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Consumers Report study was for only all 2008 models conducted Jan, 2009 - Aug, 2009, and stated they wanted to omit inclusion of complaints after San Diego accident due to publicity and effect. Consumer Report would be the most recent year statistics available.
Here are both links again:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/12/sudden-unintended-acceleration-sua- -analysis-2008-toyota-lexus-ford-gm.html
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&news- Id=20100210005994&newsLang=en
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Consumer Report Data Graph (cannot copy as graph)
Sudden, Unintended Acceleration DataFor 2008 models only
8 months records Jan, 2009-Aug 28, 2009 -
"To put the figures into proper perspective, we compared the number of complaints against overall market share"
Each line - Automaker - 2008 model-yr complaints - Share Complaint 2007-2008 average market share
Toyota 52 - 41% - 16%
Ford 36 - 28% - 16%
Chrysler 11 - 9% - 12%
General Motors 7 - 5% -23%
Honda 5 - 4% - 10%
Nissan 4 - 3% - 6%
*Reflects complaints submitted prior to August 28th, 2009.
(GRAPH -I note 83% of auto manufacturers market accounted for in above graph -Per centages of problem account for 90% - 17% of remaining auto market account for remaining 10% of complaints - Note - each listed manufacturer's per centage (Share Complaint %)
of problems does not come from total number of listed complaints in this graph - so assume Share Complaint % comes from total number of all manufacturers & includes remaining 17% of the auto manufacturers - info not provided)
FOLLOWUP - copied from CR article regarding statistical data
"In analyzing all 5,916 reports on 2008 models, Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center and Statistics Department identified 166 cases in which the complaint described sustained unintended acceleration that the driver found difficult or impossible to control. Such incidents prompted a related safety advisory focused on floor-mat entrapment issued by both NHTSA and Toyota in September, 2009.
We used 2008 models to provide a snapshot across all automakers and identify possible issues. The scope was further narrowed to complaints submitted before Aug. 28, 2009, when a California family was killed in a Lexus sedan experiencing uncontrollable acceleration, to eliminate the impact media coverage had in drawing more submissions.
The sudden-acceleration incidents were distributed over 22 brands, but they were not spread evenly. Forty-seven complaints were about Toyota models and five were for Lexus vehicles. Between them, Toyota and Lexus accounted for more than a third of all the unintended-acceleration incidents we found among 2008-model vehicles. Seen another way, Toyota racked up more unintended-acceleration complaints than Chrysler, GM, Honda, and Nissan combined."
____________
Edmunds Data Graph - 2001 through 2010 (through February 3).
EACH LINE - MANUFACTURER - RANK (IN ORDER OF MOST COMPLAINTS PER MARKET SHARE) - PERCENT OF COMPLAINTS IN NHTSA DATABASE - PERCENT OF SALES IN US MARKET
LAND ROVER 1 - 0.6% - 0.1%
AMERICAN SUZUKI MOTOR CORP. 2 - 0.9% - 0.4%
ISUZU MFG SERVICES OF AMERICA 3 - 0.3% - 0.2%
VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA, INC 4 - 4.1% - 2.4%
JAGUAR CARS LTD - 5 - 0.4% - 0.2%
VOLVO CARS OF N.A. LLC. 6 - 1.1% - 0.7%
CHRYSLER LLC 7 - 16.3% -13.0%
MAZDA NORTH AMERICAN OPERATIONS 8 -1.7% - 1.5%
MITSUBISHI MOTORS NORTH AMERICA, INC. 9 - 1.3% - 1.2%
FORD MOTOR COMPANY 10 - 18.3% - 17.6%
GENERAL MOTORS CORP. 11 - 25.3% - 24.5%
NISSAN NORTH AMERICA, INC. 12 - 5.8% - 5.9%
HYUNDAI MOTOR COMPANY 13 - 4.2% - 4.4
BMW OF NORTH AMERICA, LLC 14 -1.7% -1.9%
SUBARU OF AMERICA, INC. 15 - 1.1% - 1.3%
AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO. 16 - 6.8% - 9.4%
TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION 17 - 9.1% -13.5%
MERCEDES-BENZ USA, LLC. 18 -1.0% - 1.5%
PORSCHE CARS NORTH AMERICA, INC. 19 - 0.1% - 0.2%
SMART USA DISTRIBUTOR LLC 20 - 0.0% - 0.0%
FOLLOWUP - COPIED FROM EDMUNDS REPORT
"according to the database, which consists of complaints filed by individuals and is not checked for accuracy by NHTSA, Toyota was the subject of 9.1 percent of the complaints from 2001 through 2010 (through February 3). During this period, the company sold 13.5 percent of all new cars in the United States.
