Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

fintail · April 2009

A base diesel C or 3er with gobs of low end torque and the ability for some suspension tuning would be well received, IMO. The BMW 335 diesel proves they can be sporty.

Turbo 4s can be very sporty, too.

However, it's the hybrids that don't seem to embrace that ideal, and that seems to be the movement of today. Maybe they can be tuned for something different. But the hybrid or weak electric globalized new world order transportation pod will be as devoid of soul as the societies wrought by those ideals themselves.

Overweight and overpriced isn't so bad for the used car shopper. Let the rich and foolish eat the depreciation.

fintail · April 2009

I think those stories about Japanese kids not liking cars might be written by westerners who hope their own youth rejects cars. Doesn't seem to be working. I have met few young people who shun driving, especially in NA where most public transportation grids are defective.

larsb · April 2009

fintail says, "People don't slow down due to becoming wise at a random age."

They do, indeed, do exactly that.

At some point, you realize the uselessness of speeding around everywhere and how ridiculous it is.

fintail · April 2009

It's over the top, but no more so than the oversized house that is the American definition of success, or any amount of other items. The question I have to imagine is who is to say what is excessive? The market can decide it, the public sector is not trustworthy IMO.

I don't see any mass market green cars today having much fun. I don't count the diesels, as they are still simple petroleum based products.

If the Orwellians have their way, there will be no point at attempting fun cars even with new style propulsion - cornering gs, acceleration times, etc will all be monitored and controlled by a central surveillance system and tracking of all vehicles 24/7. Go around a corner too fast, get sent to a re-education class. That's part of the new malaise.

fintail · April 2009

This isn't about simple speed, and there is nothing in the world linking it to wisdom. The LLCer is not a wise person.

My last post to you, Larry. Good day.

larsb · April 2009

Good day to you, also.

What is an LLCer?

stever · April 2009

stories about Japanese kids

Could be - I do happen to know two people my age (>55) who have never driven, one man, one woman. One lives in Seattle in fact. They seem to manage just fine.

(LLC = Left Lane Camper)

gagrice · April 2009

My sister lives in Seattle and has never owned a car. She is 52 and just recently married and lives on a sail boat. Has taught several years in China. Now she is back at the University teaching. I don't see how anyone could get by with just a bike in Seattle more than 4 days per year. We never talk about money. She has to have a bundle from all those years teaching. Always lives frugal.

fintail · April 2009

They must have plenty of free time (teachers, public sector union workers?), or nowhere to go and all day to get there.

Even with traffic I probably save more than a half hour a day by driving rather than using transit, and I am just under 4 miles from work. You'd have to be insane to bike my route, especially early mornings. And for errands like shopping, I can't imagine. For people I work with and who live in suburbs maybe 15 miles away to be able to afford a house - vanpool or car is the only way, transit would take hours. They might do well with a globalized transportation pod, but it's not like they are commuting in Excursions as it is.

nippononly · April 2009

However, it's the hybrids that don't seem to embrace that ideal, and that seems to be the movement of today

Just don't forget, all we have seen so far of alt powertrains is a tentative foray into the technologies available, and one or two variations on potential commercial applications.

Can hybrids be fast? The V-6 hybrid Accord was significantly faster than the straight V-6, and made better fuel economy at the same time! And that was then hybrids were in their infancy!

The all-electric Tesla is one of the fastest production cars available on the market today.

So don't forget these technologies are in their infancy, and let your imagination roam with them a bit. Also, don't forget that as "alt" powertrains become the norm, prices will come down and people won't expect just one thing from them any more. Like everyone expects a hybrid to be a Prius right now.

All we have seen so far is the very tiniest baby steps into these technologies. There is so much untapped potential for performance there, automakers just need the market to catch up first.

BTW, since many automakers right now are touting their new diesels as their answer to the green mandates of the new CAFE and GHG emissions standards, I consider diesels to be part of the green solution at least in the foreseeable future.

hpmctorque · April 2009

"Could a new malaise era be brewing?"

