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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That would go a long way towards getting more Americans to warm up to diesels.

    In fact, I bet it would draw people in to showrooms who may even buy more basic models, just as a halo car does in any showroom.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    Can't use that tagline any more.

    "Nissan is partnering with McDonald's, which will be installing quick chargers at its restaurants in Norway. Customers will be able to fast-charge their cars while they fill up on fast food.

    In a country of 5 million people, Norwegian buyers purchased more than 10,000 plug-in electrics last year. That's more than 5 percent of total vehicle sales, compared to .06 percent of both electrics and hybrids in the United States."

    Norway Loves the Nissan Leaf
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You can still go to McDonalds and get plenty of gas.

    Oh no I didn't. :D
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    That '.06 percent of both electrics and hybrids in the United States' is WAY off. Per WSJ:

    "2012 was a decent year for sales of alternative energy vehicles in the United States. Not a great year, but not bad. Sales of hybrids rose 61% over 2011 sales, and as a percentage of total sales, hybrid sales rose 13%. Overall, hybrid cars comprised 3% of total auto sales in 2012, according to hybridcars.com. That is up from 2.1% of all sales in 2011."
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    Bet he meant to say "electric vehicles".

    "Electric vehicles account for less than 1 percent of new-vehicle sales in the United States, according to LMC Automotive, J.D. Power’s automotive forecasting partner." (NY Times)

    Good catch.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Norway is smaller than CA and has about the highest priced gas in the EU. They tax the crap out of the people so the King can live in opulence. :shades:

    Sounds more like the USA every day. I wonder if they subsidize the electricity, making EVs more practical? Has to be a good reason.

    In addition, the country has about 3,500 public EV charging points, many of them free.

    Sounds like EVs are a no brainer if you live close to a free charging station.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I wonder what hybrids are selling? The Prius is off 22% from last year.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Good question. Maybe Prii will be well under invoice if and when we decide to buy. :shades:

    Interesting that California has 9 times the population of Norway. Looks like the GDP per capita is pretty close too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In my garage at work they offer electricity at 1/3rd the going local rate, so it's basically 67% subsidized. They do it to meet LEED platinum certifications.

    On top of that, when you sign up the first 10 hours of charging are free.

    On top of that, you get two of the best spots in the garage, right up near the elevators.

    I don't think most people can rely on those, however. Just a nice perk for some.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They still sold 22,140 of them. In a month.

    Audi diesels were down 49.35%. Ouch.

    I'm guessing it was the drop in gas prices, even though it was slight, people were no longer afraid. Also, DI and CVTs are making regular gas cars so efficient, many are probably asking why get a diesel or a hybrid at all?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    • Sales mix for Audi TDI clean diesel models finish the month at 23% for the A3 TDI and 26% for Q7 TDI. A3 sales in March 2013 were down substantially as the brand prepares for the arrival of the all-new A3 sedan in early 2014.

    The Q7 is a big money maker and it was up 48%. The dealers may not have any A3 inventory until the 2014 comes out. I don't see an A3 diesel in the state of CA for sale.

    http://www.audiusanews.com/newsrelease.do;jsessionid=541ECF0D333DA21E90BCC8E09EA- BEBF0?&id=3361&allImage=1&teaser=audi-u.s-sales-achieve-record-first-quarter-mar- ch&mid=1
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm guessing it was the drop in gas prices

    Plus we're all used to paying $4 at the pump now.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No inventory for 9 months? Seems like a crazy strategy.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think the A3 has ever been a big seller. They were probably surprised it sold so well with the TDI. The A4 with the same engine is sold in the EU. Better size. Not sure why they don't offer it and the A4 Allroad Quattro TDI.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Not sure why..."

    I read that they will.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the problem is the 2.0L TDI cannot pass emissions when you put it in a vehicle as heavy as the Tiguan or A4 Allroad. They could probably add urea injection. Not sure what that would do to the efficiency of the 2.0L diesel.

