and insurance. I agree on the SUV. Too many teens around here drive Yukons and Tahoes all blinged out. That or some little POC rice rocket dragging on the ground.

boaz47 · January 2009

"Get him an old PU and a lawnmower."

I once read that one of the most common accidents between two vehicles are rear end accidents. My old insurance agent suggested the same thing you just did because the Pick-up had a ladder frame protecting the cab from any accidents from the rear. The front frame on a pick-up had additional steel added to carry the engine and transmission. My son had a truck and still I added big rock guards on both sides to add to side impact resistance.

I do see the wisdom of putting your kids on a Bus. It is even bigger than a SUV or Truck. I do question the dating aspect for young men but if they are commuting to work it should work fine.

nwng · January 2009

ask him to check the tire pressure. I've driven 4 runners and the sequoia's lexus cousin, no comparison when it comes to cornering and steering feel, especially on the highway.

gagrice · January 2009

Lexus does not make a Sequoia rebadge. Only the 4 runner and Land Cruiser. I can tell you after riding in both their is no comparison. The Odyssey is ok to haul kids around town in. I would not want one. I thought I did before I rode in his. To each his own. Plus the Odyssey is too low to the ground to take off the beaten path. I don't think that mini van has much more clearance than a sedan. There are just some people like myself that really like driving a PU truck or an SUV. Not going to change US. For those that feel safer in a Yugo, that is your call.

larsb · January 2009

Gary says, "There are just some people like myself that really like driving a PU truck or an SUV"

Which profile fits you Gary?

1. According to Bradsher, internal industry market research concluded that S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills.

2. Over the past decade, a number of major automakers in America have relied on the services of a French-born cultural anthropologist, G. Clotaire Rapaille, whose speciality is getting beyond the rationalwhat he calls "cortex"impressions of consumers and tapping into their deeper, "reptilian" responses. And what Rapaille concluded from countless, intensive sessions with car buyers was that when S.U.V. buyers thought about safety they were thinking about something that reached into their deepest unconscious. "The No. 1 feeling is that everything surrounding you should be round and soft, and should give," Rapaille told me. "There should be air bags everywhere. Then there's this notion that you need to be up high. That's a contradiction, because the people who buy these S.U.V.s know at the cortex level that if you are high there is more chance of a rollover. But at the reptilian level they think that if I am bigger and taller I'm safer. You feel secure because you are higher and dominate and look down. That you can look down is psychologically a very powerful notion.

So where do you fall Gary? Which of those categories fit you?

boaz47 · January 2009

Is this is almost always a one sided argument. SUV and Truck owners hardly ever even mention small cars or small car owners. Yes they mention Prius owners but mostly because they believe the Prius is one ugly car not that it shouldn't be on the road. SUV owners never start a forum on why someone shouldn't buy a small car or hybrid.

I have had a lot of cars and trucks in all my years of driving and in my experience the larger sample of the smaller car is almost always more comfortable. I have had three compact trucks and they have done their job quite well. Still when I replaced them with a full sized truck the full sized one was simply able to do more of what the compact truck did and do it with some extra comfort.

I am sure some of the SUVs popularity was image because Mini Vans have the image of being a woman's people hauler. I didn't say it was justified only that is the image. But image is just part of the utility of a Pick-up or SUV. They are able to take that off road trip a lot easier than a Mini Van or small Sedan. They can Tow more than their own weight. And they have room to stretch out when you are on the road. All these are reasons that people that have a Truck or SUV used to purchase their vehicles. Somehow that very line of reasoning seems to anger people who don't take off road trips or tow anything or want the security of 4WD in the snow.

The fact that small car owners don't want to or have time to do these things doesn't anger SUV and truck owners. Why should what other people want to drive bother someone else?

larsb · January 2009

boaz47 says, "The fact that small car owners don't want to or have time to do these things doesn't anger SUV and truck owners. Why should what other people want to drive bother someone else? "

Is that rhetorical or do you really want an answer?

jimbres · January 2009

According to Bradsher, internal industry market research concluded that S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills.

C'mon, Larry. This stuff is fuzzy social science: interesting as far as it goes, but nothing that will stand up to close scrutiny. It's an op ed piece with a few footnotes. (If you've spent much time on the campus of a large university, you'll notice how insecure social scientists are when their work is compared to that of real scientists - like physicists or chemists.)

