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Comments
In 15 minutes I had the price I wanted and everything explained to my satisfaction.
Here is what I got
Prius IV in Barcelona Red with Bisque interior with mats, tint and bumper guard.
36 Month Lease with 12K miles.
MSRP 28,272
Negotiated Price 25,782
MF .00152 (SET MF is not nearly as good as elsewhere)
Residual 58% plus 2400 residual assistance = 18,798
I am paying 950 out of pocket to cover tax, tag, title, doc fee etc.
Payment for 35 more months is 284 per month.
I feel like I got a fair deal so I am happy, especially since the car had to be retrieved from another dealer as the red with bisque was nowhere to be found locally the way I wanted it.
I'm looking at the following 2010 Prius III:
.00075 MF
16,184 Residual
24,800 MSRP
When plugging in the monthly figures for the previous posts, I'm not generating a similar figure.
Would also appreciate any feedback for someone who has leased a Prius in the Dallas area.
2010 Prius III (Black, Grey Interior, Cloth Seats, Navigation Package)
Total Agreed Upon Value (Sale Price): $24,646
Acquisition ($650) Doc Prep ($45) CA Tire ($8.75) DMV eFiling ($29)
Residual: $16,333
MF: .00075 (1.80%)
I had about $2,200 in Negative Equity from my trade-in (an '08 Prius), so the Gross Cap Cost was $27,617 (all the above plus $2,200).
Monthly payment came out to about: $372 / month. Based on my calculations, without the $2,200 Negative Equity, my payments would be about $308 / month.
THANK YOU in advance for your comments/thoughts even if they may not be positive!
Nice screen name. Did you attend UCLA? Anyway, I need a bit more information in order to evalute your deal such as MSRP, detailed itemization of options added (if any), amounts financed (i.e. capitalized), cap reduction, and tax rate. You didn't specify the term. I'm guessing 36 months. If so, and assuming you made no cap reduction, I get a base payment of...
0.00075 x (27617 + 16333) + (27617 - 16333) / 36 = 346.41
The money factor looks good and I assume that it reflects the buy rate. The only other item that drives the deal is the sell price. Without knowing the items described above, I really can't comment further.
John
What is "residual assistance" ? I am pretty sure you can't residualize the tint, mats, and bumper thingy on a Toyota lease...
So you are paying for and interest on 100% of the destination charge, and 64.6% of the options / accessories - and of course interest on the full price of the car and principle on 32% of it.
If ALL you pay at signing is $249 - nothing else, not even first payment, then depending on your tax rate this is not bad. There is a $650 bank fee to be paid, taxes, title, license fees, first payment, etc. Sounds like it is all rolled in to the deal.
The key is the selling price of the car - how much are you paying for it? The net cap cost before any fees or cap cost reduction is applied?
The III MSRP may be the same /similar, but with no options the whole MSRP (less destination) can be residualized. I also do not know the III residual percent, but I would GUESS it may be a little higher than the II. With a higher percent, same MF, and more of the MSRP being able to be residualized you may find the payment is less.
The residual should go down 2 points from 68% to 66% if you go with 15k on the II. You will have to calculate the new payment and see. Keep in mind, your residual dollar amount is not derived properly from full MSRP so you will be unable to figure it for yourself exactly.
I'm in New Jersey (Bergen County to be specific)
Lease Term: 36 12k/miles or even 10k
First Month Payment only down.
I'm looking for a Prius II, or Prius III, no options necessary. Need the payment to be less than $250.. Is this possible?
Called Dealer #1
Prius II
MSRP: 23,819 (Floor mats and Rear Bumber Application, which i don't need)...
Money Factor: .00020
Terms: 36mo, and 12k miles
Residual Value- 15,504
He would not give me a monthly Lease price, said he needs me in the dealership.. I Dont want to waste my time or his time, so I need to be educated on what to expect and how much should i be paying
Called Dealer #2
MSRP: 23,750
Money Factor: .00020
Terms: 36 mo and 12k miles
Resisdual Value - 15,504
No money down only first month payment he said it will be $265 a month. Is this good? can i get him under $250?
