Toyota 4Runner

pat84 · August 2003

Is it possible the fan is on backwards ? Trying to blow against the air coming in across the engine at speed may take a few HP.

4burb · August 2003

I got a price quote for my 00 4Runner from the toyotawarranty.com dealership. 7yr/100K Plat for $1020 I seem to recall. Took that quote to my local dealer where it is serviced and they sold it to me for the same price. You might try that with your local dealer.

corancher · August 2003

I don't know if that's possible, but I think it's highly unlikely. Easy to check for it, though, just by looking under the hood and watching which way the engine turns.

After talking with a friend I have refined my guess as to what's going on. Here's my scenario: The fan doesn't draw more than 1 HP or so, but the A/C compressor can draw something like 5-15 peak. On a hot day you've got the extra load of the compressor and an increased tendency (because of hotter air coming in to mix with the fuel) for knock. The lower the fuel octane, the worse this will be. So the engine computer is detecting the beginnings of knock and retarding timing, making the engine produce significantly less power and torque for a given throttle opening and RPM. To get the power you need, you have to push the pedal down significantly more, and the computer needs to shift the transmission down a gear and use higher RPMs to get the needed torque at the driving wheels. Under this scenario your behavior would qualify as "normal," and you would still have almost all of your normal horsepower, especially if you burn premium.

This would explain a significant apparent "softness" in throttle response and selection of a lower gear, but only a modest decrease in peak HP. I don't recall if your experience was of this softness and lower gear selection, or whether you were really way down on peak horsepower, even if you were willing to use all of the throttle.

In any case, it looks like a tough thing to understand without data logging.

Thanks for putting up with my speculation. Anybody else got theories to advance?

rentschl · August 2003

corancher,

My feeling was also: how could the fan take so much power? Although an other poster mentioned something about having a viscous fan clutch fail on a GM SUV in a mode that it was always locked. He said that it took a huge amount of power away.

One thing I should have mentioned: the dealer hooked up the OBD II and it appeared that everything was fine on my 4Runner (as far as everything it reports/logs).

The other thing is that the sound of that fan spinning faster than normal is very distinct and correlates perfectly with the loss-of-power condition. When I hear the fan, I have the loss of power in all cases and visa versa.

However I don't want to fall into the trap of jumping to conclusions either.

I talked a little about what gets logged by the computer with the mechanic. He seemed to think that if there were anything wrong with the engine managment that something would have been logged and shown up.

As far as the bad gas theory, I haven't been able to change the vehicle's behavior through many tanks of gas (both 87 and 91 octane) from various different gas stations on the CO Front Range.

As far as why the clutch seems more locked when you start up, your "fluid settling" theory sounds plausable.

As far as the "fan in backwards" idea, I know it's going the right way in my case. Also, if a fan could be put in backwards, it would still blow in the correct direction anyway; the blades would just be curved such that the leading edge was convex instead of concave, causing a reduction in efficiency.

I wish I could get this all figured out and fixed so I could quit obsessing over it.

In the mean time it's very helpful to get everyone's ideas/opinions from this forum.

-Eric

qualityman · August 2003

The hole is slightly back and left of the tracking the sunroof rolls back and forth on. If you look at this location on the driver's side you'll see a bolt, which isn't on the passenger's side. There is however an opening for one, like it was left out on purpose. (I checked 6 other 4Runners at my dealer and they all were the same way.) The structure that affixes the sunroof assembly to the roof is the same color as the body. After almost two weeks my rattle returned, in a much less fashion I presume because the vinyl stripes worked loose over time. I'm going to insert a bolt/nut combination into the opening over the weekend to see if I can't make the "wedge" between the rail assembly and the mount structure more permanent.

kjack100 · August 2003

Sorry that I got that confused. That would be disconcerting if you got into your serviced vehicle and the seat back was reclined more than when you left it. Makes me think of the parking attendants in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off".

molocono · August 2003

Is it possible that Toyota might end up offering a rebate on SR5 4Runners equipped with the Appearance Package?

zeus258 · August 2003

Has anyone seen an 04 picture yet? I have no clue about how the new grill looks like.