Interesting article and good comments. I have nothing to add, other than maybe we enthusiasts need to organize so that our views can at least be considered by our lawmakers. If all we do is gripe, nothing will change.

fintail · April 2009

I think it is normal for some hybrids to have better straight line acceleration, by a tiny margin anyway. But is this necessarily better performance? How did it handle compared to the the normal version? I assume the suspensions were identical. I think the E-class diesel outruns the normal 6, too.

I can't go nuts for the Tesla yet, I don't see anything to tell me it is a viable concern. And the big problem with that tech is power...where will it come from?

I see a public sector seeking more centralized control and regulation, I have to fear those factors will outpace technology and create a new malaise age, just like what happened about 35 years ago. Tech eventually caught up, but I don't know if it will again.

Of all the 'green' claims out there, I do like diesels the most.

fintail · April 2009

I know the vintage/specialty car hobby has some special interest organization to protect those vehicles from the wrath of ecoweenies (it's always mentioned in Hemmings)...maybe those who simply like cars that aren't new world order transport pods can do so too.

gagrice · April 2009

Of all the 'green' claims out there, I do like diesels the most.

You need a pre urea inline six E320 CDI. They have no problem getting 37 MPG on the highway. I'm not sold on their V6 CDI yet. BMW stuck with the inline 6 and my guess it is better on mileage than the new E320 CDI blutech. That and the 335D are probably fun to drive. Of course for the budget minded the Jetta TDI is supposed to handle very well and get close to 50+ MPG.

stever · April 2009

They must have plenty of free time

Are you one of those sheeple that think you have to work 9 to 5 six days a week and commute 40 miles a day too? :P

I don't care how exciting your car is, sitting in or just fighting traffic ain't much fun.

(I think that's the first time I've ever used "sheeple." Did I spell it right?

)

lilengineerboy · April 2009

I can't go nuts for the Tesla yet, I don't see anything to tell me it is a viable concern. And the big problem with that tech is power...where will it come from?

So in the 80s, as a tween and early teen, I got into R/C cars. 1/10 scale electric off road buggies specifically. I had an RC10 and a YZ10 (RWD and AWD buggies - I ran in whatever class was easier). In the beginning, the cars used 6 C-cell sized 800 mAH rechargable batteries in a pack, and had a 15 minute DC (car battery) "quick charger". From there, they added a cell and then another so everyone was running 7 or 8 cell battery packs. Then the battery packs started switching for these low end NiCad cells to SCR and SCE cells and having 1000 or 1200 mAh ratings. That got a lot more run time and a lot more power to the motor.
At the same time, companies started experimenting with windings in the electric motors, brushes, and wire diameter. Oh and magnet type. What started out as a 10 minute run at maybe 15 or 20 mph became a 20 minute run at much closer to 30 mph.
The Tesla is the same thing...over time, batteries will be upgradeable, electric motors will be modified, power controller programming will be updated, etc. SSDD

The issue is that this "fun" car is a buck-o-nine, or about the same as 5 2001 Boxter Ss, or a whole bucket of some other car that actually is fun.

I am not worried about living in Larsb's world, I don't see that in my lifetime - or driving career at least.

Oh and age related affects on driving start in the early 40s. Initially, most are related to vision and "accomodation" (the time it takes to adjust from looking at something close up to something far away, like checking your speed before going through a photoradar trap then refocusing on the road). Once you get to bifocals, its a real issue.

fintail · April 2009

Well, I know in this day and age it's hard to find a private sector job that will let you come and go as you please and make a schedule around transit times rather than corporate demands. The globalized world won't work that way. So yeah, I am one of those sheeple :P

I'd rather spend 15 mins fighting with the idiots on the road than spending 45 mins to travel on a bus.

fintail · April 2009

Those first modern diesels are known to be pretty good I think...but I don't know if they have any kind of special handling or fun potential.

I am not turned off the urea design....I am a car maintenance nut, so I wouldn't forget to do it.