    They have both been sold in the EU for several years.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting, so we get the lighter cars.

    Same with Subaru's diesel. They teased a diesel Forester but never brought it.

    For buff crossovers like the Forester and Outback, a diesel option only seems natural.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    It comes down to sales volumes on all the diesels. With the tough US emissions regs most require the urea injection, which is a major added cost to design and install. Without a large sales volume it's just not worth it. MB has a large sales base for diesel. Subaru, Mazda, etc., not so much...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The ICE's ongoing relevance and dominance are heavily influenced by cost and availability. The ICE is already supported by an incredibly advanced global infrastructure, and that's an advantage that cannot be overstated. This vast network has set the bar very high for would-be alternatives such as battery EVs or hydrogen-fed fuel cell vehicles."

    Why the Internal Combustion Engine Is the Future
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yet Mazda is offering the 6 diesel, and surely they'll do far less volume than an Outback diesel would. By far, I'd guess.

    Subaru's diesel does not meet CARB emissions, though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It was about 20 years ago CA was going to flood the highways with EVs. We all know how that ended with 3000 crushed EV-1s. I think making the ICE, without all the heavy polluting batteries and electric motors, more efficient is the key to future success. With the main emphasis on biodiesel from non food sources.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/17/tesla-readying-fleet-of-80-model-s-evs-to-u- se-as-service-loaners/

    I think Lexus used that service idea before, where they pick up your car and drop off a loaner. Now that's service.

    Of course it ain't free, but these folks can afford it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I also read where they are outselling the other Lux models in the class. I am still waiting to see their SEC report showing a profit. Not a chance I would buy any TSLA stock. I think the market is very limited. Will 80 loaners be enough for every dealership around the World to have one? If you are 2nd on the list do they bring you a Corolla loaner? It sounds like a publicity stunt. Which I think they do a lot of. Put me down as a Bear on TSLA and EVs in general. I like the concept, not the execution so far. Remember I looked into converting my Ford Ranger to EV. Decided the cost was more than the gain.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    pick up your car and drop off a loaner

    I associate that service with Hyundai - Equus I guess.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    do they bring you a Corolla loaner?

    At least make it a hybrid. ;)

    Battery tech has hit a ceiling. We'll get diminishing improvements until they find some sort of break through.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Battery tech has hit a ceiling.

    To me that is the issue. I think they hit the ceiling with the NiMH technology. Lithium Ion batteries have not proven their long term abilities. From the smallest to the largest they have problems lasting as long as NiCad or NiMH. And they cost more. I have NiCad batteries still taking a good charge after 15 years of use in Makita drills. Problem is finding OEM quality replacements.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    All the laptop recalls for fires were Li-ion. Plus all the Fiskers that caught fire after Sandy, too.

    Li-ion need to be cooled. Anything goes wrong with the cooling system and it's almost like a HAZMAT, handle with care.

    They are lighter and store more energy, though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is the advantage. However there are many unhappy Leaf owners over diminished battery levels within a year. Will they come up with a fix???

    Ads for the 2013 Leaf model state that the vehicle can get the equivalent of 106 miles per gallon.

    Owner Randy Miller says he gets many less miles than he thought per battery charge. He says he was promised 100 miles. After just 15 months, he says he gets 67.3 miles per charge.

    Owner John Noble says he was promised his battery would have 80% life after five years. But he says it's already down 30% after 10 months.

    The ABC15 Investigators talked with three Valley owners who all say they can't drive where they want, because of battery issues.

    And they say that Nissan had done little to help. With a price tag of around $30,000, upset owners wanted action.

    http://www.abc15.com/dpp/money/consumer/alerts/Nissan-Leaf-car-owners-complain-a- bout-battery-wearing-down-prematurely-and-company-responds

    The new warranty is hardly worth much IMO

    Under the new warranty, Nissan will repair or replace a Leaf's battery within five years or 60,000 miles if it loses more than 30 percent of its charge capacity. For Leaf owners, that means the warranty kicks in if the 12-bar battery gauge falls under nine bars.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It will have the opposite effect - people will sabotage the battery trying to get it below 9 bars max.