Here's another perspective on Bradsher's "research":

Is Big Bad?

explorerx4 · January 2009

which of those 2 catagories describes you best(mister ex suburban owner)? :P
i'm in #3, wanted wagon all weather/bad road capabilties/no drama.

gagrice · January 2009

I think in his quest to prove his theory he left out many options. Like running down a sandy wash in the desert. Or getting through an 8500 ft pass in the mountains to a cabin. Or just not having a vehicle so low to the ground that it scrapes on the bumpers in the grocery parking lot. Or like our LS400 you have to hit a driveway sideways or it will scrape the under carriage of the car. All part of the planned obsolescence of todays foo foo cars. I would imagine the difference in insurance will just about cover the difference in gas over a year. Not to mention getting in and out of todays low slung cars is probably not good for the back. Your hatred of SUVs will probably get this thread shut down long before it reaches 60,000 posts like the last one.

Did I mention I like to sit upright when I drive. I cannot do that in many cars built today. As my head touches the headliner.

gagrice · January 2009

It looks like Bradher is a reporter trying to act like he knows what he is talking about. I liked this part of your post.

Moreover, the largest SUVs, those over 5,000 pounds (e.g., Ford Expeditions, Chevy Tahoes, and Toyota Land Cruisers), had a lower rate than any other class of vehicle available: 92. The poorest-performing SUV category was the smallest: The under -3,000 pound vehicles, such as the 1997 Geo Tracker.

The death rate for this class, 195 per million, was more than double that of the biggest SUVs. But even these models outperformed minicars, whose death rate of 249 per million was the worst of any vehicle (unlike their fuel efficiency, which is tops). The smallest SUVs have been upsized over the years, moreover, and so there are practically no new SUV models in this least-crashworthy category.

In short, SUVs are probably as safe or safer than cars as a class. Moreover, those who choose the most despised SUV models (the largest ones) for safety reasons are not making a mistake.

So that is another important option Bradsher left out of his analysis, Survival. I don't want to be the victim of a runaway hybrid that has short circuited and accelerates at full speed into my vehicle. :shades:

gagrice · January 2009

New Report Says Ford Escape Hybrid Taxis Are Unsafe in Accidents

Maybe little SUVs are not safe after all :sick: I think I will hail a Crown Vic thank you very much..

The ongoing battle over the safety of hybrid taxicabs took another turn today as the Metropolitan Taxicab Board of Trade released another study, this time disparaging the safety of the Ford Escape Hybrid in accidents and especially in rollovers when fitted for taxi use. The report comes on the heels of several high-profile rollover accidents involving Ford Escape Hybrid taxicabs, which have resulted in the total loss of the taxis and the hospitalization of drivers and occupants.

In the report, engineer and crash-reconstruction expert C. Bruce Gambardella reviewed a specific rollover crash involving an Escape Hybrid taxi and found that the side-curtain airbag failed to deploy normally because there wasn't enough room between the Taxi and Limousine Commission-mandated partition and the roof of the vehicle. The report also found the partition interfered with the seatbelt because it changed the mounting point of the seatbelt, and that the partition had come loose during the crash and could have resulted in a major head injury had there been a passenger in the front seat.

In comparing the accident with a similar scenario involving a Ford Crown Victoria taxi, Gambardella found that "the Ford Crown Victoria, due to its wide track and very low center of gravity, would have been very unlikely to rollover." In his professional opinion, Gambardella said, "If a Ford Crown Victoria had been involved, the accident would have been a simple fender-bender."

Don't ride in a hybrid taxi

andre1969 · January 2009

Not to mention getting in and out of todays low slung cars is probably not good for the back.

Hmm, now that you mention it, maybe that's the reason I drive my '85 Silverado these days, more often than I drive my '00 Intrepid. It's just more comfy IMO. Easier to get into and out of. And sitting high up the way it does, the seat gives me good thigh support in spite of the fact that there's really not much room to stretch my legs. Something about the shape of the seat hits my back just right, too, whereas my Intrepid forces me into a bit of a slouching position. I've actually noticed that about many modern cars...very poor lower back support...unless you spring for power lumbar support, I guess.

I have to take my 84 year old grandmother to the doctor for checkups and such on occasion, and she can actually get into the truck more easily than she can the Intrepid.