A key finding: despite being the subject of intense scrutiny of the company, Toyota ranks 17th among automakers in the overall number of complaints per vehicle sold."
NOTE:
Regarding Edmunds - work well done - still would have loved to see a breakdown for each year, since some manufacturers may have decreased complaints over past few years. This information would have been so very helpful to actually see and compare if that manufacturer is stilll having problems. Ex - one auto manufacturer may have been quite high 2001, etc. but have excellent stats recently.
Multiple year total would not indicate if good progress achieved and statistical data would not reflect progress.
Problem I may have noticed but not sure. Does Ford own Land Rover and Volvo??? These manufacturers are high in Edmunds graph I see. Must check further who owns who?????
Note - CR data narrowed down number complaints included. Appears Edmunds has used all UA incident complaints. Problems do exist attempting to compare two,
Don't forget there are more complaints at dealers that are not included on DHTSA data base many times. Dealers are not required to submit to DHTSA. DHTSA complaints filed by owners voluntarily. - into data base. Accuracy???.
I will let everyone attempt to analyze further themselves.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/ToyotaSUA020510FINAL.pdf
I have have a few intermittant minor incidents of sudden increased acceleration over past six-eight months, long before I even became aware of all the problems in December. I won't get into much, But mine were not human error, no floor mat, sticky accelerator, etc. I was told by dealer vehicle fine. Incidents may be unrelated to current problems though. But you don't push on brake when parking, and have engine increase acceleration & stay higher for few more seconds even after completely stopped. Plus another slightly different scenerio.
Did they happen? They sure did. You can believe or chose not to. I know incidents happened. All that matters to me is that I know they did. Have I lodged any complaints? No. I spoke with my son, and trust him. He does auto development/engineering. We are addressing my vehicles issues.
I feel some/maybe many people may have had real problems also. I would hate to blame people for the incidents, when the experts are still debating.and no decision has been reached. I would personally prefer to be respectful of everyone, These people had to be quite scared. I think and do hope alot of you feel the same way.
None of us know for sure what the cause is, and so we are all speculationg at this stage. If cause is finally determined to be owners. Then so it is. And I would still feel sorry for these people who went through scarey incidents. Claims made falsely or with litigious intent for monetary gain can be addressed appropriately. We are all human and we all make mistakes.
So he has DHTSA and lawmaker's attention. Thanks for letting me know. Is he testifying??
I have no doubt your observations are correct. I have those surges with my 2007 Sequoia. It was discounted as raising the idle to compensate for the AC kicking in. That may be. I do keep a firm press on the brake pedal when stopped to avoid lurching into traffic. I also experience a pause in acceleration when cresting a hill. When I depress the accelerator it takes a long moment to respond with a subsequent lurch if I am not very careful. So my impression of Toyota DBW is it stinks. And to be fair, my GMC PU was not much better. I think we are going backward personally.
I spoke with my friend who have 2008 RAV4 and they had noticed recently & occasionally more delay of accelerator letting up when brake applied while driving. But no increase. Seemed minor.
Your problem is a litttle different. I did see some complaints about this though.
Thanks
Key here is whether Toyota did enough, in a timely manner, to correct the maladies.
That's why I think the quicker they move to the brake override system on cars past and present, the better they'll be able to defend themselves that they did indeed move swiftly in dismissing claims, at least for those plaintiffs that complained, but did not suffer bodily harm, nor an accident.
Someone posted something regarding the '11 Avalon.....directly from their press release..."Avalon will also have a redesigned
accelerator pedal assembly and a brake override system."
For all intents and purposes, Toyota is admitting that there was a problem with their former accelerators and lack of brake override, otherwise they wouldn't have made it a point to include and announce those "features".
The Avalon uses the same engine, and probably the same ECU (assuming that's what needs to be reflashed) that's used in at least the Camry, ES 350, GS 350, IS 350, RX 350..and any other application utilizing the 3.5L V6. I'm fairly certain that the ECU is different in the Prius and Lexus and Lexus HS hybrid, which were recalled, even in Japan, for braking issues. Still, that ECU is the part that's common to all of those vehicles that have issues. Does it extend to 4 cyl models? I don't know. Does it extend to models that use the V8? Don't know that, either.
