Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

sharonkl · February 2010

Passing along this article. Interesting discussion auto electronics in todays autos. Mechanics generally can not find the real problem, as difficult.

http://news.discovery.com/tech/toyota-recall-software-code.html

lzc · February 2010

Interesting article. And interesting that Toyota recalled the Prius for a software code problem, suggesting some recognition of the issue.

stever · February 2010

And good luck getting your local mechanic to fix it when they won't share the code.

Right To Repair - A Hot Issue or Big Problem?

gagrice · February 2010

I had no idea they had evolved into that kind of complexity. No wonder I like cars less and less. This statement blew me away:

As Much Software Code as an Airbus

Alfred Katzenbach, the director of information technology management at Daimler, has reportedly said that the radio and navigation system in the current S-class Mercedes-Benz requires over 20 million lines of code alone and that the car contains nearly as many ECUs as the new Airbus A380 (excluding the planes in-flight entertainment system). Software in cars is only going to grow in both amount and complexity. Late last year, the business research firm Frost and Sullivan estimated that cars will require 200 million to 300 million lines of software code in the near future.

A good reason to steer clear of a Hybrid:

For hybrids, where the amount of software needed for engine control alone is nearly twice as great as that for a standard car, the cost of electronics as a percent of vehicle costs is closer to 45 percent. Within 10 years, some experts predict that the percentages relating to the cost of electronics as a percent of vehicle cost are expected to rise to 50 percent for conventional vehicles and 80 percent for hybrids.

mnf · February 2010

This guy should have read the posts then he could blame it on the car or maybe he is just to honest. Curious what your thoughts are this ? maybe consipory theory or cover up

Car dangles from parking garage; driver OK
2/8/2010, 6:55 p.m. PST
The Associated Press
(AP)  MILWAUKIE, Ore. - Clackamas County officials say an 83-year-old man accidentally crashed his car through a concrete wall of a parking garage, leaving the car dangling on the edge of the second floor, then walked back to his room at a Milwaukie retirement community.

Clackamas Fire District No. 1 firefighters were called to the Willamette View Manor's parking garage shortly after noon Monday. They found the Lexus hanging half out of the parking garage and the driver uninjured in his room.

The driver was identified as Kenneth Schiedel. He tells The Oregonian, "I feel like the village idiot." Fire District spokesman Steve McAdoo says the man told rescuers he accidentally pressed the gas pedal instead of the brake

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/national-105/126568759626543- 0.xml&storylist=orlocal

millwood0 · February 2010

"I had no idea they had evolved into that kind of complexity."

I said this earlier but would love to repeat it for you: if you want your cars to be as reliable as avionics on a 737, you will end up paying 737 prices for your cars.

many people didn't understand what I meant but now you have 3rd party confirmation,

millwood0 · February 2010

"maybe he is just to honest."

he is just too atypical of our folks.

graphicguy · February 2010

You may well want Toyota to right its ship. But if Toyota has the burden of proving that every accident is not the result of a gremlin in its electronics, its ship is going down.

Unfortunately for Toyota, I'm afraid that's exactly where they find themselves. As in the case of the alleged floormat recall, the "nickel shim" doesn't instill much confidence that there's a permanent fix for UA with Toyota vehicles. Add to all of that, the recent Lexus/Prius braking issues, and if true, the Corolla steering issues, I'm afraid that Toyota has used up all of their "user error/supplier failure" chips.

Because of all of that, and the opportunity for totally open and honest disclosure having slipped through their fingers, Toyota's at the point where they are going to have to prove that they aren't at fault. That burden is a lot harder than defending their position. They seem to have already thrown in the towel doing that with the massive recalls.

As a car enthusiast, like many others, I'm now at the point where I'm holding my breath everyday wondering when another "issue" is going to surface with Toyota. It's been a daily occurrence over the last couple of weeks.

Someone else mentioned it, the last nail will be struck when one of the "fixed" cars accelerates out of control, or doesn't stop when commanded to. I think that's inevitable, though. And, it will only take ONE of those incidents, too.

The day that they can say "we're concerned and plan on doing better" has come and gone. We'll see what Toyota has to say, and the specific, significant and verifiable steps they plan to take when they are dragged before the NHTSA and Congress.

