Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

1212224262769

Comments

  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I pulled both reports up. Good for you. Thanks for asking. You are quick I hadn't gotten to comparing both reports yet. Was my next thing to do. Will not analyze much - just sending

    Consumers Report study was for only all 2008 models conducted Jan, 2009 - Aug, 2009, and stated they wanted to omit inclusion of complaints after San Diego accident due to publicity and effect. Consumer Report would be the most recent year statistics available.

    Here are both links again:

    http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/12/sudden-unintended-acceleration-sua- -analysis-2008-toyota-lexus-ford-gm.html

    http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&news- Id=20100210005994&newsLang=en
    ___________

    Consumer Report Data Graph (cannot copy as graph)
    Sudden, Unintended Acceleration DataFor 2008 models only
    8 months records Jan, 2009-Aug 28, 2009 -

    "To put the figures into proper perspective, we compared the number of complaints against overall market share"
    Each line - Automaker - 2008 model-yr complaints - Share Complaint 2007-2008 average market share
    Toyota 52 - 41% - 16%
    Ford 36 - 28% - 16%
    Chrysler 11 - 9% - 12%
    General Motors 7 - 5% -23%
    Honda 5 - 4% - 10%
    Nissan 4 - 3% - 6%
    *Reflects complaints submitted prior to August 28th, 2009.

    (GRAPH -I note 83% of auto manufacturers market accounted for in above graph -Per centages of problem account for 90% - 17% of remaining auto market account for remaining 10% of complaints - Note - each listed manufacturer's per centage (Share Complaint %)
    of problems does not come from total number of listed complaints in this graph - so assume Share Complaint % comes from total number of all manufacturers & includes remaining 17% of the auto manufacturers - info not provided)

    FOLLOWUP - copied from CR article regarding statistical data
    "In analyzing all 5,916 reports on 2008 models, Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center and Statistics Department identified 166 cases in which the complaint described sustained unintended acceleration that the driver found difficult or impossible to control. Such incidents prompted a related safety advisory focused on floor-mat entrapment issued by both NHTSA and Toyota in September, 2009.

    We used 2008 models to provide a snapshot across all automakers and identify possible issues. The scope was further narrowed to complaints submitted before Aug. 28, 2009, when a California family was killed in a Lexus sedan experiencing uncontrollable acceleration, to eliminate the impact media coverage had in drawing more submissions.

    The sudden-acceleration incidents were distributed over 22 brands, but they were not spread evenly. Forty-seven complaints were about Toyota models and five were for Lexus vehicles. Between them, Toyota and Lexus accounted for more than a third of all the unintended-acceleration incidents we found among 2008-model vehicles. Seen another way, Toyota racked up more unintended-acceleration complaints than Chrysler, GM, Honda, and Nissan combined."

    ____________

    Edmunds Data Graph - 2001 through 2010 (through February 3).

    EACH LINE - MANUFACTURER - RANK (IN ORDER OF MOST COMPLAINTS PER MARKET SHARE) - PERCENT OF COMPLAINTS IN NHTSA DATABASE - PERCENT OF SALES IN US MARKET

    LAND ROVER 1 - 0.6% - 0.1%
    AMERICAN SUZUKI MOTOR CORP. 2 - 0.9% - 0.4%
    ISUZU MFG SERVICES OF AMERICA 3 - 0.3% - 0.2%
    VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA, INC 4 - 4.1% - 2.4%
    JAGUAR CARS LTD - 5 - 0.4% - 0.2%
    VOLVO CARS OF N.A. LLC. 6 - 1.1% - 0.7%
    CHRYSLER LLC 7 - 16.3% -13.0%
    MAZDA NORTH AMERICAN OPERATIONS 8 -1.7% - 1.5%
    MITSUBISHI MOTORS NORTH AMERICA, INC. 9 - 1.3% - 1.2%
    FORD MOTOR COMPANY 10 - 18.3% - 17.6%
    GENERAL MOTORS CORP. 11 - 25.3% - 24.5%
    NISSAN NORTH AMERICA, INC. 12 - 5.8% - 5.9%
    HYUNDAI MOTOR COMPANY 13 - 4.2% - 4.4
    BMW OF NORTH AMERICA, LLC 14 -1.7% -1.9%
    SUBARU OF AMERICA, INC. 15 - 1.1% - 1.3%
    AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO. 16 - 6.8% - 9.4%
    TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION 17 - 9.1% -13.5%
    MERCEDES-BENZ USA, LLC. 18 -1.0% - 1.5%
    PORSCHE CARS NORTH AMERICA, INC. 19 - 0.1% - 0.2%
    SMART USA DISTRIBUTOR LLC 20 - 0.0% - 0.0%