But, if a reflash solves the problems with both UA and braking, and many pundits/experts, etc say that it will, then that's what Toyota should do, to all cars that are affected, or could possibly be affected. Looks like they're doing the reflash for new models.
In the '11 Avalon's case, I'm sure development was pretty far along and feature sets were cut in stone until they made the decision for the reflash to include the brake override. That's a safety decision that was probably very recent (like within the last couple of months) to include.
So, it can be done. Moreover, it should be done.
I get the suspicion that after Toyota meets with Congress, that it will be done, whether they want to or not.
Declining quality issues? That's something that's going to take a bit more time to overcome. Clearly, they're going to have to readress both their engineering of parts, and their process to install parts on the factory floor, worldwide.
They've got a big job ahead of them. I'm sure Toyota is up to the task, if and when they decide to tackle it.
I am sorry, but exactly which statement or statements of mine you took exception with? and why?
so in your view, car companies have no reason to redesign their vehicles or add features unless and until to cover up an issue?
really? you cannot think of any other reasons?
that's pretty shocking (that you cannot think of any other reason), don't you think?
Probably not in your vehicle. :P But our society certainly has a lot of experience with electronic devices in the last few years; and the failure rate is no where near that good. You can say that after years of development and alpha and beta testing of the MS OS, that it is an anomaly that Microsoft issues hundreds of patches / year. Or I can look at my top-of-the-line washer which just needed a new computer board the other day. Our hardware and software is full of bugs and failures waiting to happen. It is not a matter of IF the item is going to fail, it is simply a matter of WHEN and HOW it will fail.
And as Steve said - UA is not a brand-new unexpected problem that just occurred 2 months ago.
The problem is that vehicles have systems that will fail in various modes - whether hardware or software, and do not have redundant systems as we mentioned on airplanes. They are using the same design-philosophy as our TV's, washing machines, and computers. The difference is the TV, washing-machine and computer are not going to injure or kill the operator if they fail. And the operator can pull the plug on a TV, washing-machine, or computer.
Vehicle manufacturing design is being done with arrogance of the infallibility of their technology and quality systems, keep the costs low so don't include the redundancy or the manual shutoffs, and the fact that Marketing is not going to like having the consumer "alarmed" by the need to have a manual-shutoff there; as that is admitting reality; and if the competitor's aren't doing it, then that's admitting we have an inferior vehicle. That is why I said the NHTSA needs to step-in, in this electronic-age and put some minimum standards in, that all vehicle manufacturers who use a critical electronic system need to put a manual-shutoff in.
I think as in years past that people can drive vehicles without electronic transmissions, power steering, and power brakes. I'm sure my father did. If not they have gyms, with lift-by-wire machines for you.
The legal people should be involved and let us see the evidence and have a court decide if their is any culpability.
If Toyota are to blame then owners and drivers have a right to know and decide if they accept the risk of driving a defective vehicle that can or has killed.
what IS the failure rate of electronics vs. mechanical things? when was the last time an electronic part (cpu, memory?) in your PC died and when was the last time your engine or transmission gave up?
or more broad stats?
"That is why I said the NHTSA needs to step-in, in this electronic-age and put some minimum standards in, that all vehicle manufacturers who use a critical electronic system need to put a manual-shutoff in. "
you can say whatever you want but the fact remains that modern fly-by-wire systems have no mechanical back-up and are perfectly safe, if not safer, to fly. had you been right, they would have insisted on a mechanical back-up there.
so the fact that they don't is a pretty powerful repudiation of your arguments.
a "Yes" or "No" would be helpful.
Toyota did not announce the Brake Over-Ride feature being added to the 2011 models, until they came under fire for the San Diego ES350 tragedy. You can draw your own conclusions.
I would agree as long as all the automakers are under the same mandate. It would be simple and not add a pound to the already porker cars we are being sold.
If only Toyota were forced to do that it would be a hard sell at the dealers.
Oh, by the way if our DBW system screws up just push the panic button. :sick:
Some people will not be happy, though. Anyone pulling a boat out of a lake, or trying to get traction in the snow, regularly applies throttle and brake at the same time. But in the same of safety society regularly limits choice. "You will wear that . . . helmet, seat belt, etc."
I found this thought it would be of some interest.
