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Afraid Camry Owner - Toyota found to keep tight lid on potential safety
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Comments
Because Japanese cars counts as more reliable and safer cars than Germans. Excellent example of the marketing. I had 3 Japanese cars, before I switched to German and now I'm happy driver. Why did I wasted so much time moving in an appliance when I was able to drive a car!!!
This topic is not for discussing the motives, education, or reasonableness of other people. Please keep in mind that people are going to have different levels of risk tolerance, and it's not OK to mock someone for being more or less afraid of this potential danger than you are.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoIIT0WJS4s
I'm sure the technobrats will lambast this as being to simplistic but unfortunately, it speaks volumes
Even if it is not a soda can or floor mat - the Toyota products CAN be effectively stopped with a stuck or runaway accelerator.
In one of his statements he illustrates vicariously the problem with consumers these days - operating machinery that has the propensity to be extremely dangerous and.... They can't be bothered to even poke their nose into the owners manual to avoid a deadly situation.
His exact phrase; "Actually to shut off the engine on this car, you'd have to basically read the manual to figure out how to do it.....On this one you have to hold the engine button for three seconds..." Sadly, all his counterpoints TO the points he brings up illustrates a driver NOT familiar with their vehicle.
Wow.... Read the owners manual..... What a concept!
I still find it amazing that a police officer was not able to cripple that vehicle in San Diego with all the EVOC training they do - I put police driving skills right up there with someone with an SCCA license.... very troubling.
With my own experience with the stuck accelerator, it is VERY startling and I can see that some people would actually become very frightened but you MUST be in control of the vehicle at all times.
Incidentally, Jake Fisher REALLY IS an automotive engineer.
Sorry if I've offended anyone here. As for myself.... "bonehead" pretty much fits the bill, nothing new there.....
My wife is pleading with me to depart this subject and go out and get some fresh air, I will.
Back to lurking.......
I drive an 07 Prius now with over 61K trouble free miles. I have no problem with unintentional accelerations with this car. I have spoken with family and friends with 01 thru 09 Camrys, and they have no such problems with their gas pedals.
The Camry is one of the best but boring family car out there. I would not hesitate buying a new Camry.
1956 Ford in eastern MT, mechanical coupling came lose and got trapped in WO position....manual transmission, no sweat.
1960 Ford Sunliner, coming down mountain pass in the wintertime, snow clogged the pedal/throttle coupling...shifted into neutral.
1998-2000 new Mazda Miata, test drive...dealer had installed temporary protective cardboard floor mats, every time I seriously applied the brakes...manual transmission.
~2005 Mazda Minivan, rented, floor mat, drove right out into an intersection with a red light, elongated stopping distance.
I'll be 70 this year...waning.....NOT.
Yes, by all means, all 350 pages
I was just at Bellevue Lexus asking for a 2010 F/awd RX350 owners manual and a quiet reading corner. That's my standard procedure before buying a new car.
NOT buying a new 2010 RX.
It is my STRONG opinion that dealers should be required to provide a training course for all new vehicles, especially concerning new features.
also to answer the previous posters question, i've had a floor mat interfere with the accelerator many times - usually with aftermarket floormats! it's not an uncommon occurrence and need not be a fatal one.
seems like we've gone a few days without anynew reports of increased toyota customer casualties/fatalities relating to unintended-acceleration... So that's some good news!
then you must be wishing to pay $50K for a Camry, or $100K for a Lexus.
Dollar is dropping so far that you better hope you don't have an expensive taste for anything foreign.
most (all?) cars bias the brake power to the front brakes rather than rear for stability reasons.
If the rear brakes were to have stronger bias than the front ones, it would lose traction first and your vehicle would start to fish tail.
That's why you see bigger rotors in the front than in the rear for vehicles equip'd with all around disc brakes, or front disc / rear drum which has less grip than disc brakes.
cars with all around disc brakes achieve that via proportioning valves.
But...."bias to the rear"..NEVER.
Moderated to the rear, yes, but NEVER biased to the rear.
I will stand up and be counted as one who thinks this to be a mistake. I am of the mind that ALL light to moderate braking should initially occur ONLY at the rear. Front braking should only be brought "on-line" once a predetermined, HIGH, brake fluid pressure level is reached/attained, ABS detects impending lockup of the rear wheels, or BA activates as a result of the high initial rate of brake pedal depression.
