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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't want to get political but it would be hard to ignore former Presidential ties to big oil. About as direct as it gets.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2013
    I don't want to get political but it would be hard to ignore former Presidential ties to big oil. About as direct as it gets.

    Absolutely. Bill Clinton has very close ties to the ME and especially Dubai. :P

    Truth is they all have since the late 1800s. That still does not make Battery powered vehicles charged up by fossil fuel GREEN. The cumulative effect is still an environmental negative. You have to remember the resources used to create these so called Green Vehicles are finite and getting more rare by the day. You cannot recycle an old Prius and get enough out to build another Prius, like you can with an ICE vehicle.

    Why Advanced Lithium Ion Batteries Won't Be Recycled

    http://www.altenergystocks.com/archives/2011/05/why_advanced_lithium_ion_batteri- - es_wont_be_recycled.html
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't think you could recycle either one completely. Nickel is abundant and inert.

    Li-ion is less bad than lead-acid.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Li-ion is less bad than lead-acid.

    BUT, the lead and acid can be recycled 100%. Li-ion batteries are not going to be recycled as the cost is too high. If that cost is added to the batteries how much do you think an EV will cost? Most recycle places around here will not take batteries, CFLs and flourescent tubes.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    You're comparing apples and elephants. The half trillion in international subsidies is largely the political payola that countries like Venezuela and those in the middle east supply to keep fuel prices far below market levels. In the US the values are much more equal, with 8 years of fossil fuel subsidies of $72B, while renewable energy subsidies of $29B in the same period. On a per-unit basis, it's tilted WAY to the renewable side:

    "A 2010 study by Global Subsidies Initiative compared global relative subsidies of different energy sources. Results show that fossil fuels receive 0.8 US cents per kWh of energy they produce (although it should be noted that the estimate of fossil fuel subsidies applies only to consumer subsidies and only within non-OECD countries), nuclear energy receives 1.7 cents / kWh, renewable energy (excluding hydroelectricity) receives 5.0 cents / kWh and biofuels receive 5.1 cents / kWh in subsidies."

    This was all from the same Wiki article you quoted - wonder why you skipped over it??
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But read carefully, the highest subsidies go to bio fuels and that means Ethanol, and "gas" is E10, right?

    Tesla got a loan, it's not a grant.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I'm very sentimental about the domestic brands. However, I disagree with your conclusion because production and sales are driven by demand. Therefore, we wouldn't be in a mess, in my opinion, because someone would have bought the GM and Chrysler plants and equipment, in bankruptcy, and would have used them to fill the demand for vehicles. The GM and, possibly, Chrysler brands could also have been purchased, if that made marketing sense.

    The U.S. government, and taxpayers, lost billions on the GM rescue. That should have been the role of private industry and capital, in my view. Now, the banks and financial institutions were another matter, since they're the glue that holds the economy together. We can debate how well the government and the fed intervened in our financial system, the fairness of it, how we got there, etc., but I think government intervention was justified in the '07-'09 crisis. We were in a downward spiral that was quickly spinning out of control.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    "because someone would have bought the GM and Chrysler plants and equipment, in bankruptcy, and would have used them to fill the demand for vehicles"

    Probably not. There's a glut in carmaking capacity, both in US and in Europe. Other companies would have been happy to see a few dozen plants shuttered.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >>because someone would have bought the GM and Chrysler plants and equipment, in bankruptcy, and would have used them to fill the demand for vehicles"

    Don't know who that would be. Several plants that were shed by GM in this area find no buyers. One fairly recent large plant found no buyer and has been bought to be split into smaller areas by a speculator/investor.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think government intervention was justified in the '07-'09 crisis. We were in a downward spiral that was quickly spinning out of control.

    The financial crises the Federal Government via their various entities like Fannie Mae were responsible for. The Feds cause more problems than they cure.

    Trying to push alternative forms of energy via, mandates, grants and loans, is just another mess in the making. I would go along with grants at the university level, with any resulting profitable products going to pay back those grants.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Big Whoopee :P

    Nissan has thrown down the warranty gauntlet to other EV makers by announcing it would be the first to "restore" battery capacity if a Leaf's full charge fell below 9 out of 12 "bars" within 5 years or 60k miles.

    The company stressed it would only "repair or replace the battery under warranty with a new or remanufactured unit to restore capacity at or above a minimum of nine bars," and not a full charge -- saying a gradual, but not excessive loss of charge was normal.

    http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/28/nissan-will-now-restore-leafs-battery-charge/-
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited March 2013
    Many parties, including the federal government, were responsible for the financial crisis. Once the crisis became reality, though, only the federal reserve and government actions had the wherewithall to deal with this emergency.

    I agree that the goverment shouldn't be promoting the use of ethanol.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Kinda old news.

    I guess the equivalent would be a gas tank recall, which there are plenty of. Googled "fuel tank recall" and it came back with 2.7 million hits.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    How many fuel tanks cost $10k (or more)?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How many fuel tanks cost $10k (or more)?

