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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253
    In theory, i agree about the test, but it would be insanity to try.
    you would have to find a 'safe' place to test and the car is not built to withstand anything that might go wrong at that speed. probably very few cars are.
    Maybe if it could be done remotely, no human driver.
    60 mph does not stress the system enough to figure out what would happen at double that speed.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    99% of Toyota owners have no problem... And the media projects the 1% and forgets about the remaining 90 %

    There is some Schadenfreude going on (Toyotafreude?).

    And it's sort of like the forums; lots of the discussions are populated by people searching for a solution to their car problem. It's hard to get the average Josephine to log in and talk about her car that's running normally.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    I hate to have to admit it, but I have a 2009 Toyota Camry sitting in my garage that has not moved since January. I am still hoping Toyota will be required to offer a buy-back. I cannot even sell it outright without taking a major loss.

    My first and last Toyota...BIG mistake I made.

    And you?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253
    it more like Schadentoyota.(Schade = sad, Freude = joy)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • spartanman2spartanman2 Member Posts: 61
    "Don't worry. Toyota will be back soon".???

    I would be VERY worried Toyota fans. This is not going away quickly.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Doesn't Schaden Toyota sell cars in Bergen NJ?

    I dunno, I got D's in German. :P

    Spitzerfreude tried to gain some traction when Elliot got hammered but it doesn't have the cachet of a gate.

    But ToyotaGate doesn't have much of a ring to it either. They could just say Mission Accomplished and call it a day.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I was hoping it would get tested on a track somewhere. CR made a half way attempt that was meaningless. As WWest pointed out going into neutral with the engine at WOT may not happen in a DBW system. The question has bugged me since the accident. Why didn't he take it out of gear? So far none of the agencies or parties have done a legitimate test to prove one way or the other if it would go into neutral at full throttle full torque. Toyota Lexus may know and are not saying.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    "Don't worry. Toyota will be back soon with another recall" is what worries me, but this time the electronics to finally address the problem, however, the recall will be MUCH broader.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "I am still hoping Toyota will be required to offer a buy-back."

    no amount of engineering can relieve people of their fears, especially if such fears are unfounded or unrealistic.

    there is risk in anything, including nothing. the only way for anyone to NOT take risk is to NOT live.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253
    A lot of Toyota buyers are risk averse people. That's why they bought a Toyota! :surprise:
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "So far none of the agencies or parties have done a legitimate test to prove one way or the other if it would go into neutral at full throttle full torque."

    because of their interest in Government Motors and UAW.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253
    My mother is German, I couldn't get away with a 'D'. :)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253
    I have posted in the past, the same sort of comment, but maybe 'T' was getting a free pass before that? You know back when the government was anti D3 up to a year ago, or so?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    I am not sure why other auto manufacturers that have higher issue than the others too, have escaped news. Toyota publicity and issues may make them self correct their own issues with unexplained acceleration. Does appear other auto manufacturers laying low. Am I wrong??

    Oh how I wish Toyota would just announce something really good. For example - for all the owners that may have/could have a problem. That would give them full control of recall.

    They are #1, had good reliability ratings until several rating agencies just pulled recommendations, etc. It appears, multiple rental car agencies won't even rent Toyotas due safety risk liability issues etc per new articles.

    I have a RAV4 and of course I am pulling for Toyota. But I attempt to be objective, research, try to educate myself, etc. I say Toyota please get a lid on all of this.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >It's hard to get the average Josephine to log in and talk about her car that's running normally.

    Is that also true in the GM world and forum?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >As WWest pointed out going into neutral with the engine at WOT may not happen in a DBW system.

    Will it happen in a system with a mechanical link to the transmission? wwest implied the toyota products are connected by wire to the transmission.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    > Toyota will be back soon with another recall" is what worries me, but this time the electronics to finally address the problem, however, the recall will be MUCH broader.

    That's what I see coming. Too many sources are chiming in with my original thinking that it's computer related for it not to happen. And the scientific method indicates that some of the reported cases fit with a floor mat improperly used or not fitting. Some cases reported fit with a sticking pedal, relucatant to return to idle. But many cases don't fit either.

