Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

1242527293069

Comments

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The fat lady hasn't sung yet....
  • avucarguyavucarguy Member Posts: 56
    Back in 1990, my brother-on-law owned a 1986 loaded Buick Skylark 4dr 4cyl. When the car hit 55K miles, it started to give him all sorts of problems. He had the motor replaced twice, transmission repaired once, water pump replacement, exhaust system behind the cat converter replaced. and multiple other smaller issues with this car before he got rid of it at 90K miles.
    The car had a beautiful digital dash, and the stereo sounded great, but it was breaking down frequently. Our mechanic used to joke about how my brother-in-law is paying for his(mechanic) kid's college bills with his Buick's repairs.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Back in 1990

    That was twenty years ago.

    Back in, say, '71, if someone would have said they wouldn't buy a new Impala because their '47 Chevy was having problems in 1950, we'd have all laughed and considered the person a neanderthal. But now that most of us are older, we find ourselves making similar statements.

    That was then. This is now. Toyota's worse now than in '86; GM's better now than in '86.

    Bill P.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    After only 8 years my sisters Toyota dealer told her that the bottom area was so rusted that they didn't think it wise to drive it much longer as it was near being unsafe and that was 84 and I don't think Toyota's were any better than GM or Ford back then either so the 86 Buick is problems are at least fixable and was safe to drive.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    edited February 2010
    It is simply foolish to not use technology because of your fear of not being able to control it.

    No it is common sense not to entrust your life to a device you know isn't essential, that you can operate yourself. For instance would you go sky-diving if the only way for the chute to deploy is if you have an altimeter, and this computer-control system that deploys the chute? That's the only way you can deploy the chute, no backup chute either. Or would it make more sense to have the altimeter system, AND a backup manual-pull-cord? And maybe a 2nd chute? Even if the computerized system fails about the same as you're chances of hitting Powerball, it is still foolish not to have a manual backup system.

    Oh and I thought of you while watching the news today - guess what the high-tech military "missed the chimney" by about 1,000 feet in Afghanistan. :( Not very reliable if you ask me, or the Army who shut it down for review of what went wrong. The Afghan civilians are certainly fearful. :P
  • mdan1mdan1 Member Posts: 9
    Unfortunately you need to factor in the recession we are in and the fact that cars are not selling well anyway. I think short term Toyota will have to offer better than average incentives for most vehicles they sell; otherwise they will sit on dealership lots.
    IMO, Toyota will be forced into great incentives just to scare up showroom traffic. As it stands now Toyota does not make the most exciting cars on the market, the only thing that keeps them going is the usually great build quality and higher than average resale value - well that's past tense for now.
    If I were in the market for a new car today (which I am not) I would only purchase a 2010 Toyota model if it came with an unbelievable deal. It is no secret that overall quality has slipped in the past 10 years or so, but that is the trade off when you put trying to be #1 in sales in front of quality.
    I have owned several Toyota's in the past 15 years or so, and for the most part have been satisfied with the autos I have purchased. Would I buy one again? Maybe, but it depends on the competition and what they are offering at the time and price comparison.
    Toyota needs to refocus on quality and building the most trouble free cars on the market and they will be just fine; otherwise there are many other cars on the market that offer more driving pleasure and reasonable reliability.
    Get your heads out of your a**es Toyota!!!
  • popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    There is a good article in this week's Time Magazine about how Toyota was (is) basically in denial about their vehicle problems. "The reaction to the problem is a very Japanese thing", "Toyota does not understand how sensitive the American public is to automotive safety issues", and "Toyota is famous for having an arrogant culture" are some of the comments made that seem to explain a lot about the current situation.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    mdan....good points. Well, I'm certain the unemployment rate isn't helping much. But, those who are in the market seem to be flocking elsewhere. Ford just made a surprise profit (a healthy one, at that). I didn't see GM's numbers. But, they've stated they expect to pay back our tax dollar loan sooner than expected. Chrysler...well, they continue to slide. But, both Daimler Benz and Cerebus put them in such a big hole, it's still not clear how long it will take for them to turn it around. I know they're getting some new products from Fiat (and a redesign of at least the Jeep Grand Grand Cherokee, 300 and Charger) within the next several months. So, that should be the beginning of a turn around for them.

