Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

wwest · February 2010

"..easy to fix, though.."

NOT...!!

"Fixing" always entails "finding". Finding a software bug almost always involves being able to reliably replicate the failure mode and as we see that sometimes takes an extended period of time. and WORK.

Sometimes it is simply more expedient to provide a "work-a-round", BTO in this case.

oparr · February 2010

Toyotas recent recall of more than 8.1 million vehicles is shedding light on a lot of things  one of them being an old court case about an accident involving a 1996 Toyota Camry.

Does the 1996 Camry have DBW?

kernick · February 2010

OK - bad example on my part. I'm not an expert on which airplane has what control system.

Are you of the opinion that all problems with devices are either human-error or mechanical? Why does Microsoft and most other software makers issues patches? Why do manufacturers stock spare parts like the electronic board that went in my washer last week, if they don't fail regularly?
Why have thousands and thousands of people had to send their XBox 360 back for repair after months of initially fine use? Why does Sony have a lower but still significant breakdown rate of about on their Sony Playstation3 computer?

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6216691.html

millwood0 · February 2010

"Are you of the opinion that all problems with devices are either human-error or mechanical? "

anyone answering "yes" to that question doesn't have a brain.

"Why does Microsoft and most other software makers issues patches? Why do manufacturers stock spare parts like the electronic board that went in my washer last week, if they don't fail regularly?
Why have thousands and thousands of people had to send their XBox 360 back for repair after months of initially fine use? Why does Sony have a lower but still significant breakdown rate of about 2% on their Sony Playstation3 computer? "

there are a lot of reasons electronics fail. software issues as you correctly pointed out. thermal stress issues (where lack of heat dissipation heats up the die beyond its absolute maximum - 150c mostly), user issues, or incorrectly engineered circuits, to name a few.

but you would have to be completely blind if you don't realize the superior reliability and dependability record electronics have over mechanical ones, assuming both are comparably engineered.

graphicguy · February 2010

Sometimes it is simply more expedient to provide a "work-a-round", BTO in this case.

wwest....I believe this is exactly the situation here. The glitchy coding in Toyota's ECUs would probably take a huge and maybe lengthy effort to find and correct. The brake override is more than likely a workaround, albeit one that accomplishes the same thing as correcting the original code (that is, stopping cars suffering UA). Hit the brakes, engine RPMs fall.

imidazol97 · February 2010

>The brake override is more than likely a workaround,

If there's an electronic problem with the computer or the code and the thing goes crazy into acceleration mode... will it respond to a sensor input saying, "Oh, the brake is on so reduce engine to idle."

I think it won't fix some of the problems at all unless it's a separate failsafe design to throttle the engine (excuse the pun).

millwood0 · February 2010

"The glitchy coding in Toyota's ECUs would probably take a huge and maybe lengthy effort to find and correct. "

how do YOU know that the code is "glitchy"?

just how do YOU know that?

it is OK to speculate, as long as you lay it out and let people know that it is nothing but pure speculation on your part. Presenting it fact-of-matteredly is simply wrong.

oparr · February 2010

The brake override is more than likely a workaround, albeit one that accomplishes the same thing as correcting the original code (that is, stopping cars suffering UA).

Seems as though Toyota is dammed when they do and dammed when they don't. Logically, if the code was at fault here then we would see a commensurate amount of UA incidents coming out of Japan and other countries. That just isn't the case.

I recall seeing my wife hold down the accelerator pedal of a 1996 Camry, thinking it was the brakes, while in a Mall. Had I not been in the car at the time, I'm convinced she would have blamed the car. Luckily, no damage was done.

The above is probably the only UA scenario in which BO would be useless. Calling it a workaround when it addresses so many possible causes of UA is just ludicrous.

graphicguy · February 2010

millwood, well if the code wasn't glitchy there would be no reason for Toyota to try and fix it (as with the video posted earlier of the Toyota dealer installing new code into the ECU). Nor would Toyota redo the code for the upcoming Avalon.

Can I prove it? Nope. I doubt Toyota will let anyone into their computer labs outside the company to find out, either. All fingers seem to be pointing in that direction, though.

graphicguy · February 2010

oparr, if it was everone else's code that was glitchy, too....then every manufacturer using DBW would be reporting so many accidents based on UA. This is something that seems unique to Toyota, and their coding.

graphicguy · February 2010

;hc....I see Erin Brokavich on the TV every night pushing some sort of tort law firm for something. I don't run out and call the 800 number. Seems as if every day, there's some sort of lawfirm looking for people who took this or that drug, trying to get them to join some sort of lawsuit. Again, anyone can sue, for any reason. Being successful at it is a different animal.