    FOLLOWUP - COPIED FROM EDMUNDS REPORT
    "according to the database, which consists of complaints filed by individuals and is not checked for accuracy by NHTSA, Toyota was the subject of 9.1 percent of the complaints from 2001 through 2010 (through February 3). During this period, the company sold 13.5 percent of all new cars in the United States.

    A key finding: despite being the subject of intense scrutiny of the company, Toyota ranks 17th among automakers in the overall number of complaints per vehicle sold."

    NOTE:
    Regarding Edmunds - work well done - still would have loved to see a breakdown for each year, since some manufacturers may have decreased complaints over past few years. This information would have been so very helpful to actually see and compare if that manufacturer is stilll having problems. Ex - one auto manufacturer may have been quite high 2001, etc. but have excellent stats recently.
    Multiple year total would not indicate if good progress achieved and statistical data would not reflect progress.

    Problem I may have noticed but not sure. Does Ford own Land Rover and Volvo??? These manufacturers are high in Edmunds graph I see. Must check further who owns who?????

    Note - CR data narrowed down number complaints included. Appears Edmunds has used all UA incident complaints. Problems do exist attempting to compare two,

    Don't forget there are more complaints at dealers that are not included on DHTSA data base many times. Dealers are not required to submit to DHTSA. DHTSA complaints filed by owners voluntarily. - into data base. Accuracy???.

    I will let everyone attempt to analyze further themselves.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Would it be possible to get some of your feelings about this report?? They are quoted frequently in news reports, and just were on CNN yesterday or little earlier. Can google their website for more info on who they are. It appears to me they are pushing resolution of the UA problems. Haven't figured out exactly the in's and outs of this group.

    http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/ToyotaSUA020510FINAL.pdf
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Sean Kane is the Nemesis of the "Toyota can do no wrong" crowd. So the report will be discounted as garbage by those folks. It would seem he has the ear of Congress. And that will be tougher for Toyota to over come.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I do take exception to your stattement-

    I have have a few intermittant minor incidents of sudden increased acceleration over past six-eight months, long before I even became aware of all the problems in December. I won't get into much, But mine were not human error, no floor mat, sticky accelerator, etc. I was told by dealer vehicle fine. Incidents may be unrelated to current problems though. But you don't push on brake when parking, and have engine increase acceleration & stay higher for few more seconds even after completely stopped. Plus another slightly different scenerio.

    Did they happen? They sure did. You can believe or chose not to. I know incidents happened. All that matters to me is that I know they did. Have I lodged any complaints? No. I spoke with my son, and trust him. He does auto development/engineering. We are addressing my vehicles issues.

    I feel some/maybe many people may have had real problems also. I would hate to blame people for the incidents, when the experts are still debating.and no decision has been reached. I would personally prefer to be respectful of everyone, These people had to be quite scared. I think and do hope alot of you feel the same way.

    None of us know for sure what the cause is, and so we are all speculationg at this stage. If cause is finally determined to be owners. Then so it is. And I would still feel sorry for these people who went through scarey incidents. Claims made falsely or with litigious intent for monetary gain can be addressed appropriately. We are all human and we all make mistakes.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I noticed he has been jumping on this. But he seems to have gotten on others too. Detail on subject matter appears good. Document format better than most I have found. Have verified several of facts - proven ok. Can't address any engineering aspects.