Is it wise to wait for the 04 to appear in order to get a better 03 price or won't it make any difference besides a lower APR?

steveb84 · August 2003

In the Chicago Region, we have a $1000 or low APR on ALL 4Runners.

I don't expect the front grill to change for the 04's.

lgross · August 2003

Thanks

rentschl · August 2003

zues258,

You post caught my eye on the new grill.

If they did change the grill for '04 I wonder what their motivation was. Maybe it is associated with getting more airflow through the radiator. I'm speculating around my issue with "power loss with the fan kicking in".

Thoughts/comments from anyone???

Thanks,
Eric

zeus258 · August 2003

Build started first of August with shipment from Japan starting first of September. Should be in the dealerships in the middle of September.

Changes for '04:
Colors red and green are dropped
Charcoal seat on SE changed to stone
Color white now available on the Limited
3rd row seat for the SR5 and Limited, not SE
All cladding is now color keyed to car color.

The SE things:
Sport Package
(NH) X-REAS Shock Absorber
Silver Radiator Grille
Silver Door Handle/Rear License plate garnish
Color Keyed Heated Outside Mirrors

vodgut · August 2003

My guess is that the grille change for '04 is cosmetic. I think there's something else wrong with your vehicle with loss of power. Being in CO, too, with a V8 4Runner, I haven't noticed any loss of power on these hot days. Just a lot of extra fan noise.

keithandstef · August 2003

The dashboard in my 2003 4runner has some spots that are less glossy than others. This is on the main dashboard area. I've used Armor All, but it still looks different in this one spot (wish I'd noticed it before buying). Really only noticeable at an angle. Anyone else see this on theirs? Thanks! Sorry. This is a re-post, but I can't find my other posting.

tloke1 · August 2003

ARMOR All IS THE ABSOLUTE WORST PRODUCT TO USE ON ANY SURFACE!!!!
It has silicon inside it. This makes the surface shine and look new. It also acts as a magnifier for UV rays so it drys out and cracks dashes and promotes dry rot in rubber. Also it ATTRACTS dust. Last, the stuff is almost impossible to remove. To get it off you need to get a pile of cotton rags. Apply silicon remover to one, wipe it on the panel once in one direction. Throw it away and repeat with the next towel until its all removed. If you don't, you'll just move it around and not remove it. It will stay on for the life of the car with ONE application until removed with the above procedure. Scrubbing a panel with something like a green scrubby pad will only drive it further into the surface and make it nearly impossible to remove. If you are going to use a vinyl cleaner for the dash, etc. use one that has no silicon and has UV protectors in it, like wipes available from Mothers. A lot of people use Pledge with great success.

rogers12 · August 2003

The post about ArmorAll has enough falacies in it to hint of an Urban Legend. There is no way that silicone oil can magnify UV rays. At worst, it can absorb them. Many clear liquids absorb UV rays at some wavelength without any deleterious effect.

Also, I have had ArmorAll on my tires for as long as I can remember (at least 10 years) and the side walls last as long as the tread without any sign of dry rot.

I will not make any claims that ArmorAll is good for anything except shine, but it harms nothing. If silicone harmed rubber, silicone grease would not be used as a lubricant for rubber bushings.

Galileo757 · August 2003

Thanks Joebriun for the detailed description of the location of the oil filter and advise for the removal of the front skid plate and oil plug access door. I received more information on the I-force 4.7 V8 engine on this board, the V8 is a interference engine and my understanding of this is if the timing belt should break, the pistons will contact the intake/exhaust valves which in turn creates a rather large repair bill. Noninterference engine is just the opposite, the timing belt breaks which drives the cam shafts in turn times the intake and exhaust valve strokes with the pistons, no matter what position the valves are in, the pistons will not make contact with the valves.

<<The oil filter is underneath on the driver's side. You have to take off the front metal skid plate (there are two of them, 4 bolts each). I took off the second skid plate in order to get to the drain plug, then found the plastic door on the second skid plate, so you can get to the drain plug without removing the second skid plate. Don't know what a noninterference engine is, so can't help you there.>>

peter78 · August 2003

That's interesting, I would of thought that the V6 would be more likely to be a interference engine. You are right you do not want to have the timing belt break when you have a interference engine.