Understand that these type of lawsuits mostly are levied on a contingency basis. Either they win the case, or they don't get any money......not even reimbursement for their expenses.

millwood0 · February 2010

"well if the code wasn't glitchy there would be no reason for Toyota to try and fix it"

there could be plenty of reasons for manufacturers to reflash the computers: to build in new redundancy, to build more redundancy, to add features, refine behaviors, etc.

the fact that we are changing our ways of doing things (reprogramming a computer for example) doesn't necessarily mean the old ways of doing things are wrong.

"Can I prove it? Nope."

well, maybe we should present our assertions / proclamation accordingly.

millwood0 · February 2010

"not even reimbursement for their expenses. "

that doesn't mean the cost to the businesses is not born by their customers.

imidazol97 · February 2010

>it is OK to speculate, as long as you lay it out and let people know that it is nothing but pure speculation

It's okay to try to beat down a negative about the product if you have proof the code is perfectly correct. Do you? Otherwise that is speculation that there is NO problem..

Otherwise, we can look at the unexplained acceleration events from the past 8 years and ascribe a few of them to floor mats and a few to pedals that are sticky which might apply more in low speed maneuvering such as parking, otherwise there are a whole bunch of incidents that are happening because of "something." That something appears to be the powertrain control unit or the code or something. It certainly isn't a flat tire causing the problems; it's something to do with the control systems.

oparr · February 2010

This is something that seems unique to Toyota, and their coding.

If it is unique to Toyota (and we all know it isn't) then it would be unique to Toyota USA. Even if so, why does it have to be coding....It could be the position feedback sensor used in the Throttle servo system....Several things can cause a runaway servo system. People have latched on to ECU coding because that's just about all they understand when computers are at the heart of complex operations.

graphicguy · February 2010

there could be plenty of reasons for manufacturers to reflash the computers: to build in new redundancy, to build more redundancy, to add features, refine behaviors, etc

Or, more likely in this scenario, they had some problems, and they found a work around for a solution, as has been suggested not only by myself, but many others who are even smarter than me. The fact that the Toyota dealer in the video mentioned that Toyota sent them a software "fix", for vehicles in their shop for something like "faulty floormats", even reinforces my belief.

I stand by my belief....their software is glitchy. Toyota found a workaround. Toyota is sending the workaround to the dealerships to install "while they're fixing their floormat issue". That the dealership service dept is offering to install the software fix to ANYONE who asks for it reinforces my contention even more.

Why offer a software fix if there isn't a software problem to begin with?

kernick · February 2010

but you would have to be completely blind if you don't realize the superior reliability and dependability record electronics have over mechanical ones, assuming both are comparably engineered.

Let's see some proof of that. I can make a machine that uses the weight variation of an item using gravity to turn an item the way I want (say a tin can). You make a machine that has sensors, relays, motors and software to turn the can, and we'll see which is more reliable and dependable. :P

And why do you think that Sears guarantees it's handtools for life, while anything with a switch, wire or motor gets a 1 year warranty? What do you think that says about the expected lifespan before failure?

Wake up! One good cyber-attack and most of your devices will be corrupted, or the electrical grid will be down. Electronics and automation are great for efficiency and comfort; fragile and lousy as far as dependability, and ease of finding the problem and fixing it. Perfect example - the length of these UA problems. Second example - flaws in the Prius's braking system.

oparr · February 2010

well if the code wasn't glitchy there would be no reason for Toyota to try and fix it

Words of wisdom there....So other makers (GM, Chrysler, BMW, VW, Audi, Nissan) who have implemented BO, did so because of code glitches?

graphicguy · February 2010

If it is unique to Toyota (and we all know it isn't) then it would be unique to Toyota USA. Even if so, why does it have to be coding

I don't know. Ask Toyota. They're the ones who made it a point to include the brake override code in their new '11 Avalon. They're the ones who've sent the code to dealerships, telling them to (quietly) also redownload code in addition to doing floormat replacement.

Did Toyota state it was unique to the U.S.? Hell, they won't even admit that they're doing it publicly....let alone which geographic region they're doing it for (could be all of them), or which models are included. Given that the dealership said they'd do it for anyone who asks, tells me it will work for everyone who may have either had an issue, or is concerned they could have an issue, regardless of model or model year.