    What is clear, with Toyota's continued slipping quality, their safety woes, and falling resale values, the competition is eating away at their market share pretty dramatically. Toyota's in a situation where the dealers have over a 100 days of stock on hand. That's a big problem for them, too. I'm not even certain larger rebates will clear that amount of stock out. For one example, Toyota could quit making Camrys for a month....just shut down production for 30 days, and they'd still be overstocked (provided that people actually will buy those same Camrys as it's a tenuous bet that they will).
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • dturrdturr Member Posts: 70
    I think that there is a great deal more to come from Toyota. They have known that vehicles are not safe to drive and they need to come clean.
    I check many UK and European sites and they are saying just this.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    If you think the recession will further dampen car sales, then the other companies will be upping incentives too. Before the Toyota mess, a Camry didn't seem to list for all that more than some of its rivals like Malibu, so I think that may limit the downward pricing on it. This should hurt outfits like the southeast Toyota distributors from some of those car and dealer packs though and that would be a good thing!

    I'm thinking that if electronics are truly the UA culprit, then it will be inevitable that UA starts appearing more on other makes as well. I guess time will tell, but people need to look at the stats and the fact that experiencing UA is still a pretty low probability of occurence.
  • jkobty2jkobty2 Member Posts: 210
    Well it has taken longer for people to finally realize that Toyota has been cost cutting on its part quite substantially. The earlier problems of sludge some years ago were just the beginning. My 1999 Korean Daewoo built leganza is still running like new 11 years later, original engine, transmission, even all the lightbulbs are still working, an item that is usually requiring replacement in the first year of ownership on a lot of new models.
    Your best bet of quality these days is to buy Hyundai, KIA, or a Daewoo built GM car such as the upcoming cruze. Checked out the new Sonata at the autoshow and no other carmaker had anything that came even close in style, content, quality, and value. Another few cars that looked promising were the Buick Regal based on the German Opel, and the Ford Fiesta and the 2012 Focus all coming from Europe. Nothing the Japanese automakers had looked close to interesting.
    BTW, my wife just had to replace the entire front end on her 2007 Acura TSX because of rack and pinion complete failure. Apparently transport Canada already has enough complaints about these that Honda has extended the warranty on it. It affects most of their modes including the CRV, civic, etc...
    Honda did not issue a recall yet on these, but just give it time. I think they are banking on the fact that the failure is gradual and you will notice the steering squeek long before it becomes a safety issue, still at some point it will cause some disaster for someone who drives with the music and on and do not notice small things (I noticed the problem, my wife did not).
    At that point it will be another massive recall for Honda.
    In their favor though is they did not give us any hassle fixing everything under warranty even though the car had passed its bumper to bumper warranty mileage.
    It was about a $4000 fix including as well the water pump (yes failure after 2 years) unheard of. Japanese car quality.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    That was then. This is now. Toyota's worse now than in '86; GM's better now than in '86.

    Logically, yes. However LOTS of people will swear off a brand if they get crappy quality. That is reality. And that is the long term cost of crappy quality. It doesn't really matter if it makes sense, it's still the truth. Any manufacturer needs to consider that if/when they cheap out on their products.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    great point you made about quality, check out my post in another forum below which proves your point quite nicely!!

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f1b06e0/14
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    that kind of thinking is exactly what got GM into the trouble they were in which led to bailouts and bankruptcy!!

    check out the link to my post below and you'll see that I had trouble with GM for almost 30 years going all the way up to 2005, which the last time I checked wasn't 20 years ago!!! :P

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f1b06e0/14
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    tlong....people will put up with a lot of stuff in their cars. Two things the don't tend to overlook are quality and safety. Toyota has failed at both, miserably.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The "reflash" was not only a BTO upgrade but also a fix for a firmware bug that was/is resulting in UA incidents...??