Here is a picture to better show a interference and non-interference engine.

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=981&location_id=52- 4

steve4runner · August 2003

Picked up a Sport V8 4x4 yesterday and drove 300 miles today. Impressions:

On the way up north I tried to vary my speed for break-in, but only 200RPM changed the speed by 10-12MPH in top gear. Before heading back I thought about the drive up and concluded that it was a smooth vehicle, but no match for the adrenal in my wife's Audi A6 2.7 biturbo produces. I also decided to do whatever it took to vary the RPM by forcing shifts on the way home(the heck with the gas mileage for now, FYI got 17MPG measured on the first 300 miles).

WOW, what a difference. It's a rocket and gives me very nearly the same uber-alles feeling that I get in the A6. The adaptive transmission nearly reads your mind and after a while you can make it shift almost when you want. The drive train combined with the X-Res really makes it interesting to drive on the highway, Can't wait to try some off-road driving. All in all a very unique, supremely versatile vehicle.

BTW many thanks to the 4Runner/Porsche Trailer poster who thought X-Reas was great and deserved a careful comparison test (with/without, same engine, a V8). Initially I couldn't tell much difference so I was going to buy the cheaper SR-5. After my own with/without test I sprang for the Sport Edition. Sure glad I did and I'm also glad I got the V8 with it's terrific new transmission and full time 4 wheel.

Hope this helps other performance oriented drivers make a good choice. If only the steering was a bit quicker in the SE, I'll bet it could nearly become a cult performance car.

BTW2 The runner up to the 4Runner for me was the Mitsubishi Evolution believe it or not. Ultimately the practical advantages of an auto xmission won me over, but boy was a close call, the Evo is amazing. After today's drive I'm pretty sure I made the right choice. Seems I got some very interesting performance in a practical, versatile package.

sivi1 · August 2003

i have used armor all on my 94 mbenz and my 95 maxima since i bought the cars new. both dashes look like new and there are no cracks. please explain your expertise?

tloke1 · August 2003

A friend of mine owns a detail shop and you won't find a bottle of Armor All anywhere in the building, it's the last thing they would use he says. FIND me ANY professional detail shop that uses Armor All on dashboards, especially shops who deal in luxury or show cars. Search the internet for detail shops and you'll find every product used for interiors EXCEPT Armor All.

There is no question that it attracts dust, one of its major drawbacks. Who wants a product that attracts dust to the interior of their cars? Who wants a product that make their dashboards overly GLOSSY, inviting glare from the windshield? It is greasy and difficult to remove. Do you want dirt sticking to your tires after you shine them? No thanks, I'll stick to products that are proven to be much much better.

Show me a list of professional detailers that use and/or recommend Armor All for dashboards, I bet it will be tough to find ANY at all. Check out some of the Detailing message boards and see how many people use that product. Look through auto enthusiast boards and see how many people complain about dashboards that brown and other problems from using it. I see NO REASON at all to use a product such as Armor All when their are BETTER products out there.

keithandstef · August 2003

Thanks for the info on Armor All. I've never had issues with it damaging anything (on my Mazda MX-6), but there seem to be better option. NOW, back to the ranch, has anyone noticed a slight variation in their 4Runner dashboard finish? This one section on mine over by the passenger just sounds diferent when I rub my hand across it, and from an angle it looks less glossy. A shining agent will not fix it. Can the dealer "buff" the dash in thi splace to be more like the rest?

Galileo757 · August 2003

Just for comparison of the 1998 V6 4wd Ltd and 2003 V8 4wd Ltd, IMO.

2003 pro:
V8.
great handling.
smother over road bumps.
larger interior and exterior.
larger fuel tank 23 verses 18 gallons.
finally hood actuator and not a prop rod.
rear seat arm rest.
115v AC outlet.
garage door opener.
eye glass compartment.
softer leather seats.
front seats has more lumbar support.
side air bags & curtain.
close to selling price of 1998.
MPG/distance display.
compass & auto dimming rear mirror.
filtered interior air.
4 wheel disc brakes.
power assisted rear door latch opener/closer.
running board lights? (not much of a factor)
No power antenna.
standard equipment, full tank of gas.
standard equipment alarm and remote doors opener.
Toyota nation customer service representatives.

