Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
"Ministry officials note that a small fraction of incidents make their way to the ministry because most drivers report auto malfunctions to their dealers. And in Japan dealers and manufacturers are under no obligation to give that information to the government, unless the company believes it failed to comply with national safety standards.
For the government to order a recall, it must have proof of a potentially dangerous defect, which is difficult to find without cooperation from the automaker."
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/business/02toyota.html?pagewanted=2&hp
I still have not confimed this report from NY Times, but does reveal US citizens must be cautious when evaluating statistics from other countries & the possible questions of those national safety agencies those countries have set up. Does appear at least Japan and China may have not established good national safety organizations to protect their citizen's safety.
Toyota may control the complaints in these countries?? Does anyone else know/have more info??
Toyota has not acknowledged that loss of all engine oil at highway speed probably results in a severly damaged engine. The low oil light does not come on.
See graph in article comparing Ford to Toyota over last 20 years. Don’t recall that Ford problems over that time were highly publicized. Not defending Toyota here, just more info.
Yet, Toyota states unequivocally that electronics/software are NOT the problem. Yet, they offer no evidence that brought them to that conclusion. Therein lies their problem.
There's been expert testimony that their electronics/software can indeed cause the problem, Toyota dismisses it flatly.
The one thing they can do, they won't do. That is install the brake over ride to their system. In some cases that's a simple reflash. In other cases, they'll have to replace the ECU/EPROM to accept the reflash. Installing the brake over ride systems won't cure their UA problem (as it sounds like they're using code from as far back as 1996, which may be faulty).. But, it will offer a simple workaround if one experiences UA in a Toyota....that is, just tap the brake pedal.
It appears that the reason Toyota doesn't want to institute this reflash for UA in their vehicles is because it would cost them too much to do so.
IMHO, you can put no price on public safety....especially given the first person testimony and facts that Toyota chooses to ignore. One life lost is 1 too many. Toyota doesn't share that view, though.
WE can't change the past. We can't bring back the lives of the CHP's family. We can't change the nightmarish experience of Ms. Smith in her Lexus.
Toyota can affect the lives and well being of those who drive their vehicles going forward, however by installing the brake over ride. Again, they see it as important, since they're installing it in their new vehicles. However, they do not want to bear the expense of doing it for the millions of vehicles that could be affected from as far back as the mid-'90s.
For the record, I don't expect them to install brake over ride of say a '96 Camry. However, it would be reasonable to expect them to do it over the vehicles they've produced....say, over the last 5 or 6 years. Before that time, it's hard to gauge the condition of a pre-2004 model. So, to me MY 2004 Toyota/Lexus vehicles would be reasonable to have the reflash done. But, they flatly refuse to do even that.
"When you analyze NHTSA data and remove the complaints due to the speed control deactivation switch, which we recalled in 2005, Ford's performance in this category has improved each year and our complaints have been significantly lower than Toyota's each year since 2005."
Ford has been doing something Toyota has not. At least that is how it appears.
Do agree, wrong (kind of) to blame the driver.
Just found this thread, don't know whether this was discussed previously. But, does this Toyota issue point to the dummyfication of car driving whereby the lowest common denominator driver "can" command a vehicle down the road with minimal or no ability to solve unexpected roadway or vehicle problems? Would a car driving enthusiast who experienced the Toyota condition in say a German brand sports car be able to cope quickly and bring the car to a stop?
I had a sudden acceleration problem years ago on a 77 Chevy Caprice Classic with Cruise Control. Car was out of warrantee and I started to experience acceleration while in cruise mode. Hitting brake pedal did not cut off cruise, I had to hit the cruise button to turn off. After a few of these incidents, I went under hood and permanently disconnected the cruise. I did not take back to a Chevy dealer, nor report it.
Also had experience in a Plymouth years ago driving on 2-lane US numbered highway. Suddenly, I felt nothing under my right foot, car started slowing. Quickly pulled over on shoulder, got down on floor, discovered that gas pedal fell off linkage and then reconnected it.
Say, oh, an Audi?
Audi, Porche, whatever. But, a car driving enthusiast, not a seasoned citizen with blue/gray hair whose previous car experiences were big boat Buicks, Cadillacs, Lincoln Town cars and similar.