    How, who, would ever know...??
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    wwest....that's what I think we all would like to know....especially Toyota owners. What exactly is the toyota dealership doing to an owner's car with the reflash. I think it's fair to say that they're installing the brake over ride workaround. But, what else does the relfash do?

    If it were my car, I'd want to know. But, as best I can tell, toyota isn't giving up that information.

    I kind of wish a Toyota service dept technician at one of the dealerships would wander over here with the answers, as opposed to trying to squeeze that information from toyota corporate (who still doesn't seem to be forthcoming).
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    In reality Toyota/etc may not know, and even moreso may NOT want to know.

    Someone at NipponDenso, Denso US, would undoubtedly know but having the information get to Toyota/etc would be questionable.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    edited February 2010
    Why aren't our vehicle manufacturers being asked to follow the same safety standards as many people have at work? Here's a good explanation of what the standards are.

    The emergency stop function must operate as either a category 0 or category 1 stop, as determined by a risk assessment. It must be initiated by a single human action. When executed, it must override all other functions and machine operating modes. The objective is to remove power as quickly as possible without creating additional hazards.

    http://www.ab.com/en/epub/catalogs/3377539/5866177/3378076/7131359/tab10.html
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    tlong....people will put up with a lot of stuff in their cars. Two things the don't tend to overlook are quality and safety. Toyota has failed at both, miserably.

    Toyota is teetering on the precipice and in danger of squandering a lot of their 40 years of repuation. However I would not agree that they've failed miserably...YET. When you look at the track records of Toyota vs. GM or C they are not so miserable. But they need to get it together quickly or they will be.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..Why aren't...."

    Because until "now" no one saw, foresaw, the need.

    The clutch went away.

    The mechanical coupling to the automatic transmssions went away.

    The mechanical coupling to the throttle went away.

    And no one noticed that there was no longer a way to uncouple a run-a-way engine.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Toyota has already suffered from losing a lot of their former reputation. Ford, GM, Nissan, and even Hyundai have built more positive reputation, in a short period of time (relatively). They're certainly taking large chunks of Toyota's customer base.

    But, Toyota is entering into an area of firsts, none of them good. Not sure of this, but 8.5M vehicle recalls, at least in such a short period of time, across such a broad range of products, for such a variety of maladies, have to be a first.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    you can look up the transcript of AutoNation's last quarterly call - autoNation is the largest Toyota dealer in the country and they discussed at length how this whole fiasco will impact Toyota.

    the general consensus is that the long term impact to Toyota is minimal.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "No it is common sense not to entrust your life to a device you know isn't essential, that you can operate yourself."

    it depends on what you and the society consider essential. At the basic level, clothing, shelter, cars, tvs, computers, and pretty much 99% of what we use on a daily basis isn't "essential" in that you can certainly sustain your life without any of them.

    does that mean you should be walking around naked?
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    edited February 2010
    "And no one noticed that there was no longer a way to uncouple a run-a-way engine."

    there is an engineering report by a west coast engineering firm (Exponent?) today on Toyota vehicles electronics systems. They bought 6 toyota / lexus vehicles last december and started to induce electronic problems in the vehicles to say if they couldn't induce run-away cars / unintended acceleration.

    In spite of their herculean efforts, they could only get lower engine output - apparently the computers will detect sensory malfunction and will default into a fail-safe (lump-home) mode.

    the report IS funded by Toyota.

    from WSJ:

    "Exponent has so far been unable to induce, through electrical disturbances to the system, either unintended acceleration or behavior that might be a precursor to such an event, despite concerted efforts toward this goal,"

    "In December, Toyota retained Exponent "to understand customer reports and claims of unintended acceleration in vehicles" which use its electronic throttle-control system. Exponent says Toyota didn't limit the scope or budget of its investigation. A person familiar with the study says testing and analysis by Exponent will continue for several months."

