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Comments
Then start pushing the brake pedal down to lightly engage. Then let up. Repeat the push. See how many it takes before the pedal pressure has increased greatly.
Or you can kill the source of vacuum by accelerating at full throttle and the vacuum in the motor drops to 1 or 2 psi unless you've got a restrictive air cleaner. If you do this test at full throttle I suggest having an uphill section so the car doesn't build up too much steam and you're a danger or receive a ticket.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The battery could be used for minutes to provide energy to the braking system, to run any sort of vacuum pump or hydraulic pump necessary, to brake to a stop.
In the old days, the vacuum powered windshield wipers. And as soon as the throttle plate opened to accelerate gently or harder, the wipers slowed or stopped.
So, they came up with a vacuum pump coupled with the fuel pump which supplemented the engine's low vacuum when the throttle plate was opened.
Put an electric vacuum pump in series with the engine vacuum line to the brake booster.
Or use an electric pump for hydraulic brakes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Won't get into many of the reasons and findings as think I have posted many before. 19 deaths & # accidents seem to indicate some action needed..This Car and Driver article suggested driver error, other auto sites have have supported computer bugs, some take great care to be careful. I somehow see this as one more theory to save to my long list of bookmarks. Will be interesting to see..
Reference to number of incidents. I thought that has been addressed/reported all along? But don't forget actual numbers are confusing - all over and no required data base. Some at NHTSA, Dealers, news media, safety sites, etc. Have seen some people don't know where to even lodge complaints, and state they could not get through to Toyota. They were using news blogs to complain.
Sure is not just Toyota - thats a definite. What I find interesting is
fact some of others with higher complaints aren't addressed as well.
Good to hear what you are saying. Yes, I felt this guy was mocking that people were cause. Whoops not good as he wrote & is now documented.
MNF
Prohibition
Definition: a decree that prohibits something. Smile - and is referencing alcohol.
So you have had same experience with some owner/s. I spoke with another neighbor that has Lexus and Camry. He had heard, but hadn't investigated, wasn't real concerned. Sad they have had no problems. And he is attorney.
1.There is some possibility of a stuck throttle, but the corrective fix is ongoing at my local dealer. I believe that a throttle assembly that could stick will give you warning by changes in "pedal feel", etc. if you are paying attention to your vehicle.
2.There is a SLIGHT possibility of UA because the vehicle speed is computer controlled. Someone calculated the incident rate at 1 in 50,000-60,000 vehicles, against the odds of being murdered at 1 in 18,000. I think that makes my
Avalon fairly safe. The possibility of my home computer doing something stupid is way greater than either of these numbers.
3.The best thing learned from all this is that all of us now know how to deal with UA if it happens. I might have thought about turning the key off, but I would probably have pumped the brakes with the intent of making the vehicle stop sooner, and I doubt if I would have thought about putting the vehicle in neutral.
4. The floor mat issue is a joke, and not even worthy of conversation if you have properly hooked factory mats. I have seen vehicles where you could not even see the floor mats for the debris on the floor. Drivers must assume some responsibility for their safety.
I will take my vehicle to my local dealer when the frenzy settles,and probably get the accelerator "shim", and hopefully get the computer reflashed for brake override. I will refuse to let the dealer GRIND AWAY part of my accelerator pedal. If new pedals become available, I might consider that. I intend to keep driving my 2007 Avalon for several more years.
It also appears, appears to shift responsibility off toyota for specifying a plastic that deteriorates with moisture and galls and starts creating more friction.
The pedal assembly needs to be replaced with one made of durable plastic not one that adsorbs water in some way. Toyota has got people looking at the guy behind that tree over there instead of toyota fixing the problem. :sick:
And it's making some people forget there are cases of acceleration that don't involved the accelerator having been push down and not returning properly.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm with you on the throttle design. That is why I think the shim thing will not be a long lasting fix. It may give Toyota breathing room to design and build a replacement Throttle control using better materials. It is just one piece of the cheapened parts bin that Toyota draws from.
And it's making some people forget there are cases of acceleration that don't involved the accelerator having been push down and not returning properly.