... Please help
First, in answer to your questions, $265 is not good. I'm absolutlely certain that you can get a payment below $250. Are you sure that the money factor is 0.00020? I thought it was 0.00075. Even if it is 0.00075, I'm fairly certain that you can get a payment below $250. You left a few items out (e.g., doc fee, acquisition fee, sales tax rate) and so I'll try to cover all the bases.
1st Rule. Never allow the dealer to control the deal.
2nd. Rule. You hit the nail squarely... educate yourself about leasing. Here's a start for whatever it's worth...
A huge item that is often overlooked in leasing is the treatment given sales tax. On October 1, 2005, New Jersey joined a 22 state coalition and bought into the Streamlined Sales and Use Tax Law. The key points governing sales tax treatment given to motor vehicle leases in New Jersey, under this law, are briefly summarized in the following document
http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/streamfaqs.shtml
An important provision is described at Item 12 in the above doc
"12. The Division has indicated that the tax base will be reduced by the value of a trade-in of property owned by the lessee that is accepted by the lessor as partial payment.
(a) Does this rule apply under both the original purchase price method and the total lease payments method?
(b) In determining whether the lessee is the owner of property, what is controlling (i.e. GAAP, UCC, tax treatment)? For example, a lessee trades in property subject to a finance lease. Is the tax base reduced if the lessee is considered the owner for GAAP purposes?
Since the tax is imposed on the lessee, the trade-in credit is applicable under both calculation methods. However, in both cases, the lessor must disclose the tax base (purchase price or lease payments), as well as the amount of sales tax due, on the paperwork provided to the lessee. As long as the property traded in was originally acquired by the lessee, it does not matter if there is an amount owed to pay off a loan. The trade in credit is based on the amount of value allowed by the dealer/lessor against the lease."
This document also describes the two methods for computing sales tax in NJ:
(1) tax rate x manufacturer’s invoice price (Item 7) and;
(2) tax rate x total taxable lease payments; otherwise, known as the total payment
method (Item 8)
Either way, you can roll the tax (finance) into the lease (see below). More than likely, you’ll want to opt for (2- total payment method) as it is usually the cheaper of the two methods.
The best way to illustrate the sales tax calculation methodology and, subsequent lease payment calculation, is to use a concrete example. Because the first method is straight forward, I’ll describe the second using a hypothetical example. What follows is somewhat long-winded, so please hang-in. Consider a lease, originating in NJ, with the following data
Adjusted MSRP . 22,800
Sell Price (S)... . ... 20,000 (negotiated)
Acq. Fee (A) . .. 650 (Acq Fees are taxable in NJ)
Trade Equity (Q)... .. (500) (we’ll assume financed negative equity- NOT taxable in NJ)
Cap reduction (D) ... 600 (assume $600 cash down- taxable in NJ)
Cap reduction: trade credit (T).. 1,000 (assumed trade-in allowance- NOT taxable in NJ)
Money factor (F) . 0.00020 (assumed)
Residual Factor . 0.68 (assumed)
Residual Value (R) . 15,504 (Residual Factor x Adj. MSRP)
Term (N months).... . 36
NJ Sales Tax Rate (t) 7.00% (assumed)
NJ Sales Tax (X)................... _____ (to be computed... see below)
Note that the entire trade-in value of $1,000 is non-taxable in NJ; regardless of the fact that a $1,500 loan balance remains outstanding producing negative equity in the amount of $500.
Taxable Payment = F x (C + R) + (C – R) / 36
For purposes of computing the taxable payment, the adjusted cap cost is...
C = S + A - T
= 20,000 + 650 - 1,000
= 19,650
Taxable Payment = 0.00020 x (19,650 + 15,504) + (19,650 – 15,504) / 36
= 122.20
NJ Sales Tax Payment Liability = X = Total Payment Tax
= (t x N x Taxable Payment)
= (0.07 x 36 x 122.20)
= 307.94
The taxable payment is NOT the "lease payment". It's only purpose is to compute tax liability and is, therefore, an intermediate calculation.
Now, let's compute the LEASE PAYMENT...