All that said, there are other ways aside from simultaneous brake/accelerator application....namely, just using the brakes in backing down a ramp, and using only the accelerator while moving up the ramp.
Personally, I'd never use a Camry, or any other 2WD only vehicle to accomplish that task.
Allowing the brake and throttle to be used simultaneously until the next engine restart.
So what's so hard about that...??
Toyota's listening. That's a good thing, too. And, they're taking at least some initial steps to do the proper fix. That's even better.
I don't understand why Toyota hasn't made some sort of PR on doing the software to the general public. I'd be trumpeting that achievement all over the place, if I were them.
I suppose the issue of liability comes up. Doing it at anytime after it could have been done will sway juries that Toyota has been negligent.
I'm sure that's a question Congress will be asking them, as well as Toyota has probably asked themselves.
Gosh, when all else fails, push patriotism :sick:
If you've seen Toyota's latest television ad campaign about how they've let down customers and are promising to do better, you might wonder what happened to the Japanese. Toyota is, after all, a Japanese company. And Japanese workers are no where to be seen in the ads.
Instead, the images are of busy American workers -- all hellbent on making better cars that won't kill you from unintended acceleration, the source of most of Toyota's problems right now. The Japanese workers have been banished because the ads underscore Toyota's strategy now that the next phase of its battle is about to begin before congressional committees in Washington. Toyota has suddenly become all about American jobs for American workers. Never mind that the profits flow to Tokyo.
Well I would say my last computer running Windows XP died - locked-up the CPU - about every week. It required shutting off the power and rebooting. My XBox360 experienced the Red-Ring of death (believe it was overheating) a little over 1 year.
My 6 year old washer had the computer board replaced last week.
My cable company remote was replaced last week, as one of the contacts on a button didn't work.
My radar-detector has a bad connection somewhere, and shutsdown and resets when I hit a larger frost-heave.
A few years ago I had a Check-engine light; the problem was the sensor had gone bad.
or more broad stats?
I'm sure you could find 100 websites discussing software and hardware issues just in PC's. Probably a 1,000 or more on general electronics failures. Knock yourself out. I think you'll get laughed off these forums if you're claiming software and electronic products are foolproof, OR anywhere near foolproof.
you can say whatever you want but the fact remains that modern fly-by-wire systems have no mechanical back-up and are perfectly safe,
Really? Did you forget? http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/13/plane.crash.new.york/
It doesn't sound like the vaunted computer control and the FBW worked very well here. Did the computer override the crew's attempt to try and retract the landing gear? or did it override their attempts at control? or did it fail to make the observation that the humans did that there was a lot of ice on the wings. You say it's computer controlled and keeps humans from making mistakes; what happened here? "Perfect"? you're dreaming, end of discussion.
Yep. Just like seatbelts had to be mandated, because it is a very difficult sell for one company to do these sorts of things. Difficult because someone in the Marketing Dept. or the Executive corner-office is going to say "there is a negative connotation/message being sent to the customer in doing this."
Finally...The real McCoy. Thanks for the link.
NEW YORK (Fortune) -- The question is being raised more and more: Can Toyota recover its reputation?
There is no simple answer. The automaker once enjoyed exceptional renown. In addition to being the largest and most profitable auto company on the planet, Toyota was the most studied and copied. Its production system became a benchmark and a model for competitors to emulate around the world.
On top of that, Toyota (TM) was known for always putting the customer first, hence its passion for building cars with the highest quality and reliability. The automaker obsessively studied car buyers to find out what they wanted and then provided it for them. It became a leader in new vehicle segments like crossovers, and new technologies like gas-electric hybrids.
Toyota trouble round-up: What to do now
Compare that to the Tiger Woods scandal. Like Toyota, Woods had a reputation for excellence that far exceeded other golfers.
Like Toyota, Woods was widely emulated for his faultless behavior and superb sportsmanship.
Like Toyota, Woods initially put out a story about his wife, a golf club, and the shattered windows of his SUV that bore little relation to reality.
Like Toyota, the news about Woods' missteps was allowed to trickle out day by day without being effectively refuted.
Like Toyota, Woods refused to make a public appearance to apologize for his misdeeds (and still hasn't), preferring to issue press releases instead.
And like Toyota, Woods promised to mend his ways, without offering any convincing evidence of exactly how he will do that.
Just as Toyota has seen sales crumble and its used car values plummet, Woods has been abandoned by his corporate sponsors and shunned by other golfers.
