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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Anyone see any sales figures lately. What effect will this have on Tesla motors?

    SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch)--Tesla Motors Inc.'s (TSLA) top sales executive, George Blankenship, has left the company, according to media reports. Blankenship spearheaded the electric car company's retail operations, including its push toward mall-based showrooms that skirted the traditional auto dealership model. Blankenship, 60, confirmed in an email to the San Jose Mercury News that he had retired to spend more time with his family. The company has not yet announced his resignation, which apparently took place several weeks ago. Blankenship came to Tesla in 2010 from Apple Inc. (AAPL), where he was the chief strategist behind Apple's retail stores. The reports did little to budge Tesla shares, which were last up 0.1% at $121.29.

    Most of the market looks up in pre hour trades. TSLA is trading lower $119.70 last trade.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This may take some pressure off of Tesla.

    Paul Walker -- best known for his role in "The Fast and the Furious" movies -- died Saturday afternoon after a single-car accident and explosion in Southern California ... TMZ has learned.

    The accident happened in Santa Clarita -- north of Los Angeles -- and according to multiple sources connected to Paul ... the actor was in a Porsche when the driver somehow lost control and slammed into a post or a tree ... and then the car burst into flames.

    http://www.tmz.com/2013/11/30/paul-walker-dead-dies-car-accident-fatal-fire-cras- h/#ixzz2mCC9FqJQ
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    I don't know if an almost unstable-by-design (I've seen it called a "widowmaker", and many professional drivers have had trouble with it) street legal race car going off the road at likely triple digit speeds and catching fire compares with a glorified luxobarge driven by bland older people catching fire via road debris - but I am sure Musk can spin it up for us.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Luckily they didn't kill some innocent bystanders with their crazy driving. It's a shame to see a beautiful car like that destroyed by stupidity. If it was a Lexus it could be blamed on SUA.. ;-)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "This is a company that has achieved the remarkable in launching a new automobile, a new propulsion technology and a new automobile manufacturing enterprise in just a few short years and against very long odds.

    [A] typical conventional car with 15 gallons of gas on board carries the explosive power of 210 sticks of dynamite. But most of us drive around all day long blissfully ignoring that deadly potential. Gasoline is the devil we know, and familiarity lets us overlook its flaws."

    Tesla holds huge promise, despite flaws (CNN)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    I wonder if O'dell has speculated in any stock. Not many, if any, 2012+ 80K+ gasoline luxury sedans catching fire out there, for any reason.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    Reckless driver + dangerous car = won't end well. If it was a Toyota, the car would always be blamed, even if the driver was wholly inept.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    He's likely saved enough gas money driving his Nissan Leaf to be able to afford a few shares. :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A very innovative i3 emerges:

    http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/BMW-i3-first-drive-2013-09-10

    No sweat to the current Tesla, unless they want to move downmarket--then they'll run headlong into a very clever piece of engineering that matches their own.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    edited December 2013
    Interesting tidbit, the carbon fiber for those is made in WA state, due to cheap hydropower probably.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    He deserves something for driving a Leaf ;)

    But at least that one isn't aimed at 2%ers who still receive crazy incentives.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's a very controversial design for sure, but very interesting nonetheless. And with the range extender, 300km range is nothing to sneeze at, or 340 or so if you hypermile a bit.

    Tesla is still the 800 lb gorilla on the luxury end, but I think that BMW has leapfrogged Tesla (for the moment) in designing the electric car of tomorrow.

    THIS car is a game changer I think.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How much does it cost to charge?
    Reed: This is a question I wish I were asked more often because the answer is so awesome. It costs me about $2 for my daily 63-mile commute compared to the $8 it used to cost to cover the same distance in my 2007 Honda Fit Sport.

    In the U.S., the cost of electricity varies far more than the cost of gasoline, from a kilowatt-hour average of 8.6 cents in Washington state to 37 cents in Hawaii.

