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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I would have commented on your post if I had any idea of what you are talking about.Not your fault,I just don't understand the terminology.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2010
    22-30 minutes of recording, exact time of day specific recording...?

    No way...!!

    I agree, that it is part of the deception by Toyota. Who can argue when they claim the ECM recorded 250 times the brake was hit. Very convenient for their case against Sikes.

    James Sikes may well be a con artist. I think he has met his match with Toyota.
  • dookie84dookie84 Member Posts: 33
    My 2010 Camry has a very touchy accelerator. If I press down like I would with any other car - including my 92 Camry - the car kind of lurches forward. I have to sort of tap it/baby it to get it to start smoothly from a full stop. Should I be worried or is this "the way the car drives." :(
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    Curious where you got the information about where the data is stored. I must have missed that along the way.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2010
    Here from the Toyota newsroom:

    The hybrid self-diagnostic system did show evidence of numerous, rapidly repeated on-and- off applications of both the accelerator and the brake pedals.

    http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-offers-preliminary-findings-155- - 268.aspx

    From an ABC interview this correction of that newsroom statement:

    After the press conference, however, a Toyota representative confirmed to ABC News that the electronic data did not show how hard the brake was being pressed. "The level of brake application is not recorded," said Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons, "only that the brakes were completely released and applied."

    Lyons also clarified Michels statement about the number of times Sikes must have hit the brakes and the accelerator. He said that the data showed that Sikes pressed and released the brakes 254 times, and did not show Sikes pressing on the accelerator, only that the throttle remained open throughout the incident.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/hed-runaway-toyota-prius-driver-thought-die-dek/st- ory?id=10114198&page=2
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    Gagrice, thanks for the interesting post. I disagree with shorting Toyo stock, but could be wrong.
    1) They are highly capitalized and have lots of borrowing power if necessary. Also, they are the pride of Japan, and would probably get financial support from the govt. if it came to that.
    2) There are many, many thousands of satisfied customers.
    3) Their sales have been up recently, in spite of the bad PR and how badly they have screwed things up. Multiply your monthly payment times the number of months and see how much you save with the 0% financing and rebates.
    4) I sort of agree with the Pinto comment, but who's number one of U.S. manufacturers today? Ford, of course.
    5) The truth will come out in the trials, if not sooner.
    6) Government won't ban electronic controls, because they greatly increase fuel efficiency and safety and would kill all the manufacturers, and the hybrids won't even work without it. No chance.
    7) I took my Avalon Limited in today for recall repairs and a new battery. Cost me about $120 for a 60 month battery. This car is very close to a Lexus, yet I pay Toyo prices for service instead of Lexus prices. A friend of mine took his BMW roadster in for a new battery and it cost him $750! (He got so mad he sold the car!) So I'm a very happy camper with my Avalon. With 60,000 miles it has had only brakes, one tire, wheel alignment and the battery. Runs like new. Great gas mileage.
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    Thanks, but I still don't see it. The first article simply says "The hybrid self-diagnostic system did show evidence of numerous, rapidly repeated...". The second says "a reading of electronic data from Sikes' car showed that he had applied the brakes and the accelerator alternately...". Both of those could be referring to EDR data. If you have any references to the contrary I would be very interested.

    The only technical descriptions I have seen of where these cars store data about a "sequence of events" is in the EDR buffer. I do not believe any sequence data is stored in a control module other than transient data in volatile memory being used by executing software. There may be error codes stored there, but that is not the data Toyota is pointing to. If there is only 150ms worth of sequence data in the EDR, that would explain why Toyota refrained from mentioning any span of time.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    "Honesty levels:

    Military recruiters = car salesman = Toyota at the beginning of this issue."