Nowadays we have four wheel independent ABS/TC/VSC/BA/EBD brake pressure control manifolds. Manifolds with the capability of releasing or isolating brake pressure on any wheel(s) that ABS detects is approaching lockup, and also with the ability to APPLY brake pressure if TC detects wheelspin/slip resulting from the use of too much engine torque for current roadbed conditions.
BA..Brake Assist...Use EXTRA brake pressure assist if the driver is doing a panic stop, "signaled"/indicated by an unusually rapid initial depression of the brake pedal.
EBD...Electronic Braking (pressure) distribution. Electronic form of the old obsolete proportioning valve. EBD is used to limit (isolate or release brake pressure) the level of brake presssure applied to the rear wheels.
VSC..Vehicle Stability Control...look it up.
Proportioning valves are now mostly a thing of the past and have been for more than 8-10 years.
Too long a gas pedal or a buggy electronics throttle control are design issues, not manufacturing issues. Cars with such designs will have the same problems no matter it's made in Japan or the US.
Investigate first, post later.
Investigate first, post later."
I know that and that's why the cars that are 100% Japanese made which have all Japanese manufactured parts are HIGHER QUALITY and MUCH BETTER vehicles.
That's what I've been trying to tell everybody here for the last few weeks, but nobody wants to accept this.
Isn't Honda having more A/C problems on the Japanese CRV than the ones made in England? Although I have to be honest and say if there was a made in Japan
Camry and a domestically built Camry on the dealer lot at the same price, I'd probably go for the one made in Japan. I think D3 has spent a number of years pressing domestic parts makers to keep cutting costs and now Honda and Toyota use some of these same US vendors.
So that's where Toyota got that genius idea on cost cutting?
Toyota cutting parts cost
ponderpoint: I am sure glad that you have cleared that up. You talk about people acting like doctors, engineers and rocket scientist behind the wall of this forum but you have them all beat with your crystal ball. You do not know what the policeman did to attempt to stop the Lexus so I would not be so quick to judge his actions. I know how to stop a run away car but does that mean I will let my 16 year old daughter drive a Toyota? I don't think so. You might try looking in the mirror.
Is everyone brain washed by Toyota? No obyone you can not blame D-3 for Toyota's mistakes. All companies do cost cutting and if they don't they will not be around long. The trick is to be smart about it. Do you shop at Walmart? they are the kings of pressing their vendors to cut cost. Toyota and Honda are big boys and make their own decisions and now they must live with them.
this is an indicator of the "more bias towards rear brakes than in old days".
(maybe not more than 50% though? just moderately more than in the old days?)
to my eye, these software/electronics/fail-safe issues are all relevant to the current Toyota problems and their vehicles' brakes inability to always properly stop the car, their ignitions' inability to always turn off the car, their shifters' inability to always shift drivetrain to neutral.
before we sentence Toyota to lifetime in jail, could we at least establish those "inabilities"? for example, how did YOU know that the driver engaged the brake before the crash?
just wanted to make sure that we are on the same page.
I've shown my wife what to do by shifting to Neutral at 70 mph on the highway. Neither of our vehicles is involved in the issue.
I think Toyota and Honda have effectively become American companies and that's part of the problem - short term gain brings long term pain. Everything is focused on the current quarter unfortunately which leads to dumb decisions in order to juice up the quarterly financial reports.
The problem is the <50 year american consumer's FOCUS, SOLE focus, on price, LOW price.
Think about why WalMart is so successful...!!
Get these "immature" american consumers to start shopping VALUE along with price and within a few short years you will see a difference, improvement in reliability and quality.
Stop being "bottom feeders".
We had fun last night and took a 2007 Tacoma V-6 Ext. Cab 4WD (the owner wasn't to keen on the idea but finally agreed) and simulated a stuck accelerator. We tried to simulate panic and pumped the brakes and as Jake Fisher from Consumer Reports illustrated - the brakes completely failed with the gas pedal jammed. There was no warning light however (maybe the Tacoma doesn't have it) and even knowing we were deliberately causing the brake failure it was still very startling! The only rule we had was that the driver had to stop the vehicle quickly after the brake failure....
Every single driver reached for the ignition first!! With the engine cut but still spinning with compression there was absolutely no problem stopping the vehicle as normal brakes returned!! Steering was fine and never even approached a level of an old vehicle that never had power steering (remember those?)
Not really fond of replacing brake pads, the owner agree to one panic stop using only the emergency brake (or parking brake if it makes you happy) and the truck stopped fine, even violently.