The NHTSA has to be aware of that issue. If they let Toyota off with just the shim fix we know they are not doing their job. More research into other areas of the DBW system heed to be done. The dealer changed the Throttle body controller and some sensors on the well publicized case. Are those parts prone to failure causing UA? With the myriad of parts that could fail causing UA, I would think Toyota would be going full blast to equip every DBW vehicle they have built with a Brake Over-ride system. Then a software, firmware or hardware caused UA can be overcome with the brakes as it should be.
Although I don't want a brake override because I want the ability to use the brake and gas together when towing (like a steep boat ramp), it would be interesting to see the outcome of a 100% recall and retrofit of brake override.
Thereafter, the only UA accidents we would see would be caused by pedal misapplication, right?. I'm betting there would still be a bunch, possibly a very large number. But I don't think a retrofit will happen.
John
"The gas pedals in question get stuck only at low speeds close to idle, according to CTS Corp., the Indiana-based maker of the pedals. A federal official who was briefed on the matter confirmed the problem occurs when vehicles are moving at low speeds and isn't believed to make cars accelerate out of control."
~
""The sticking pedals have occurred in fewer than 20 cases and have never been linked to any accidents, said Diane Belsar [of CTS]"
"NHTSA confirmed it hasn't found any accidents that seem to have been caused by sticky gas pedals."
~
"Toyota officials told congressional staffers at a meeting last month that 'sticking accelerator pedals are unlikely to be responsible for the sensational stories of drivers losing control over acceleration as their cars race to 60 miles per hour or higher.'"
~~~~~~~
This is where ignorance, fear and hysteria lead to. The public relations hole gets deeper for Toyota. Too bad they can't say the truth: "The incidence of this problem is exceedingly rare. While the misuse of floor mats may have caused some incidents, it doesn't account for all. We continue to investigate possible causes, but have found nothing so far that would cause unintended acceleration."
But, of course, they can't say that. Our Secretary of Transportation might then classify Toyotas as potential Weapons of Mass Destruction!
IF all that's correct, the next question is, why even bother with the accelerator shims? Why not go to the root cause and fix that?
Toyota is already recalling a staggering 8 million cars (and rising). If the CTS shim isn't the "real" fix, they may have to do the whole recall all over again, and this time for the electronics. This is just crazy on Toyota's part.
The Japanese are very protectionist oriented and arrogantly assume that their stuff is better or the best. As you can see, it is not so. The Prius is now the new "Corvair", unsafe at any speed including stopped. In fact Toyota should rename itself "Corvair".
Number of vehicles recalled: 7.9 million
Year of recall: 1996
The company warned that the ignition switch on the recalled vehicles could overheat and smoke or catch fire.
Ford recalled most of its models built between 1988 and ’93, including the Aerostar, Bronco, Crown Victoria, Escort, F-150 pickup, Mustang, Tempo and Thunderbird.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/toyota_recall
It seems TOYOTA dropped the ball big time in quality control department or may be they become so arrogant with the past success, that they take everything for granted and do not care about the consumer any more, which we saw in this whole recall fiasco!!
Thus, Toyota may have to do the recall all over again for the electronics issue, which is the bigger "elephant in the room".
You're right....no matter which way you slice it or dice it, Toyota is screwed and tatoo'd over these ongoing issues.
At least it was voluntary...
I would need a 25% discount to make me buy a new one ?? What about you
Meanwhile, my wife drives her Camry with about as much worry as she gives to being struck by lightning.
I am still waiting for the fix on a vehicle ordered by me that is sitting on the dealers lot. I have been told by Toyota that they donot have a brake override system for my model and they couldn't tell me if it would be included in a later campaign to install a brake override system. I would be willing to pay the extra cost just to eliminate any doubt about the vehicle.
I think it was one of the Car and Driver articles that speculated that Toyota's higher reported incidence of UA might be because they didn't have a brake override system. Could be. I certainly don't know.
But it makes sense to me that it may be a combination of things. Add a few driver errors to the absence of brake override, and then throw in an incredibly rare electronic malfunction of some kind, and you've got a problem nearly impossible to diagnose and fix completely, as 2 of 3 causes are out of your control.
Add in a media anxious to hype stories and Toyota's screwed! [Previous word use changed at request of board host.]
My concept would be to use a new control module that would monitor the brake fluid pressure sensor and the throttle position sensor(s). If the throttle position did not return to idle immediately after the brake pressure began climbing the new module would open the ground return circuit for ALL of the electronic fuel injectors.