    When I joined the Marines, they were 100% truthful. They said they were going to kick our asses all over the place and make men out of us, and that's exactly what they did!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,304
    edited March 2010
    it is possible for owners of other vehicle brands to like their cars too.
    just because someone gets taken to the cleaners for a new battery doesn't mean the car is bad.
    blame the dealer or the lazy owner. changing a battery is an easy job.
    i rate it a little tougher than making a grilled cheese sandwich. ;)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have been following the Prius since the first one was delivered in San Diego. I test drove it twice and thought it was kind of cool. I slowly lost interest in the hybrids when too many little things cropped up. There have been multiple reports here of UA with the Prius. This is the first time I have ever heard of Toyota having a place that stores information about brakes and accelerator being depressed over a long period of time. You are right the EDR has a very short snippet when the airbags are deployed. I am not convinced of the 250+ brake depressions. No time stamp, just out of the blue data we are supposed to believe because Toyota says it is true. They have lied before why believe them now?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    edited March 2010
    >No time stamp, just out of the blue data we are supposed to believe because Toyota says it is true

    This is most likely a case of people misusing statistics to try to make toyota-lexus look good and blame the driver Sikes. I will bet, if my data recorder in my leSabre keeps records, that it will show I have pressed the brake in my 03 Buick 255 times. With no time record on when each press occurred, it's meaningless data.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    Actually that is not quite what is meant by no time stamp. Once triggered, the EDR records changes in the car's velocity at specific time intervals until the buffer is full (for example every 1ms), not the time of day. It does not record "brake presses" but only reductions or increases in velocity that could imply brake or gas pedal presses. Some newer EDRs store more than 150ms, for example the new Chevy Malibu stores up to 300ms. The start of recording is triggered by a predetermined level of change in velocity. It does not need to be enough to trigger airbag deployment. Once triggered, the EDR will record a full buffer (all 150ms or 300ms worth) of measurements at it's designed interval and then stops. If the airbag did deploy, the EDR cannot overwrite the data it has recorded. If the airbag did not deploy, no reset is needed and the EDR can store a new buffer of data if it happens again.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >Once triggered, the EDR records changes in the car's velocity

    Whoa. The toyota-lexus folk indicated this showed the BRAKE had been depressed. Initially they said the brake and accelerator pedal alternated. You may be talking about the actual EDR for the auto. This record comes from an alleged recorder on the brake/electrical system for the Prius.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2010
    If the EDR is only capable of holding 150-300ms of data, not much change can be recorded. It could tell if the throttle is depressed or the brake is depressed. Maybe if both are depressed. With the average reaction time of a human being about 200ms, not much is recorded in the EDR. My understanding is nothing is stored in the EDR on a Toyota unless the airbags are deployed. That would mean at the time of impact, it saves 150ms of data. So that would not be used in the runaway Prius. According to Toyota the EDR in the ES350 that killed 4 people here was not readable.

    So the question is this? Where is this non volatile data stored in the Prius, showing 254 depressions of the brake while the throttle was WO? If this has been available in the Prius for several years why was it not used in other cases of SUA? Or are the dealers directed by Corporate to reset that memory when someone claims their Prius experienced SUA?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "They have lied before why believe them now? "

    Just because you told a lie once in your life makes you a liar, forever, never again to be believed?

    No.
  • zigster38zigster38 Member Posts: 117
    I think the bottom line is that Toyota has denied problems that have occurred in the past, and no one believes them now. As someone who has worked in a large corporation, the legal dept. just wants you to deny, deny, deny until they go to court or the case is dropped.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    That might be true in some private companies and probably is a standard procedure in many.

    But there are outside interests involved here, like Congress, NHTSA, plaintiff lawyers, etc.

    Toyota KNOWS they cannot lie any longer, and that lying at this point is just idiotic.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Hiding the truth, say deep inside NipponDenso in Japan, is not the same as lying. At least insofar as US courts are concerned.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You have a point. It is not considered lying until you got caught under oath. Like Toyota did in the Congressional hearings. An example when Inaba denied his role in saving $100 million by somehow getting the NHTSA to drop their investigation into UA back in 2007.

    A month after Inaba’s presentation, in which he boasted Toyota saving $100 million over a full recall, a family of four were killed in a Lexus involving a stuck gas pedal under a floor mat. In November 2009, Toyota eventually issued a full recall on the issue to prevent further incidents.

    Toyota will continue to lie and deceive even if they are caught and prosecuted in criminal court. And who ever takes the fall will do it out of loyalty to Toyota and Japan. It is the culture.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited March 2010
    Gary says, "Toyota will continue to lie and deceive even if they are caught and prosecuted in criminal court. And who ever takes the fall will do it out of loyalty to Toyota and Japan. It is the culture."