The new adj. cap cost is C* = S + A - Q - D + X
= 20,000 + 650 - (-500) - 600 + 307.94
= 20,857.94
Lease Payment = 0.00020 x (20,857.94 + 15,504) + (20,857.94 – 15,504) / 36
= 155.99
Observe that I rolled the acquisition fee (A), negative equity (Q), and taxes (X) into the lease payment calculation. Of course, you can elect to pay these upfront if you like. Also, note that the only roll that the trade-in value plays, in this example, is to compute the taxable payment. Beyond that, it's irrelevant and is not used to compute the lease payment. This is triggered by the fact that money is still owed (which the dealer pays) on the trade.
Your intitial costs, payable at lease inception, are assumed to be the the 1st payment of $155.99, plus $600 down, plus any required security deposit ($200), plus DMV fees and dealer doc fees, plus any other miscellaneous fees, plus applicable taxes on upfront fees.
You can use the above and apply it to your own situation. For instance, if you don't have a trade or, equity in a trade, simply replace the assigned values above with zero. If you're not putting any cash down, then replace 600 with zero.
The most important items in any lease transaction are the money factor and selling price. You should always try to get the buy rate (money factor with 0% reserves) and negotiate the lowest possible sell price. Check Edmunds for invoice price information and scan the posts to see what others are paying in terms of sell price. Also, check overstock at zag.com for competitive sell price information in your area.
Questions? Please let me know.
John
PS: Never put money down on a car as it's a depreciating asset. If the car is totaled or stolen and, never recovered, you risk losing a portion of or all of your down payment. Down payment means cap reduction.
A couple of points: the residual you list is valid for a II with no options, the residual for a III would be $16,194.
The correct MSRP should be $23,550 - you left out the $750 destination charge.
Invoice including destination is $22,785 and hold back is 2% of MSRP, say $456 if we don't include destination in the calc. With no other known incentives that can be combined with the cheap lease deal, I don't see any way someone could get your $20,000 negotiated price. Prices do vary by region as do the lease deals, but I still don't see that number possible AND a cheap lease deal.
If your read my post carefully, you'll discover that my example is purely hypothetical. I don't know the exact MSRP and I routinely include destination in the MSRP as most fund providers residualize destination. However, TFS may be an exception. I simply rigged the MSRP so that 68% x MSRP = 15,504. And, of course, it came out to $22,800 (recall your leasecompare post). Also, my sell price of $20,000, again, is strictly hypothetical. I leave it to the reader to supply the correct information. This was purely a teaching exercise in which I supplied a template with hypothetical data. The data can be changed to meet the requirements of a specific lease transaction.
Regarding a payment of less than $250...
If we assume an adjusted cap of $23,450 (including acq fee and NJ taxes) and a $15,504 residual coupled with a 0.00075 money factor, the payment is $249.94. So, yes, an under $250 payment expectation is very realistic and certainly doable for a II in NJ.
John
Actually, you posted .00020 which seemed extremely low which is why I asked if you were sure as I was thinking that it should be 0.00075 instead.
If you have excellent credit, you should be able to get the top tier rate which is 0.00075. The 0.00200 money factor seems very high. A credit score in the 650-690 range could trigger such a high money factor.
At 0.00200, there is no way that you're going to get a payment below $250 unless your adjusted cap is $21,790. If, indeed, you can't do better than the 0.00200 money factor, I would take the $265 payment and run with it! Before you do anything else, though, double check that money factor because that's very critical.
John
John
Here are the deals:
Prius II Lease Option:
Amount due at signing includes DOWN PAYMENT of $1,800, FIRST MONTHLY PAYMENT of $199 and no security deposit. Tax, title and license are extra. Based on MODEL #1223 (5 Dr. Hatchback) TOTAL MSRP $24,374, & NET CAPITALIZED COST of $22,273. LEASE END PURCHASE OPTION is $15,232 plus tax, title and license. Customer is responsible for excess wear & tear and 15 cents per mile over 36,000 miles. Dealer participation may affect final negotiated price and applicable taxes. NOT ALL CUSTOMERS WILL QUALIFY. Payments are calculated using TFS Tier 1+ rate. Other tier credit payments are higher. Offer ends 8/2/2010 and you must take delivery from dealer stock between 6/2/2010 and 8/2/2010. Offers available in AR, LA, MS, OK, and TX. 2010 EPA 51/48/50 city/highway/combined mpg estimates. Actual mileage will vary.