Geez-Louise....you'd think some of you would be happy that Toyota found a workaround to at least one of the issues (UA), and it may extend to another (braking).

graphicguy · February 2010

Words of wisdom there....So other makers (GM, Chrysler, BMW, VW, Audi, Nissan) who have implemented BO, did so because of code glitches?

I haven't heard of any widespread UA or braking issues with those manufacturers. Could be their code was solid. Or, it could be because they implemented brake override code because they felt it was important. Send them a letter and find out.

lzc · February 2010

>>Why offer a software fix if there isn't a software problem to begin with?

Why is a software fix necessarily a fix for a software problem? The brake override system will presumably prevent accidents and injury no matter what the cause of UA, be it floor mats, driver error, faulty gas pedal assembly, or even a software gremlin.

You assume something that may be true . . . . or may not.

oparr · February 2010

Or, it could be because they implemented brake override code because they felt it was important.

Yes, it saves lives if ever something goes wrong. Several things seem to be going wrong in Toyota's case....Be it ECU code, floormats, sticking pedals or whatever.

BTW, Audi implemented BO after a similar debacle. AFAIK, no one has ever figured out what the real culprit was in their case. We'll probably see the same scenario with Toyota.

millwood0 · February 2010

"It's okay to try to beat down a negative about the product "

where is the logic here?

"if you have proof the code is perfectly correct. Do you? Otherwise that is speculation that there is NO problem.. "

well, I never asserted anything, either that toyota has problems or that toyota does not have problems.

so how I can prove an assertion that I didn't make?

or this is some kind of tricky questions?

smarty666 · February 2010

I would really love to hear from any Toyota owners apart of the recall who have already had their vehicles fixed with the pedal fix that Toyota came up with help? has anyone who experience UA before who now has the fix, have you seen any UA since the recall fix was implemented on your vehicle?

millwood0 · February 2010

I will make your life that much easier for you.

try to make a mechanical watch accurate to 1/10th of a second and we will sit down and compare notes,

"And why do you think that Sears guarantees it's handtools for life, while anything with a switch, wire or motor gets a 1 year warranty? What do you think that says about the expected lifespan before failure?"

it says that 1) mechanical things have wide quality gaps that some of them are very unreliable, to the point their merchant is only willing to provide a 1-yr warranty; 2) it is always a bad idea to compare apples vs. organges; and 3) it is an even worse idea to smack oneself in the face with one's own examples.

"Wake up! One good cyber-attack and most of your devices will be corrupted, or the electrical grid will be down. "

ok. try to cyber-attack my electrionic watch, my mp3 player, my amplifier, my tv, my mcu-clocks, my digital cameras, ........

I will give you all the time you want and if you break anyone of them through a cyber-attack, you can have them.

"Second example - flaws in the Prius's braking system. "

hm, try to cyber-attack that sucker,

wwest · February 2010

"..video...installing new code..."

Single source reporting, so I would be, am, suspect of the possibility that Toyota/etc is already installing "new" BTO code. Especially seeing as how no one else has said such was available, not even Toyota.

Was the "reflash" the dealer did actually related to the BTO, Brake Throttle Over-ride...??

I'd bet not.

wwest · February 2010

Does not compute, need more input...

wwest · February 2010

I know of at least one widespread incident wherein Toyota/etc issued a TSB to reflash the engine/transaxle ECU when the original code was not considered at fault. In about '07 ('08??) Toyota issued a TSB to provide a NCF, New Car Feature, as a retrofit.

After so many complaints regarding the 1-2 second downshift delay/hesitation Toyota revised the firmware in yet another attempt to overcome the design flaw in the U140E/F transaxle and its successors.

wwest · February 2010

"..I haven't heard of any widespread UA..."

No widespread..??

Wouldn't that INCLUDE Toyota/etc...??

xlu · February 2010

The number of new posts on this thread is shown as "4.611111111111111e+28"; the other threads also show very large numbers end with many 111s. Is the website hacked by someone?

kernick · February 2010

I did that to make a point to Millwood.

Next I'm going to make everyone's computer calculate pi, to prove how fast but unreliable your technology is.