    Oh, Puh-Leeze. Culture Schmulture.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Larsb you are showing your short memory. Toyota was tried in Japanese court for lying about the suspension problem in their PU trucks a few years ago. They did not learn their lesson and are doing the same thing with UA. Only the faithful will agree with you on this one.

    After at least 34 Toyota sudden acceleration deaths, attempts to cover up the sudden acceleration problem since 1986, and lie after lie after lie, USA Today has reported that Toyota may face criminal charges stemming from its handling of the sudden unintended acceleration problem.

    Now we're learning that car makers like Toyota instruct their engineers and designers to cover up and destroy evidence to avoid potential criminal charges. I would normally say such conduct is unbelievable, but I've learned too much already about Toyota's culture of deception and history of safety cover-ups.

    http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/automobile-accidents/toyota-recall-are-crimina- l-charges-against-toyota-coming-next.aspx?googleid=279272
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary are you serious quoting me a LAWYER BLOG accusing Toyota of lying?

    Seriously?

    Pot, meet kettle !!!
  • annanycannanyc Member Posts: 4
    Does anyone recommend buying a Rav4 now? Is the problem fixed?
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    Is Reuters reputable enough for you?

    "This is a company that doesn't have any respect for the laws in the United States," Biller said in a telephone interview. "This is a company that has no qualms about violating court orders, concealing or destroying evidence. That's not just me saying that," he added. "The documents I have say that, the documents I have prove that."

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6144AP20100205
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    With other options available, why gamble? For example, the new Equinox is a fresher design than the dated Rav4, gets better mileage and has a better warranty for a competitive price. You should broaden your horizons.
  • skiguy02920skiguy02920 Member Posts: 11
    so, per msn, toyota now says 'if we use the shim and you're not satisfied, come back and we'll replace the whole assembly'. have owned ONLY toyotas for 10 years, now have tacoma, corolla and highlander. I take the corolla into the dealership and let them know that I will NOT be satisfied with the 'shim fix' and request the replacement assembly. they say no, it is a two trip deal. I tell them that is fine, I will make ONE trip and then never buy from them another toyota (going on 7 from same dealer). am betting that I get what I want. thoughts? skiguy
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Before I would buy any new vehicle I would make sure NipponDenso (Toyota's firmware resource) or Denso US did not supply any of the engine or braking firmware.
  • mnfmnf Member Posts: 405
    You just described some of our Government officials scary :surprise:
  • jeffm5jeffm5 Member Posts: 123
    I'd also recommend a Subaru Forester or Outback. I've had 2 Foresters & I bought an Outback in the fall. All have been trouble free. I've also had 3 Toyotas, including my current ride, an 05 Avy, which is the best car I've ever owned. But, my confidence in Toyota as a corporation has been shaken.
  • DON__FLORIDADON__FLORIDA Member Posts: 14
    To: annanyc We just bought a new 2010 RAV4. We were told it was not under the recall because the VIN # started with a J which meant it was made in Japan. I tried to verify this and it appears to be true. I hope so. Happy with it so far.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Quoting ANOTHER LAWYER......???

    (sigh)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How can you distrust lawyers, when you believe what our President and Congress and their appointed agencies tell US? They are almost ALL lawyers. Do you think that Toyota does ANYTHING without consulting a lawyer? Didn't the Toyota people at the hearings surround themselves with lawyers? If lawyers are not to be trusted, then Toyota is not to be trusted. Can't have it both ways.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "...when you believe what our President and Congress and their appointed agencies tell US?"

    First of all, not true. I don't blindly believe everything Congress and the Prez tells us - especially the current Prez.

    Lawyers in general don't bother me. Lawyers "in the act of lawyering" is what bothers me.

    Any lawyer with a paid cause can say anything they want. Getting a lawyer to talk bad or good about Toyota has no affect on my views. Both sides will always have a lawyer.

    What I trust is common sense and instincts. And common sense and my instincts tell me that no automaker would put millions of fatally flawed cars on the road, WILLINGLY KNOWING THEY WERE DEATH TRAPS.