    "The evaluation was conducted by engineers and technicians specializing in mechanical, electrical, and automotive engineering. It included a series of tests such as driving tests with anomalies imposed on the electronics and characterizing the sensitivity of the system to aberrations and noise imposed on individual components.

    The tests looked at how the electronic sensors in the gas pedal and in the throttle body perform in different vehicles in normal and stressed situations. When failures were induced in these sensors, Exponent says the electronic control module detected the problem.

    "Imposing these perturbations resulted in a significant drop in power rather than an increase," Exponent says in the study. "In all cases, when a fault was imposed, the vehicle entered a fail-safe mode."

    In the event of any electronic failure, Toyota says its system is designed to default to fail-safe, or limp-home, mode where the engine power is significantly reduced."
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    any of you thinking that you are better qualified by Exponent should probably step up to the plate, :)
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    edited February 2010
    In Exponent hasn't yet asked for, and recieved, the firmware source code with full documentation, flow charts, etc, then they are simply pissing upwind, and a HIGH wind at that. Of course they would then probably need to hire the TOP CODER from the original source company in order to even begin to understand the code, let alone be able to troubleshoot/debug it.

    I wish them luck in any case.
  • maple2maple2 Member Posts: 177
    autoNation is the largest Toyota dealer in the country and they discussed at length how this whole fiasco will impact Toyota.

    the general consensus is that the long term impact to Toyota is minimal.


    Well DUHH!! What did you think they would say? You think they are going to say hmmm i guess we are screwed now. :lemon: :confuse:
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "... apparently the computers will detect sensory malfunction and will default.."

    And if the computer itself has the malfunction...DEADLY EMBRACE within the code execution maybe...??

    When the battery in my '01 911/996 was marginal I would not have even taken notice except shortly after starting to drive away the instrument panel would light up like a Christmas tree. I could switch the ignition off and restart and everything would be fine until the next time, RARE next time.

    I finally decided to pay attention to the fact that when starting the engine was turning over a bit slowly. Once I replaced the battery the engine would then start INSTANTLY and all those symptoms disappeared.

    My guess, "uneducated" guess, was that with the low voltage during engine cranking some of the ancillary ECUs, ABS, PSM, etc, were dropping out of operation, code crawling into a hole....
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I'm thinking if something else ends up involved it may be the cruise control interface. If computer coding, EMI, etc. is an issue it seems to me it would also show up in other makes in some iteration. Toyota doesn't have a lock on drive by wire or computer controlled cars. Throughout the years there have been sporadic reports of odd cruise control behavior in varies makes of vehicles. Regardless, a brake override would be a welcome addition, but I'm thinking driver error is probably the most frequent cause. Its good they are testing other things out though.

    I like the sudden increase in Toyota UA claims though, probably a combo of media hysteria and televised legal firms soliciting a buck. Reminds me of how whenever there is a city transit accident, if there were 6 people on the bus, at least 18 show up claiming injury after the accident. America - home of the lawyer on commision!
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    edited February 2010
    "In December, Toyota retained Exponent "to understand customer reports and claims of unintended acceleration in vehicles" which use its electronic throttle-control system.

    Amazing!! Who would have imagined that Exponent could support the exact result that Toyota wanted, and which Toyota is paying for. Next thing you know my Congressmen will be adding little addendums to bills, to help the lobbyists who just took them and their families on a fact-finding mission thru the Caribbean. Anyway, my friends and I will do a second study to verify the first. Where's Toyota's phone #? ;)
    I would guess Toyota will pay pretty well, as I'd certainly pay a lot to have some independent-proof (hahaha!) when the lawsuits start. Maybe Toyota can see if they can arrange some of the OJ jurors to be involved? :D
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    what does that say about the robustness of the code?

