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Comments
I see a lot of talk about the recall repair being a "bust." Has anyone here had a repair done under this recall? Do you feel it worked for you?
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2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
At a maximum, sudden acceleration in Toyotas has led to 34 deaths since 2000 according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, putting it somewhere between slipping in the bathtub and being struck by lightning as a Leading Cause of Death. By way of comparison, roughly 40,000 people die in highway accidents every year. Even if all the Toyota fatalities had occurred in one year, which they didn't, that would represent less than 1/1000 of all automotive fatalities.
If the government were really concerned about safety, they'd address the other 40,000 deaths, but that's not the point. The point is to distract voters and to enrich their union supporters
Btw, not that it matters here but I'm pretty much non-partisan and I also voted for our current president so I have no reason to bash the party I elected. But the intentions with this whole situation are so glaringly obvious, I have lost a great deal of respect and frankly I am insulted by how low these jackholes will go to justify their actions. :sick:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota tried to bury their problems and sold their unsafe products to the world. They are now paying the price and will continue to pay the price with customers who will not jump to buy their products so readily. Toyota, by their own arrogance, has ruined any kind of trust they created with their loyal customers and any potentially new customers.
I apologize if I offended you.
My point was just to mention lots of news reports out there. Lots coming at us, and so difficult to keep up with them.
I too, wish other causes of accidents were being addressed as well. But the "hot issue" now seems to be SUA/UA. Can be good, as maybe this one cause can finally be addressed.
NHTSA has now been raised to possible total of 52 deaths as testified at last hearing, but still need to be investigated further to see if actually is a correct number. Seems like when this all started NHTSA had only one death, and then has steadily gone up. May be related to complaint categoriztion, DHTSA being a voluntary data base, etc. ???
Thank you for letting us know how you see this. Great to see other opinions. I see this coming to be because of the San Diego crash and because driver was CHP officer..And the CHP released 911 tape. That was a heartbreaking tragedy. Four lives lost. Press pressure - story, facts came out regarding the timeline of US/SUA. Human lives were lost and hundreds of accidents possibly linked to SUA/UA exist. Just do not feel the loss of human life can just be disregarded. Numbers are just too high.
As far as the actual numbers of UA/SUA we still don't know for sure. Toyota has many, NHTSA has some, some elsewhere, some never lodged. This is all just voluntary reporting. Studies done from NHTSA is good. Would stats be same if manufacturers legally requited to submit their complaints? I have no idea.
All is legal at present, since law has not been implemented as yet. September 1, 2012 appears to be date so far. Am not sure why it took almost 12 years to become law, when technology has been there all along.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/science/6897637.html
it is an interesting engine in that it has 2 fuel injection systems.
one is the common port injection type and the other is direct injection.
basically, it uses the port injection early on and phases out its' function as the direct injection system takes over. the computer decides how much of the load each system provides.
But what evidence is there that unintended acceleration was behind the crash?
Maybe the driver was talking on his cell phone. Or looking out the window. Or dozed off for a couple of seconds.
The picture alone doesn't address the UA issue.
The last slide titled Toyota Wins, under Defects says "negotiated...no defect found" for Sudden Acceleration saving $100 million. During the hearing, Inaba testified that he was not aware of any claimed savings of $100 million for negotiating a deal with NHTSA.
Internal Toyota Documents Related To Recall
Also he claims he was unaware of $100 million saved re: UA.SUA. - appears is a legal strategy stance approach only. He has long professional background with Toyota. Very difficult to believe him.
And if it could have been another manufacturer if they had hx & higher complaints too. None of them are immune.
Good lesson - have excellent crisis management plan in place.
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Toyota.Electronic.Throttle.Co- ntrol.Investigation.pdf
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Toyota.Electronic.Throttle.Co- ntrol.Investigation.pdf
link title
It would be interesting to see if any of the VW/Audi & BMW complaints ended in crashes. Did their brake override systems work? Mercedes did not have a single complaint. It would seem they have their DBW working right. Maybe Toyota could talk to them and spend some of their $billions on better technology.
Knowing what is happening, or probably happening, might be a LONG way from finding the causative factor(s).
It is interesting to note that Chrysler products get ragged on by quite a few people, but yet in this graphic have a better vehicle than Toyota, Honda or Nissan.
Chrysler vehicles may not be the most sophisticated vehicles or fuel efficient vehicles out there but they are ruggedly built. I own a Jeep Liberty with a diesel and love it.
I agree that your Liberty is a fine vehicle, gas mileage notwithstanding on the petrol models). I do recall however that Jeep met with and implemented Toyotas production methods when it came to setting up the assembly lines to ensure top quality. In doing so the Liberty is one of the higher rated Chryco products for quality and reliability.