It is important to understand that the proposed Brake Override installation is not a fix for the problem if the problem is not understood. It is a hail Mary band-aid. As I stated in a previous post, my own test indicated that the Prius already has brake override designed in. However Prius models have still experienced UA. That tells me that the brake override relies on the computer, but if the computer is in an abnormal state causing the UA in the first place, the existence of brake override becomes a moot point.
Not saying that Toyota should not proceed with installing the band-aid update, I just would not bet my life that it will do any good.
And until they do, any "reflash" might be non-productive. Incorporating new firmware routines into existing code might do no good if it is the old code itself, or a hardware design flaw within the engine/transaxle control module that allows the code execution to go awry, is found to be the base problem.
"...Toyota doesn't know the cause.."
Highly likely, VERY highly likely.
Toyota does not have full and complete access to the firmware source code and likely not even the engine/transaxle module hardware design. NipponDenso would be that resource and I am continually puzzled that Toyota/etc hasn't brought up that fact. They were willing to "expose" CTS, so why not NipponDenso, Denso US...???
Here is another link by NY Times and a little different analysis regarding the same information. NY Times broke analysis down even further. Good to always compare.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/business/02toyota.html?pagewanted=1&hp
Here are links for the two Edmunds reports
First one -
this first report really doesn't tell me how any manufacturer is doing in recent years. Great overview report, but limited knowledge gained for my own personal evaluation .I want to know how they are recently
doing.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161506/article.html
Second one -
this is improved f/u report as factually tells me how manufacturers are doing now. Toyota does have most complaints. Ford is second. I
can also compare to first report in certain ways but not totally. http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161706/article.html
ALL OF YOU COMPARE TWO REPORTS!!!
Edmunds letter to LaHood - want SUA/UA finally resolved all manufacturers.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161907/article.html
Crisis brought upon Toyota is result of San Diego accident with their vehicle which was a dealership loaner - was their own vehicle. Toyota has highest number per Edmunds. Is it fair? Yes, this is their auto and they must take responsibility as problems do exist with UA/SUA
for them. Facts support. Yes, Toyota has addressed in past, but solutions were not correcting. Lots of detrimental info coming forward about Toyota. This is Toyota's hot seat now. Facts reveal they knew all along and did not address even though would have been easy to do with brake override , These systems were already available to do such many years ago. Corporations do have to take responsibility for their own actions or inaction. If not addressed as documents support proof in this case, Toyota did not do. Their decisions for inaction have now reached crisis stage and are affecting their image. Toyota gambled. Toyota lost.
No one should support a corporation that decides on inaction!!! Toyota can blame only themselves for crisis situation they are in. Legally blame falls on only Toyota. And they can only blame themselves for all the bad documents/info about them coming out too. Toyota made all their decisions. It does appear Toyota took a country with free press, freedom of modern technology to disperse information quickly too lightly.
The other auto manufacturer who are just behind Toyota in Edmunds Data Report had better quickly clean house. They could be next. Remember I just sent link recently Hyundai - since all this pubilicity has already implemented brake override, despite fact their stats are good. What are the other manufacturers that don't have brake overrride systems doing?? Those with systems are at bottom of graph.
supoenaed documents released to public do show Toyota too has felt SUA/UA had to do with their ETC -electronics. And brake override is a "band aide." Until these auto manufacturers can find "that needle in the haystack" does appear system would at least
help people to have better control of a vehicle in SUA/UA incident. Those that do have these system have pretty good stats.
Toyota is offering brake over ride on current and future models. That tells me they do know how, and what needs to be reflashed. The older the the model, the simpler the code should be.
Whether Toyota has complete access to the code, regardless of source, doesn't change the fact that they have total control over what goes into their cars, and how it's designed.
Whether it's internally developed, or co-developed, it's under their control.
While Toyota may, or may not know the cause, they certainly know a good, effective work around, that they refuse to implement.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/video-hub/cars/safety/what-to-do-if-your-car-- suddenly-accelerates/17188412001/65060681001/
And I do know you did not degrade the reactionary capabilities of older people on the road. Many nonprofessional drivers, irregardless of age, have some difficulties controlling autos in UA/SUA incidents.
He wasn't quite sure what was happening with your vehicle. Sort of out of his expertise area. But he did say he had heard of no problems, but that didn't mean anything either to him.