Some of the newer trucks and SUVs might be worse than my Silverado, though. We tried to get her in my friend's '06 Xterra once, and she had trouble, mainly because of the position of the running board. And my Mom & stepdad have a 1998 Expedition that Grandmom always hated. Hard to get in and out of, plus neither of them could park it worth a damn, so if they ever went anywhere they'd park way out in the empty area of the parking lot and walk!

explorerx4 · January 2009

the possible upside to that for us folks here in the northeast is that maybe more will be made available for retail sales.

gagrice · January 2009

It surprises me that NYC cab drivers can get up enough speed to roll one. I think a lot of it is political. The cab company is bucking Bloomberg's mandate for hybrid cabs. I just like to twist Larry's tail. He can be so anal about SUVs.

jimbres · January 2009

It's sort of funny that I should stick up for SUVs. I don't particularly like them - not because they're "environmentally irresponsible" (whatever that means) - but because they're just not fun to drive. My preferred poison is a fast sports sedan - preferably German & with 3 pedals on the floor - that I can push through a sharp curve at 25 mph over the posted limit. If I can't have that, I'd rather ride the train.

But I can't sit still when someone claims that everyone who buys an SUV is an unhappily married bad driver. There's about as much real science behind that claim as there is behind the horoscope column in your local weekly classified ad throwaway. That's the kind of thinking that I'd expect from evolution-denying religious nuts.

If you ask 25 people why they bought a particular car or truck, you'll probably get at least 20 different answers. People are complicated.

dave8697 · January 2009

I took a friends advice and got my younger son a Sonoma. The reason was only one other teen could also be in the car, lowering peer pressure to show off by doing something foolish. The egging on is greatly reduced and they can haul their stuff off to college later on. With his misbehaving, though, he can't have it for almost another year. I use it to commute. It has the 4.3, ext cab, and auto but manages very close to 24 mpg. Kids don't take care of their cars anyway. My older son was given a Mustang at 16 and he washed it once a year and waxed it only once in almost 4 years. He comes back from college with 3 month old bird crap on the front hood.

The oldest was getting a break on insurance when he didn't have his car at college. This year he has it there and insurance almost tripled. I now pay $545 a year for liability only on a '99 for him. When he first got his liscence, I found out that a 16 yr old on any car with full coverage was $2400 a year, so the kids don't get newer cars that need full coverage. Especially if they don't take care of them.

nippononly · January 2009

everybody is hapy they kept their SUV, eh?! Big shocker there. :-P

Surely we are not going to reopen the vitriolic IDLSWDY thread here under a new name?

My fill-ups are back over $20 in my car, but not by much. Even the big-truck people are only spending $40-50 each time, they have to be pretty content.

stever · January 2009

Surely we are not going to reopen the vitriolic IDLSWDY thread here under a new name?

Bite your tongue. :P

boaz47 · January 2009

"Is that rhetorical or do you really want an answer? "

Because I have both types of vehicles I would like to know. It has never concerned me one bit what others drive or what people in other countries drive. I am secure in my choices. Oh I have fallen into trends now and then and at one time even bought designer jeans. But if my neighbor bought a Ford and I had a Chrysler I never had a second thought as to what was better for me. I have never understood the red cape syndrome of small car owners and tree huggers when it comes to SUVs.

When I had my sail boat I understood the ribbing stink potters, power boaters, had for rag baggers. But that wasn't borderline pathological like the dislike some have for SUVs and Pick-ups.

So what is it that makes small car people dislike what someone else buys? I for one don't care what someone else drives, what size house they live in or how many ATVs they own. If they worked for the money and can afford a Peterbuilt to drive to work, more power to them.

gagrice · January 2009

He comes back from college with 3 month old bird crap on the front hood.

I think you are seeing a common trait with those that get a vehicle for nothing. My son was the same with the two different vehicles I bought him. Until someone works to buy their own they will not appreciate it. Even then many don't care. If they got easy money working in the family business etc. I like the idea of a small PU. I bought my son a 1994 Toyota PU and he pretty well trashed it in 5 years.

larsb · January 2009

If you want a small car with a high clearance, buy a Subaru PZEV Outback.

If you want a hybrid with a high clearance, buy an FEH.

And any car can be slightly lifted for usually less than $1500.

There are cars which solve those problems.

larsb · January 2009

Ford could solve that problem by making a hybrid Crown Vic.