    So he has DHTSA and lawmaker's attention. Thanks for letting me know. Is he testifying??
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have have a few intermittant minor incidents of sudden increased acceleration

    I have no doubt your observations are correct. I have those surges with my 2007 Sequoia. It was discounted as raising the idle to compensate for the AC kicking in. That may be. I do keep a firm press on the brake pedal when stopped to avoid lurching into traffic. I also experience a pause in acceleration when cresting a hill. When I depress the accelerator it takes a long moment to respond with a subsequent lurch if I am not very careful. So my impression of Toyota DBW is it stinks. And to be fair, my GMC PU was not much better. I think we are going backward personally.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe Sean Kane is on the Congressional docket concerning the Toyota UA issue.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Glad to hear someone else has had somewhat similiar. Could control. but shocked. Each time checked and checked, and thought and thought. No cause. Serviced and checked. One more after that. Hardest part - now for two months - nothing. We shall see. I am going down to visit my son couple of weeks. He plans to take car to work and will try to investigate further. He has setup, so we shall see. ??? And then maybe it could be gone for good.

    I spoke with my friend who have 2008 RAV4 and they had noticed recently & occasionally more delay of accelerator letting up when brake applied while driving. But no increase. Seemed minor.

    Your problem is a litttle different. I did see some complaints about this though.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    So he is testifying. Only found that site when I had seen mentioned couple times newspaper.

    Thanks
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Law suits are dismissed if not legally substantiated. Anyone can sue, but proceeding ahead is not guaranteed. I don't think Toyota will always just settle. Legal costs to defend may be more cost effective. $50,000 bill for about 6 months legal defense (estimate SF moderate priced excellent SF attorney group) is lots more prudent than $100,000++++ settlement.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    shraon.....I believe the lawsuits are coming. There's just too much evidence pointing at Toyota. You've got deaths, injuries and accidents that are all pointing to either UA or braking issues. You're right, anyone can sue. Not everyone will be successful.

    Key here is whether Toyota did enough, in a timely manner, to correct the maladies.

    That's why I think the quicker they move to the brake override system on cars past and present, the better they'll be able to defend themselves that they did indeed move swiftly in dismissing claims, at least for those plaintiffs that complained, but did not suffer bodily harm, nor an accident.

    Someone posted something regarding the '11 Avalon.....directly from their press release..."Avalon will also have a redesigned
    accelerator pedal assembly and a brake override system."


    For all intents and purposes, Toyota is admitting that there was a problem with their former accelerators and lack of brake override, otherwise they wouldn't have made it a point to include and announce those "features".

    The Avalon uses the same engine, and probably the same ECU (assuming that's what needs to be reflashed) that's used in at least the Camry, ES 350, GS 350, IS 350, RX 350..and any other application utilizing the 3.5L V6. I'm fairly certain that the ECU is different in the Prius and Lexus and Lexus HS hybrid, which were recalled, even in Japan, for braking issues. Still, that ECU is the part that's common to all of those vehicles that have issues. Does it extend to 4 cyl models? I don't know. Does it extend to models that use the V8? Don't know that, either.

    But, if a reflash solves the problems with both UA and braking, and many pundits/experts, etc say that it will, then that's what Toyota should do, to all cars that are affected, or could possibly be affected. Looks like they're doing the reflash for new models.

    In the '11 Avalon's case, I'm sure development was pretty far along and feature sets were cut in stone until they made the decision for the reflash to include the brake override. That's a safety decision that was probably very recent (like within the last couple of months) to include.

    So, it can be done. Moreover, it should be done.

    I get the suspicion that after Toyota meets with Congress, that it will be done, whether they want to or not.

    Declining quality issues? That's something that's going to take a bit more time to overcome. Clearly, they're going to have to readress both their engineering of parts, and their process to install parts on the factory floor, worldwide.

    They've got a big job ahead of them. I'm sure Toyota is up to the task, if and when they decide to tackle it.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "I do take exception to your stattement- "

    I am sorry, but exactly which statement or statements of mine you took exception with? and why?
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "For all intents and purposes, Toyota is admitting that there was a problem with their former accelerators and lack of brake override, otherwise they wouldn't have made it a point to include and announce those "features"."

    so in your view, car companies have no reason to redesign their vehicles or add features unless and until to cover up an issue?

    really? you cannot think of any other reasons?

    that's pretty shocking (that you cannot think of any other reason), don't you think?
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    what if the primary system is problematic 0.0000005% of the time, and everything else is the same. Will you add that back-up system?