A co-worker of mine had an 04 Jetta TDI that aged very poorly, he had a lot of problems by 45K miles when he dumped it. I am scared of them.

fintail · April 2009

I like to think the Tesla will be more practical and cheaper as technology improves, but will the company survive? As you say, that money could buy a commuter hybrid, and a few real fun cars and enough money to keep them in gas for years. I do wish them for the best, for simply daring to try.

I also wonder how the power grid can adapt to everyone using that tech,

I know my dad slowed down a lot between 45 and 60...I don't think he got any wiser during that time :shades:

iluvmysephia1 · April 2009

over in the '2.0 Midsize Sedans' thread about 20-25 posts or so back. backy was drooling over a VW Passat or something, and I was just mentioning the old VW CamperVan's of the late 60's-ta-early 70's model(I think it's got the word Westphalia in it's model title). And how they can still be bought for anywhere from $5,000-$12,000. Of course, the closer to $12,000 you pay the easier it will be to get an old VW Bus for camping out that will actually be running still. :P

But I originally commented on that thread about the new '09 Mazda 6's and their cost of $28,000. That started backy defending the midsize VW and how much goodness is packed in to the VW as opposed to the Maz6.

But my main thought is this. I still, even though I learned to drive stick on a baby blue '66 VW Fastback 4-speed, and really enjoyed the car, don't trust buying a new VW. And it's because of reliability issues. A lot of the problems seem to be electrical in nature. I remember nightmares with my first car, a '65 Mustang, with electrical issues. I don't want to buy a car that starts destructing after 40,000 miles. VW has lost me for a long, long time. I trust my current car's maker Mitsubishi and old fave Kia way more than Germany's VW, because of build integrity and ongoing horror stories concerning VW new vehicle reliability concerns.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2009

domestic automakers and their new "green" drive to pull us all their way, comes this heartening breaking story about the 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid. Which, interestingly, also sells for around $28,000 bucks.

Apparently a crack team working with the car has drove it 1000 miles on one tankful of ghastly. And...there's a third of the tank left. They're still on the road. Check it out here.

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1020289_ford-fusion-hybrid-breaks-1000-miles- - - - - -on-a-single-tank-of-fuel-one-third-of-tank-remains

They're claiming 80 mpg using "eco driving techniques." Whew-please splane that to us.

gagrice · April 2009

One of our old posters here at Edmund's, Wayne Gerdes, is part of the program. That should help Ford immensely in this down market. I like the looks of the Fusion a lot better than any other hybrid on the road. Will it be fun to drive is the big question in my mind.

nippononly · April 2009

Well, it's a midsize sedan WITHOUT the sport package that is available on some trims of the Fusion. So will it be fun to drive? Not much, I would think.

But will it have the power of a V-6 with the fuel economy of a subcompact? Yes it will.

Tesla has barely begun its trip down Electric Ave. It and others like it will mass market a car under $40K within ten years I bet. Perhaps under $30K, which is where they would need to be for wide acceptance. But the point is, the potential of the electric powertrain is high, and barely tapped thus far.

And Audi's R10 diesel should make a believer of anyone who contends that diesel power can't be fun.

And in all of this, never forget that less than 10% of all new car buyers place "fun to drive" in their top five priorities when car shopping, and automakers are well aware of this, so fun green cars will only arrive slowly over time.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2009

I don't know if you've read my posts earlier in this thread on new all-electric cars from Pininfarina-Bollore with their BlueCar(formerly called the B0, until it drew too many laughs and P-F needed to change it) and BYD of China with their e6, but I've got both of those cars squarely in my sights.

I'm like a kid in a candy store when researching all-electric cars. Almost as much fun as when researching online for my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. Almost as much fun!

The BYD e6 is my front-runner for future possible purchases because it will go 249 miles on one charge. That's BYD's claim, anyway. 0-60 in 8 seconds and 99mph top speed. Seats 7-it's a crossover bodystyle. Rumoured to retail for around $28,000 USD. Subject to a Barack Obama "green car" rebate of some $7,500 bucks. It's a 2011 model that will arrive for sale in the U.S. in 2010. Needs to pass safety tests, yes.