Prius II Purchase Option: $24,000 walk out
0.0%, 2.9%, 2.9% Annual Percentage Rates (APR) on all new 2010 Toyota Prius Models available to Tiers I+, I, II and III customers with approved credit through Toyota Financial Services only. Special APR available on 36 month loans, monthly payments of $27.78 per $1,000.00 borrowed; 48 month loans, monthly payments of $22.09 per $1,000.00 borrowed and 60 month loans, monthly payments of $17.92 per $1,000.00 borrowed. Offer ends 8/2/2010 and you must take delivery from dealer stock between 6/2/2010 and 8/2/2010. Not available with lease offers. Dealer sets final price. Contact Dealer for details. Offers available in AR, LA, MS, OK, and TX.
What is "residual assistance" ?
Notice also the lease deal is limited to tier 1+ while the purchase rate is available to those with lesser credit.
Leasing is not for everyone, no matter if a lease deal is better than a purchase deal. If you drive a lot of miles, trade cars often, don't take good care of your cars, or don't have top notch credit then leasing is not for you.
The MSRP on the III is $1,000 more than the II and that is just for an upgraded stereo and BT hands-free. Does not sound like most folks should or would want to pay that extra, but that is not the case if you are leasing.
The invoice difference between the II and III is $750 so that is (hopefully) all the extra you will be asked to pay when you negotiate your selling price. The good news is that the residual percentage is the same for both, So if you have a II with just mats and III with just mats you are looking at $23,750 MSRP, $22,912 invoice and $24,750 and $23,662 invoice.
Residual (here, anyway) is 68% of MSRP not including the mats or $750 destination for 12k leases and 66% for 15k leases. So $22,800 * .68 = $15,504 * .66 is $15,048 for the II and $23,800 * .68 = $16,184 * .66 = $15,708 for the III.
So on the 12k lease the residual difference is $680 and $660 for the 15k. Since the difference at invoice between the II and III is just $750 then your extra cost for the III over the II is just $70 for the 12k lease and $90 on the 15k lease! Divide by 36 payments and you have < $2 a month or $2.50 more to get the III (plus interest, but here that is 1.8% effective using 0.00075). Now that is a no brainer if I ever saw one!!!
The only downside is that it is easy to find a II equipped like you want it, there are few options (mats and bumper thingy being the most common) while a lot of the III models are loaded up with the NAV pack or NAV + roof pack. For pennies a day it is worth finding a non-loaded III and enjoying your upgrades :-)
Prius III with just mats and the dealer installed remote start (0% residualized, of course).
MSRP: $24,750 + remote start ($529 or more)
Sell price: $23,985 including remote start
Acquisition fee: $650
Doc fee: $250
Taxes / fees / tags / title: $99
Net Cap cost: $24,984 including remote start
Residual: $15,708 (high mile)
Term: 36 months / 15k miles per year
Money factor: 0.00075 (1.8%)
Payment: $288.19 + tax
Due at signing: first payment + tax
Not the world's best deal, but I thought it was a nice deal. My wife loves the car so far. I did get quotes from several other dealers, one that came too late was $268.64 plus tax per month with just 1st payment due at signing. This was for a III with just mats, no car starter at this price.
"Valid in NY, NJ and CT only.
Lease a new 2010 Prius for $179 a month for 36 months with $1,799 due at signing, which includes $1,799 down payment which totals $1,620 down, and $179 first month's payment and $0 security deposit.
Example based on model #1223. Base MSRP excluding freight is $22,950. Monthly payments of $179 total $6,444."
What other fees can I expect? What is a Lease inception fee? Tax in NJ is 7%. Does this apply to $179. per month or part of it?
Lease inception fees are fees that are due and payable at lease inception such as DMV fees and taxes. For instance, both NY and NJ require that taxes be paid at lease inception. However, taxes (or any fee for that matter) can be capitalized (i.e., financed) in the lease. The fund provider simply pays them on your behalf and, then, finances them in your lease. Doing so, of course, will increase your payment. The $170 payment in the ad does not include taxes and assumes they're paid upfront at lease inception by you.