    Probably not in your vehicle. :P But our society certainly has a lot of experience with electronic devices in the last few years; and the failure rate is no where near that good. You can say that after years of development and alpha and beta testing of the MS OS, that it is an anomaly that Microsoft issues hundreds of patches / year. Or I can look at my top-of-the-line washer which just needed a new computer board the other day. Our hardware and software is full of bugs and failures waiting to happen. It is not a matter of IF the item is going to fail, it is simply a matter of WHEN and HOW it will fail.

    And as Steve said - UA is not a brand-new unexpected problem that just occurred 2 months ago.

    The problem is that vehicles have systems that will fail in various modes - whether hardware or software, and do not have redundant systems as we mentioned on airplanes. They are using the same design-philosophy as our TV's, washing machines, and computers. The difference is the TV, washing-machine and computer are not going to injure or kill the operator if they fail. And the operator can pull the plug on a TV, washing-machine, or computer.

    Vehicle manufacturing design is being done with arrogance of the infallibility of their technology and quality systems, keep the costs low so don't include the redundancy or the manual shutoffs, and the fact that Marketing is not going to like having the consumer "alarmed" by the need to have a manual-shutoff there; as that is admitting reality; and if the competitor's aren't doing it, then that's admitting we have an inferior vehicle. That is why I said the NHTSA needs to step-in, in this electronic-age and put some minimum standards in, that all vehicle manufacturers who use a critical electronic system need to put a manual-shutoff in.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    weight is NOT an issue with a vehicle? are you for real?

    I think as in years past that people can drive vehicles without electronic transmissions, power steering, and power brakes. I'm sure my father did. ;) If not they have gyms, with lift-by-wire machines for you. :)
  • dturrdturr Member Posts: 70
    If Toyota vehicles have caused the death of one person; is that not one to many.

    The legal people should be involved and let us see the evidence and have a court decide if their is any culpability.

    If Toyota are to blame then owners and drivers have a right to know and decide if they accept the risk of driving a defective vehicle that can or has killed.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "But our society certainly has a lot of experience with electronic devices in the last few years; and the failure rate is no where near that good."

    what IS the failure rate of electronics vs. mechanical things? when was the last time an electronic part (cpu, memory?) in your PC died and when was the last time your engine or transmission gave up?

    or more broad stats?

    "That is why I said the NHTSA needs to step-in, in this electronic-age and put some minimum standards in, that all vehicle manufacturers who use a critical electronic system need to put a manual-shutoff in. "

    you can say whatever you want but the fact remains that modern fly-by-wire systems have no mechanical back-up and are perfectly safe, if not safer, to fly. had you been right, they would have insisted on a mechanical back-up there.

    so the fact that they don't is a pretty powerful repudiation of your arguments.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    so you think weight is NOT an issue with vehicles? or otherwise?

    a "Yes" or "No" would be helpful.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    so in your view, car companies have no reason to redesign their vehicles or add features unless and until to cover up an issue?

    Toyota did not announce the Brake Over-Ride feature being added to the 2011 models, until they came under fire for the San Diego ES350 tragedy. You can draw your own conclusions.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is why I said the NHTSA needs to step-in, in this electronic-age and put some minimum standards in, that all vehicle manufacturers who use a critical electronic system need to put a manual-shutoff in.

    I would agree as long as all the automakers are under the same mandate. It would be simple and not add a pound to the already porker cars we are being sold.

    If only Toyota were forced to do that it would be a hard sell at the dealers.

    Oh, by the way if our DBW system screws up just push the panic button. :sick:
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    With benefit of hindsight, it is unfortunate that Toyota didn't add a brake override feature as a safety measure. They may be guilty of over confidence. But of course they aren't the only large automaker not to install. All will soon install one, I suspect. And the Feds will probably require it.

    Some people will not be happy, though. Anyone pulling a boat out of a lake, or trying to get traction in the snow, regularly applies throttle and brake at the same time. But in the same of safety society regularly limits choice. "You will wear that . . . helmet, seat belt, etc."
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    millwood, when you have vehicles involved in accidents, injuries, or deaths, then absolutely you make that change available to the affected vehicles.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • 774774 Member Posts: 101
    http://cbs5.com/video/?id=61614@kpix.dayport.com

    I found this thought it would be of some interest.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    lzc....I have towed a boat. And, I have used the "left foot on brake, right foot in accelerator" simultaneously method of getting it up and down the boat ramp. I also have a 4WD vehicle in order to do that safely.