    I guess the writer of Toyota's code is god-like! :D I thought that was only the emporor in Japan? So the emperor must be moon-lighting? :D
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Toyota has already suffered from losing a lot of their former reputation. Ford, GM, Nissan, and even Hyundai have built more positive reputation, in a short period of time (relatively). They're certainly taking large chunks of Toyota's customer base.

    But, Toyota is entering into an area of firsts, none of them good. Not sure of this, but 8.5M vehicle recalls, at least in such a short period of time, across such a broad range of products, for such a variety of maladies, have to be a first.


    Again, disagree. The jury is out. Nobody looks objectively at numbers. You may be a bit too wishful. It could come true if Toyota screws up, but IMHO if they are honest from here on out and no more problems occur, their damage will not be long lasting.

    GM had 40 years of trash and that takes a lot of years to climb out of the hole. Toyota had 40 years of almost sterling reputation and even a few years of incidents that are admittedly rare (at least the UA problems) don't destroy that reputation.

    Ford's lawyers said let the Pinto buyers burn because it was too expensive to design a decent gas tank. That is worse than Toyota.

    Again, if Toyota does well from here on, they will only suffer a year or two. If they screw up or more problems discovered, it may get to what you say. But it is not there yet. I would personally still trust a Toyota more than a C or most GMs.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Toyota is paying the wrong company. They need to pay the folks that are doing them the most damage. The unhappy customers.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Ford's lawyers said let the Pinto buyers burn because it was too expensive to design a decent gas tank. That is worse than Toyota.

    How do you know that Toyota has not hid their findings on the flaky DBW system? There is evidence to that end.

    GM had 40 years of trash

    That is so much baloney. I owned 5 GM trucks from 1988- 2005. The only one that gave me problems was the 2005. Sounds like GM and Toyota headed down hill together. Just talking to my plumber. His 2002 GM 1 ton van has 255k miles with only a bad water pump. GM cars may have been junk. I have never owned one. Did the frames rust and fall apart like recent Toyotas? I think the downfall of Toyota since the late 1990s is actually understated.
  • mnfmnf Member Posts: 405
    edited February 2010
    Thats just like saying the Government or the UAW has no interest in Toyota failing DUHH...... ;)
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "I guess the writer of Toyota's code is god-like!"

    you guessed wrong.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "And if the computer itself has the malfunction...DEADLY EMBRACE within the code execution maybe...??"

    you apparently aren't aware of watchdog timer, something they usually mention during the first lecture on Embedded Programming 101, and they usually start to teach students about it in the 3rd or 4th lecture on the same class.

    "When the battery in my '01 911/996 was marginal I would not have even taken notice except shortly after starting to drive away the instrument panel would light up like a Christmas tree. I could switch the ignition off and restart and everything would be fine until the next time, RARE next time."

    mostly modern mcus run off 1.8v - 2.2v, and some older stuff run off 3.3v - 5v. Your battery (lead-acid) is considered fully depleted with an output voltage of 9.4v, and most systems light up a warning if it falls below 10.8v.

    so to think that your lead-acid batteries can fall to the extent that it would no long power a mcu is foolish and ignorant of the basic knowledge about electronics.

    "My guess, "uneducated" guess, was that with the low voltage during engine cranking some of the ancillary ECUs, ABS, PSM, etc, were dropping out of operation, code crawling into a hole.... "

    never heard of brown-outs, BOR resets, etc.?

    apparently so.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    " Who would have imagined that Exponent could support the exact result that Toyota wanted,"

    you are basically accusing Exponent of having no integrity, without any factual basis to support your allegation.

    " and which Toyota is paying for. "

    who else do you think should be paying for this? GM? you? the plaintiff's bar association?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    From my experience, GM cars have been excellent - from my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe to my current 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    GM had 40 years of trash

    That is so much baloney. I owned 5 GM trucks from 1988- 2005. The only one that gave me problems was the 2005.