    I have to assume he lives in WA which has relatively low electric rates at 8.6 cents per KWH. That same charge in San Diego would likely be $7.92. Or a per mile cost of 12.6 cents per mile. Staying with San Diego gas prices of $3.45 per gallon any vehicle that gets 27.6 MPG would be comparable. Not a real selling point for an EV in the land of Fruits, nuts and Flakes. And our electric rates are going up again. If you worked nights you could get a solar panel to charge the car during the day.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    A typical conventional car with 15 gallons of gas on board carries the explosive power of 210 sticks of dynamite.

    That got me thinking. From what I can find a tank of RUG is more volatile than a tank of Diesel. So the chance of a spark starting a fire with a gas vehicle is higher than with a diesel vehicle. It is obvious from the Li-Ion fires in Tesla and Prius after market Plugins, is they are much more likely to catch fire just from internal heat. Any kind of short circuit can start a Li-ion battery fire. Over 7 million Sony laptop batteries were recalled. I got a new one for my Dell Inspiron. Diesel the safest energy source.

    SAN JOSE, Calif. — The massive global recall of batteries made by Sony Corp. widened Wednesday as Japanese electronics maker Fujitsu Ltd. said it is recalling 287,000 laptop batteries that are at risk of overheating or catching fire.

    The move brings the number of lithium-ion batteries being replaced worldwide to more than 7 million, according to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission.

    Fujitsu said the recall would affect 224,000 laptops sold outside Japan across 10 models, including the popular Lifebook series. The remaining 63,000 were sold in Japan. Company officials refused to describe the recall's cost.

    Fujitsu's decision follows similar moves by other major notebook computer makers, with the first and largest coming from Dell Inc. at 4.2 million, followed by Apple Computer Inc. at 1.8 million. Lenovo Group Ltd. and Toshiba Corp. joined the recall last week.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15254251/#.Up0cgCeHhOs
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    John lives within commuting distance of the home office in Santa Monica (i.e. somewhere in the greater LA area).

    If the NHTSA had been around 100 years ago, we'd all have been driving electrics all these years. Lead acid batteries never explode. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Los Angeles has subsidized electricity and is not burdened as much with State mandates. Not sure what they are paying per KWH. Ours starts at 15 cents and quickly goes up four tiers to 34 cents per KWH. If you don't use any AC and keep the lights off you can keep your bill under $100 per month. I always get brownie points from SDG&E for being well below comparable homes in my area. Where I am considering moving in KY the rates are 6.98 cents per KWH with $5 per month service charge. My bill during a light AC use month (643KWHs)was $135.77. In KY that bill would have been $49.88. So we not only pay some of the highest taxes in the Nation we also get screwed on utilities. Our highest bill this summer was $274.94 (1125 KWH). Same usage in KY would be $83. Owning an EV in San Diego is real iffy on any savings.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    From the link:

    "O'Dell: Fuel cost is immaterial to me. We have a home solar system, so our electric bill is very low. It averages about $25 a month for a 2,000-square-foot house, the EV and the 240-volt natural-gas fuel compressor we have for the Civic. But we are on one of Southern California Edison Co.'s special EV rate plans, so our usual charging — between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. — would average about 8 cents per kWh, or $2.69 per 100 miles of travel, if we had to pay for all of it."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Lucky him. The cheapest EV rate in San Diego is 16 cents per KWH. Between the hours of midnite and 5 AM. We won't go into the unknown cost of owning Solar.

    http://www.sdge.com/clean-energy/ev-rates
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2013
    Sounds like he's invested a hefty sum in infrastructure for a green lifestyle. Well, more "power' to him.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    Built in hypermiling.

    "This innovative technology stops the engine when the vehicle is in motion, so that it does not consume any fuel. Whenever the vehicle can maintain its speed simply by rolling – for instance on a gentle incline – the engine is stopped. As soon as the driver touches the gas or brake pedal, the engine starts up again.

    Tests carried out by Bosch have shown that the combustion engines runs needlessly about 30 percent of the time, meaning that the vehicle could simply coast for about a third of every journey."

    Start-stop system with coasting mode (Bosch Media Service)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    I wonder how this affects engine braking? The article didn't say.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600

    It was predictable. GM is offering up to $3,000 in customer discounts toward the lease or purchase price of a Cadillac ELR, according to The Wall Street Journal.

    Even with the discount the ELR is overpriced, in my opinion.