A few of the people I know who work for Toyota have mentioned to me that this has been a long time coming. While it's going to hurt Toyota, and hurt badly, for probably a long period of time. In the long run, I do think it will be good for Toyota. This will make them a much more responsible and concerned company, when they come out of the other end of this. They aren't going to be #1 anymore....maybe not even #2, or even #3. But, they will be better.

In the interim, their employees are nervous, seeking grounded leadership, which hasn't surfaced yet. Customers are nervous, if not wondering if their car is affected, at least worried about plummeting resale values. Their dealerships are nervous, mainly because they've probably lost a whole lot of potential customers who used to rely on Toyota's quality and safety reputation to get people in the door.

millwood0 · February 2010

"Unfortunately for Toyota, I'm afraid that's exactly where they find themselves."

that's precisely the point.

if every manufacturer were held to the same standard (of proving that any and all accidents are not the fault of their products), they wouldn't be able to produce and sell any vehicles and you wouldn't be able to buy and drive any vehicles.

or any other products for that matter.

think of it as you being stop'd by a policy officer and he asks that you prove that you are not a criminal, or he would take you to the policy station.

how could a society function on that kind of notion?

and that's precisely what the society is asking of toyota: to prove that any accident involving a toyota vehicle is NOT the fault of their vehicles.

mtrialsm · February 2010

200 to 300 million lines of code is far fetched much less 20 million line,,,,,,more like in the 100 thousands reange,,,,,,,,,,but who's counting.
I agree, with all the sensors and crap on cars now, no wonder we are having problems. I work in software/hardware testing and the costs of 100% testing is very expensive. Send it out and let the user find the bugs,,,,,,,,,then cover it up with a TSB.

mikefm58 · February 2010

I work in software/hardware testing and the costs of 100% testing is very expensive. Send it out and let the user find the bugs,,,,,,,,,then cover it up with a TSB.

So true, for those of us in the computer field that speaks volumes. 100% perfect quality in IT is VERY expensive.

hoyafan · February 2010

And also the most damning:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704820904575055733096312238.html?m- - od=WSJ_business_LeadStoryCollection

There's a chart showing the increase in complaints with NHTSA of Toyota cars: they increased 5-fold between 2000 and 2010.

oparr · February 2010

As in the case of the alleged floormat recall, the "nickel shim" doesn't instill much confidence that there's a permanent fix for UA with Toyota vehicles.

The pedal fix does not address UA. Even Toyota has stated that pedal issues can be detected before they become something of a sticky problem (mainly irregular RPM at idle). However, both Toyota and the NHTSA are hoping that in all the confusion, this pedal recall will act as a placebo of sorts.

In all the confusion, a somewhat bigger question regarding UA seems to have gone unanswered IMO...Why is it that Toyota's UA woes seem essentially endemic to the USA? Aren't the same ECU, electronics and mechanics (except the US made pedal) shared by Toyotas worldwide?

ricksterrav4 · February 2010

I have a 2008 RAV4 and I too am having the accelerator issue. I do a lot of mountain driving with switchback turns, so I'm accelerating & braking often. I started noticing it about 8 months ago. The times I'm aware of it is when I'm going down hill and applying my brakes; there is a slight hesitation in the acceleration. It feels as though the accelerator is still being applied as I am braking.

I didn't make much about it, until the recalls made me think it might be the same issue in the 2008 models. I'm planning to bring it into the dealer to make them aware of it.

graphicguy · February 2010

oparr...the recalls extend to not only North America, but to Europe and China, too. Other recalls are also being done in Japan that include hybrids. So, for all intents and purposes, the recall is world wide.

anythngbutgm · February 2010

link title

lzc · February 2010

Below is a link to an article critical article of Toyota's relationship with NHTSA and response to growing complaints of UA. It's available to non-subscribers.

In defense of Toyota, NHSTA also couldn't find a pattern of problems that justified a specific action until they focused on the floor mats. More significantly, in a survey of 1,986 Lexus ES350 owners, 59 of which reported incidents of UA, 35 of them attributed it to a floor mat problem.

The article's opening paragraph is a little sensationalist, considering how unimportant the gas pedal problem is in the UA issue, still, it's worthwhile reading.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704820904575055733096312238.html#m- od=todays_us_page_one

imidazol97 · February 2010

>It's been a daily occurrence over the last couple of weeks.