The critical ingredient that is still missing from the rehabilitation of both Tiger and Toyota is that convincing personal apology. Tiger hasn't been seen in public since the night of the accident and needs to make a believable account of his behavior along with a statement of his determination to change.
I know this first hand as I am going through it right now in my own business life. Certainly not at this scale but just the same, people are people and trust is a scarce commodity.
I can't provide any sage advice or silver bullets as it really is a day to day issue but one thing I have learned is that if they have any reason to believe that things were withheld they better get it out there now or I fear the worst for them over the long haul.
sounds like an extreme string of bad luck. one of my Windows XP has been on for over a year - no problem whatsoever to dish out files to my other machines. My own Windows XP desktop has been on power on / hibernation cycle maybe half a year. no problem whatsoever, other than occasionally losing this particular dvd-rom.
and my other PCs are quite fool proof as well. I did have a string of hard drives going back on me a few years back but that's mechanical.
I have had multiple issues with my 330, my a/c and my fireplace insert most recently so I would say that my experience is otherwise.
"I think you'll get laughed off these forums if you're claiming software and electronic products are foolproof, OR anywhere near foolproof. "
I think anyone comprehending this discussion as that deserves to be laughed off. and I also think if you were to proclaim there that mechanical devices are statistically more reliable than electronic ones, you would have been laughed off before you could start,
"Did you forget? http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/13/plane.crash.new.york/"
did you read the final conclusion on that investigation? if no, you shouldn't check it out because it basically smacked your conclusion.
"You say it's computer controlled and keeps humans from making mistakes; "
I thought I had spent considerable time to boil down the various flavors of fly-by-wire for you. Had you understood what fly-by-wire really is and the different roles played by computers / software there, you wouldn't have needed to ask those questions.
they are in general easy to fix, though.
that solution has its own issues as well. what if the brake sensor malfunctioned and as a result the override stopped the engine when you were trying to merge onto the highway?
every engineering decision is a compromise made after lots of sleepless nights. If anything, you do NOT want a vendor to make a quick middle of other course correction like this one.
Sooner, or even NOW, may not have been a viable solution.....
"..tweaking the EXISTING software will NOT result in a TRUE failsafe brake over-ride of the throttle plate opening..."
For that to happen one must presume that the currently SUSPECT software is ALWAYS WELL BEHAVED, robust, reliable and BUG FREE. Additionally there is ALWAYS the question of a throttle plate mechanical failure, binding, etc.
The only TRUE BTO, Brake Throttle Over-ride would use a completely different/separate/independent design approach. Maybe an ECU module that monitors the brake pedal switch, the brake pressure sensor, and BOTH throttle plate position feedback sensors.
If the brakes are applied and BOTH throttle plate sensors do not quickly indicate movement to the idle position then the BTO module would open the EFI ground return circuit and only "reset" with the ignition switched off and then back on.
You make a very good point. One hopes Toyota has thoroughly tested this "fix." If not . . . . . wow! I assumed Toyota didn't offer up a brake override system because of the complexities of retrofitting cars on the road. Now this . . . . easy fix.
What you say makes sense. But sometimes you do the best you can in the time frame in which something must be done. Toyota is in that position today.
Even if this isn't the ideal fix, since the problem occurs only rarely, even a less than ideal fix may eliminate the problem for all practical purposes, no?
Second had it been FBW the electronic control might have been programmed to at least "push-back", nose DOWN, if not even automatically moving the throttles to MILITARY power mode, when the idiot pilot tried to pull the nose up with the stall warning sounding LOUDLY in his ear.
That question can only be correctly answered once we know EXACTLY what the causative factor is.
Toyota’s recent recall of more than 8.1 million vehicles is shedding light on a lot of things – one of them being an old court case about an accident involving a 1996 Toyota Camry.
According to court filings, on June 10, 2006, 29-year-old Koua Fong Lee was traveling eastbound on Interstate 94 going as fast as 90 mph when his car hit an Oldsmobile at a red light. The accident killed the driver of the Oldsmobile along with his 10-year old son. His 7-year old niece was left a quadriplegic and died a year and a half later.
Lee was eventually sentenced in 2008 to eight years in prison after being convicted of criminal vehicular homicide.
Lee’s defense attorney is now trying to get the case reopened, amid news of millions of recalled Toyotas for problems relating to sudden acceleration.