2003 con:
low electric window switches.
all time 4 wd.
lower front seat head room.
3 pod design dash.
recommended 91 octane fuel.

Wish list:
oil pressure & battery voltage gauges.
get rid of the port distributor option/charges.
improved sales experience.

rsholland · August 2003

2003 con:
all time 4 wd.

Full-time 4WD is one of the best features of the new 4Runner, IMO.

Bob

corancher · August 2003

Seems like we've got a case of the frequent confusion between silicon (an element that's a principal component of sand and glass and microchips) and silicone (a rubber compound). Keeping them straight will help you search for information on the right one.

If you search discussions in "maintenance and repair" you'll get a variety of opinions. There have been quite a few reports that the Armor All formulations of some years back would produce a shiny, slick surface, and that the protective effects were nil or negative. Many claim that the current formulation is significantly improved, but not the best protectant out there.

One of the best-liked protectants for rubber, vinyl, fiberglass, etc. is 303. I believe its full name is 303 aerospace protectant or something like that. I've had good luck with it, and it can even out the appearance of a vinyl dash without addng too much gloss. The site for this product describes (their claims anyway) the protective mechanisms, including absorbing UV in a sacrifical way.

stever · August 2003

I like 303 but am going to try the Vinylex stuff from Lexol when I run across it.

303 is a bit hard to find - whitewater shops will have it (used on drysuit gaskets), and spa shops often have it for maintaining hot tub vinyl covers. I don't think I've ever seen it in auto parts stores around here.

Steve, Host

rogers12 · August 2003

No problem finding it with a Google search.

BTW, the cracking in rubber tires (dry rot) has been most often blamed on ozone. Tires are not subject to UV degradation owing to the carbon black in the rubber.

terrafirma · August 2003

The slight color variation and sound difference in the passenger side dash maybe from the airbag underneath.
That portion of the dash is molded thinner and plyable for the passenger airbag to come out of. This might be the cause although I have not noticed it in mine. I can hear the difference when tapping on the dash when I get to the airbag.

If you notice, Toyota has made the dash totally seamless and intergrated the airbag into the dash without the ugly hole with plastic plate covering or molded lines in the material.

sivi1 · August 2003

i would still like to know why my 10 and 9 year dashes are not falling apart because of this "junk armor all" and not a bunch of mish mash about your buddy who details cars! a mbenz rep asked "who detailed my benz",and i told him i did.

terrafirma · August 2003

tloke1- "ARMOR All IS THE ABSOLUTE WORST PRODUCT TO USE ON ANY SURFACE!!!!
It has silicon inside it. This makes the surface shine and look new. It also acts as a magnifier for UV rays so it drys out and cracks dashes and promotes dry rot in rubber. Also it ATTRACTS dust. Last, the stuff is almost impossible to remove."

This is all crapola unless it can be substantiated. I don't like the shine so I don't use ArmorAll but I've never heard of it causing damage.
As for attracting dust, the rubbing action causes that. Same as when you wax your car, the friction causes the attraction.

tloke1 · August 2003

Sivi1 said:
"I would still like to know why my 10 and 9 year dashes are not falling apart because of this "junk armor all"

Maybe you are lucky, maybe the dash materials are better in your vehicle, maybe Armor All doesn't crack any or all dashes. Your dash may not be falling apart, but it's greasy, too shiny and probably has a lot of dust on it, unless you wipe it every single day.

The "look" of Armor All on a dash reminds me of the "obviously overdone" treatment you see on cheap used car lots. The dash has that "cover up the flaws" shiny look, just like the tires they paint that you can see your face in. To me, the first thing I think of at a car show when I see the "Armor All-ed" vehicles is that they just came from a used car lot and one of the salesman detailed them between customers.

Sivi1 said:
"a mbenz rep asked "who detailed my benz",and i told him i did."