    I would say that would be low end for the Leaf Battery. The ICE only version of a GM car comparable to the Volt sells for about half the price. I thought to get the good ratings at least in CA you had to warranty for 8 years 100k miles?

    For an EV that has a hard time making 70 miles on a charge, losing 30% cuts it back to less than 50 miles on a charge. That will not cut it for the average commuter in CA. Average commute is 32 miles one way last report I read. If you have a short commute with rare holdups maybe.

    http://www.statjump.com/lists/commute-time-dp3c41tc.html
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, it won't cost the owner anything, they are considered part of the emissions equipment so they're covered.

    Nissan felt confident enough to lower asking prices, and they improved the charging system for this model year. It's $20,250 here in MD with incentives, or a little under $30 grand excluding them.

    Sooner or later it will actually be price competitive even without the incentives, and that's the idea. They have to be phased out.

    A Leaf owner likely has a 2nd car, probably even 3+.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Akerson Says GM Working on 200-Mile Range Electric Car

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-06/akerson-says-gm-working-on-200-mile-ran- ge-electric-car.html
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    Speaking of incentives, Chinese carmakers are asking for more to support EV/HEV/ETC sales: Sound familliar?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If any place in the world needs remote-emissions-vehicles (no such thing as zero emissions), it's Beijing.

    Would be nice if humans could breathe there.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    Isn't much of their power from coal? In that case, a gasoline hybrid (no plug-in) is probably the lower-emission option.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think it would depend on where you are geographically. Hydro, nukes, coal, natural gas, wind, solar, etc.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2013
    http://green.autoblog.com/2013/03/08/wa-state-representative-argues-bikes-pollut- - e-more-than-cars-bac/

    Whoops.

    Reminds me of that Onion video with the Prius c, where the driver kills himself to reduce his footprint.

    Edit to ad link:

    http://youtu.be/bXEddCLW3SM

    Funny!
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    edited March 2013
    About 80% of Chinese power is from coal, going nowhere but up (full sized graph here):
    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not clean coal, either, I'm sure.

    Check the video, I edited the link above. It's hysterical.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    "The most sophisticated and ingeniously entertaining eco-car yet invented."

    2014 Volkswagen XL1 First Drive.

    image
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    That Onion Prius clip is laugh-out-loud funny!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "bike riding produces pollution"

    It is even worse if they are Vegan bike riders that survive on Beans and Broccoli.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    About 80% of Chinese power is from coal, going nowhere but up

    Of course, US and Australia sell them our coal dirt cheap. They build one new power plant per week powered by coal. We have idiots for legislators, that think they can push the pollution elsewhere and live in a pristine environment. Meanwhile sending all the jobs to China along with the coal.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's all they eat.

    If we could only harness all that methane gas.... :D
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Speaking of incentives, Chinese carmakers are asking for more to support EV/HEV/ETC sales

    Something to think about. If the Chinese control 95% of the natural resources needed to make EVs and hybrids, and still need subsidies to be profitable, how will we ever manufacture sustainable EVs? Buying from China is not a good option.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    US Army's FED on Jay Leno's garage

    http://youtu.be/23x5ifyxxwI
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    One of the few vehicles I would venture into Los Angeles at night in. Be fun to go out crushin' Corollas in. :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bet it could run on fry grease! Smells like french fries. :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited March 2013
    "Carmakers are going back to the drawing board in the hunt for fuel-saving technologies as hopes that electric vehicles will be the silver bullet for CO2 emissions look increasingly forlorn.

    There is a growing awareness that conventional hybrids and slow-selling battery cars simply won't be enough to meet rigid EU emissions limits."

    Carmakers think outside the box as electric dreams shatter (Reuters)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just what I have said since the industry settled on Lithium batteries. They have too many problems and too little gain over NiMH, which are too heavy to be practical. My guess is Nissan will end their Leaf program to coincide with the end of the Tax Credit welfare to the rich.

    If the automakers want to meet the goals, smaller diesel engines designed to run on any mixture of Biodiesel. Commercial truck stop near me has B99 and B20. That solves the CO2, CO and SoX emission levels for the future goals. Biodiesel the REAL sustainable alternative energy source, without all the environmental hazards from EV type vehicles.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nissan may have shot themselves in the foot with a 38mpg Altima. That's going to grab more headlines than the Leaf ever will.

    CR got a real-world 31 mpg average, too.

    And it is a big, comfortable car, not an econobox.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    There's a lot of life left in ICE.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    I heard Akerson in an interview on cNBC, IIRC, recently, and he mentioned that GM is working on natural gas power as the ultimate solution. I wasn't paying close attention to his talk because I was doing something else. With the supply of natural gas being large and being cheaper than before due to the business world drilling for supply instead of government, that may well be the future.

    Future or not, talk of natural gas engines has been around for decades. That is the more likely solution for us here in flyover country. Electric only vehicles might work in urban areas, but not in Celina, Ohio. The Volt is the ultimate solution, but the high cost of batteries makes it a pricey solution as was the Prius at first except for the tax rebate(s) available to push early buyers toward the Prius.