When Daimler merged with Chrysler some years ago, it was a big mistake for Chrysler. Daimler raped Chrysler and left them with practically nothing except a little of their, Daimler, DNA.
Chrysler was dumped on Cerebrus as an empty shell of itself and all Cerebrus wanted to do was make money off of Chrysler by selling it for more than it was worth and not make money by improving Chrysler itself.
As to quality of assembly, my Liberty is as tight as a drum. No squeaks or rattles anywhere even on the worst of roads or off roads. The fit and finish are still first class in spite of five years of D.C. traffic and D.C. weather.
Agreed, but that was not my point of saying "..too obvious for the experts to be missing it..."
1. If we have experts doing extensive research on whether the ECM can detect a faulty sensor, that tells me that their initial hypothesis of "what is probably happening" is wrong and not based on evidence right in front of them. Those mistakes only mean it will take longer than necessary to get to the causative factor.
2. If there are Toyota models that already have brake override programmed-in that are experiencing SUA (e.g. Prius), why would anyone accept the claim, even for one minute, that installing brake override in other models is a fail-safe just in case the problem is not really the pedals?
Part of my job includes investigating software bugs that can cause malfunctions analogous to these, just not in autos. They can be nasty to get to the bottom of even when it is happening on a computer that is "sitting still". Faced with figuring it out when it is happening to a computer careening at over 100 mph creates a greater challenge. On one hand I can sympathize with how difficult this is, but once lied to, my sympathy fades quickly.
I had a similar feeling about the obvious being overlooked during the hearings. The early highlights were the testimony of a Lexus ES350 owner experiencing SUA and the grilling of the NHTSA chief about why they did not put two-and-two together sooner. Then, did even one congress-person put two-and-two together and ask Toyoda why no Lexus models were included in the actions taken against the Toyota models (freeze sales, recall)? There were people driving away in their new brand new ES350's the whole time. Toyota models are one thing, but how much worse it would be for Toyota if they tarnished Lexus' reputation by including them?
Now they're spending money on advertising to counter what they want the question to be and not what is actually the question.
What's important is the behind the scenes things that happen to affect how other sources will portray toyota to the stakeholders in this fiasco. Buy a little influence here; buy a little there. Soon all these sources will be telling the US buyer how great and how safe the cars are. People won't know about the backroom dealing that bought the frontline statements. Sort of like DC buying influence with money to Nebraska or giving a judgeship to a reluctant legislator's relative.
Yesterday the news was about cars with the faux fixes having UIA. Today toyo's telling us about how the cars a failsafe. :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What kind of coverup is VW participating in? Or have they been reporting all UIA events. Do their dealers document all complaints?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Do you have a link or source to back that up? Or is it just a gut feeling and or wishful thinking. I would love to see that data. One of the biggest Toyota fans on the thread posted the top 117 vehicles with UA complaints. No VW or Audi in the bunch. Lexus held down 4 of the ten WORST. None with CTS throttles to blame on a US manufacturer. All made outside the US of A.
I posed a question to bloggers if they had problems with Toyota writing down their complaints when serviced. Immediately there were two that did. Twice they did not write my complaints on my work order, and was not on completed order when paid. Not sure if this is an issue or not.
Why wouldn't they make note of a problem when described to them by a customer? I can find not one good reason for it other than they were told not to write certain types of problems thus not creating a history of that particular problem. One of the ways to get the manufacturer to buyback a vehicle is through the state's lemon law. It has to be documented that the manufacturer/dealer had three opportunities to fix a safety related problem. If they cannot repair it within three attempts they are required to buyback the vehicle under the lemon law.
So no record no lemon law no buyback. Sneaky sneaky sneaky.
Based upon my experience with Toyotas, I purchased a 2008 Toyota Avalon Limited and now have 24,000 miles on it without a repair or a complaint. It is the best car that I have ever owned or driven. I recently received a call back to repair the accelerator pedal, the driver's side all weather floor mat and the VVT-i Oil Hose that has been reported to break and leak the oil out of the car. I am disappointed that these things have occurred, but I am hopeful that corrections will be made and my car will run as well as it is running today. Call backs are not a new phenomenon and have occurred with most if not all car manufacturers. This is a wake up call to all car manufacturers and their workers to put out a better product or their jobs are on the line.
Sources:
1
2
By using the data above, I can conclude that VW has twice as many complaints about unintended acceleration than Toyota in 2009. Toyota's getting crucified for something that isn't particularly uncommon or unusual. Similar to Audi 5000, where ALL UA on Audi 5000 complaints and deaths are drivers' error. Not suprising due to US law system, sue and blame the other!