What does this prove? What detail experience and knowledge would a typical car salesman have? Most (but not all) know very little about the basic features and functions of the vehicles they are selling, let alone information about professional car detailing.

To each his own, if you like the look and feel of Armor All then by all means continue to use it. It is difficult to find many people that like it, most it seems have very little good things to say about it.

Armor All dries out fast and requires constant re-application if you want to retain that "cleaned-up used car look". There are certain parts of the interior you do not want to get it on as it is such a pain to remove from anything. In my opinion, and that of so many others, there are BETTER alternatives.

spgfr · August 2003

I'm testing a 2000 4Runner (55k miles) and noticed a constant vibration in the transfer case shifter when under way. Is this normal for a 4Runner? It's more noticable when accelerating and cruising than when decelerating, and occurs in both 2- and 4wd modes - worst at about 1800 rpm.

olrocker · August 2003

Doesn't the V8 have a timing CHAIN?

peter78 · August 2003

It is my understanding that the 4.7 V8 has a timing belt and the new 4.0 V6 has a timing chain. If you go to the site I have a link to about interference engine and if you click on "timing belt replacement guide" it will show the 4.7 V8 Tundra as a timing belt AND that it is a interference engine. The 2003 4Runner is not in the guide, but the Tundra 4.7 is the same engine in the new V8 4Runner.

(The replacement guide says to replace the 4.7 V8 timing belt at 90,000 miles.)

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=981&location_id=52- - 4

tidester · August 2003

It also acts as a magnifier for UV rays so it drys out and cracks dashes and promotes dry rot in rubber.

The layer of ArmorAll is simply too thin to produce any magnification by refraction. Look elsewhere for explanations of perceived problems.

tidester, host

nippononly · August 2003

it is normal for the transfer case shifter to vibrate as much as the transmission shifter, but of course the transfer case lever is shorter so it will be more apparent to your hand...they will both vibrate a little, as they are a direct connection to the transmission and engine...

spgfr · August 2003

I've never owned a Toyota 4wd before, so I don't know what's normal. However, I've driven lots of Toyota 2wd stick shifts, and the level of vibration I'm getting from the xfer case would be unacceptable in a 2wd. BTW, the vehicle I'm testing is an automatic.

Thx for your comments.

sivi1 · August 2003

i said mercedes rep (representative) NOT salesman and i think he knows a little bit more about cars than you! also used armor all on my 96 4 runner and got top dollar on trade in, sure did not hurt it after 6 years.

tloke1 · August 2003

Mercedes Rep, Mercedes salesman, SAME thing - if he sells cars he's a SALESMAN (or "Sales Person"). THIS week he is selling MB's, last week he was probably moving Fords or Kia's.

dmetzger · August 2003

I have used ArmorAll for years and never once have had any kind of problem from using it. I have a T100 that I have been using since Jan. 1996, and it is left out side at work, in the heat and sun and shows no signs of any brake down on the dash or anywhere else.
I have heard some bad things about using ArmorAll, but all I can tell you that I have not had one problem over the last 25 years of using it.
I am using Mequirs product on my wife vehicle, just because of some of the bad press on ArmorAll, and I like Meguirs products.

John_1 · August 2003

From a Toyota press release, dated 8/18/2003:

All-new in 2003, for 2004 the popular 4Runner adds a tire pressure warning system as standard equipment on all models. Additional features include an available third-row seat on Limited and SR5 models, providing seven-passenger capability. All 4Runners will also feature a back-up camera monitoring system on the optional navigation system. When the 4Runner equipped with the navigation system is in the reverse mode a video camera mounted in the rear door automatically displays a wide-angle view behind the vehicle to assist the driver in safely pulling out of parking lots or garages.
The SR5 grade 4Runner will carry a base MSRP ranging from $27,170 for the 4x2 V6 with a four-speed automatic transmission to $30,695 for the 4x4 V8 with a five-speed automatic, representing an increase of $115, or 0.4 percent. Prices for the SR5 Sport model will range from $28,410 for the 4x2 V6 with a four-speed automatic, to $31,935 for the 4x4 V8 with a five-speed automatic, an increase of $190, or 0.7 percent. The premium Limited grade 4Runner will carry a base MSRP ranging from $33,445 for the 4x2 V6 with a four-speed automatic to $36,970 for the 4x4 V8 with a five-speed automatic, an increase of $190, or 0.5 percent.

deanders · August 2003

It's about time they got the tire pressure system, my brother has that on his vehicle and it is really a nice feature. I wonder if it is a cheap version with just warning chimes or if it actually has a display readout of the actual pressures?

