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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    CNG and Propane are not related. Other than they can both be used as fuel. The pressure involved with CNG is much higher and more hazardous. That is why tank certification is required by law every 3 years.

    We used to have 2 CNG places in my area. They both quit selling. Only private sources now. We have propane sales at almost all gas stations around here. Lots of people set up PU trucks to use Propane and regular gas. Not at all like a CNG or LNG conversion.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Propane around here is expensive - more so that natural gas for sure.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I would want a Phil station or whatever they call those.

    Would be nice to never visit a gas station with that vehicle...ever.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Last I read the company that makes PHIL is in bankruptcy. I am not sure I would want one in my garage. It does take several hours with one to fill the Civic tank. I think the EV charger is a safer option.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, lots of pressure, but I'm sure there are safety measures built-in.

    There are 2 EV stations in my garage, and I also saw one at the Marriott last night where we had dinner. They are becoming common, at least here in the DC area.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082882_breaking-co-founder-henrik-fisker-le- aves-fisker-automotive-struggling-electric-car-firm
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm waiting for Elon to fire himself.

    Tesla Model X Launch Delayed Until Late 2014
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    He has way too much pride to wait for himself to fire himself, he would tell himself he quit well before that could ever happen. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/21/numbers-dont-lie-plug-in-sales-ahead-of-ear- ly-hybrid-sales/
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Anyone want to bet on how much he skimmed off on the deal? Thanks to Obama's GREEN AGENDA. That is the gubmint way, take the money and run.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    With 3 times the subsidy from the tax payers. C'mon that is hardly an apples to apples comparo. Last year you could get $7500 from the Feds and $5000 from CA. Making the Leaf a pretty good deal if you had a commute it would fit.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Tesla currently is accepting reservations for the Model X on its Web site. The base Model X requires a $5,000 deposit, while the uplevel Model X Signature requires a $40,000 deposit. Tesla has not posted official pricing on the Model X. The deposits are fully refundable, according to the Web site.

    My uncle put a refundable deposit on a Tucker. When they went belly up he got a Tucker Radio in the bankruptcy. Wonder what that would be worth today? If I knew him he gave it to the Salvation Army.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    Seriously? One sold on eBay had one per the Auto Channel, but I don't see a price. There's a '48 Tucker heater on eBay right now, starting bid $199.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My uncle would pull out his Tucker Radio to show anyone that was interested. Sounds like someone got a heater for their deposit. If any company goes bankrupt the likelihood of getting any money invested or put down on deposit is slim. I have lost my share on GREEN companies. A fairly long list of hopeful winners. So far I am batting ZERO on Green stocks. ECOB, GSPI, ZAAP. From here on out I will leave the Green Crappola to those with more money than brains.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    $7500 is the maximum, newer plug-ins with less battery capacity don't qualify for that much.

    MD offers up to $2000, is it really up to $5k in Cali?

    Considering they had rolling black outs not too long ago, that's kind of odd. Of course you can program them to charge off peak.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Just no place to fill up.

    "The CNG technology in the European Fiat Panda could transfer to U.S. Fiat brand models."

    Fiat May Bring Natural-Gas Cars to the U.S.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The guy I talked to with a Leaf told me he got $5k from CA. According to the website it is now $2500 and going fast. I think it is a direct rebate and not a tax credit. Which is even more expensive.

    http://energycenter.org/index.php/incentive-programs/clean-vehicle-rebate-projec- t
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    There's not much difficult in building a CNG car or truck, but the fuel availability and the tank size are issues.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2013
    That's a lotta meat-a-ballsa.

    They need to phase these out and maybe replace them with perks, so it costs less but still provides an incentive. HOV lane access (already in use in some places) and cheaper parking, perhaps.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    EVs and CNG cars get full HOV access. Plugin hybrids get limited HOV. The hybrid HOV access was phased out a couple years ago.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I guess it becomes too much of a good thing and the lanes get crowded.

    Around here, VA had it but I also think it was phased out.

    There are proposals to close Beach Drive, I think it would make sense to leave it open only to HOV and greenies.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2013/03/15/obama-to-announce-2-- billion-plan-to-get-u-s-cars-off-gasoline/

    call for $2-billion energy security trust fund dedicated to research to boost automobile efficiency, enhance battery technology and expand the use of biofuels, among other clean-energy efforts. The ultimate goal: getting the country off oil
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Trying to make Bartlesville a ghost town?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I doubt that'll happen, but at least they can offset an increase in energy demands. Maybe.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    No 'maybe' about it, it's already happening, coupled with long term increases in US oil and gas production.

    I question the basic assumption that eliminating gasoline is worthwhile. The only way to substitute biofuels is through massive increases in farming, and we've already seen the ecological disaster that is ethanol and biodiesel from the tropics.

    Be careful what you wish for...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2013
    The only way to substitute biofuels is through massive increases in farming, and we've already seen the ecological disaster that is ethanol and biodiesel from the tropics.

    Be careful what you wish for...

    It would seem to me the only logical source of biofuel is Algae. It can be grown where nothing else can. The per acre production is 100s of times for Corn ethanol. And Very little of the green agenda cash is being spent on R&D for biodiesel. Too many eco nuts think they can overcome the laws of physics.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "I can see the day when the 3 and 4 Series will be powered by three-cylinder engines with electric boosting for low revs.