2011 BYD e6

The other car is a collaborative between Bollore (battery maker) of France and Pininfarina of Italy(the famous body design studio and carmaker). Called the BlueCar, Bollore of France claims they've spent 15 years developing the lithium metal polymer battery. Test mules have gone 120,000 kilometres with no trouble and no maintenance required. Seats 4, goes 85 mph top speed. 0-60 in about two hours. Just kidding! The 2010 Pininfarina-Bollore BlueCar has a range of 153 miles. So it's currently in my runners-up slot for futures purchasing. Said to retail for around $24,000 bucks, minus a handsome rebate.

2010 Pininfarina-Bollore BlueCar

Around Nov.-Dec. of '07 I had had enough of the stupid greedy oil companies and the dorky oil futures traders. I would love to wean myself off of ICE transportation. And, considering that man had invented electric cars around 1907 anyway, this shouldn't be a race to be the smartest car rocket scientist on the planet type of thing, should it?

I'm a sponge for soaking up all-electric powertrain vehicle news right now. Hybrids aren't the same kind of fun-they don't count. Bring on the all-electrics! This is gonna be a gas! Pardon the pun.

nippononly · April 2009

Yup, I've read your posts on this pair. I know you are genuinely interested in them.

I think it would be a mistake for Chinese auto manufacturing if the first Chinese-built cars on our shores are these things, but I am prepared to be proven wrong. People need to get used to the made-in-China thing when it comes to their new car, and the best way to do that is with cheap durable gas cars that prove to be very reliable and establish Chinese cars as NOT junk. Which brings me to point two...

....I wouldn't buy a new alt-powered car from a Chinese company building them in China. That's just me perhaps, but I want iron-clad warranty and service coverage from a company I have many years of familiarity with, located on American shores and which I trust, when I buy my first electric car. Which is why the Tesla early adopters are very brave in my view. But I think if Tesla can get a track record of ten years that looks good, I would be ready to deal with them.

I have the same type of doubts about the Pininfarina, if this Bollore company I have never heard of is the one doing the guts. And if it's Pininfarina doing the guts, that doesn't inspire me to much extra confidence either.

But both of those companies have gone a long way to proving this new technology, and for that reason I'm glad they are out there, and hope they garner a few sales from it too. :-)

iluvmysephia1 · April 2009

my wife and I only have 35,235 miles on our '08 Mitsu Lancer GTS, and the car is a great car, so, it would take a lot of leaning to lean that far as to really make a purchase. We've got scads of miles left on the Lancer GTS, and, it would make a lot more sense to wait and see how these companies cars work out over here. I tend to get umm...overly enthusiastic about new cars at times. I'm sure you've never noticed such a thing.

I spose the reason I'm as excited as I am is that both cars are affordable (especially minus the $7,500, or at least a partial amount of that, BO "green" rebate) and look to be everyday-driver type cars, that are available within a short period of time.

I wonder about Warranties for both cars and about a more "connected" and available "re-charging" system for taking long vacations. I mean, even if I wanted to head west to see The Tragically Hip in concert in L.A., that's 558 miles west for us! The BYD e6 will go about 249 miles on one charge. Three all-electric carbuilders are now offering their infamous "quick-chargers" that bring your all-electric back up to around 80% of top fill within a very short amount of time, we're talking about 15-30 minutes here. One could grab a burger while their electric car charges up over at Autozone. I would have to research, call ahead for charging station locations, their availability to me, etc. I love my Lancer GTS so much, and I would very much trust Mitsubishi and their i-MiEV. I was thinking that I could stop at Mitsu dealers along the way, and, in exchange for being an early participant in their all-electric i-MiEV sales program in the U.S., charge-up my 2010 Mitsubishi i-MiEV at their showroom/service centers along my travel route, whatever I was in the midst of. Now, that is a deal that might work for me right there. I mean, this is infancy time, they are gonna have to bend over a bit for this idea to grab hold fully-completely, yes? The i-MiEV has a range of around 105 miles per charge.