    All that said, there are other ways aside from simultaneous brake/accelerator application....namely, just using the brakes in backing down a ramp, and using only the accelerator while moving up the ramp.

    Personally, I'd never use a Camry, or any other 2WD only vehicle to accomplish that task.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    So now the TC disable PB will have three functions, push once to disable TC, push again to also disable VSC, and yet again to disable brake/throttle failsafe.

    Allowing the brake and throttle to be used simultaneously until the next engine restart.

    So what's so hard about that...??
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    774...great find. Even better that the dealership in the video is making it available to anyone who asks (not just 2007+ Camry owners).

    Toyota's listening. That's a good thing, too. And, they're taking at least some initial steps to do the proper fix. That's even better.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    wwest....you've lost me.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • 774774 Member Posts: 101
    Glad you liked it. I am in hopes my yet to be delivered Sequoia sitting on the dealers lot can get the brake override installed.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    774....I've got a friend who has a year old Sequoia. Very nice vehicle. Best of luck in getting the software fix done.

    I don't understand why Toyota hasn't made some sort of PR on doing the software to the general public. I'd be trumpeting that achievement all over the place, if I were them.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • 774774 Member Posts: 101
    My first Sequoia a 2001 was problem free with 98,000 miles on it that I sold 4 months ago to buy the 2010 model. I remain optimistic that Toyota will do the right thing and install the brake override in my current model now or in the near future.
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    If it's true that installing the override involves nothing more than tweaking the software, Toyota made a very expensive decision not to do it sooner. It boggles the mind. It solves the problem, no matter what the cause.

    I suppose the issue of liability comes up. Doing it at anytime after it could have been done will sway juries that Toyota has been negligent.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    If it's true that installing the override involves nothing more than tweaking the software, Toyota made a very expensive decision not to do it sooner.

    I'm sure that's a question Congress will be asking them, as well as Toyota has probably asked themselves.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Toyota's defense strategy: Wrap itself in the American flag

    Gosh, when all else fails, push patriotism :sick:

    If you've seen Toyota's latest television ad campaign about how they've let down customers and are promising to do better, you might wonder what happened to the Japanese. Toyota is, after all, a Japanese company. And Japanese workers are no where to be seen in the ads.

    Instead, the images are of busy American workers -- all hellbent on making better cars that won't kill you from unintended acceleration, the source of most of Toyota's problems right now. The Japanese workers have been banished because the ads underscore Toyota's strategy now that the next phase of its battle is about to begin before congressional committees in Washington. Toyota has suddenly become all about American jobs for American workers. Never mind that the profits flow to Tokyo.
  • tomjavatomjava Member Posts: 136
    Thanks for the link.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    when was the last time an electronic part (cpu, memory?) in your PC died.

    Well I would say my last computer running Windows XP died - locked-up the CPU - about every week. It required shutting off the power and rebooting. My XBox360 experienced the Red-Ring of death (believe it was overheating) a little over 1 year.

    My 6 year old washer had the computer board replaced last week.

    My cable company remote was replaced last week, as one of the contacts on a button didn't work.

    My radar-detector has a bad connection somewhere, and shutsdown and resets when I hit a larger frost-heave.

    A few years ago I had a Check-engine light; the problem was the sensor had gone bad.

    or more broad stats?

    I'm sure you could find 100 websites discussing software and hardware issues just in PC's. Probably a 1,000 or more on general electronics failures. Knock yourself out. I think you'll get laughed off these forums if you're claiming software and electronic products are foolproof, OR anywhere near foolproof.

    you can say whatever you want but the fact remains that modern fly-by-wire systems have no mechanical back-up and are perfectly safe,

    Really? Did you forget? http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/13/plane.crash.new.york/
    It doesn't sound like the vaunted computer control and the FBW worked very well here. Did the computer override the crew's attempt to try and retract the landing gear? or did it override their attempts at control? or did it fail to make the observation that the humans did that there was a lot of ice on the wings. You say it's computer controlled and keeps humans from making mistakes; what happened here? "Perfect"? you're dreaming, end of discussion.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    I would agree as long as all the automakers are under the same mandate. It would be simple and not add a pound to the already porker cars we are being sold.