    Perhaps if you want a truck. I like sedans and GM had nothing decent unless you wanted a boat that rode on cream of wheat shocks.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    no it isn't baloney!! GM has always spent more time and money in their Trucks and SUVs then they have their sedans; if you check you my posts in GM Customer Service and GM Market Share you'll see that the various 8 GM sedans I had over the almost 30 years I was with GM all had major problems and I spent thousands upon thousands of dollars to keep them going, all before 80k miles!! :surprise:

    GM trucks and SUVs are much more reliable then their cars have been!! there is the reason why the majority of Americans, for the past 20 years, typically have a Japanese car in their driveway and a GM or Ford pick-up truck as the other vehicle

    for instance my one neighbor has a Accord and F-150 and my other neighbor has a Maxima and Silverado!!! :shades:
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    'there is the reason why the majority of Americans, for the past 20 years, typically have a Japanese car in their driveway and a GM or Ford pick-up truck as the other vehicle "

    maybe just because the Japanese came to the truck game late?

    the pick-up truck is a very unique US thing. many of the countries outside of the US don't have them, or have much smaller versions of them. so naturally the US makers have been long at this game and have an advantage over the Japanese (or the europeans for that matter).

    the same could be said about cars 40 - 50 years ago as well.

    it takes time to catch up with someone, even if that someone has years more experience.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    well you know what really looked stupid with GM, Ford to a little extent, but GM was whining and crying when gas prices were over $4 dollars a gallon and they had huge inventories of large gas guzzling pick-ups and SUVs on their lots that they couldn't even give away and you heard all the dealership whining about how much inventory they had

    that was the problem, GM's primary focus has always been pick-ups and SUVs because as GM stupidly said, "that is what Americans want" despite the fact no one was buying them when gas prices were over $4 dollars a gallon - GM finally reduced production, too late I might add, of their pick-ups and suvs but then as soon as gas prices lowered production of those large gas-guzzling vehicles increased again - "HELLO, DIDN'T YOU JUST SEE WHAT GAS PRICES WERE AT AND NO ONE WAS BUYING THEM???" and there is a really good chance they'll be back at those high prices within the near future??? and then GM will be whinning again when they have these huge inventories of gas guzzling vehicles that they can't sell

    these are the local dealerships I have within 10 minutes from me, GM, VW/Audi, Nissan, Ford, Hyundai, Toyota, BMW, Infiniti, Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep, Subaru, and MB! of all these dealerships, the GM dealership has the biggest on lot inventory of pick-ups and SUVs which takes up almost HALF their lot

    now that gas prices have been hovering just under $3 a gallon, instead of $2, I've started noticing a reduction in pick-up and SUV purchasing and I've seen the same pick-ups and SUVs at my local dealership sitting there for the past several months!

    what really shows GMs stupidity is, that when gas was over $4 a gallon, all Japanese, Korean, German, and Ford had the smarts to severely reduce their large gas guzzling pick-up and/or suvs production when the gas prices started really going up! of course though, GM didn't and I remember my local dealership having to buy out two separate empty parking lots outside the dealership to hold all their inventory because the suvs and pick-ups were just sitting there while they continued to get their normal supply of coupes, sedans and pick-ups/suvs!
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    edited February 2010
    you are basically accusing Exponent of having no integrity, without any factual basis to support your allegation.

    "Suspecting" is not "accusing". I "suspect" since I have seen various examples where $$$ influences the judgment of firms. If you were an investor in Enron, with Bernie Madoff, or various companies that were rated by Moody's or other rating-agencies; and you did not suspect bias, then you were out a lot of $$$. It's not wise many times to wait for the proof. :D

    I also suspect that most of the scientists and universities behind collecting data on man-made global warming are biased because of the $$$ and power they receive for coming to certain conclusions.