We had a couple beers in a local tavern AFTER the event (this stunt was already dangerous enough without alcohol involved) and EVERYBODY in the conversation agreed: cut the ignition, try to brake and put it in neutral.
It was unanimous agreement that if somebody didn't know where neutral was (Jake Fisher's concern) they had absolutely NO business being near a motor vehicle, sixteen-years-old or sixty!!
No squirrels were harmed at any time.
Consumer focus on low price over value is a problem in many industries. However, I think you're optimistic. Even if customers paid more for value, quarterly Wall Street profit pressure would still lead to dumb cost cutting and other moves by companies listed on the stock exchanges. Its all about stock price and executive bonuses in today's world.
WOT also...??
Sorry, I find that really heard to accept/believe. Even assuming the Tacoma had rear drum brakes I can't see the e-brake application doing that. Even if the brake brought the rear wheels to FULL lock it seems impossible to me that the Tacoma would do anything other that "glide" (slowly) to a stop.
Or in this case does "violently" describe locked and skidding rear wheels...??
Even assuming you had the Tacoma locked into 4WD mode wherein the rear implemented e-brake might also LOCK the front wheels I find it hard to believe, considering you said that normal braking failed to do so, that the e-brake could really overcome the WOT engine torque.
But, assuming the engine wasn't WOT, the Tacoma was locked into 4WD, and you applied the e-brake thereby bringing ALL four wheels to LOCKED, then yes, that would have been one WILD ride, for only a moment, but WILD.
I have a 97 4Runner with 140,000 miles and have never had a probloem with it.
Not sure I agree with the import cars made in Japan vs. made in USA though,I think the Japanese automakers are cutting back to make more profit margin period.
I had a 1992 Nissan Maxima that was bullit proff. I bought a 2003 Maxima and I have relaced things on that car that I never had to replace on the 92. Both made in Japan???
Toyota Recall, Murky Messaging Spurs Consumer Mistrust
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
However much evidence seems consistent that some of the dead ex-toyota-drivers did stomp the brake, did try shifting to neutral, did try turning off ignition.
a clue to this is when the drivers (CHP officer was one) are on the phone with 911 operator, saying something close "it won't shift to neutral, it won't turn off, the brakes don't work, oh oh, here comes an intersection, hold on."
a second later the cop and his family were all dead.
I think the difference when you clearly don't know that the brakes failed, the engines couldn't be turned, or the transmission couldn't be shifted into neutral, you stated that they did.
when others didn't know if the drivers were at fault, we asked "is it possible that the drivers were at fault?".
can you comprehend the difference now?
berri: I agree with you I have never looked at a new Lexus but I think they are $50,000 and up and they have the same issue as the $20,000 Camry. I think it is greed. You might have better luck getting a quality car from an up and coming company like Hyundia
Probably because it's rubbish.
I doubt if Toyota is any different than Honda but I have NEVER been able to detect one quality difference between Japan and US built Hondas.
I suppose Toyota could be different but I doubt it.
"Well, I'd love to respond but I don't know what the ^$$^## WOT means.
I'm assuming you mean some sort of engine out of control with drivetrain still engaged..... Yes - we pinned the accelerator to the floor which was terrifying enough (I don't recommend it) and all drivers were able to stop the truck after the brake failure (caused by pumping) and if you simply stopped pumping the brakes, they came back.
In no situation was brake being applied against out of control engine STILL connected to drivetrain - simply turning the ignition killed all problems. I strongly disagree with Jake Fisher on ignition "cut-out" it fixed all problems INSTANTLY!
We're currently trying to find one of the push button ignitions and we're going to try to simulate not knowing pressing and holding the button for three seconds kills the engine.
Yes, the parking brake "chirped" the back wheels but we didn't find this significant because.... It's a pick-up - anybody familiar with pick-ups knows they have ^%$^% for traction unless they're engaged in 4WD.
On the other point, no - 4WD was never engaged in any case.
"Toyota halts sales of 8 recalled vehicle models."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100126/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall
Wow!!!
Happened to catch CBS news saying that the half to production indicates Toyota doesn't have a handle on the problem and the real cause.
They've had long enough since the earlier crashes if they hadn't been so busy trying to pass it off as consumer misuse of mats in _all_ of the cases and if they had started investigating earlier.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota needs to raise its game.
This AutoBlog column is simply another restatement of the false article that the LAT printed.