The brake override logic is: "IF brake is depressed, THEN set engine to idle" regardless of the position of the gas pedal. The problem is that the computer has that responsibility. If the computer is in la-la land at the time the brake gets depressed, the computer does not even know it, it is still in la-la land holding the throttle at a "full" setting. That would explain why it also does not respond to a change in shifter position or "engine off" button presses. If you are expecting the computer to do anything, including brake override, you better start thinking of other options.
Perhaps the reason that counts of SUA incidents for vehicles with brake override look good is that so few vehicles have brake override. If you are referring to other makes of cars (besides Toyota and Lexus) I would say the reason is that their electronics do not have the Toyota design flaw, not because they have brake override in a lot of their models. For example, GM has one of the best overall records of SUA incidents in both percent and absolute counts (despite have the largest number of vehicles shipped) and very few of their vehicles currently have brake override.
Is it true or not??? Or just another protected/proprietary information stance so they do not have to do??? Does this make any logical auto electronical engineering sense?? It seems they reflash upgrades on many of these autos already.
Yeah, that what's started this hole downturn with Toyota is the claim one thing, but unfortunately it never ends up being the truth. :lemon:
Safety Recall A0A-Installation of "precision-cut steel reinforcement bar" (shim) into the pedal assembly. Significant statement-"if you are not satisfied with pedal operation or feel after installation of reinforcement bar, a REPLACEMENT PEDAL ASSEMBLY will be offered at no charge WHEN THEY BECOME AVAILABLE".
Floor Mat Interference Recall-Standard verbage about correct mat, grinding pedal, carpet clearance. Significant statement-"Toyota has determined that this defect does not exist in vehicles with correct and properly secured floormats".
At the bottom of the floor mat recall is another very significant statement-"AS AN ADDITIONAL MEASURE INDEPENDENT OF THE VEHICLE-BASED RECALL, TOYOTA WILL INSTALL A NEWLY DESIGNED OVERRIDE SYSTEM TO PROVIDE AN EXTRA MEASURE OF CONFIDENCE. THE SYSTEM WILL CUT ENGINE POWER IN CASE OF SIMULTANEOUS APPLICATION OF BOTH ACCELERATOR AND BRAKE PEDALS AT CERTAIN SPEEDS AND DRIVING CONDITIONS. THIS INSTALLATION WILL BE CONDUCTED AT NO CHARGE TO YOU.
Limited Service Campaign for VVTi Oil Hose-Replacement of oil hose with "newly designed" one. Significant statement-"The oil hose may leak, producing abnormal engine noise and illumination of oil pressure light". There is no mention of ruptured hose, loss of all engine oil, severe engine damage (abnormal noise?), etc.
It seems to me that Toyota has addressed most of the current safety issues relevant to my Avalon, but the downplay of these issues is deplorable. The addition of the brake override fix to the bottom of the floor mat recall and calling it a "system" was a stroke of genius from their PR people.!
popsavalon.....good news....and certainly about time.
Now, I wonder where the other MYs will fall with this same workaround?
Here is original CR one I had saved - found You Tube. Two car comparison - Toyota & VW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoIIT0WJS4s
If the computer responds to the input from the brake pedal correctly.
If the current UA is related to cruise control portion of the machine language, the brake pedal that doesn't respond now to cancelling cruise won't respond to cancelling full acceleration for runaway unintended acceleration. :sick:
The brake interlock needs to be superior to the computer's core operation.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I just remembered you had asked me about the air conditioning issue in your Porsche. I am so sorry I forgot. Spoke with my son last night. He has a 2005 911 Turbo 996 Chasis(hope I got this 996 # correct?), and has had no such problems. Works fine and was driving all the time until recently. Engineers are working on a pet project he gave them re: something?
He wasn't quite sure what was happening with your vehicle. Sort of out of his expertise area. But he did say he had heard of no problems, but that didn't mean anything either to him.
Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause
(It was going to be $64,000 dollars, but inflation set in).
The brake override logic that the computer needs to process is: "IF brake is depressed, THEN set engine to idle" regardless of the position of the gas pedal.
If you are experiencing UA, then the computer is hung/frozen/hosed. If the computer is in this state at the time the brake gets depressed, the computer is not going to do anything to bring the engine to idle. That would explain why it also does not respond to a change in shifter position or "engine off" button presses.