Sources:
1
2
Many of you likely have Toyota owners and potential customers coming into your store because of Toyota’s Unintended Acceleration recalls. Many may worry there’s something more than floor mats and “sticky” pedals. And you probably would like to be able to show them proof that Kia vehicles indeed have better designed Electronic Throttle Controls than Toyota. Well, here’s how, just in time for Toyota‘s new sales blitz..
First, print Dr. Gilbert’s testimony to Congress from here:
energycommerce house gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf
Note I took out the hyper text protocol indicator and replaced the dots with spaces, so add those back.
Next, print out the Toyota recall procedure from here:
images thetruthaboutcars com/2010/02/Tech-Instructions-Preliminary-Posting-BIL.pdf
Don’t forget to add the http and periods back.
You’ll want to highlight in Dr. Gilbert’s statement where he said he shorted the sensor leads together without any trouble code being set, and where he said he then connected those two leads to 5V reference voltage and produced WOT acceleration with no DTC/MIL. On the recall procedure, you’ll see the system acceptable voltages on pages 8 and 9. You’ll want to point out two things: At WOT, the two sensor voltages can in fact overlap. And that full system reference voltage is a valid input and wouldn’t set a DTC. Just like Dr. Gilbert’s tests found! It looks like 5V on side 1 might set a code, but the tests indicated that’s not the case, not surprising since there’s only a 10% difference anyway.
Next, you’ll want to print the system description and specs from the Shop Manual for your car. CAUTION: not every car in the line-up has ETC.
CAUTION: I’m basing what follows on the Hyundai Azera manual. I cannot fathom that Kia’s system differs, but be sure to verify this. If anyone finds any discrepancies, PLEASE let me know.
I found it under Fuel System>Engine Control System>Accelerator Position System. The system description and specs clearly show that this system uses resistors to do two things: Choke the maximum voltage on side 1 to 4.35V, so the system can detect a short to reference. And on side two, voltage is choked to 50% of side one. So if a foreign voltage was introduced or somehow induced in the sensor leads, the ECU would know that since it’s ALWAYS looking for side one to be twice the value of side two or a code will be set!
Remember, this isn’t taking advantage of Toyota’s misfortune. This is a key safety feature that Toyota lacks, just like Active Head Restraints on some of their cars. Remember too that Toyota has avoided warranty claims for repairs on cars that have had UA and likely has avoided costs on cars that might have otherwise experienced MIL for transitory electrical events. Plus they’ve likely avoided negative survey responses on “Check Engine Light”/MIL. Whether or not this design is the root cause of Toyota’s UA claims, it’s still obvious Kia took extra caution and designed extra safety features in that Toyota didn’t.
I think Toyota's as guilty as all hell. Period. See ya and I really wouldn't wanna be ya Toyota.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The second study found Toyota did have the highest SUA/UA complaints. Ford came in second, etc.
The first study which was a long study found Toyota 17th.
I consider the second study more informative as it tells you how manufacturer is doing more recently.
Good to see this report for 2009 models only. There would be other reports though. THIS REPORT IS FOR ONLY 2009 MODELS. COMPLAINTS OF OTHER YEAR MODELS WOULD HAVE EXISTED FOR 2009 ALSO.
So one fulty aspect to this study does exist. Only 2009 model study done. All other year models not counted. Why was this study pushed??? That is good question??
Just food for thought.
On my 5000 mile first service I took a list of 11 complaints to the dealer. He typed them all into the computer while I stood there. When they were done he explained why they did not do anything about 9 of the items. When I got my paper work all it showed was the oil change and service. One of the things they claimed they did was not what I asked. I wanted all my tires brought up to 36 lbs. I guess it was too much trouble to also pump up the spare to keep the TPMS light from coming on. So when I checked them the next day they were still at 32 lbs. I finally crawled under and brought the spare up to 36 along with the rest of the tires.
Next time I went in I told them the tailgate still did not go up when it was below 45 degrees. They had no record of that being addressed on my previous visit. I quit using them for Service. I used a dealer in Indiana on our long trip to do the 15k mile service. Pretty much the same lame excuses for the tailgate and high priced oil change.
I got Walmart to do my 20k mile service. Using Mobil1 synthetic it cost the same as Toyota oil change with dino oil. Toyota wanted $125 for an off brand synthetic oil change. I will only use the dealers for warranty which I did buy the 7 year platinum $0 deductible plan. Still have those issues which they seem useless to fix. I wonder if my hitting my head on the tailgate when it does not go all the way up is a safety issue? I guess I need to talk to my Congressman, while they have Toyota on the hotseat.
Toyo will lame you for being too tall or misusing the tailgate. Typical of US buyers so it will be your fault.
I just sliced a part of my fingertip off on the dryer lip for our Cabrio Whirlpool. I think I'll register a complain. But at least the computer in it doesn't run away with unintended drying and it responds to the OFF button.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And in the other years, how do they compare?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,