One west coast city taking the lead in this development is Portland, OR. I would think Seattle would start working on these things and SF as well. It's not like it's some "secret" technology. And, as I mentioned, between 1900 and 1910 there were a bunch of these electric cars in development. I don't know how many actually made the grade and were available for purchase, though. But you get my drift, eh?

gagrice · April 2009

I had the same kind of doubts about the Prius technology as you have about a Chinese EV. I would be a lot more likely to buy one of the BYD models shown above than any Hybrid. I like the car also. :shades: An EV is far less complex, with a lot less to go wrong. Battery life is the biggest what if in my thinking. If they have the same 10 year warranty I would feel at ease. I don't think they will have that kind of warranty, as the hybrid batteries. That was forced onto Toyota and the others by CARB, to get the AT-PZEV rating.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2009

tell ya what, if BYD offered the same 10 year Warranty I have on my '08 Lancer GTS, I'd really perk my ears up. Someone tell Warren Buffett to speak loudly about this and perhaps it will get done.

Yeah, it's those three EV's I'm interested in, but the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, the more established carmaker, only gets about 105 miles per charge. That's pretty good, but not good enough.

So the BYD e6 gets top-nod from me. I think that Pininfarina-Bollore and their BlueCar would really face some hurdles in getting Americans to trust their build quality. Mitsu has the edge there.

BYD has an American as a 10% shareholder, might that help quell the nerves of Americans just a bit? I read a quote from a BYD exec that the sorta-high price of $28,000 for the e6 may make the car a candidate for taxi fleets. To start out. Might scare some people off. Humm. But if BYD can buck up and offer at least a 7 year, 125,000 mile Warranty it might be a lot more presentable package for us to get our heads around.

lemko · April 2009

Oh please dear God, I hope not! I still remember my Dad's anemic 1981 Ford Thunderbird with its wussy 255 V-8 I had to floor just to get up a modest hill! Shoot, my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe with a mere 230 hp felt like a muscle car compared to it.

lemko · April 2009

Living in such a world, I'd just reach for the pistol in my night stand drawer to say "good-bye" to it all but the New World Order Orwellian Elitists will have confiscated it too!

lemko · April 2009

I remember a story about a man who never owned a car, but instead spent money that would've otherwise been spent on a car on nice suits. He bought them from the same men's store all his life. The guy must've had a different suit for each day of the year. He never left the neighborhood. Alas, he is long dead and the men's store from which he purchased his clothes is out of business.

nippononly · April 2009

Well, the thing with the all-electrics is how enthusiastic they want to get with the batteries and battery usage in terms of eking out gains in operating range. Note that Mitsubishi, the only one with an all-electric that has something to lose in terms of reputation, only draws 105 miles out of its model.

In the others my worries would be evenly divided between poor heat control of the battery pack leading to fires (Li-Ions being what they are presently), and exhaustion of the battery pack in 50K miles or less because the operating range draws it down too far in every cycle.

Will these issues be resolved with advances in technology in the next few years? Sure they will. But for now I'm not convinced they are ready.

The thing about the first hybrids was they were produced by car companies that had A LOT to lose in terms of reputation if they were duds or dangerous, and which were long-established and provided a warranty for the new hybrids that was even longer than their gas-powered cars. That's a big difference to me, but wouldn't be to everybody, I understand that.

Toyota, if it stays on track, looks prepared to offer a plug-in Prius late next year that will offer 50 miles of gas-free operation, with the usual hybrid-gas power kicking in after that. They will offer this product with all the backing of Toyota Motor Corp and the 150K-mile warranty that Californians get for the electric portion of the powertrain. Now THAT'S something I could get behind.

(Of course, I still have to resolve my aversion for automatics before I can truly go green, as it appears no green cars will offer manual transmissions except diesels. Maybe by then we will have more diesel options available. I am still waiting for the diesel GTI to appear, and for Honda to revive its small diesel program)

On a sidenote, I don't mean to chastise, but it seems somewhat distasteful to introduce the news piece on the bus crash, when its connection to this topic is questionable at best and when a number of people have lost their lives in this accident.

stever · April 2009

Thanks for getting us back on topic.