In case you didn't see the newwest one:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/10/business/main6192754.shtml

Camry steering problem announced on Tuesday.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/10/business/main6192754.shtml

imidazol97 · February 2010

>In defense of Toyota, NHSTA also couldn't find a pattern of problems that justified a specific action

Have to disagree there. Toyota found enough evidence they wanted the NHSTA to only look at unintended acceleration reports that were 1 second or shorter. Isn't that _odd_? I believe it was because if the whole range to times of endurance of the incident were collected and reported, IT WAS CLEAR there was a problem.

Toyota's hands are dirty and Sarcutti, past employee of NHSTA, is in the middle.

kernick · February 2010

I'll also reinforce your view. I work as an engineer in a global company designing the processes in the factory. Software, electronics, and automation in general are great for efficiency, and doing jobs that people can't or don't want to do.

However it is not only susceptible to internal problems like bad code or bad hardware on the boards; but is susceptible to environmental issues - people bumping something out of alignment, a piece of fiber floating and landing on a sensor, a fluctuation in electrical supply causing the CPU to crash ...

And because these systems are so complex, it make finding the problem that much more difficult and requires highly trained people, with knowledge of that system, to troubleshoot it.

I also think it is a bad idea to make all these auto systems electronic, unless there is a manual override. I'd like to see the NHTSA take up this issue. They should make regulations that state that engine control, braking and steering system designs can be electronically controlled, ONLY IF the design provides for the driver to continue to operate those systems by having manual control, should the electronic system fail. I'm pretty sure planes are designed this way?

millwood0 · February 2010

"Why is it that Toyota's UA woes seem essentially endemic to the USA?"

accidents are a combination of the vehicles, people and the environment the vehicle / people combination operates.

since the same vehicles are involved where different accident outcome is generated, you have to conclude that the difference is in the people / environment combo.

of course, that assumes that you are rationale and willing to face the fact. a thing that not many people have the guts to do.

millwood0 · February 2010

"They should make regulations that state that engine control, braking and steering system designs can be electronically controlled, ONLY IF the design provides for the driver to continue to operate those systems by having manual control, should the electronic system fail. "

I would rather that I make that decision, not some bureacrats in Washington. If the guy had trouble articulating his answer to a simple question ("what should the Toyota customers do?"), how good is he going to make such an important decision for me?

"I'm pretty sure planes are designed this way?"

not always. earlier fly-by-wire systems did have mechanical back-ups, as those systems were "unproven" at that point. Today's fly-by-wire systems are far more reliable than their mechanical back-up will ever be, to the point that no mechanical back-up is used on modern commercial airplanes.

They do have redundancy systems, usually electric or electronic ones, but that was true for earlier mechanical systems as well (in that they were backed up by another mechanical or electric systems).

millwood0 · February 2010

"More significantly, in a survey of 1,986 Lexus ES350 owners, 59 of which reported incidents of UA, 35 of them attributed it to a floor mat problem. "

to me, that (59 out of 600 responded and 1986 surveyed owners) is a very high (extremely and unacceptably high) rate of defect.

If that reports is true, both NHTSA and Toyota should be blamed. while the high rate isn't necessarily a reflection of design / manufacturing flaws but actions should have been taken to figure out the root causes behind it.

On another topic, I never understood how sticky pedals could possibly explain "sudden acceleration" and all the media hoopla (and retarded journalism) made it that much more difficult to figure out precisely what happened in those accidents.

On the other hand, the media is in the business of generating viewership, not reporting the truth / facts anymore.

imidazol97 · February 2010

>earlier fly-by-wire systems did have mechanical back-ups, as those systems were "unproven" at that point. Today's fly-by-wire systems are far more reliable than their mechanical back-up will ever be, to the point that no mechanical back-up is used on modern commercial airplanes.

I believe the DC-10 that crashed landed and most of the passengers survived in Iowa had triple hydraulic systems to the tail rudder but all three were damaged when the tail-mounted engine exploded. No mechanic system.

millwood0 · February 2010

it is my view that we should have a market that allows the production and marketing of both high quality (high priced) and low quality (low priced) vehicles.

not everyone has the financial resources to buy super-engineered vehicles. if you have the means, you can buy well engineered and high-priced vehicles. otherwise, you can buy lesser engineered and low-priced vehicles.

a one-quality-fits-all model (aka forcing everyone to buy BMWs of the world) is a terrible thing. and why our heathcare system is all messed up.

graphicguy · February 2010

imid...I agree that Toyota's hands are dirty (very dirty) and that past employees were complacent in their dealings with Toyota execs.