    And then there's the question that a few have reported the brakes didn't work, some in relation to the full or near full throttle acceleration, but at least one reported the brakes just didn't work on a Rav-4 IIRC the model correctly. Odd things happening to braking could also be computer-related as in ABS and stability control systems.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253
    lots of people think that adding the 'brake overrides the throttle' is an easy fix, just reflash the computer.
    consider this. computers have a finite design. there has to be 'room' in it to add the additional 'brake overrides the throttle' logic.
    if not, something else has to be removed or you need a new computer.
    another, and probably larger issue that needs to be considered, is all the engine/transmission/emissions/other tied in systems, that need to accept this 'brake overrides throttle' addition without any detrimental effects to how they were designed to operate.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    My RAV4 will shift into neutral going uphill at 60mph. Did it in recent check. Engine was working as it was climbing Waldo Grade I 101 just before Golden Gate Bridge. Went right into neutral. Quickly put back into overdrive, but it did work. The 4 cylinder engine is what many would say "[non-permissible content removed] cat" for any power. Putting into neutral seemed to be first thing my son too, wanted me to check???

    Yeah - I get 29mph freeway driving.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    there is risk in anything, including nothing. the only way for anyone to NOT take risk is to NOT live.

    Uh, ok. Now back to Toyota...and when an automaker has a problem with their vehicles, they have a responsibility.

    - First, it was complete denial of any responsibility.
    - Second, came the reason of it was the driver's fault.
    - Third, came the famous floor mats.
    - Fourth, the famous pedals (even the pedals were blamed when they were not even involved.
    - Fifth and hopefully finally will be the electronic throttle systems which would explain the ongoing problem now for over 5 years.

    Come Toyota, how humiliating you want this to get before enough is enough?

    And here I thought the floor mat fix was suppose to end this fiasco. :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    This just gets more interesting by the hour.

    I am placing my bets on yet for another massive Toyota recall by next week:

    Getting Toyota to recall took "enormous effort"

    And here I thought the official word was by many on here that Toyota issued the recall solely in the interest of the consumer because they care so much about their customers???? :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I don't have any numbers but it seems that it's human nature to log on and complain, whether it's GM or GAZ, Toyota or Tata.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    To elaborate on that just a bit...

    Yes, the engine/transaxle controlling ECU(***1) might not be paying attention to the shifter position switches and/or does not issue the appropriate command set to the transaxle itself.

    But, also...

    There may be so much torque applied(***2) to the gear teeth of the transaxle's drum type clutch discs that they do not return to the "slack", de-clutched, position even thought the hydraulic pressure has been removed.

    ***1.) ECU, Electronic Control Unit, most commonly a microprocessor or two, or three, or even four.

    ***2.) The engine is ROARING with WOT, doing its damndest to RACE those front wheels and at the same time the brakes are being applied as strenuously as the driver can muster. Lots of PRESSURE on those clutch disc gear teeth to keep them in place, not un-coupled.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    I don't think Toyota was legally required to stop selling anything.

    Until there is a proven problem, and proven to be Toyota's responsibility, I don't see that our goverment could force anything. Our government asked Toyota to with hold the products from the market and as I see it Toyota "voluntarily" agreed.


    Voluntarily???? Well, we now learn that was definitely not the case. Getting Toyota to recall took "enormous effort"
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Brake override system would have to be developed by
    Toyota taking all you mentioned into consideration. My son does development/engineering auto software. Once developed cost for Toyota would be fairly low since they own the computer programs. Toyota does not have to buy each program. Buying these programs from the corporate business owner of programs + then the increased cost dealer installing charges + cost flashing is where additional costs are passed onto consumer. Overhead costs to corporate business owner quite low for each year - say 2010.

    Since I have vehicle that is not one of recall models I will be asking if brake override system is available.