How many of you feel warm and fuzzy about trusting your technological-toys after reading the following. And remember many of these manufacturers are trying to get these products 1) the cheapest, and 2) the fastest to market!

http://www.edn.com/article/CA47096.html

smarty666 · February 2010

Is anyone buying into Toyota's current commercials on TV right now? I can't believe they say they are concerned about their customers safety! When has any car company been concerned about the customer? that is why people have to die in order for something to ever be looked into or done about!!

great example of this, in my township there was a dangerous intersection at a US highway junction where several accidents occurred; several of my neighbors and myself went to several township meetings for years begging for a delayed traffic light to be put in because we all new someone would die eventually at the intersection; the township kept saying we don't need it, its not necessary and all are safety issues went through one ear and out the other; finally, a fatal car accident that killed 5 people happened at that intersection a few years ago

3 months after that accident a delayed traffic light was installed at the intersection!!

see my point?

stever · February 2010

I guess we've gone binary or something. Or maybe not - computers or software never mess up, right?

Stay tuned.

wwest · February 2010

What was Toyota/etc's motivation for adopting BTO (Brake-Throttle Over-ride) in the 2011 models....??

beachfish2 · February 2010

It seems like a blatantly obvious ploy to get free air time. And it's working. They have us talking about it.

I don't want it. I want to be able to work the brake and gas together. Even with the rear camera a Highlander is a handful to parallel park on ice or in the rain at night, etc. I live downtown on a one-way street in a century-old neighborhood. After 30 years I've almost forgotten how to park on the right side of the street.

My '10 Highlander is almost 9" shorter than my old '06 Avalon. I love parking it.

John

drdonrs · February 2010

You should have bought a Hyundai. All the ridicule I have heard in the past when I bought my 06 Sonata and Azera is all just history. Two of the best cars I have owned and I drive with confidence. I think Toyota's smug attitude has put them in the toilet.

don

deltheking · February 2010

Here`s a link to Toyota`s comeback plan straight from the horse`s mouth[article by Toyota head Akio Toyoda].. Toyota is coming back with a bang !! :shades: :P
link title

gagrice · February 2010

Toyota Recall: Issa Says He's Willing to Subpoena Akio Toyoda

After Toyota President Akio Toyoda said he had changed his plans and would not be coming to the United States later this month, Congressman Darrell Issa, R.-Calif., said he was willing to issue a subpoena to compel Toyoda to appear before his committee.

The US government can just shut all Toyota operations in the USA down. Then how long would it take his highness to get his butt over here? The arrogance of Toyota upper management is amazing. Didn't he watch what they did to Wagoner? Does Toyoda think he is bigger than Obama? Toyota being allowed to sell in the USA is a privilege not a right.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-recall-issa-subpoena-akio-toyoda/story?id=9- - 807150

Issa has a bone to pick with Toyota. They are shutting down the NUMMI plant in CA. I don't think Toyota wants to get Congress riled up against them. It is easy to write legislation that would put them out of business in a NY second. It would not be a first time. And probably not the last.

obyone · February 2010

Toyoda needs to learn something from the CEO of JAL.

Haruka Nishimatsu CEO

millwood0 · February 2010

"It is easy to write legislation that would put them out of business in a NY second."

it definitely would be easy to draft such a legislation. But it would be very difficult to pass it.

not to mention the stupidity in attempting to do so.

revit · February 2010

Former Toyota attorney says automaker hid safety problems

In a recent interview, former Toyota attorney Dimitrios Biller claimed that the automaker regularly covered up evidence of safety problems. Biller handled product liability suits for Toyota before leaving the company in 2007.

According to an exclusive interview with ABC News, Biller, a former top attorney for the automaker, the company regularly concealed proof of safety problems, and failed to disclose information that it was legally obligated to produce during litigation.

You have to understand that Toyota in Japan does not have any respect for our legal system, said Biller. They were hiding evidence, concealing evidence, destroying evidence, obstructing justice.

Biller went on to explain this belief with an anecdote, explaining that as he would prepare information that outlined possible safety issues of Toyota vehicles for plaintiffs his boss would remind him of what he referred to as the golden rule. Biller said that when he asked what that rule was, his boss clarified, Dont screw with the client [Toyota].

mnf · February 2010

You left out the part in the artical that says he was treated for MENTAL ISSUES and a onslaught of DEPRESSION. The attorney ( Biller) also says that my depression has improved since i left.The interview from the main stream Left Lane News.com why is he not on CNN, ABC, CBS or NBC .Oh i guess since he is a attorney he wont lie or cheat your right we should belive him

kernick · February 2010

Post 1194: what if the primary system is problematic 0.0000005% of the time, and everything else is the same. Will you add that back-up system?

not sure?

what if the primary system is problematic 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000- - - 000000000000000000000000005% of the time, and everything else is the same. will you add that back-up system?