    ELR inventories continue to grow. At the end of April, GM had 1,700 ELR coupe models in stock, which is a 725-day supply, according to the Automotive News.

    It'll be interesting to see what the market value of a two or three year old ELR will be.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454

    "Hyundai Motor Co. has toppled Honda from its perennial roost at the top of a tally of the nation's "greenest "automakers, compiled by the Union of Concerned Scientists.

    The rankings, which have been issued six times since 2000, don't mean Honda has slipped. In fact, its cars and trucks are more efficient and less polluting now than ever before. Instead, the ratings show that Hyundai, and other car companies, are improving more rapidly, said David Cook, an analyst with the environmental group's Clean Vehicles Program."

    Hyundai Knocks Honda From "Greenest" Carmaker Perch

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Sales of green cars, except for the Nissan Leaf, are in a slump, largely due to the decline in the price of oil. The old saying that "people vote with their pocketbook" seems to apply here. If oil prices were to suddenly double, to use an exaggerated hypothetical, green vehicles would be red hot.

    Well, maybe not, since a sudden rise in the price of oil of that magnitude would cause another "great recession," or worse, and sales of all vehicles would probably stall.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I have driven lots of different types of EVs, going back 20 years, and most of the modern hybrids, and it seems that the owners of these vehicles are not motivated by "fun" or "excitement"---but they do enjoying owning the cars, for their novelty and curiosity-level with the general public.

    I think most owners of EVs and hybrids view them primarily as "transportation". And for that reason, cost of ownership is going to be a critical factor in their buying decision---not some fantasy attachment to the car's image.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Don't forget the excitement of wondering if you're going to make it back home to the plug in your EV. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Even a Smart Car is "exciting" if you factor in fear for your life.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Good point Shifty. And with the idea of self-driving cars floating around, are ANY cars going to be fun to drive?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2014
    Toyota and Honda think they've hit on the "next big thing". And it's only taken about 10 years to get to this point.

    Below-zero start-ups put FCV developers to the test (Japan News)
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    stever said:

    Toyota and Honda think they've hit on the "next big thing". And it's only taken about 10 years to get to this point.

    Below-zero start-ups put FCV developers to the test (Japan News)

    Interesting stuff. The deal with the "next big thing" is that there's always a next "next big thing" ;)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I couldn't find a topic that was a perfect fit for the article about France's second thoughts regarding diesels, so I've put it here...

    http://www.autoblog.com/2014/12/01/france-moves-to-ban-diesel/
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I was commenting about this in the diesel car section.

    I'm wondering if this is merely a reflection of the contrarian French way of doing things, or if this is a dark portent on how the EU is going to treat diesels in the near future?

    I noticed in the article that Belgium and Netherlands are jumping in on this---two smallish nations to be sure with no big guns in the war, but France is not a small player in diesel technology development by any means.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    Maybe it's a move to fight German manufacturers, who overall make superior diesel (and usually otherwise) vehicles than the French? Or as gasoline isn't receiving an incentive, just a tax hike to pay for the burning cars and related demographic issues?

    Or maybe a funny reaction to the smog produced by a temperature inversion not too long ago. I don't know if anyone is running to copy the French when it comes to vehicle regulation - but never underestimate the power of the guilted idiotic Eurocrat. If they move to electrics, I suspect there will be issues with the Frogland electrical grid soon, just as Germany has seen power system issues due to defective greenieweenie policy,
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the French are still big on nukes, aren't they? Even in the USA, some leading environmentalists (some self-appointed, that's true) are not adverse to nuclear power.

    I'm putting all my chips (figuratively) on plug-in hybrids as the "green" car for the immediate future.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    I thought I read before that their nuke grid is getting kind of stretched. Add a bunch of electric vehicles, and that might break it. Nukes are fine, it's who is managing them that makes me worry.

    The French thing is likely yet another fail in terms of differentiating soot-belching old vehicles from modern cars with particulate controls.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well I do sympathize though. At time the air quality in some French cities really is pretty bad and they do have a lot of old diesels running around.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    fintail said:

    I thought I read before that their nuke grid is getting kind of stretched. Add a bunch of electric vehicles, and that might break it.