    To everyone - yes - I am cautious. Smile - RN.
  • jdm9jdm9 Member Posts: 38
    My questions are simple , if its electronic and not a mechanical problem, do you think that 1. shifting to nuetral will disengage the transmission and allow you to use your brakes unimpeded except for the high revs. or 2. Turning the key back one notch to shut off the ignition but still allowing hard steering and brakes, will be the effective way to handle it (electronic) if it happens or 3. Does the computer controller that causes the acceleration (if it is electronic and not as Toyota is claiming mechanical) also, not allow you to do point 1 and 2 above. Even if its electronic and it happens and you can just do point 1 or 2 above, and safely pull over and come to a stop, it doesnt seem quite so bad. However If that computer does not allow you to do either of point 1 or 2 above , then it is very scary indeed and Toyota would appear to have stepped smack dab in the middle of a big fat cow pie. It appears to me that others have addresed this but no one has so far posted much of an an answer. Simulation of an unexpected/unexplained/electronic event may be impossible to duplicate but having experienced, mechanical, sudden accelerations on 2 or more occassions, (once I figured out how to duplicate it , it was great fun and made for great pranks on unsuspecting freinds , this was 35 years plus ago in a 67 Meteor, excuse the digression) as long as you dont panic, and you arent in the left lane of the freeway, you should hopefully be able to safely pull over. The electronic version however could be a totally different situation that Toyota has so far refused to acknowledge or even comment on. That is somewhat troubling and as the minutes go by and their refusal to address the possibilty goes on longer I think they are just digging a deeper hole for themselves. Comments please, other than on my sick sense of humor in my youth.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My RAV4 will shift into neutral going uphill at 60mph.

    Did you have your foot down on full throttle accelerating or had you let off before you put the car in neutral? That makes a big difference. To simulate WOT you would have to shift while the engine is racing.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    4. Is there actually a problem with the vehicle’s computer/Electronic Control Unit?
    Absolutely not.
    Toyota has never found an incident of unintended acceleration caused by the vehicle’s computer/electronic control unit.


    Boy is that statement going to come back to haunt them. :sick:
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..enormous effort.."

    Which would have clearly not been required had the US laws been applicable.

    In the end the US arm-twisting lead to Toyota's actions, voluntary actions.

    So Toyota was forced, prematurely, into announcing a FIX, carpet mats, that they undoubtedly knew was not correct. Now, under, with, additional US government pressure, they have announced yet another "fix" that more likely than not isn't the final answer.

    On the other hand absent US pressure the fix, FINAL fix, would have been incorporated, SILENTLY incorporated, into future designs and no one would really be the wiser.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    This safety site link may answer question. Toyota made final recall on pedal. First announcement no mention of not selling recall models.

    Seems it is against law to sell autos with known or declared defect.. Seems Toyota had to stop selling recall models. Repair not available at that time.

    Seems like a Big Whoops here.

    Have not found why this legal issue overlooked???

    Links to Safety Site. They have other information as well regarding this UA. Have seen news media use comments from them all the time. . .

    http://www.safetyresearch.net/2010/01/27/so-who-called-toyota/

    http://www.safetyresearch.net/toyota-sudden-unintended-acceleration/
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    During test my foot was still on accelerator - shifted into neutral. I wanted to try on Waldo Grade going south as quite steep - wanted engine working too. Yes, it worked - but only left it there for about three to five seconds. At least it would shift into neutral at 60 mph.

    My test did not involve accelerator to floor - other foot on brake - shift to neutral. Yes, not brave enough to do this.

    My test is faulty. Feel free to fire away. But did find out would shift neutral at 60. My hope is all falls into place if I have such an emergency.
  • mnfmnf Member Posts: 405
    Great observation and so true Steve its like a hanging or modern day flogging. Just like in Sports when you become #1 or rise to the top everyone is gunning for you to step on a grape. Toyota stepped on a grape and the line is out the back door and around the corner.

    MNF
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My guess, in the unlikely chance your accelerator should take off you will be well aware and shift into neutral and bring your car to a safe stop. If nothing else I would hope this has made people aware of this situation and the best way to save your self. I know I was never aware of the defect in modern braking systems.
  • mnfmnf Member Posts: 405
    2009 Toyota Corolla (myself) and a 2000 Lexus RX300 ( wifes) and still driving it every day concerned yes scared no. I have been telling people that if i didn't own a Toyota the right time to buy is coming. When they get this resolved the HOT deals will come out to get customers back. News and newspapers you cant belive everything you read on who said what when. Each one of the owners or non owners has to come to his own conclusion based on facts. The problem is what are the facts and what are the based on. We may never know.