    That just didn't happen. No way, no how.

    If it does turn up that Toyota has some sort of flaw in their electronics, at no point did any engineers say, "Um, boss there is a problem with the electronics that makes the car dangerous to drive" and have the boss say, "I don't care - ship it like that anyway."

    That's ridiculous to think anyone would do that.
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    With one significant difference. This guy was Toyota's own U.S. council and has thousands of documents such as the one below that back up what he says.

    This is Inaba's own slide deck from only 7 months prior to the hearings. The last slide titled Toyota Wins, under Defects says "negotiated equipment recall...saved $100M+, w/ no defect found" for Sudden Acceleration.

    During the hearing, Inaba testified that he was not aware of any claimed savings of $100 million for negotiating a deal.

    http://llnw.static.cbslocal.com/station/national/docs/2010/02/YoshiInabaPresenta- tionSafetyWins2.pdf
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    This is interesting study. Click on video presentation. Can review corporation background, etc from tabs available.

    http://www.quality-control.us/toyota_sudden_acceleration.html
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Yes, he did work for Toyota until they fired him. Disgruntled former employee.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2010
    I think if you do research, you will find that Biller quit and was not fired. His disgust for Toyota is based on their practices of deception and destruction of evidence. If Toyota's lying and deception was hard for an attorney to stomach, it should be very difficult for an average citizen. Congress was not at all happy with the evidence Biller brought about Toyota.

    Toyota deliberately withheld key evidence during litigation over vehicle safety, according to a Congressional review of documents obtained from a former top Toyota lawyer turned whistleblower.

    The documents were obtained under subpoena from ex-Toyota attorney Dimitrios Biller by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, which this week held a hearing investigating Toyota's alleged sudden acceleration problems.

    According to committee chair Rep. Edolphus Towns, D.-N.Y., "the Biller documents indicate a systematic disregard for the law and routine violation of court discovery orders in litigation."

    The committee's findings support claims made by Biller in an exclusive on-camera interview with ABC News earlier this month. Biller alleged that the company withheld evidence of safety problems from plaintiffs' lawyers and regulators.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/congress-blasts-toyota-withholding-- - key-evidence-secret-books/story?id=9957579
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    Interesting article from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

    http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/03/19/2052984/how-toyota-can-hurt-the-media.ht- ml
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,304
    the author may be correct, but just commenting on the resale values, no mention was made of volume, which is a pretty big deal.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Member Posts: 77
    With the mountain of evidence he has of Toyota's wrongdoing, they are probably more disgruntled that he is.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/GILBERT-Evaluation_of_the_Gilbert_De- monstration_1_.pdf

    From Exponents document, above...

    "..Figure 1. A 200 ohm resistor is apparently placed between the output signals of the two pedal position sensors...."

    Note the word "apparently"....??!!

    I had assumed that the "short" Dr. Gilbert placed across the two sensor signals had just enough resistance, accidental and unintentionally, that a voltage difference greater than the monitoring system was checking for, 0.020 volts (only 20 millivolts), remained between the two signals.

    I think that what Exponent is saying here is that in order to replicate Dr. Gilbert's experiment BUT NOT trigger the monitor they had to use a 200 ohm "short" between the two sensors. 200 ohms is well above any accidental or unintentional resistance I would have assumed.

    Given that the two sensor output voltages should ALWAYS be displaced by at least 0.80 volts (factory document), using a difference voltage as low as 20 millivolts is unreasonable if one wishes to truly detect short between the two sensors.

    Apparently (there's that word again) Exponent assumed a 200 ohm short since that's the resistance they had to use in order to NOT to trigger the firmware monitoring test.

    From Exponent, again.

    "..To bypass setting the DTC code on the 2007 Camry Exponent slightly modified the parameters of Dr. Gilbert's demonstration...."

    "...By carefully engineering the modification.."

    Carefully engineering the modification...

    Yes, using empirical engineering methods to select a shorting resistance that provided "just enough" signal shorting to still allow a voltage difference above the detection threshold.

    In other words the 200 ohm resistor wasn't small enough, low enough in resistance, to "fool" the 2007 Camry's firmware sensor monitoring system, so Exponent chose another value.