Now that they have the FEH and the FFH, the technology is "in house."

hpmctorque · January 2009

"Ford could solve that problem by making a hybrid Crown Vic."

Maybe hybrid or diesel Crown Vics, or, even better, diesel hybrib Crown Vics, would be the way to go for big city cabs. And a Lincoln Town car counterpart might make a good limo.

gagrice · January 2009

If you want a small car with a high clearance, buy a Subaru PZEV Outback.

I actually like the looks of that vehicle. However it only gets 17 MPG in the city. To give up the comfort and room of the Sequoia for 2 MPG makes very little sense. When they bring in the diesel Outback I will take another look if I have not bought my final vehicle by then. I just do not like the Escape and you already know they are horribly over priced. I don't like getting screwed buying a vehicle.

gagrice · January 2009

So far no one has built a large vehicle with hybrid that is worth looking at. I don't see 3-4 MPG improvement worth $10k or more. That is strictly for eco weinies wanting people to believe they are environmentally astute.

nippononly · January 2009

However it only gets 17 MPG in the city

Actually, it's 20. 18 for the turbo.

http://www.subaru.com/

gagrice · January 2009

My only interest was in the Outback wagon with the 6 cylinder. It requires Premium which is another black mark against it. Cannot imagine a vehicle that big and heavy with a screaming 4 cylinder. Not my idea of a pleasant cruise down the highway listening to Rachmaninov. 2009 Outback has a worse pollution score than my 07 Sequoia. I see nothing convincing me to give up my SUV. That outback getting 40 MPG out on the highway is possible. The race is on and I am getting more in the mood to buy a diesel SUV. Now just waiting till Spring when VW brings a diesel SUV to our shores.

stever · January 2009

Heh, I don't feel like I'm in all that big and heavy of a vehicle when I'm cruising around in my Outback with all the horse trailer towing rigs around here.

boaz47 · January 2009

well I believe the Forester would be a better choice even though it is only 10 inches shorter than a 4runner. But you have obviously never tried to get the parts to lift a IFS vehicle. In all the years I have been exploring old ghost towns and silver mines in the So Cal high and low desert I can't ever remember seeing a outback on the roads we travel. some of them are class three jeep trails I admit but not all. Then again how easy would it be to get a low range in an outback? I don't think the recommend towing with one either. And the outback is about the same size as a Camry. No longer considered a small car. A camry looks like a Crown Vic next to my old Pontiac 4 banger. By the way an outback is only .2 inches shorter than a 4Runner.

oldfarmer50 · January 2009

"...It surprises me that NYC cab drivers can get up enough speed to roll one..."

You've got to be kidding, right? Those guys are insane. Driving through Manhattan is like a drag-race combined with a demo-derby.

tankbeans · January 2009

Hello all.

First let me say that I don't care what anybody drives or how much they choose to spend on it. It isn't my business. I don't hate SUVs, I don't like SUVs. I don't need one so I don't care. One thing that bothers me is when I am at an intersection, no semiphore, and I'm trying to turn and a person in an SUV decides they can't see and they inch forward so I have to inch forward more to see around them, and they keep inching like they need the extra space to see oncoming traffic. Not meaning this as an attack to anyone just an observation. I don't like being behind them on the freeway because again I can't see, so I pass them and hope not to offend them.

Let it be known that a couple of years ago, I've been driving less than 5, I was considering a Blazer to replace my Aerostar. My Aerostar was porcine and it was overly thirsty. 10 mpg only, I thought the Blazer might be good for 20mpg, but I never got it so I can't say. I instead got a 91 LeSabre with the 3.8 and loved it.

Which leads me to something else. Somebody inquired about insurance for teens. I'm 20 and I've had my license since I turned 16. I had to pay me own insurance and that was $195 for the van per month with a crappy company. Then when I got my LeSabre it went to $105 per month with AmFam. After my LeSabre I got a 95 Accord, which needed full coverage as I was making payments and that was $145 per month. Now I have an 03, full coverage, and before my mom and I changed our policy cost $160 per month, full coverage $500 deductibles.

If I'm confusing I apologize, but I wanted to chime in.

explorerx4 · January 2009

can you see anything when you are driving behind a minivan?

tankbeans · January 2009

No. I may have been too general about SUVs. I don't like being behind big vehicles, but I'm not going to condemn them or buy one myself for the sole purpose of being able to see around as I wouldn't need it for any other reason. I grew up with the attitude don't buy more than you need.