    Good luck with your Camry.

    MNF
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Glad to help you. Just passing along any research info I have bookmarked for people to review.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    CNN had lots of incoming new headlines for awhile there. Lots of turf protection today it seems. Heat is on. Government investigations beginning. Threats of possible fine on Toyata. Etc. I am researching as much as I can. My son helps tremendously.

    Good luck to you.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, think I am ready. And hope everyone talking about this encourages others to check and test too.
  • jdm9jdm9 Member Posts: 38
    I think trying to simulate exactly an unexplained electronic event is impossible, but what you are doing is among the only things you can attempt, to become a better driver and increase your chances of surviving an unexplained acceleration. I do not think ANYONE should try this unless they are expert drivers with expert supervision in situations where there are NO obstacles or other vehichles. Its something that I had my daughter try, and then I had her just turn the key back to the first off position to let her feel how the brakes and the steering become much harder when the motor is shut off. What was really interesting was her reluctance /fear of trying it, which might explain why some folks panic if an electronic failure occurs, and they then subsequently really screw up. However After she tried and saw and felt that it wasnt so bad and that she actually had steering and brakes , she felt much more confident. This I beleive is good driver knowledge for anyone to add to their repertoire, and how WFO you have it when you try depends on your comfort level and the safety of the surrounding situation. Possibly someone can add their comments as to whether they think the computer that controls the WFO will allow you to back the key off one position when you re in an unexplained WFO position because obviously IF it wont allow you to cut the motor by backing off the key one position then learning to feel comfortable doing it is not going to help in an emergency unexplained WFO situation.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Heat is on

    Other than the incentives, the other automakers seem to be playing it close to the vest.

    Ford can't say much because they have the same problem with their Transit Connects they sell in China.

    GM can't say much because the Vibe is on the same recall list as the Toyotas. Not to mention being preoccupied with Cobalt steering issues.

    Hyundai better be paying attention to all the Sante Fe reports of similar problems.

    Honda has non-US Fits catching fire because of a faulty switch.

    And there's already been a bit of a backlash over the conquest incentives. (AutoObserver)

    If this pedal thing really winds up being stray electronics or something like that, it could cost all the automakers big bucks to fix their systems.
  • jdm9jdm9 Member Posts: 38
    Your right, if its mechenical and the pedal fix works, no big deal, business as usual, they all have screw ups, however , if it ends up being electronic, the whole works of them are quite inbred so that all or most carmakers would suffer, not just Toyota. I think what we are seeing is, live in a glass house ,,, dont throw stones. Besides no one really wins here. If there is an electronic problem and they admit it , they have big problems. If there is an electronic problem and they have not been forthcoming their problems will magnify. Ironic that it is really no different then life in general.
  • sharonklsharonkl Member Posts: 660
    Yes, making sure you could do this on your vehicle is important. At least I feel more comfortable now too. Thank you for sharing your daughters experience. I can most definitely see why she was apprehensive. So happy to hear she too feels in control.

    Is her reaction a good learning lesson for all of us? Maybe help us to understand how frightened people must have been when they had UA???
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Don't they get the Ford Transit Connects from Turkey? Kind of surprised they use the same throttle control.

    The issue is still what about the Toyotas that did not have a stuck throttle and were SUA electronically? We have one taken to a dealer. The Toyota dealer replaced several components. Do we know which was the culprit? Did Lentz address that smoking gun? That should be the thrust of the NHTSA investigation. Toyota needs to tell the buyers what was stuck wide open with that vehicle. And WHY? Just replacing it does not fix the problem. It only sends the guy down the road with a new component that could fail in the same way. I wonder if Toyota even understands the impact this can have on their sales? Audi learned a lesson and was found innocent. Such is life.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's another CTS pedal, but the news doesn't make clear if it's the one made in Ontario like the US/Toyota ones. That version of the Transit Connect is built there. CTS has plants in China I think.

    Ford Stops Some China Vehicle Production (CBS)

    The NHTSA will probably be hammered as hard as Toyota during the congressional hearings.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Other than the incentives, the other automakers seem to be playing it close to the vest.

    Ford can't say much because they have the same problem with their Transit Connects they sell in China.