    Yep. Just like seatbelts had to be mandated, because it is a very difficult sell for one company to do these sorts of things. Difficult because someone in the Marketing Dept. or the Executive corner-office is going to say "there is a negative connotation/message being sent to the customer in doing this."
  • oparroparr Member Posts: 74
    I found this thought it would be of some interest.

    Finally...The real McCoy. Thanks for the link.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Toyota and Tiger Woods: Kindred spirits

    NEW YORK (Fortune) -- The question is being raised more and more: Can Toyota recover its reputation?

    There is no simple answer. The automaker once enjoyed exceptional renown. In addition to being the largest and most profitable auto company on the planet, Toyota was the most studied and copied. Its production system became a benchmark and a model for competitors to emulate around the world.

    On top of that, Toyota (TM) was known for always putting the customer first, hence its passion for building cars with the highest quality and reliability. The automaker obsessively studied car buyers to find out what they wanted and then provided it for them. It became a leader in new vehicle segments like crossovers, and new technologies like gas-electric hybrids.

    Toyota trouble round-up: What to do now

    Compare that to the Tiger Woods scandal. Like Toyota, Woods had a reputation for excellence that far exceeded other golfers.

    Like Toyota, Woods was widely emulated for his faultless behavior and superb sportsmanship.

    Like Toyota, Woods initially put out a story about his wife, a golf club, and the shattered windows of his SUV that bore little relation to reality.

    Like Toyota, the news about Woods' missteps was allowed to trickle out day by day without being effectively refuted.

    Like Toyota, Woods refused to make a public appearance to apologize for his misdeeds (and still hasn't), preferring to issue press releases instead.

    And like Toyota, Woods promised to mend his ways, without offering any convincing evidence of exactly how he will do that.

    Just as Toyota has seen sales crumble and its used car values plummet, Woods has been abandoned by his corporate sponsors and shunned by other golfers.

    The critical ingredient that is still missing from the rehabilitation of both Tiger and Toyota is that convincing personal apology. Tiger hasn't been seen in public since the night of the accident and needs to make a believable account of his behavior along with a statement of his determination to change.

    image
  • pjc1pjc1 Member Posts: 72
    I am concerned that Toyota is on the ropes. Although I hope they make it through, they have a big hill to climb relative to the growing suspicions that they withheld information about quality or safety problems. Fact gets lost in fiction when these things occur so although most would like to believe that this did not happen the questions, if not dealt with, will be a cancer on the brand and the company.

    I know this first hand as I am going through it right now in my own business life. Certainly not at this scale but just the same, people are people and trust is a scarce commodity.

    I can't provide any sage advice or silver bullets as it really is a day to day issue but one thing I have learned is that if they have any reason to believe that things were withheld they better get it out there now or I fear the worst for them over the long haul.
  • obrien64obrien64 Member Posts: 9
    I own a 2004 Toyota Sienna XLE. I have been watching the news about the recalls on certain Toyota model vehicles and so far the Sienna is not on the list. While the brake pedals are being blamed by Toyota officials for the problems with acceleration. Experts are saying its the Electronic Throttle Control System that is causing the acceleration problems. I called Toyota today to check and see if my vehicle also had this same type of throttle system which people are questioning and it does. I am concerned with the safety of my vehicle and why if many other vehicles have this same throttle system they arent all being recalled.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Because these so-called "experts" haven't come to the conclusion that it really has anything to do with the electronics ;)
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "Well I would say my last computer running Windows XP died"

    sounds like an extreme string of bad luck. one of my Windows XP has been on for over a year - no problem whatsoever to dish out files to my other machines. My own Windows XP desktop has been on power on / hibernation cycle maybe half a year. no problem whatsoever, other than occasionally losing this particular dvd-rom.

    and my other PCs are quite fool proof as well. I did have a string of hard drives going back on me a few years back but that's mechanical.

    I have had multiple issues with my 330, my a/c and my fireplace insert most recently so I would say that my experience is otherwise.