That being said if I was ever faced with the decision mini-van or SUV as my only options the SUV would win hands down. After driving a van I don't want to do it again. They're ugly, mostly bought by families with one child, another observation, and they're difficult to feed. SUVs are thirsty too, but at least they aren't uglier than sin, in my opinion. I kind of like Exploders myself, but don't need one so don't care.

boaz47 · January 2009

You know I think you are pretty much the norm. Most people don't care what someone else drives they simply care about what works best for them. The only peer pressure I ever got on buying a SUV verses a Pick-up or Mini Van wasn't from one of my peers it was from my son. He pleaded with me not to get a mini van because if I would have ever driven him to school his friends would think I had to drive his moms car. My wife wouldn't drive a mini van so if we had two cars and one was a mini van I would have driven it.

There is a segment of our society that does believe they have the right or duty to determine what everyone else drives. They know best and everyone else just doesn't get why they shouldn't be consulted when we go to the dealership.

tankbeans · January 2009

If I were you I would have bought the ugliest minivan possible, with a decent reliability rating, just to spite my son. That's just me, I'm evil that way. Luckily I don't have kids yet. Can't afford them and not ready for them.

daddysangel · January 2009

I can understand the SUV creeping forward at the stop light when I want to turn right.

However, there is a 99.9% chance there will be somebody bigger in front of you irregardless of what size vehicle you drive. My `Nox is no slouch in the size department.

DA

scottinky · January 2009

i had one, a beautiful Nissan Armada. Lost 5500 dumping it when prices spked to get a Honda Odyssey. I wish I woudl have kept it. the money I lost could have paid
off my home equity loan, and I would still be driving the best vehicle I have ever had.
I would gladly trade the $250 a month I save in gas/payment for the quiet ride the big SUV had. Minivans are practical, but they suck, its like driving a toaster oven.

zoomzoomn · January 2009

Look. I realize that based solely on being green that my owning an SUV may seem totally selfish. You know what? I don't care. While it is used largely for commuting during the week, the weekends bring out the reason we purchased it. We have three kids, a boat and a large extended family. While we could do with less size, it would cramp our ability to do what we do. Add to that the fact that the smaller CUV's and such actually could have cost no less than the same and often more than our Armada did to purchase, the ONLY deficit in ownership ends up being the gas mileage and my carbon footprint. The former is not but by 2-4 mpg and the latter is mostly when it is used in normal commuting. That said, if they start bringing out hybrid versions of big SUV's that don't cost thousands more than the regular version, I'm all in. For now, though, it is what it is. For the record, I replaced my '03 Expedition for my '08 Armada during the gas price crisis.

stever · January 2009

Thanks for that report. At least you got a make/model that traditionally holds its value well so hopefully you'll do ok when it's time to trade.

scottinky · January 2009

doesn't really matter. i leased it through my business, and will be glad to walk away from it in 2 more years, from a fun to drive standpoint. Lets not kid ourselves, having had both an 08 Armada and now a minivan, the van kills the Armada in ease of use
and cargo hauling. getting in and out of that rig was a pain, and lifting my baby's car seat into the rear would have been a killer. storage behind the 3rd row seats couldnt accomodate a folded stroller or groceries like the van can, even when NOT folded.
I never had to haul more than 4 people so leaving the seats down in the Armada wasnt a big deal to me. If I were buying today, i would be getting a new Chevy Traverse, but when i buy next, I am getting a wagon.

tankbeans · January 2009

I may be behind the times, but was is a 'Nox?

I've never heard of it and I can't think of a car that would be abbreviated that way.

stever · January 2009

Chevy Equinox. :shades:

dave8697 · January 2009

My son did work a great internship last summer that required a dependable car and socked away about what I paid for the Mustang. He was willing to and did pay 2/3 of his dorm room upgrade this year and he bought himself a new computer for school. He treats it very different than his car. Nobody is allowed near it. And if a dvd of his gets touched, all hell breaks loose.

I find that I have to be the one who monitors the oil and coolant reservoir in his car. He did 9000 miles in the 10 weeks of summer and the car now has over 110k miles on it.

Are you happy you didn't sell your SUV?

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