    GM can't say much because the Vibe is on the same recall list as the Toyotas. Not to mention being preoccupied with Cobalt steering issues.

    Hyundai better be paying attention to all the Sante Fe reports of similar problems.

    Honda has non-US Fits catching fire because of a faulty switch.

    And there's already been a bit of a backlash over the conquest incentives. (AutoObserver)

    If this pedal thing really winds up being stray electronics or something like that, it could cost all the automakers big bucks to fix their systems.


    Yeah, but there is a difference here with Toyota as they have been in denial on this issue for 5 years. And we are now learning they did everything thing possible to try and prevent the latest recall from occurring. Shame on Toyota!
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    500k rock solid reliable miles on 5 VW diesels so far,
    plus a few hundred less-reliable miles on 1980s rabbits!

    I've noticed that many media outlets use VW as the comparison/demo for brake-override.

    Obviously the 90hp and 100hp VW diesels can never have a problem with runaway acceleration. (?!)
    More seriously, I can see the safety advocates making a case for limiting hp of cars in USA due to the risk of catastrophic Toyota-like bugs. Yes They Can.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Toyota hit by over 100 Prius brake complaints

    TOKYO -- Toyota Motor Corp. has been hit by over 100 complaints in the U.S. and Japan about brake problems with the popular Prius hybrid, the latest in a spate of quality troubles for the automaker as it grapples with massive global recalls.

    The Japanese company's sales are being battered in the U.S. -- Toyota's biggest market -- after recalls of top-selling models to fix a gas pedal that can stick in the depressed position.

    The new Prius gas-electric hybrid, which went on sale in Japan and the U.S. in May 2009, is not part of the recalls that extend to Europe and China, covering nearly 4.5 million vehicles.

    The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has received about 100 complaints involving the brakes of the Prius new model. Two involved crashes resulting in injuries.

    Japan's transport ministry said Wednesday it has also received 14 complaints since July last year about brake problems with Toyota's new Prius hybrid.

    The 14 complaints included an accident in July 2009, in which a Prius crashed head on into another car at an intersection. Transport ministry official Masaya Ota said two people were slightly injured in the accident.

    "The Prius driver in the accident told police that a brake did not work," Ota said. "Other Prius drivers also complained brakes were not so sharp." The complaints in Japan involve the new Prius model, and the vehicles were all made in Japan, he said.
  • millwood0millwood0 Member Posts: 451
    "there has to be 'room' in it to add the additional 'brake overrides the throttle' logic. "

    you rarely produce a mcu with just enough flash for your code. those things are regularly produced so that the flash come in standard size, 32k, 256k, etc. even if the code takes less space than that.

    plus, a brake override, assuming the sensors are already there, will take a few bytes to implement. ask your son about it.

    the difficult part is to test the code under all possible conditions so that it doesn't malfunction.

    that will take some serious time / efforts / resources.
  • revitrevit Member Posts: 476
    Was just looking at the January 2010 auto sales and noticed several Toyota models that were not included in the most recent recall were down, including Lexus and Scion models, fell 15.8 percent for the same period.

    Anyone think that this recall is having a negative impact across all of Toyota and Lexus or why else would those non-recalled models be impacted? :confuse:
  • jdm9jdm9 Member Posts: 38
    Ill try the shorter version of my previous long winded posts as Ive had few comments and maybe someone can respond. Does anyone know if any of these people that have had an unexplained sudden acceleration tried a) shifting into nuetral or b) turning back the key one position. Surely some of these people must have tried more than just applying the brakes and some must have tried a or b above but I am having trouble finding out what happened if they did. We already know it works in a controlled situation , so my question only concerns reports of what happened in an unexplained sudden acceleration.
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Anyone think that this recall is having a negative impact across all of Toyota and Lexus or why else would those non-recalled models be impacted?

    Oh absolutely. I'd even go as far as saying Toyota anything, affected / unaffected models, new or used, will take a hit. If I were car shopping, Toyota would not be anywhere near the top, not so much because of safety worries, but because of resale issues in the short term. Demand for anything Toyota is down.

    Question for those in the biz, have you seen auction prices for Toyotas in general taking a hit?
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