For public "feel good" PR.
Meanwhile the argument between Toyota/etc and NipponDenso, Denso US, continues. IMMHO they can be no question of which company is at fault but if Denso makes an admission then ALL vehicles using their FIRMWARE will be suspect.
Toyota Motor Corp. faces yet another possible federal investigation, this time of the electric power steering in 2009 and 2010 Corollas. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is considering a formal investigation of alleged defects reported in the compact car, agency spokeswoman Karen Aldana said
-end
Toyota can not get a break this week.
I'd guess that, at this point in the debacle, Toyota is desperate for a credible fix, even better one they can blame, and charge, to someone else.
That would require, typically, someone at the "sister" company voluntarily standing up and accepting the blame. Traditional Japanese culture simply does not allow for that outcome.
On top of all this, if the blame is eventually placed on NipponDenso, as well it should be IMMHO, that points out that Toyota has not excersized a sufficient level of QA oversight. Then, as I have said, that also opens the "door" to the question of how many other of NipponDenso's customers have the very selfsame FLAWED software..??
It's been pretty clear to me, beginning in '93, that NipponDenso's horribly FLAWED control firmware for automatic climate systems has now been used throughout the asian automotive manufacturing market and not just a few US marques.
Toyota needs to make the system available to anyone involved in this recall. There is always going to be that doubt however remote that the problem has been fixed.
The brake override system will end the doubt and restore confidence that the vehicle will stop.
It's a good thing they got a big chunk of our tax dollars on C4Cs. They can use that money to buy back their reputation. Though it looks like they are trying to sneak around the base issues. Their DBW systems for acceleration, braking and Steering are all flawed.
But if Toyota/etc should implement such a fix, retroactively, then EVERY manufacture using DBW would have to follow suite.
BIG numbers.
Toyota recalls in the past a few months already passed 9 million and keep growing.
Posted Today 11:56 AM by Arthur St. Antoine
I cannot sit quietly on the sidelines any longer. This whole Toyota-recalls hoo-ha has morphed into nothing but yet another “crisis” that a ravenous media and 21st Century Americans -- a people who live better and more safely than any humans in history -- have transformed into their panic du jour. This morning I watched a video “report” on CNN.com showing a Toyota owner who drove her Tundra off a rain-slicked road and down a cliff -- and claims she could do nothing to stop the car. The victim appeared on camera with the requisite tears and even the cliché neck brace to bolster her plight. Naturally, the possibility that said driver might in fact be woefully lacking in skills or -- yes, I’ll say it -- even talking on the phone or texting before the crash never arose during the interview. These days, it's always someone else's fault.
I was in this business when the same joke of a “problem” hit Audi in the 1980s. Thanks to a few witless drivers and a barrage of breathless, clueless news reports (including, most prominently, a fear-stoking segment on "60 Minutes"), the entire country began treating the Audi 5000 sedan as if it were a four-wheeled Beelzebub. Only years later, after an exhaustive Federal investigation costing millions in taxpayer dollars, did the truth emerge: for whatever reason, Audi owners were stepping on the gas instead of the brakes
Did "60 Minutes" do a follow-up piece on that? Of course not.
Lest you assume at this stage that I’m a Toyota apologist, let me state my position clearly:
1) Poorly fixed floor mats very possibly did contribute to sudden acceleration or a “stuck throttle” in some Toyotas. Then again, there likely isn’t a brand of car made whose throttle hasn’t been fouled by an errant floor mat on occasion. Car “defects” are part and parcel of creating a machine of such breathtaking complexity. All automakers suffer from them, and 99% of the issues are minor and dealt with swiftly.
2) There very well may be some mechanical issue in the throttle linkages of some Toyotas that causes the gas pedal to bind in some way, even if only slightly.
3) There also may indeed be a software glitch in the brakes of the Prius. My wife drives a 2010 edition, and well before these stories hit the news she’d told me that the brakes “act weird at times -- they can be really jerky” (and, yes, she knows the difference in feel between standard and hybrid-regen brakes). But, of course, they’d always stopped the car.