Oh really? Cannot wait to see how you try to spin Toyota's latest action.
"Toyota Motor Co. said Tuesday it was suspending U.S. sales of eight recalled vehicle models to fix accelerator pedals that stick, the latest quality problem to confront the world's No. 1 automaker.
As part of the plan, Toyota said it was halting production at five manufacturing facilities for the week of Feb. 1 "to assess and coordinate activities." There are 2.3 million vehicles involved in the recall, which was announced last week.
"This action is necessary until a remedy is finalized," said Bob Carter, Toyota's group vice president and general manager.
The Japanese automaker says the sales suspension includes the 2009-2010 RAV4, the 2009-2010 Corolla, the 2009-2010 Matrix, the 2005-2010 Avalon, the 2007-2010 Camry, the 2010 Highlander, the 2007-2010 Tundra and the 2008-2010 Sequoia.
It was unclear how long Toyota would suspend production of the vehicles. In an e-mail to employees, company officials said, "we don't know yet how long this pause will last but we will make every effort to resume production soon." Toyota officials did not immediately return phone messages.
Toyota said the company would stop producing vehicles at plants in Indiana, Kentucky, Texas and Canada. They said no other North American Toyota facility would be affected by the decision.
The auto company said the sales suspension would not affect Lexus or Scion vehicles. Toyota said the Prius, Tacoma, Sienna, Venza, Solara, Yaris, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser, Land Cruiser and select Camry models, including all Camry hybrids, would remain for sale.
Toyota said last week it was recalling 2.3 million vehicles in the U.S. to fix accelerator pedals with mechanical problems that could cause them to become stuck.
That announcement followed a larger recall months earlier of 4.2 million vehicles because of problems with gas pedals becoming trapped under floor mats, causing sudden acceleration. That problem was the cause of several crashes, including some fatalities."
'there's no problems here; pay no attention to that man behind the curtain'!
This is serious stuff, and one can only imagine if this was happening to a Big Three maker right this very day.
Bill
I honestly think their quality has been impacted over the past several years, but it is kind of mindset that people have become accustomed to of "you want the best quality, then buy a Toyota". Unfortunately, people have just continued to buy into that mentality without really seeing what they have been getting in recent years.
Take a look at Hyundai. Many laugh at the name when the hear it, but Hyundai is no laughing matter these days and it what Toyota needs to REALLY be worried about. Change isn't easy and many people are steadfast in their ways and how they look at things. The same is true with the auto industry.
It appears a new day has dawn...
The sleazebag PR-types at Toyota who have been trying to downplay this issue, seem to have gotten told to stop running their mouths, from someone at the top (the board) of Toyota. It'll be interesting to see who's demoted or let go within the executive ranks of Toyota.
This whole topic just gets weirder and more bizarre.
The actions taken by Toyota pretty much cancel out any further speculation on my part. This his historic and unprecedented and they have either admitted to serious defects or, given in to a faction of people that in reality..... need driving lessons and shouldn't be anywhere near a motor vehicle.
Pick your poison.....
The subject of your OP was the LAT article which is largely fabricated in it's statements. My comments remain unchanged and accurate.
The voluntary recall last week and the suspension of sales today are actually exactly the opposite of your original contention.
Speculation again -- I hope you're happy with the latest turn of events. But you realize the engineers were probably hard at work behind the scenes while the PR department said something else. In any case, it's commendable Toyota is stopping production of the cars with the gas pedal "stiction" problem (as opposed to the floor mat issue) until a definitive fix can be found.
As for me, I'm keeping my older Camrys. They're not affected by either recall and have done fine by me. It will be a long time before I buy another car again, unless the unexpected happens. At that time, I'll survey the automotive landscape and make a decision.
That implies that you know that it is NOT true, otherwise it's only another opinion on your part just as mine is presented as my opinion, which I'm allowed to do. :mad:
>I hope you're happy
Of course I'm not happy.
>But you realize the engineers were probably hard at work behind the scenes
I won't point out that could be speculation or an opinion.
I think it's reprehensible that there have been known problems since 2008 with this at least this one factor being admitted only now. :mad:
During this time how many injuries and deaths occurred possibly due to a sticking throttle potentiometer?
I hope they can find that there's more to it than just the inside potentiometer device problem. I really feel there is something more involved with control computers.
One source on the production stop said that stores would continue to sell cars. Is that correct or did they mean they would sell cars not directed involved in this particular recall with the potentiometer problem.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,