    How? Draining it completely over and over is one way.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They need to only sell them in mild climates. Be up front if someone wants one in a hot place like AZ, CA or NV that all warranties on the battery is void. A class action suit will be found in favor of the car owners. Even 80% after 5 years is unacceptable. There are NiMH batteries in Prius going on 10 years and still working.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Up, CR tested a 10 year old Prius and the batteries performed like new.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2013/04/22/west-coast-cities-dominate-greenest-car-shopp- ers-list/

    Actually includes Washington. It's all those NGOs based here, I think. Or maybe EnviroCab and they're all fleet models.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Weird that Seattle isn't on the list, as I can't throw a cat around here without hitting a Prius/Leaf/Volt/Tesla etc - tons of Prius taxis and government fleet vehicles too.

    Then I can fire up the fintail and cancel out about 50 of them :shades:

    NGO, isn't that code for sucking down public funds, but doing it under the ruse of a private enterprise? ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    the fintail ... cancel out

    You knocked then down to 11th. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://youtu.be/LRBspDS4Wdw

    So you save $40 a day on gas, but how much would you make if you could drive those 30 minutes instead of waiting for a charge? I wonder if the cabbie ends up ahead or behind?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2013
    Not a chance I would buy any TSLA stock

    Me neither, it's too late anyway:

    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/23/tesla-stock-reaches-record-high-brushes-53/- -

    We've already missed the boat. 300% of the IPO price ain't bad...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Gov actually got some of the money back:

    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/24/fisker-execs-congress-hearing-doe-loan-repa- yment/

    This won't end well, though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I cannot imagine most people wanting to ride in the Leaf vs a Town Car Cab. They would have to offer half fares for tolerating the tight back leg room. Riding once as a novelty and waving them off after that would be me. Of course I hate riding in cabs and paying those outrageous fees. Cram me into a Leaf and charge $45 for a ride home from the airport.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I generally prefer the subway, but cabs aren't bad for NYC. If you can find one!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Tesla outsold the Volt and Leaf, wow....
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    Tesla high or Volt/Leaf low? I wonder about how real the Tesla numbers are - aren't they trying to make certain financial hurdles?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They also announced the loaner fleet, I wonder if those were included in the numbers?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    Low-Emissions Vehicles Are the Dirtiest You Can Buy

    Stick with SULEV II. And don't breathe orange air.

    image

    "Size doesn't matter. The diminutive 1.4-liter turbo engine in the Fiat 500 is certified as LEV II, which makes it dirtier than the mighty 6.2-liter Ford Raptor, which is certified to ULEV II."
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2013
    Get the Raptor for the environment. :D

    Are trucks given a softer standard to meet, though?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    Not anymore, per Wiki, which says:

    "The former Tier 1 standards that were effective from 1994 until 2003 were different between automobiles and light trucks (SUVs, pickup trucks, and minivans), but "Tier II" standards are the same for both types."
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    But per mile driven the raptor will still pollute more, this is the problem with the parts per million based emission standards, the raptor will produce more parts per million per mile than the fiat, so although it looks cleaner by the per million basis is it really when you consider the per mile emissions?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, if you look at grams per minute, the answer looks to be no.

    Emissions Test: Car vs. Truck vs. Leaf Blower

    It sounds like you're saying parts isn't parts?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,700
    Yep, Raptor's cleaner than the Fiat 500. ULEV-II vs LEV-II.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Well colour me impressed with the ulev-III standards then, I had always assumed since the parts per million basis was used, that if a car ( or truck ) burned more fuel per mile that it would put out more parts per mile, but I guess there is actually enough of a difference in the different levels of the emmisojns regulations to actually offset this difference, good on them I guess. But of course that doesn't mean that a ulev-III truck would be as clean as a ULEV-III car that used far less fuel, but I am still happily surprised by the results of your test.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    Surprised me too.
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