Besides the acquisition fees, other fees include DMV/Gov fees, dealer doc fee, and taxes. You may want to read my post #170, for whatever it's worth, to get an understanding of the entire process.
Hope this helps.
John
1. The amt due at signing was incorrect, & instead of lowering other fees, the dealer refused to change the contract & instead gave me a so-called “Bill of Sale” w a hand-written note that dealer “to pay DMV fees of $274.13 (the amt overcharged via our agreement). Is this legit? Will the dealer pay the DMV fees?
2. Some basic figures were correct (ie: the sales price, monthly payment and total monthly payments); however, others were not (ie: cap cost reduction [my trade-in is shown in the one section, but not on the line for cap cost reduction, instead another fee half the amt of the trade-in is shown], adjusted cost reduction & adjusted cap cost are incorrect—higher than they should be). Depreciation & rent charges are shown, whereas I didn’t have them in my worksheet. Is it a problem that the basic figures are correct, but others are not? Do I need to go back to the dealer and tell them to revise the contract and make it correct, so I don’t run into problems in the future? Can cap cost reduction, adj’d cost reduction, & adj’d cap cost come into play in the future, or are they only used to calculate the monthly payment?
3. The receipt for my first month’s payment only shows that it was paid, it doesn’t show the balance due. When I asked the dealer about this, he said it doesn’t show the balance. I’d feel better if the receipt showed the balance due, esp since the contract shows an inflated amt due.
Thank you for your response! I appreciate your feedback & advice.
Artwheels
Edmunds MSRP: $29,840
Agreed Upon Value: $27413.53
Total Capitalized Cost: $27413.53 + $650 acquisition fee -$8.99 Cap cost reduction = $28054.54
Residual Value: $18713.00
MF: 0.00016
Drive off including first month's payment, title, etc. $744
Lease payments including tax: $293
Any feedback for future negotiations would be great. Is the acquisition fee negotiable?
Sounds like your dealer engages in sloppy half-assed business practices. Personally, I have zero tolerance for slop. I would insist that the contract be re-done with correct figures. Incorrect items such as cap cost reductions and the adjusted capcost are inexcusable. I would contact the dealer's GM if you haven't already done so. Without seeing your contract, though, it's difficult for me to comment.
The bottom line is that you have a right to documents that are accurately completed. Hand-written notes in lieu of typed IOU's, signed by an authorized individual (e.g., GM), is disgraceful and grossly unprofessional.
You need to return to the dealer and demand that the contract be completed correctly. Lease agreements are sent to the fund provider and, if you decide to terminate the lease early, you may be overcharged particularly if the adjusted cap is overstated. However, the fund provider generally requires both the dealer's LEASE WORKSHEET as well as the agreement and performs an accuracy check. If there are any mistakes, they kick it back to the dealer in most instances. But, I wouldn't rely on the fund provider to do this. This nation is loaded with incompetence and laziness. And, yet, some people have the nerve to wonder why jobs are going overseas... wages is just a small part of it... believe me.
If you like, email me a copy of your lease agreement at
diffeq@zoominternet.net
and I'll be happy to analyze it for you.
John
The folks at TFS will also require that the numbers make sense - the residual has to be the same as shown on the invoice for the car and the MF has to be no lower than the advertised rate (though the dealer can mark that up). The net cap cost is the only other thing that really matters, the difference between that and the residual with the MF applied has to resolve to your payment. Unless there are math errors shown in the contract if those numbers work out then they will approve and fund the contract. If the out of pocket is right along with the payment and the dealer does not come after you for more than you already paid up front, then the other stuff may not matter - but it should have been done correctly in the first place.
John
Thank you SO MUCH for your feedback. It is MOST HELPFUL! I appreciate your kind offer to analyze my lease very much. I've emailed it to you, & look forward to your comments.
Gratefully,
Artwheels
I am working with a Northern California Toyota dealer on a Prius III lease and here is what they can offer me:
Base Prius III (no roof or Navi) with floor mats and cargo mat. 36-month lease with 12K miles annually. $0.15 per miles over 36K miles. 2-year schedule maintenance is also included.
No money down and nothing due at signing which includes all doc fees, first year registration, and first month lease payment and tax. I just sign the paper and take the car.