    First they "ASSUME" Dr. gilbert used a 200 ohm resistor with absolutely no evidence of that (granted, either way), now they modify their own assumption to fit the new case.

    And yes, you can "short" the two signals together with just enough resistance to still remain above the minimum voltage difference detectable by the monitoring firmware. And now, if you wish, provided you carefully select the resistance of the "short", connect the one sensor to the 5 volt reference to create a runaway engine "without" setting a DTC.

    Or, if you like, you could short the one sensor to a reference voltage right at the maximum of the normal operating range, the engine would go WOT, but no DTC would be set.

    "...Exponent was able to rewire the pedal sensors and achieve engine revving without setting a DTC...."

    Yes, so could anyone, by empirically selecting the shorting resistance.

    And finally:

    "...Exponent also evaluated how vehicles made by other manufacturers would respond to the same rewiring that Dr. Gilbert showed in his demonstration. Every vehicle from other manufacturers tested by Exponent could be induced to respond with a sudden increase in engine speed and power output, although the parameters of the rewiring changed slightly from vehicle to vehicle. These demonstrations in no way indicate a defect with any of the vehicles tested (including the Toyota and Camry)..."

    ...although the parameters of the rewiring changed slightly...

    NO SHxx, SHINOLA..!!

    ....no way indicate a defect with any of the vehicles...

    Avoiding a public REBUTTAL by other manufacturers, "this".

    But I still find myself puzzled that this worked, so far...
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Did you actually write this,or is this a copy and paste? Unless you're an electrical engineer,you may as well write it in Chinese.
    I think you're saying that this test proved nothing.Is that right?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The whole Exponent show was not to learn about Toyota's UA problem. It was designed to discredit Dr Gilbert. Someone I believe was a Toyota fan until this all came down. He offered his findings to Toyota before he went to the Media. I think Kane saw in Gilbert a good expert witness that knows about these systems. Probably better than anyone at Exponent. He could be a valuable asset in the many lawsuits pending against Toyota. Toyota may regret not listening to him when first offered the opportunity.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Exponents "testing" only proved that they are willing to prostitute their engineering "expertise".
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    wwest, I couldn't understand your post very well. Too technical for me.
    "Exponents "testing" only proved that they are willing to prostitute their engineering "expertise."

    By "they" do you mean Toyo or the plaintiffs' lawyers and Gilbert?
    Thanks, and I appreciate your posts!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Exponent = PROSTITUTES.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Now, now, it's more like putting the available facts forward in the best light for your client.

    It's how the system works, at least the legal part of it.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Now, now, it's more like putting the available facts forward in the best light for your client.

    If that were the case, I'd agree. Seems however that Exponent's testing did nothing to confirm the good doctor's theory, rather conjured up parameters of their own and posted the results as if to discredit the good doctor knowing full well that the average consumer wouldn't be able to understand exactly what they did.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Are we talking attorneys or Exponent...??
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Member Posts: 54
    March 25, 2010, 3:14 pm
    Toyota Creates Quality Task Force
    By RICHARD S. CHANG

    Toyota, which has been making a variety of moves after its recalls associated with sudden unintended acceleration in its vehicles, has created a new North American task force charged with improving vehicle quality issues.

    The team will be led by Steve St. Angelo, executive vice president of Toyota engineering and manufacturing in North America, and meet once a month with Toyota’s president, Akio Toyoda, starting on Tuesday.

    Last month, Toyota created the Special Committee for Global Quality. Headed by Mr. Toyoda, the committee established a six-point action plan to improve quality and customer service, and increase regional autonomy that would allow Toyota’s subsidiaries more control over their own quality issues. On Tuesday, Toyota announced that Didier LeRoy would become chief quality officer for the European region.

    “We are making fundamental changes in the way our company operates in order to ensure that Toyota sets an even higher standard for vehicle safety and reliability, responsiveness to customers and transparency with regulators,” said Mr. St. Angelo in a statement. “In keeping with Akio Toyoda’s mandate, North America will have greater autonomy and play a critical role in decision making on recalls and other safety issues.”
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