4) Toyota has completely bungled the handling of this entire affair. True, the company is in a lose-lose situation. Blame Toyota drivers for panicking and slamming on the wrong pedal, and your customer base will tear you down in fury. Conversely, admit to a defect in your cars and you scare potential buyers away -- perhaps for good. Still, Toyota should have owned up and addressed these issues openly and immediately. Instead, as Angus MacKenzie notes in his previous blog, the company has floundered in "feet of clay."
5) I do not believe that Toyota vehicles are poorly designed, dangerous, possessed by Linda Blair, etc. It’s possible that some software or hardware anomaly is causing Toyota gas pedals to behave strangely, resulting in drivers who panic, even slam on the wrong pedal, and crash.
6) I’m concerned that we do not know the full story behind the tragic incident in which a “runaway” 2009 Lexus ES 350 killed everyone aboard -- including an allegedly skilled driver -- last August. The crash simply makes no sense. This is a vehicle that was “out of control” on a SoCal freeway for several minutes -- enough time, in fact, for a passenger to call 911 and ask for help. Are you telling me that said Lexus suffered an absolutely stuck, wide-open throttle, a total failure of the braking system, and also could not be shut down, slowed, or stopped on a freeway with a trained driver at the helm (even crashing obliquely into the guardrail would’ve been preferable to rocketing head-first into an embankment)? Sorry. Doesn’t pass the Baloney Test.
Toyota is now in serious trouble -- and in many ways, deservedly so (just how long ago did Toyota execs know of potential throttle issues, anyway?). But the notion that Toyotas are rising up and rocketing uncontrollably across highways, into walls, or off cliffs is nothing but media-fueled twaddle. Step on the correct pedal -- the brakes -- and your vehicle will stop. But if a vehicle hiccups, for whatever reason, and gets wadded up as a result, the fundamental defect is a clueless driver.
Those, apparently, a like-minded media has access to in droves.
Read more: http://blogs.motortrend.com/66...svqcc
I donot think it will be a long wait to see it the problem has been resolved. The issue is just to big to hide and any documented failure of a fixed vehicle involved in significant issue will make the news.
Toyota announced will have brake override systems developed/engineered into almost all 2011 models. Whether Toyota will be able to develop/engineer brake override systems for earlier models - big question. All systems of earlier models have already been developed and are present in vehicles. I am not an engineer, but know possibly could be done, but at what cost to owners? What other systems may have to be replaced or undergo modification? Then saw one report by newspaper issues about lack of memory - still unconfirmed. Etc.
Any qualified auto enigneer bloggers present? Comments.
What happened, did Toyota just pull a bunch of ads from MotorTrend to pay for the recall?
I would need a 25% discount to make me buy a new one ?? What about you
Nope - not me. First, I've owned a sudden acceleration car before, and when it took off on me, I threw the car into neutral and stopped the car without incident. Blew the engine, but that was the manufacturer's problem as I had it towed into the dealer, and they gave me a new car. (Ford). Secondly, the incidents for this event are small enough that I'll take the odds. Just took delivery of a Lexus LS460, which I know is not affected, but even if it were, I trust Toyota to fix it.
Of course, this is just me. Your mileage may vary.....
Do they still off that goofy park assist gizmo?
I donot think it will be a long wait to see it the problem has been resolved. The issue is just to big to hide and any documented failure of a fixed vehicle involved in significant issue will make the news.
Agreed.
The question becomes how long it will take Toyota to actually admit to the electronics failures. If past behavior from them is any indication, they'll look the other way, issue some statements, buy some time, hope no one gets injured, or worse.
But, now you're talking about every model they make, and have made, with computer controlled acceleration, steering and braking systems. That's pretty much every vehicle in their recent portfolio....Toyota, Lexus, Scion. As big as the current recall campaign is, such a recall would actually put Toyota in serious financial peril.
I'm sure someone within Toyota is asking themselves...."how much is one life saved worth? 2 lives? 20 lives? 200 lives?".
Following are milestones leading to the largest recall in Toyota's history, a series of events that has hit the automaker's reputation and results:
* 2000: Toyota launches program known as "Construction of Cost Competitiveness for the 21st Century" with the aim of cutting costs of 180 key car parts by 30 percent, saving nearly $10 billion by 2005.