    "The combination will be exciting with the low-speed torque of electric power and then that is taken over by the high-end performance with gas engines. It's exciting for us."

    BMW Plans More Plug-In Hybrids, Gas Engine Overhaul

    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Tiny, low revving engines don't sound like a recipe for fun. You have to wonder if BMW is getting too far ahead of themselves. That would make a Prius look like a sports car.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    BMW has to do something. They don't have enough cars that get great mileage to compensate for the gas hogs they like to sell. I wonder with the mileage mandate, do you have to sell any or just offer them to get the credit?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    CAFE is a sales weighted average, so they have to sell.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I guess it becomes a financial decision. Do you sell the high mileage cars at a loss to keep from paying the fines?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    "Do you sell the high mileage cars at a loss to keep from paying the fines? "

    They do that now, Ford was rumored to be losing money on each Focus to meet CAFE. Welcome to the party, BMW!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It will be tougher for the lux brands than it is for, say, Kia or Mazda. Those already sell a lot of compact cars, and at a price where the customer doesn't expect tons of performance.

    I wonder if BMW wouldn't be better off putting the i cars under the MINI brand?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Tesla says it turned profitable as Model S sales beat forecast

    Shares rise 16% for the day, reach record high

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130401/OEM05/130409997/tesl- a-says-it-turned-profitable-as-model-s-sales-beat-forecast&cciid=email-autonews-- daily#ixzz2PFMQZtpB
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    At the same time, they've axed the 'cheap' model. So much for an 'affordable' Model S:
    http://jalopnik.com/laptesla-kills-the-50-000-model-s-makes-the-media-the-464831- 618
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So they dumped the $60k base Tesla. I would expect somewhere around $75k would be the cheapest Tesla sold. I will wait to see the EPS when they file their SEC report. I am not enough of a gambler to put money in their stock, on CEO spin. Most of their stock is held by institutions.

    The top-of-the-line Tesla Model S Performance model costs nearly $96,000. The base Model S, which Tesla is dropping, has a starting price of just over $60,000.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2013
    No profit at the base price, at least not yet.

    Look at the Leaf, though. They were able to lower the price significantly after a while.

    Tesla doesn't have any economies of scale, probably never will. It's basically a car for celebrities to drive to red carpet events.

    There's a dealer in Miami on Lincoln Road, very nice store. I'm sure all the drug lords will get one. :D

    The dealer in DC is near Chinatown but they choose a horrible location, you barely notice they're there. Not a busy area. They should have built it in Georgetown or Bethesda, a more trendy 'hood.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Look at the Leaf, though. They were able to lower the price significantly after a while.

    Both the Leaf and Volt are selling below invoice to get them off the lot before the battery deteriorates. I am waiting for Tesla to make the official filing on EPS. Last quarter they lost $3.70 per share. It also looks like they pulling some financial wizardry to show a profit. Time will tell. I am not the Bull I once was on EVs. Lithium Ion batteries are a BIG disappointment for me.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If they sell at invoice that's the dealer cutting their margin. The manufacturer still gets the same amount.

    The outgoing model did have incentives, though, so they were giving some money back. Now they just lowered the price.

    Creative accounting would not be a surprise.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    Nissan may also be willing to take a loss to get them out the door and build some demand. Overall EVs are having a tough time in the market, and makers are backing off them. Better gas mpgs, more diesels, and hybrids all are cutting into the expected EV market.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    DI has done wonders for even base engines in some cars. At that point you get diminishing returns, given only a small % of your TCO is for fuel.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Looks like they dropped the smallest capacity battery since 96% of people wanted the bigger ones:

    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/01/tesla-model-s-demand-exceeds-expectations-4- 0-kwh-model-nixed/
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    Wellll - they never advertised them, or listed them as being available (see the Jalopnik article). I don't doubt they wouldn't make money on them, these are expensive cars to make, regardless.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It may have been the 20 mile range of the cheapo S? :P

    I like they way they are handling those cheap customers. Programming the computer to only give them the miles a base model was advertised for. Yet giving them the next level battery. They run out of juice and call in the dealer can sell them enough juice to get home and kick them up to the next model. That will be $10,000 service charge, plus tax.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    20 miles down hill on a warm day. ;)

    That's OK, my commute is 13 miles and work has charging stations. I'll take one of those unwanted ones off their hands for free.

    I'm an IT guy so I'll find some sort of hack.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/02/nissan-leaf-best-sales-month-2236-chevy-vol- t-1478/

    Leaf price drop sure got people's attention. Best month ever.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For an arm and a leg:

    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/02/tesla-revolutionary-lease-option-model-s-50- 0-month/
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    edited April 2013
    The Tesla lease calculator is hilarious, such weird things like valuing time not spent at a gas station at $100/hr. Almost kind of April-Foolsy, but they are serious. Also, basing resale on the S-class, which doesn't exactly retain a ton of value, is worrisome.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They should charge for the time spent looking for charging stations and waiting for the car to charge. ;)

    Plus, the numbers were wrong, they adjusted them slightly upward. Stock prices down, DOH!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    I was thinking the same thing. You can't meander up to a charging station like you can a gas station. Some goofy logic there.
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