The back-up camera system is an awesome feature, have seen that on other cars. As for the 3rd row seats, sales hype is all that is as most likely they will be barely large enough to hold a couple of 3-year olds.

rodut · August 2003

Ricadrias, why you thought to trade your 03 4Runner for a Honda Pilot ? I drove both and I liked the 4 Runner a lot.

Thanks

rlopez2032 · August 2003

Fellow Owners,

Just received this letter from Toyota today about this special campaign. It was explained on the letter that "on certain 2003 model year vehicles, an electrical contact in the throttle body motor may malfunction. If this occurs, the Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) will illuminate on the dash, and the engine ECM will store a trouble code and place the vehicle on a "limp-home" mode". They further added that in California, where emission requirements are more strict than others, this could result in a failure in a smog test. However, they stated that Toyota will inspect the car and replace the throttle body assembly at no cost.
Did anybody else receive this notice. I am not that mechanically inclined so all this info is foreign to me. How serious is this issue? Should I be worried about possibly driving to work or home in "limp-home" mode if I do not get this fixed soon?
Any opinion would be much appreciated.

Thanks

nedzel · August 2003

I haven't heard of anyone here having the problem yet. But I would get it fixed as soon as reasonably possible. Toyota would not have sent you the notice if they did not think the problem could occur on your truck. So it will likely be less trouble to get it fixed before it happens than to wait until it does happen.

pat84 · August 2003

I had my recalled sun visors without mirrors replaced yesterday. These new sun visors have mirrors about 1 1/2 x 4 inches with a plastic slide that covers them on each visor. They aren't lighted and are so cheap looking, they look like they came from a Chevy Cavileer. I know they are Toyota. I have been driving for 42 years and have owned and rented 100s of cars. These are the fattest sun visors I've ever seen
My 03 Sport 4Runner was finished and waiting for pick up for 15 minutes before Mr. Silver Team decided he could bring my keys and ticket over. The cashier tried to give me a ticket for $5 off my next oil change. (They add shop charges to that oil change so it comes out to the same cost as without the ticket )
My dealer is so bad he gives a wonderful vehicle like my 4Runner a bad name.
I am going to the next closest Toyota dealer.

terrafirma · August 2003

Yes the visors are fat but I think they feel solid and high quality. I thought the sliding cover for the mirror was a nice touch.

Most visors are cardboard wrapped fabric so the 4Runner's are nice. They come with that additional flip down visor so you can block the side window and windshield at the same time.

I think as far as visors go they are very nice.

newgrad · August 2003

Finally! Some new info. on the '04 models. Glad to see the addition of some new features, especially the back-up camera. It's about time Toyota added some kind of back-up assist to their SUV's. I know I would have liked to have had that option available on my 2000. Same goes for the tire pressure monitoring system; however I think that is a result of the TREAD Act that was passed a few years ago--it requires all 2004 passenger vehicles to be equipped with some type of tire pressure warning system...it'd be cool if they also added a built in air compressor like in the new VW Touareg--no need to air up the tires at the gas station anymore!! It'll also be interesting to see how that 3rd row looks...

cliffy1 · August 2003

The third seat looks... crowded. They also deleted red and green which means we are left with black, white silver and three different shades of blue.

claymore1 · August 2003

Took a look at the 2004 brochure at the Toyota dealership.
It showed me all the changes already mentioned except for the following:

Charcoal colored seats available on Sports Edition.
The only model that will have the camera is the Limited because it is the
only one with the NAV system. That is what the brochure shows - that you
can not get the nav system and camera without buying the limited..

Toyota 4Runner

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