* 2004: In cooperation with National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA,) Toyota narrows the scope of investigations into unintended acceleration by eliminating incidents lasting more than a few seconds or those where the driver applied the brake.
* 2006: Following a surge in global recalls, Toyota head Katsuaki Watanabe apologizes for "quality glitches." Toyota delays some new models by up to half a year.
* March 2007: NHTSA opens investigation into pedal entrapment in some Toyota vehicles. That leads to recall of 55,000 floormats in September.
* Late 2007: Insurer State Farm tells NHTSA of a "significant increase" in Toyota-related accidents involving its policyholders.
* September 2007: Former Toyota attorney Dimitrios Biller signs a severance agreement with the automaker. He claims he found "numerous" cases where the company concealed evidence from the courts and the U.S. government. Toyota "strongly disputes" this claim.
* October 2007: Consumer Reports influential vehicle quality survey drops three Toyota vehicles, including a version of the Camry, from its recommended list. The verdict: "After years of sterling reliability, Toyota is showing cracks in its armor."
* December 2007: Toyota's U.S. sales for 2007 hit 2.6 million units. It has displaced Ford Motor Co (F.N) as No. 2 in the U.S. market and is on the cusp of unseating General Motors Co [GM.UL] as No. 1 on a global basis.
* June 2009: Akio Toyoda, 53, grandson of Toyota's founder, is named president, replacing Watanabe, 67. Toyota executive Yoshi Inaba is called out of retirement and dispatched to the United States to head operations in the automaker's largest market.
* Nov. 26, 2009: Toyota recalls 4.2 million vehicles in the United States to address the risk that floormats can come loose and trap the accelerator pedal.
* Dec. 15, 2009: NHTSA officials meet Toyota executives in Japan seeking prompt action on safety issues. Toyota commits to improving its responsiveness.
* Jan. 16, 2010: Toyota informs NHTSA that accelerator pedals made by supplier CTS Corp (CTS.N) may have a dangerous "sticking" defect.
* Jan. 19: At meeting in Washington including Inaba and U.S. sales chief Jim Lentz, NHTSA asks Toyota to take prompt action. Hours later Toyota tells NHTSA it will issue a recall.
* Jan. 21: Toyota announces recall for about 2.3 million Toyota models to fix sticky pedals.
* Jan. 25: NHTSA informs Toyota it is legally obliged to stop selling vehicles even if it does not have a remedy.
* Jan. 26: Toyota halts U.S. sales of eight models involved in the recall, including its best-selling Camry and Corolla sedans, and says it will halt production for first week of February.
* Jan. 27: At urging of NHTSA, Toyota recalls an additional 1.1 million vehicles due to the risk that a loose floormat could trap the accelerator in an open position. That adds to the recall of 4.2 million vehicles announced in November 2009.
* Jan. 28: Toyota meets with NHTSA to review its pedal fix. NHTSA says it has no objections to the fix.
* Jan. 29: NHTSA opens investigation into CTS pedals. NHTSA asks CTS if it sold pedal to other carmakers and when it discovered reports of problems.
* Feb. 2: Toyota reports a 16 percent drop in January U.S. sales. Monthly U.S. sales drop below 100,000 for the first time in more than a decade and Toyota's U.S. market share falls to its lowest level since January 2006.
* Feb. 2: NHTSA renews investigation into Toyota's electronic throttle control system. U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood says, "While Toyota is taking responsible action now, it unfortunately took an enormous effort to get to this point." Toyota says it will fully cooperate with NHTSA probe.
* Feb. 3: LaHood warns recalled Toyota owners to stop driving, then withdraws his remarks, saying it was a misstatement. Toyota says it is examining braking complaints about its 2010 model Prius hybrid.
* Feb. 4: NHTSA opens investigation into at least 124 consumer complaints about brakes on Toyota Prius hybrids.
* Feb. 5: After keeping a low profile for nearly two weeks, President Akio Toyoda appears at a news conference to apologize for safety problems. He announces plans to bring in a task force, including outside analysts to review quality. Toyota considers a recall for Prius braking issue.
* Feb. 9: Toyota announces recall of nearly 500,000 new Prius and Lexus-brand hybrid cars globally for braking problems. Akio Toyoda says he may visit the United States in the third week of February.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-consumer-safety-advisory-102572- .aspx