    "I think you'll get laughed off these forums if you're claiming software and electronic products are foolproof, OR anywhere near foolproof. "

    I think anyone comprehending this discussion as that deserves to be laughed off. and I also think if you were to proclaim there that mechanical devices are statistically more reliable than electronic ones, you would have been laughed off before you could start, :)

    "Did you forget? http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/13/plane.crash.new.york/"

    did you read the final conclusion on that investigation? if no, you shouldn't check it out because it basically smacked your conclusion.

    "You say it's computer controlled and keeps humans from making mistakes; "

    I thought I had spent considerable time to boil down the various flavors of fly-by-wire for you. Had you understood what fly-by-wire really is and the different roles played by computers / software there, you wouldn't have needed to ask those questions.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    they may not be able to come to any conclusions on that. software bugs are tough to find and replicate.

    they are in general easy to fix, though.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "If it's true that installing the override involves nothing more than tweaking the software, Toyota made a very expensive decision not to do it sooner. It boggles the mind. It solves the problem, no matter what the cause."

    that solution has its own issues as well. what if the brake sensor malfunctioned and as a result the override stopped the engine when you were trying to merge onto the highway?

    every engineering decision is a compromise made after lots of sleepless nights. If anything, you do NOT want a vendor to make a quick middle of other course correction like this one.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...tweaking the software.." "..expensive decision not to do it sooner.."

    Sooner, or even NOW, may not have been a viable solution.....

    "..tweaking the EXISTING software will NOT result in a TRUE failsafe brake over-ride of the throttle plate opening..."

    For that to happen one must presume that the currently SUSPECT software is ALWAYS WELL BEHAVED, robust, reliable and BUG FREE. Additionally there is ALWAYS the question of a throttle plate mechanical failure, binding, etc.

    The only TRUE BTO, Brake Throttle Over-ride would use a completely different/separate/independent design approach. Maybe an ECU module that monitors the brake pedal switch, the brake pressure sensor, and BOTH throttle plate position feedback sensors.

    If the brakes are applied and BOTH throttle plate sensors do not quickly indicate movement to the idle position then the BTO module would open the EFI ground return circuit and only "reset" with the ignition switched off and then back on.
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    >>every engineering decision is a compromise made after lots of sleepless nights. If anything, you do NOT want a vendor to make a quick middle of other course correction like this one.

    You make a very good point. One hopes Toyota has thoroughly tested this "fix." If not . . . . . wow! I assumed Toyota didn't offer up a brake override system because of the complexities of retrofitting cars on the road. Now this . . . . easy fix.
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    >>. . .tweaking the EXISTING software will NOT result in a TRUE failsafe brake over-ride of the throttle plate opening..."

    What you say makes sense. But sometimes you do the best you can in the time frame in which something must be done. Toyota is in that position today.

    Even if this isn't the ideal fix, since the problem occurs only rarely, even a less than ideal fix may eliminate the problem for all practical purposes, no?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    First, that airplane was NOT FBW.

    Second had it been FBW the electronic control might have been programmed to at least "push-back", nose DOWN, if not even automatically moving the throttles to MILITARY power mode, when the idiot pilot tried to pull the nose up with the stall warning sounding LOUDLY in his ear.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..may eliminate.....purposes,no?.."

    That question can only be correctly answered once we know EXACTLY what the causative factor is.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Lawyers says Toyota accelerator defect could have killed 3 in 2006 crash

    image

    Toyota’s recent recall of more than 8.1 million vehicles is shedding light on a lot of things – one of them being an old court case about an accident involving a 1996 Toyota Camry.

    According to court filings, on June 10, 2006, 29-year-old Koua Fong Lee was traveling eastbound on Interstate 94 going as fast as 90 mph when his car hit an Oldsmobile at a red light. The accident killed the driver of the Oldsmobile along with his 10-year old son. His 7-year old niece was left a quadriplegic and died a year and a half later.

    Lee was eventually sentenced in 2008 to eight years in prison after being convicted of criminal vehicular homicide.

    Lee’s defense attorney is now trying to get the case reopened, amid news of millions of recalled Toyotas for problems relating to sudden acceleration.
Sign In or Register to comment.