"First and foremost, it's a real car," Dominique said at a media event here in which journalists drove a Nissan Cube propelled by what is a close facsimile of the electric driveline slated for the production EV."

Nissan: EV Business Will Be "Real" Business (AutoObserver)

I don't know if the Cube will be exciting to drive but it looks enjoyable enough for those of us who like boxes on wheels.

gagrice · April 2009

In the others my worries would be evenly divided between poor heat control of the battery pack leading to fires (Li-Ions being what they are presently), and exhaustion of the battery pack in 50K miles or less because the operating range draws it down too far in every cycle.

Those are very big concerns of mine also. They would have to have a 10 year warranty from a large corporation, other than GM. I would never park a car with Ii-ion batteries in my garage. Plug it in out front. I do like the EV concept. Range is not a big issue for me as 99% of my errands would be less than 50 miles round trip. I'm not sure I would go for the high price currently anticipated.

PS
Sorry for the detour. Just could not help myself.

gagrice · April 2009

I don't know if the Cube will be exciting to drive but it looks enjoyable enough for those of us who like boxes on wheels.

I love boxes on wheels. I thought the original xB was great. Scion managed to screw it up with goofy styling. The roominess for stuff is what I like. In an errand runner. I would buy a Ford Flex if they put a small diesel in them.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2009

apparently the Pininfarina-Bollore will not be the standard Li-Ion battery a lot of EV builders are using. Read this:

A the heart of the BLUECAR lies its battery, the source of the cars power but also of its outstanding driving experience thanks to the use of a unique technology. Basing itself on its know-how as the worlds leading maker of polymer fi lms for capacitors, another energy storage component, the Bolloré Group launched a research programme nearly fi fteen years ago to develop a battery based on a radically new concept: Lithium Metal Polymer (L. M. P.) technology.

Produced at BatScap, a subsidiary that was set up specifi cally for that purpose, the L. M. P. battery provides a number of advantages: it can store fi ve times more energy than a traditional battery weight for weight and can be recharged in a matter of hours. Its solid-state technology makes it safer too and its lifespan should outlast that of the car that it powers.

Last, but not least, by combining an L. M. P. battery with an array of super-capacitors, the outcome is greater power for acceleration, a longer range thanks to the recycling of braking energy, and a longer lifespan for the battery thanks to the smoothing out of sudden power drains.

That's taken right from the P-F BlueCar website. They claim to be getting exceptionally good test-mule results, i.e. 120,000 km's with no maintenance needed nor any repairs required. They have spent 15 years working on this battery/supercapacitor system. The battery system does not need maintenance, say goodbye to not only constant ghastly stops but oil changes as well.

They are claiming a battery lifespan of 200,000 km's. The car is so quiet going down the road that they fit it with a "fake" road sound that is utilized to let pedestrians and bikeriders know you are near with your BlueCar.

P-F calls it the "soft sound" button, and it gives out a gentle, humming sound to the outside world around your BlueCar. Smashing!

Just FYI-Pininfarina-Bollore is still supplying the BlueCar with the standard horn on the steering wheel, in case you were wondering. Love to know what kind of Warranty and officially-released MSRP P-F is offering and charging for this all-EV.

Still waiting for my e-mail's inbox to be graced with the "test market" information for the U.S. in 2009. I'm referring to the 3 U.S. test-market cities P-F is bringing a small chunk of these cars to "test-market."