However, there's a very big difference between GM and Chrysler coming to Congress, asking for billions of dollars, and Toyota going before Congress acting as like a precocious and obstinate "child" who's not being honest and forthright about their wrongdoings.

Toyota will be asking for leniency for their transgressions, not money.

I think it depends on Toyota's willingness to admit wrongdoing, and their willingness to make amends...plus, being honest in their disclosures.

If they continue as they have in the past, Toyota can expect Congress to put the hammer down. That could range anywhere from forcing them to install new ECUs, with failsafe acceleration/braking features, for all models, over several model years, to a hefty fine, or both.

Or, if Toyota is contrite, and willing to work with the NHTSA in an honest manner, they may get a slap on the wrist, maybe some fines.

millwood0 · February 2010

"I believe the DC-10 that crashed landed and most of the passengers survived in Iowa had triple hydraulic systems to the tail rudder but all three were damaged when the tail-mounted engine exploded. No mechanic system."

I am not sure how to understand you. Are you suggesting that those triple hydraulic systems aren't mechanical?

or you meant something else?

it also points out the limitations of "redundancy": you cannot back-up for every possible scenario. End of the day, the control surfaces, to use your example, are what matters and back-up for their functionality would be extremely expensive and sometimes not technologically or economically feasible.

lzc · February 2010

>>Toyota found enough evidence they wanted the NHSTA to only look at unintended acceleration reports that were 1 second or shorter.

Not according to today's WSJ article, cited above, which says that it was NHTSA's decision. They felt long incidents of UA were more likely caused by driver error, while shorter ones would more likely have another cause.

If you have evidence that Toyota urged NHTSA that way, I'm interested.

With benefit of hindsight, it's easy to see why floor mats became the focus of attention. The Saylor crash 911 call reported a struck accelerator, and the previous user of the loaner car reported the gas pedal got stuck on the mat.

Couple this with the survey results NHTSA got and we headed down the floor mat path.

beachfish2 · February 2010

limitations of redundancy. There's only so much that can be done unless we all get ejector seats with parachutes in our cars.

John

dturr · February 2010

(CNN) -- In his most complete explanation of the problems that beleaguer Toyota, the company president said "we failed to connect the dots" with accelerator problems in the United States and Europe.

dah do you think you may be the wrong job.

My seven year old passed that stage months ago.

hoyafan · February 2010

Haven't seen this posted here yet - some good insights into the future:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/04/flint-toyota-autos-business-tradein.html

popsavalon · February 2010

If you couldn't nit-pick the verbage and bash everyone in sight, would there be any joy in your world (of non Toyota owners)?

It is redundant to point out that you cannot have "redundancy" for all scenarios.

imidazol97 · February 2010

>it also points out the limitations of "redundancy":

Redundancy. Despite three hydraulic systems, all failed through deficiencies in design (sound familiar toyota?). They needed a cable,completely mechanical backup.

imidazol97 · February 2010

http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/04/flint-toyota-autos-business-tradein.html

Good link. Thanks for posting it.

oparr · February 2010

oparr...the recalls extend to not only North America, but to Europe and China, too. Other recalls are also being done in Japan that include hybrids. So, for all intents and purposes, the recall is world wide.

The recall may be worldwide but have you seen any complaints of UA coming out of Japan or anywhere else besides the US? I haven't, in fact, Toyota workers in Japan have suggested that it is a US problem due to sloppy US Toyota workers....Improper ESD handling precautions, installations, not following instructions etc..

Whatever, it is a Toyota problem since they are all the same company. However, that does not answer the question as to why UA appears endemic to the US.

774 · February 2010

I have a 2010 Sequoia

stever · February 2010

There's a chart showing the increase in complaints with NHTSA of Toyota cars: they increased 5-fold between 2000 and 2010.

So, you'd rather have a Land Rover? Isuzu? Jag?

Edmunds looked through the NHTSA database. "A key finding: despite being the subject of intense scrutiny of the company, Toyota ranks 17th among automakers in the overall number of complaints per vehicle sold."

Toyota Recalls Put into Context by Edmunds.com (BusinessWire)

lzc · February 2010

>>However, that does not answer the question as to why UA appears endemic to the US.