Look you can tell me how wonderful your personal experience with your camera is, and that your MP3 will still sing you a song if there's a major cyber-attack. But you still have not addressed why your statements like the above - on computer and system reliability - do not match reality.

Your statements certainly did not match reality, when I posted a link to the failure rates of XBox360 and Sony Playstation3 computer systems. You have the major software company, and 1 of the top electronic companies in the world who would love to have failure rates near 1%. I believe you said something like "well things break", which confirmed my main point.

Let's take a look again at failure-rates: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/02/xbox-360-failure-rates-worse-than-mos- t-consumer-electornics.ars

They certainly don't look reliable enough that I would risk my life on 1 working any given day!

Please explain why so many Xbox and Sony computers break/fail, and how this does not negate your statements of consumer software and hardware is reliable.
If you want please feel free to go to Consumer Reports and tell us why they list so many models of so many items as poor or moderate reliability.

lemko · February 2010

Heck, I don't mind the traction control! It has certainly helped me get around in my RWD Mercury Grand Marquis during the worst winter Philly has ever seen! There is a button on the dashboard to deactivate it if I so desire.

gagrice · February 2010

My 05 Passat had a de-activate button also for ESC when you want to drive the car yourself. You could have gotten the same results from posi-traction on a rear wheel drive. My point is if a car maker cannot get all those devices to work without unintended problems, we are better off without them. The Prius is notorious for getting stuck on just a little snow or ice because of the traction control. It will not allow any wheel spin which sometimes it takes a little to get moving. Just another Toyota gremlin they expect the owners to live with.

winter2 · February 2010

To compare a Xbox failure to issues with an automobile is ridiculous. If an Xbox fails, no one gets killed or injured. If brakes on a car fail, even intermittently and/or even rarely, someone can get killed or injured.

larsb · February 2010

Gary says, "The Prius is notorious for getting stuck on just a little snow or ice because of the traction control. It will not allow any wheel spin which sometimes it takes a little to get moving. Just another Toyota gremlin they expect the owners to live with."

Unfortunately for my Toyota Love Affair, I have to agree with you on this one, and add that the Camry Hybrid has the same problem.

Because it happened to me in December 2009 when I got caught in a snowstorm/blizzard.

I came up to a highway intersection stop sign on a snowy road. I was only going about 20 mph, so I started stopping about 40 feet from the sign. ABS kicked in and started stopping me, but I still slid a little bit, and came to a complete stop at the sign.

It was clear, so I pressed the accelerator to go. No forward movement. No tire spin, the car just acted like the emergency brake was on.

Because I had heard about this problem in the Prius, I knew what to do.

I put the car in reverse and stopped after a few feet, then quickly shifted to drive and started forward. This time, the tires gripped, probably because I was no longer on "fresh snow" but on the "crushed snow" I had already driven on once.

Seems like their system needs refining.

Like a lot of systems on a lot of cars. 'Yota is not unique in producing cars which are less than perfect.

revit · February 2010

Toyota Recalls Everything

dturr · February 2010

Hey my neighbour has struck a deal with his local dealer. He will lease a vehicle if they swap out the pedals getting shut of the CTS assembly and they agreed.
He would not do a deal with shims and stuck to his demand.

kernick · February 2010

To compare a Xbox failure to issues with an automobile is ridiculous.

No one was comparing the result or effect of a failure, so you are mistaken. The point is whether a computer and all its subsystems are in an Xbox, a laptop, or a TV, those systems are riddled with software and hardware problems.

If an Xbox fails, no one gets killed or injured. If brakes on a car fail, even intermittently and/or even rarely, someone can get killed or injured.

I totally agree. You are making my point that these sorts of electronic systems are not reliable enough, to allow them to control the car without the operator being able to easily shut them down.

Unless someone can bring data here that says auto systems are much more reliable than our other consumer systems, I stand by my comments. It is not acceptable for even 1 person out of millions to be killed by a faulty electronic system, since it would be reasonable to provide an OFF button. Lawyers will have a field day with this issue, if an auto manufacturer gets up on the stand and admits that they didn't put an OFF button there because they have a relatively low failure rate, and they thought if only a few vehicles ran away - well that's okay.

Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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