YES it makes sense to me that brake-override cannot simply be programmed into some/older models without adding new hardware. The required new hardware could include: flash memory, interface electronics between disparate computers/systems (aka ECMs), and/or additional computers/ECMs.
Redundant computer? Didn't the Apollo spacecraft have 4 computers running one program and a 5th running an entirely different program as a failsafe?
In short, regardless of the position of the accelerator pedal, the amount of RPMs the engine is revving, the speed your going, etc, but hitting the brake pedal, all of that is overriden and the engine drops back to idle and the brakes stop like they normally would.
Later models (say 2004-5 and up, have the capability to be reflahsed with the brake over ride software. Some older models do not (requiring an ECU and/or EPRM replacement) to accept the brake over ride reflash.
Toyota/Lexus is installing brake over ride in the new models coming off the assembly line. They have to do the same for previous models that do not have the brake over fide work around. This is what Toyota is stonewalling, since it would entail another recall. My contention is they should have done it while trying to convince us that "sticky pedals" and floormats were recalled.
My belief is they should do it to every vehicle they've produced since 2004. Anything before that would probably have quite a few miles on them, and could have other safety issues because of wear and tear that have nothing to do with Toyota's failings.
But, the reason Toyota is stonewalling is because they don't want to expend the money for yet another recall. They've already admitted fault by recalling for the alleged sticky pedals/floormats, Prius braking issues (which are more than likely related to their software glitches), cruise control problems, poorly engineered drive shafts in some of their trucks, the Corolla power steering issues....the list just goes on and on.
http://www.toyotaownersonline.com/sscinfo?siteid=too_toyota_recall_vinlookup
if that doesn't work, call Toyota USA (if you are in the USA) and get written confirmation!
1-800-331-4331 Toyota USA!
Just a suggestion
Yes, and it would be a fairly sure bet that they are doing it using a failsafe and foolproof method, certainly not something that can be accolplished via a simple "reflash". My guess would be that they are adding another microprocessor module inside the engine/transaxle controlling ECU "module".
To be really foolproof/failsafe the BTO cannot rely on the original control system processor(s), it MUST be separate and independent in its operation. I would suggest that it continously monitor the brake light switch, the brake fluid pressure sensor level, the throttle plate position sensors, and the EFI PWM dutycycle.
If the brake light switch OR the brake fluid pressure sensor output indicates the brakes are being applied AND the throttle plate is above idle OR the EFI PWM dutycycle is too high THEN open the ground return circuit for the EFI injectors.
"..they should do it it to every vehicle they've produced since 2004.."
As I hope you can now see, that would REQUIRE a swap out, exchange of every engine/transaxle control module.
It's really is unreasonable for Toyota to take on those expenses before a certain and sure determination of base cause is determined.
Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Tuesday his agency may recommend that every new vehicle sold in the U.S. be equipped with brakes that can override the gas pedal."
Government weighs requiring brake overrides (MSNBC)
Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause
(It was going to be $64,000 dollars, but inflation set in).
It's George Bush's fault (if it's still not too late to tag him). Just keep the cash as the answer to this (and any other) problem was just too obvious.
I have not heard of it but I thought all 2009 NA produced Corollas had the CTS pedal...perhaps not. Suggest you call Toyota USA and get the skivvy. Also you should be on the recall list for the corolla Floormat recall yet to take place.
(I am among those that do not think it is the pedal either...But I will follow the Manufacturer's recommendations.... to avoid negligent liability on me, possibility in case of "an incident")
They have been known to screw up from time to time :P ....better safe than sorry!!! If your 09 was recently purchased, it may already have the "shimmy" but I am guessing.
Here is a link to determine if you have a Denso(No recall YET) or CTS pedal if you have not seen it yet...might be of help!
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/exclusive-ttac-takes-apart-both-toyota-gas-peda- - ls/
BTW: what are the 1st 3 digits of your VIN? (a 17 digit number!)
Good Luck with it
Good luck.
If it takes an ECU and/or EPROM swapout plus electronics/software reflash, DO IT.
No price can be put upon the future safety of Toyota vehicles, and of those who encounter those drivers/vehicles on a daily basis....PERIOD!
Questions:
(1)Do we really know how/what Toyota is actually going to do re: brake override?
I now understand the preferred system. Sure didn't when I started posting here. Thanks for the info.