Is that true? I wouldn't be surprise if it was. During the hysteria over the Audi, the incidence of UA was (maybe not) surprisingly a U.S. problem.

smarty666 · February 2010

I'm not surprised if that is the case; it's been my experience with Japanese cars over the years that the ones I have that were completely assembled in Japan had better fit and finish, quality control, etc compared to my Japanese cars assembled in US plants!

probably explains why Camry's beginning with a J (hence made in Japan) are not apart of the Toyota recalls - maybe thats because the Japanese assembly plants know how to put the stuff together! - these Japanese companies had less problems when most of their vehicles were assembled in Japan and shipped over back in the 90s; once they shift some of the production to US or Canadian plant, even the luxury divisions, there were more problems with quality control stuff, fit and finish, etc!

millwood0 · February 2010

"They needed a cable,completely mechanical backup."

regardless of what they have, they have to effect the fly control surfaces. unfortunately, all of those backup systems have to go to the vertical stabilizer where the blown engine is located.

so no amount of redundancy could have saved you, in this case.

again, there are limitations of any risk mitigants. and if you don't want to take risks, you cannot possibly live.

wwest · February 2010

SOP...probably...

As you slow below ~10MPH your transaxle will actually upshift and if you happen to be on the brakes at the time the seat of the pants feeling will be as if you experienced a slight "surge" forward. Same thing when slowing below about 35MPH.

Not actually a "surge" but a slight lessening of the engine compression braking force as a result of the upshift. Most Toyota/etc FWD and F/awd vehicles will have this shift pattern in order to help alleviate the instances of loss of directional control due to "inadvertent" braking on the front, stearing, wheels.

millwood0 · February 2010

"My seven year old passed that stage months ago."

just because your son is better than him in one thing doesn't mean your son has the complete package to do his job better.

if anything, Toyota shareholders have voted overwhelmingly the other way.

so drop that comparison, please.

deltheking · February 2010

..Why is it that Toyota's UA woes seem essentially endemic to the USA?

Because you cannot make a car for driver stupidity or ignorance...Sorry but true!! :P

wwest · February 2010

I'm pretty sure the DC-10 uses a mechanical coupling from the cockpit to ALL control surfaces. It was the hydraulic POWER BOOST of those controls that failed due to all of the hydraulic fluid leaking out the SINGLE fluid supply line.

Unlike cars, airplanes cannot simply pull over to the side of the road and switch the ignition off in the event of a system failure.

Different redundancy requirements, RADICALLY SO...!!!

millwood0 · February 2010

"So, you'd rather have a Land Rover? Isuzu? Jag? "

or VW, BMW, Ford, GM and many other brands?

in fact, unless you drive a MB, or Porsche or Smart, your chance of running into a recall is considerably higher than with a Toyota.

But then, when do facts and rationale matter in this discussion?

millwood0 · February 2010

" my Japanese cars assembled in US plants! "

so we have stupid drivers and now we have stupid workers in the country as well?

wwest · February 2010

Not stupid, just spoiled and lazy.

smarty666 · February 2010

you hit the nail right on the head

!

millwood0 · February 2010

"Because you cannot make a car for driver stupidity or ignorance."

I thank god for that every day. Otherwise, evolution wouldn't have worked and we would still be a bunch of monkeys picking flees off of each other's back.

sharonkl · February 2010

Yes, I thought was good article to review and add to my collection. Then I try to evaluate
(1)Toyota Sudden Acceleration timeline - clues or patterns - etc.
(2)DHTSA - our government watch dog agency - attempt to analyze actions & investigations - patterns - biased or non-biased? - expertise & budget for thorough investigations - etc??.
(3)Lawmakers - friends of Toyota on committees investigating - bias or nonbiased??
(4)Toyota lobbyists - strong presence Washington - million+ spent -
corporate influence? - protection needed but balance present?

For your review and evaluation:

Below link that appears to be good format of Toyota UA timeline - have checked validity some events and found to be correct - did not verify all though. My best guess, appears correct. Outside watchdog group quoted frequently. Interesting to note the repeats that exist as timeline moves along.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/toyota-sudden-unintended-acceleration/toyota-sudde- n-acceleration-timeline/

This link is from MSNC report identifying lawmakers relationships to Toyota. One lawmaker actually owns corporation that sells products to Toyota. Granted this news agency leans to left - but left in office, so can be detrimental to present administration. Have others saved too.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35293626/ns/business-autos/

Also have seen news reports - State Farm Auto Insurance Agency claiming they saw increase accidents reported for Toyota and reported to DHTSA.

Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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