L.A. is going to be one of those cities. In the movie 'The Italian Job' you may remember that the trailer info. on the video mentioned that to go into underground L.A. to shoot the movie, the producers/creators of the movie had to retrofit the ICE BMW Mini-Coopers to have all-electric powertrains. Director/Producer's say the team responsible for this worked swiftly and did an accurate job, too. Wonder who they hired. There's a lot of people in the U.S. tinkering with all-electric conversions as I type this out right now. Actors and the rest of the group driving the 27 Mini's for the movie claimed they drove like little champs. This was a surprise to the Director, the need to get these electric Mini's prepared. They were going to just drive ICE Mini's down there.

nippononly · April 2009

GEM car to hit our markets will do so in May. It's called the Wheego Whip.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/17/wheego-whip-electric-car-coming-to-u-s-i- n-may/

Word is this manufacturer (Chinese, I believe) is working on a 99 mph version of this car that will meet all U.S. safety and emissions regs for street cars.

fintail · April 2009

Another Chinese knock-off...maybe they copied the Smart's safety cell structure, but I can't say I trust Chinese metallurgy. Next will be a Geely hybrid fake MB or Rolls :lemon:

nippononly · April 2009

Well, the Chinese are coming to the U.S. auto market, that's for sure. And they do like styling their cars to imitate those of other manufacturers. But then, they do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, don't they?!

fintail · April 2009

I don't think the copycat designs are made as a compliment so much as taking the expensive design step out of the equation. Then remove the expensive ideals of social and environmental responsibility, and you have Chinese manufacturing in a nutshell. A race to the bottom doesn't produce progress.

nippononly · April 2009

Well the American consumer may yet reject Chinese cars when they arrive. Although I suspect they will not if the price is super-low.

OTOH, the Chinese could be a boon for green cars, since they will have the ability to significantly reduce the price to buy alt-powered vehicles, most likely. If so, alt-power adoption by American car buyers will happen earlier and more quickly.

fintail · April 2009

Agreed, the price will do the talking, especially as real incomes and standards of living continue to devolve.

Indeed China can reduce the price...pirate some technology and use 19th century labor standards. Reminds me of Fat Tony from 'The Simpsons' talking about how his house didn't cost as much as one would think: "Actually, you can really keep costs down when you don't pay for materials, or labor, or permits or... land. "

lemko · April 2009

The ironic thing is the Chinese production of "green" cars will probably cause untold environmental damage on an astronomical scale. Chernobyl would be like a primordial forest compared to the area around a Chinese "green car" factory! :sick:

ateixeira · April 2009

Might that make them a tougher sell, though? The customer supposedly cares more about that stuff.

nortsr1 · May 2009

The Whip is an NEV (neighborhood electric vehicle). A glorified golf cart that can only be driven in "designated areas".

lemko · May 2009

Shoot, in that case, wouldn't the greenest thing to do is simply walk to your destination? Heck, if something is within my neighborhood, I walk there.

ateixeira · May 2009

Gotta think of the old fogies that can't necessarily walk as far...

Very much a niche market.

gagrice · May 2009

if something is within my neighborhood, I walk there.

In CA they can be driven on any street that is posted 35 MPH or less. There are some retirement communities that are miles around. My tax man moved to the VIllages in Florida. He parked his Lexus and drives the golf cart everywhere. Including the 28 golf courses he has access to. That is about as green living as it gets. 504 greens to be exact. :shades:

lemko · May 2009

...Size ofSome Really Big Thing

At his suburban Nashville home, Ex-Vice President Al Gore enjoyed the Oscar awarded to An Inconvenient Truth, the documentary on global warming in which he starred. But the Tennessee Center for Policy Research gained access to Gores utility bills for two years and published the gas and electric bills for his 20-room home and pool house. It turned out the home devoured nearly 221,000 kilowatt-hours in 2006, more than 20 times the national average of 10,656 kilowatt-hours. The Centers president, Drew Johnson said, If this were any other person with $30,000-a-year in utility bills, I wouldnt care. But he tells other people how to live and hes not following his own rules.

iluvmysephia1 · May 2009

enjoyable to own and drive.

Mitsu will sell 3 types of chargers, and the car will weigh 2,300 lbs. A 120-volt charge-up will take about 12 hours, but a 220-volt charge takes only 7 hours. A quick charger will be for sale with your i-MiEV that will enable an 80% re-charge in 30 minutes.

63hp and 133-ft.-lb.'s of torque. RWD, rear-mounted "motor". 330 Lithium-Ion battery pack. Range is 80-100 miles.

Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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