    That's what I've always seen as the "ignored elephant in the room". EV enthusiasts that think we're ready to go and it's simply a matter of everyone going electric never seem to get around to what's going to happen with the grid and to electric rates. Demand that's not there at the moment, will certainly have an effect when it comes online.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Where I live a squirrel could bring down the grid.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    But it doesn't use gasoline, so it is "green"!

    I wonder how much greener we'd be if cities could finally be bothered to take some responsibility with their traffic control infrastructure. Stupid traffic patterns probably cause more pollution than poorly maintained commercial diesels.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Where I live a squirrel could bring down the grid.

    I watched a squirrel take out the power in my neighborhood a few years ago. He got up by a transformer on top of a pole and we had a large BOOM. Was quite impressive... as long as you weren't the squirrel
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    fintail said:

    But it doesn't use gasoline, so it is "green"!

    I wonder how much greener we'd be if cities could finally be bothered to take some responsibility with their traffic control infrastructure. Stupid traffic patterns probably cause more pollution than poorly maintained commercial diesels.

    Intelligent traffic patterns could make at least a measurable difference. This article on Why UPS Trucks Don't Turn Left makes me feel better about my "it's better to keep moving" philosophy

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    Well, diesels put out lots of particulates, very bad for the lungs, and release more CO2/gallon. So getting rid of the favorable diesel taxes makes a lot of sense to me.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I was on a bus for 30+ minutes in LA today at the start of the evening commute (3:30 pm in other words). A few cars were zooming in the carpool lane (minimum two passengers). The other four lanes were full of the usual solo drivers poking along in their ton and a half ton cocoons of steel and plastic. It's just bizarre behavior to endure 10 times a week.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    stever said:

    I was on a bus for 30+ minutes in LA today at the start of the evening commute (3:30 pm in other words). A few cars were zooming in the carpool lane (minimum two passengers). The other four lanes were full of the usual solo drivers poking along in their ton and a half ton cocoons of steel and plastic. It's just bizarre behavior to endure 10 times a week.

    Heh... LA drivers overthink the traffic situation. Don't go THAT way, there will be too much traffic! Which leads to EVERYONE going the "better" way and ...wait for it... TRAFFIC :D
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There's a bus in LA? Well, knock me over with a feather, as Opus the penguin used to say.

    the problem with the concept of making green cars exciting to drive is, IMO, that it embodies a contradiction in terms. It's like marketing organic cigarettes (which someone actually tried to do and it was a Big Fail) or sexy outfits for highway flagmen. (flagpersons?)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It was a charter. Probably had to drive it down from Portland. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2014
    You remember the story of how electric light rail disappeared from Los Angeles?

    GM bought all the rail cars and allegedly dumped them in the ocean, or certainly scrapped them.

    The government fined them $5000 for illegal monopolistic practices of some sort.

    Shortly thereafter, they of course sold tons of buses to LA.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2014
    Yep, moving to the 'burbs had nothing to do with it. Heaven forbid you'd want to spend a bundle to move the tracks two blocks to serve the new elementary school instead of just changing the bus route and printing up some new schedules. B)

    General Motors streetcar conspiracy
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Finally, a conspiracy theory that turned out to be true! :)

  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    It is my understanding that with some kinds of electricity generation the supplier cannot simply ramp supply up & down to meet demand. There's a lot of excess electricity generated during off-peak hours/at night that is basically wasted. Putting that on the grid to recharge EVs/PHEVs is no added strain and even lets the provider turn waste into revenue.

    Of course that won't hold true for some electricity sources like solar (though battery banks or other mechanisms can be used to store excess charge) but by and large the grid can take the load of a few million EVs without fear of failure.


    What I'd like to know is if hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles have overcome their inherent inefficiency when compared to EVs.
    - Electricity: Generate power, transfer to battery, transfer to motor.
    - Hydrogen: Generate power, use power to extract hydrogen from a mass, transfer to fuel cell, transfer to engine.
    Each step in either process is sub-optimal; none are 100% efficient. H-power has more processes and unless those processes can be made much more efficient, H-power will always be a worse solution than EV from a power efficiency POV.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
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