    Everyone can be corrupted, it's usually just a matter of how hungry they are. What is uncovered on these issues can mean the difference of hundreds of millions or billions of $'s, so yes internal and paid-for analyses are suspect.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    GM's calculation at that point might be different: their business model worked on the basis that you have to keep your factories churning out those vehicles as the (marginal) savings from shutting down the factories are minimal, thanks to UAW.

    so they were facing two difficult choices:

    1) keep the factories working. that built up the inventory and hope a future reduction in gas prices will move the inventory. they are largely correct on the 2nd point - they thought $4 gas wasn't sustainable. But that depleted their cash fast which drove them to their demise.

    2) shut down the factory. well, they would have to pay the union members and not much else was saved. Remember that GM was a negative working capital company and they benefit from higher levels of working capital so a ramp-down of production would have been a huge cash drain and that would have killed them faster.

    your larger point is right, through: GM put all of its eggs in the truck/suv basket and when that stop'd moving, ...

    but I think their notion that americans want bigger trucks / suvs continue to be correct, except that at $4 gas, that was a lot less correct, :)
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    ""Suspecting" is not "accusing".

    does the following like suspecting or accusing: " Who would have imagined that Exponent could support the exact result that Toyota wanted,"

    "If you were an investor in Enron, with Bernie Madoff, or various companies that were rated by Moody's or other rating-agencies; "

    for your information, the rating agencies didn't cover Madoff. and unlikely to ever cover him or his type of busiensses, if you understand what rating agencies do.

    "Everyone can be corrupted,"

    that doesn't mean everyone IS corrupted.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Rude messages are a violation of the membership agreement.
    Off-topic messages, such as those addressing hosting of this discussion and the quality of GM vehicles, are a violation of the membership agreement.

    Please do not engage in either activity - they are equally offensive.

    The appropriate way to deal with hosting issues is via email. Posting within the discussion only ADDS to the problem. These discussions are not now, and never have been, monitored in real-time. The best policy is to ignore rude/offensive posts until a human host removes them - hosts each cover many discussions, so this may not always be first on the list.

    Thank you, and please return to discussing the issue pertinent to the topic of this discussion.

    kirstie_h
    wandering host

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    edited February 2010
    does the following like suspecting or accusing:

    It's subjective; depending on the bias of the reader. :D

    for your information, the rating agencies didn't cover Madoff.

    They were 3 separate subjects: 1) Enron, 2) Madoff and 3) Moody's. They each were either paying someone to audit them - Enron and Madoff; or 3) they were getting paid to rate companies (many they continued to rate AAA until days before their stocks collapsed.

    that doesn't mean everyone IS corrupted

    And I'll doubt an unknown's honesty, until they prove otherwise. And then I'll still have a camera on them, if they're involved in my affairs.

    Toyota has a serious problem right now, in that there have been so many dishonest individuals and corporations in the news. The worst thing they could have done is not to have had 1 "confession" of all problems. The way they have handled this with various statements and various recalls on different days, certainly makes it look like they are reluctantly giving information. It can all be legitimate, but it certainly looks like confusion, correction, and added recalls, coming out over months, is not the best way to present this.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Source: NHTSA

    image

    Another day, another major story on Toyota's recent recall woes. As you may have already heard, the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration – and particularly U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood – is less than pleased with the way Toyota has handled its various vehicle callbacks.

    Now, NHTSA has made its public displeasure official with a press release indicating that it will "[use] its statutory authority to obtain documents from Toyota to determine if the automaker conducted three of its recent recalls in a timely manner." To what end? To determine "when and how it learned of the defects affecting approximately 6 million vehicles in the U.S. alone" and to be sure that there aren't any additional problems Toyota has yet to announce.

    If the NHTSA finds that Toyota failed to deal with known safety issues in a timely manner, it could find the Japanese automaker liable for a maximum of $16.4 million in civil penalties. Granted, that's a pretty small dollar amount for such a large company, but it could spearhead the already rising tide of negative press and keep the issue fresh in the public's mind for some time to come. Click past the break for the official press release.
Sign In or Register to comment.