    Did anyone else hear the Akerson interview?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My short use of the Altima in 2010 tells me it was a better car than the Accord I got stuck with. Unfortunately Budget sold the Altima in the short drive from the airport to the office. That is getting within challenging the hybrids in the class. I don't think the gas savings of a Camry Hybrid would justify the extra cost. Especially if you are mostly highway driving. Don't forget the Passat TDI that is doing well above EPA estimates on their site. Full sized sedans have good options.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think Natural Gas offers a good choice in buses, trucks and commuter vehicles. The Civic NG vehicle continues to be a good choice for business and commuters. Best vehicle to get in the HOV lane in CA. The tanks are big and take up much of the trunk. They have a life span that is about the same as the Prius battery. Very clean and much less complex than a hybrid. If you have access to CNG they would be a good commuter choice.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >If you have access to CNG they would be a good commuter choice.

    I know that some fleets are using natural gas vehicles. I also see some truck stops are installing natural gas fueling locations. I picked up in one news article the stations have to be away from other fueling pumps. The one truck fueling station has the natural gas location 2-300 feet from their buildings and other pumps; the natural gas is located facing I-70, which is at the rear of the truckstop but is a great advertising location for their having CNG available.

    In the past, fuel cells were an area of research for autos for green solutions. I haven't seen much about that lately.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Honda Civic FCX was supposed to be a great car. Honda was going to lease 200 of them starting in 2008. A couple Hollywood wonks leased them with great fanfare. That is the last I have read about them. Much like battery technology. TOO EXPENSIVE with very expensive components.

    There were reports that previous generation fuel-cell cars from Honda cost more than $1 million to build in 2005. Some estimated that Honda had cut its production costs to between $120,000 and $140,000 per vehicle.


    According to wiki about 40 have been leased WW since 2008.

    I would say Fuel Cell vehicles are DOA. GM has closed several R&D locations.

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082068_gm-moves-electric-fuel-cell-work-to-- michigan-from-ca-ny
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm more surprised that the Civic CNG never took off. With filling up at home you may never visit a gas station again, yet if you need to you can.

    Brazilian taxis are mostly CNG now. Much cheaper to run.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We have a lot of CNG buses and taxis in San Diego. Most of the CNG is private. Not sure if any are open for public dispensing. The requirements for home CNG are limited to the line coming into your home. If you have NG. Also tanks are certified for a given amount of years. Once that is reached your vehicle is basically unusable.

    The dilemma has surfaced primarily in California, where early adoption of NGVs in the 1990s was strongest and a mild climate has prompted a growing number of school buses, municipal trucks, and some light-duty vehicles outlasting their CNG cylinder's 15-year lifespan.

    "The challenge before us right now is how can we help fleets that have well-maintained 15-year-old CNG vehicles keep them on the road," said Yborra."

    http://www.government-fleet.com/channel/green-fleet/article/story/2010/05/what-h- appens-when-your-cng-tanks-expire/page/1.aspx
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Buy a new Honda Civic GX and get $3000 in CNG. At today's price that will take you about 70,000 miles. Not bad if it fits your needs.

    http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/?kwid=90548998&adgrpid=2197501254- &ef_id=ZilPBFQWt0YAAEaX:20130309163452:s
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    edited March 2013
    >Once that is reached your vehicle is basically unusable.

    Well that would really be fitting in with the title of this topic: "Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive." Having a tank leak or blow up would really be exciting.

    Might not help with the "Enjoyable" in the title. :sick:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Aside from the Tesla and a few other $100,000 plus EVs, exciting does not apply. Unless of course you look at some of the Green cars in the past couple years.

    Audi A3 TDI is 2010 Green Car of the Year. Clean Diesel Reigns!

    Diesel is the only Green alternative that can give both excitement and ECO friendliness at a reasonable cost. And many of them are MADE IN THE USA.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    2013 Tesla Model S: New Touchscreen Bug Surfaces

    I haven't checked Elon's blog to see if he's going to sue us or track the driver down to his house and repave his driveway or moan that the blog post is going to cost Tesla millions in stock loses. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2013
    This gas station a mile away has CNG. All the ones that fill propane tanks, basically. And it was $22 for a tank, not bad.

    I would have an issue at my beach property. No underground lines there, so I would have to find a refill station there.

    So you still have range anxiety, but it works well for fleets that take the same routes every day.

    Swapping a cylinder should not be too hard, and the metal can be recycled.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It is perfectly competent, but exciting? That may be overstating it a bit.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2010-audi-a3-tdi-instrumented-test

    0-60 in 8.5 seconds lags well behind my minivan. $37 grand plus, too. The Civic CNG with Navi is $10k less, 13k if you add the $3000 credit for fuel.

    32 mpg observed is good in the hands of lead foots, I guess.

    Civic was even slower:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-honda-civic-natural-gas-test-review

    2013 model got much needed upgrades.

    The new A3 should be lighter and hopefully gets a boost in power as well.
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