I am responsible for 35 payments of $240 + tax and the 2nd and 3rd year DMV registration.
I could get all the lease related figures by backing out the numbers but the deal seems pretty good to me by just looking at the sum of cash outflow. ($240 X35 = $8400) vs. the advertised deal on TV which is $1999 down and $199 per month for 36 months ($1999 + ($199X35) = $8,964 but for a Prius II.
Any comments?
Thanks a bunch.
To really analyze the deal you need to know the agreed selling price of the car. That plus any dealer doc or prep fees gives us a number we can compare to invoice or other folk's prices at see how the car is priced in your deal. The DMV, taxes, bank fee, MF, residual, etc are all fixed for you so the only thing you can change to help the deal is a lower selling price - if possible.
We leases a III for my wife last month and paid first payment only at signing and our base payment is higher than yours. But every area is different (pricing, incentives, lease residuals and money factors, etc) and that was last month as well.
Get the selling price and see if there is more meat on the bone you can take off, but just based on $0 down and $240 + tax for a III that sounds really good to me.
Prius III Invoice $22156
Reduction to Invoice $(577.59)
Destination $760
Acquisition fee $650
Doc Fees $45
Tax on doc $4.39
CA Tires fee $8.75
DMV $29 (got that from previous posts let me know if that is not true)
Dealers pays for First month and taxes $263.4
Dealers pays for mats set and cargo net $160 (estimate)
Total Capitalized Amount $23498.95
I used MF= 0.00075 or 1.8% APR
Residual value (68% of MSRP, excluding Destination) $16,184
35 Monthly Payments left ($240 + tax of 9.75%) = $263.40 (or $9219 for the lease term)
Terms: 36 months lease with 12K mile annually.
One thing I am a bit confused.... should there be first year DMV registration as well? That usually costs $200-300 if I am buying a new car... but not sure how it works for leased cars. The dealer told me that they will pay for first year and I will pay for 2nd and 3rd.
I think it is not bad of a deal but please confirm ... I dropped by another dealer last night, the guy's first offer was $600 down and $273 + tax per month. That was without the mats and cargo net... the difference in face value is over $1700. Of course, I didn't negotiate at all and walked out of the dealership in about 20 minutes.
So what do you guys think??? I would go in a sign the lease tonight!
I am looking into a Prius lease. I just want the sunroof, but you have to get NAV + roof. I am looking into the numbers to see if I will do this. However, I think its getting out of my price range. I was told MSRP $28,849 my price $26,897 less $750 rebate. Residual is only $16,683. They want $679.84 ( which includes your 1st monthly payment ). The Lease is $343.59/month. Not bad, but unless I can get this down to $300 range its not worth it to me. Does the residual seem low? I read post earlier for IV with NAV in CA and residual was in the $18k range. I also read Dyane's post that 68% of MSRP for residual. That puts it at $19,617. However, I am not sure if that applies to III with roof. Also, is there any way to get out of the lease inception fees. I hate paying fees when I am already paying interest to them. Money factor quoted was .00075 In NE Ohio. Thanks
Alan
I would be interested in which dealer as well... Thats a great deal!
MSRP: $34,280
Residual: $19,713
MF: 0.00016
I paid $500 cash to help with the drive-off fees.
Monthly Payments are $341 before tax, $380 after tax (San Diego, CA)
As many people have stated before, 68% (for 12K miles) of the base price of the car contributes to the residual, while the options contribute almost nothing. As a result, the cars with the big-ticket options are sitting on the lot longer, which gives the buyer more negotiating power.
The best offer I got is reproduced below. I couldn't get any dealer to match the agreed upon value of $27413.53 th
Agreed Upon Value: $27644.22
Total Capitalized Cost: $27644.22 + $45 Doc Fee + $650 Acquisition Fee = $28339.22
Residual Value: 18713
MF: 0.000016
Drive off including first month's payment, title, etc: $1000
Monthly payments with tax: $293
So I guess the main difference is the extra $256 I paid on the drive off. How do you guys think I did? Where could I have negotiated to get a better deal? It's my first lease and my wife is looking to get a Prius too so any advice you can share is valuable.