Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

revit · February 2010

That could well be GM, aka: Obama Motors, which is struggling to survive.

Well, a statement like that says enough :confuse:

My 2010 Prius hasn't received a recall notice, although my understanding is that only Toyota's produced in the US are at risk.

Get ready cause yours will be up next with the bad brakes or sudden acceleration.

Given the track record of US built cars over the years in terms of recalls, it would not be a surprise if GM, Chrysler or Ford doesn't discover safety related issues in the coming months.

Your kidding right? Toyota takes the Grand Prize in Recall; more last year than any other automaker; guess that is what they mean by Toyota Quality.

silvercoupe · February 2010

Toyota takes the Grand Prize in Recall; more last year than any other automaker; guess that is what they mean by Toyota Quality.

Do you have a link or source for this?

Karen_S · February 2010

Edmunds.com Responds to LaHood Flip-Flop About Toyota Recall

silvercoupe · February 2010

Looks like Ford still holds the recall record:

http://trueslant.com/nickkurczewski/2010/02/03/the-biggest-recall-ever-and-no-it- s-not-toyota/

revit · February 2010

Toyota takes the Grand Prize in Recall; more last year than any other automaker; guess that is what they mean by Toyota Quality.

Do you have a link or source for this?

Toyota led all automakers with most recalled vehicles in 2009

And something tells me they will take the title again for 2010 and the way they are going, may take the Grand Price for the Largest Automaker Recall EVER...stay tuned! :lemon:

The Detroit Free Press reports that there were 15.2 million units recalled this year  nearly double the 8.6 million vehicles that were called back in all of 2008. And the leader of the recall pack was Toyota, with a knee-wobbling 4.87 million cars and trucks recalled due mostly to the Japanese automaker's unintended acceleration issue. Toyota had nine major recalls in all in 2009, with the other big issue coming courtesy of rusting Tundra frames. Toyota took the top spot in recalls for the first time ever this year, which tells you as much about how bad 2009 was for Aichi, Japan-based automaker as it does about its history of making high-quality automobiles.

This year's second biggest offender? Ford Motor Company. The Blue Oval recalled 4.52 million vehicles to land in second place in the recall rankings, due mainly to the company's ongoing issue with cruise control modules. Without the years-old cruise control issue, Ford would have had posted best year ever. General Motors rounded out the top three, with 2.24 million recalls announced in 2009, thought it is worth noting that the Detroit, MI-based automaker's 17 total recalls was the most of any automaker. Chrysler actually had a good 2009  at least when it comes to recalls  with just under 600,000 vehicles affected.

jdm9 · February 2010

The odds would be against that not to have happened. But once again I just want to hear from any of those people as to whether it worked for them, to gain control of their car after UA. But does it not seem surprising to you that given the certainty of an impending crash that some people would not try shutting off the motor?

revit · February 2010

In 2009, Toyota was after the best selling car and ranked up record sales, however for 2010, there is a slight change of plans...Toyota is going for the record of the Biggest Recall Ever. :sick:

silvercoupe · February 2010

But does it not seem surprising to you that given the certainty of an impending crash that some people would not try shutting off the motor?

Makes sense to me.

Drivers do make mistakes (I know I have), but it is much easier to blame the car. Especially with all the publicity about Toyota.

Looks like an ambulance chasers field day!!!

millwood0 · February 2010

"But does it not seem surprising to you that given the certainty of an impending crash that some people would not try shutting off the motor? "

no. the number of incidents, reported ones at least, is very low (~100?). Of those folks, I don't know the extent of the 'malfunctioning'.

given the limited number of fatality reported in the news media, i tend to believe that many of those owners involved in the reported incidents got their vehicles under control - through braking probably.

shutting off the motor is a pretty extreme action, and I would imagine that a driver would only resort to that after s/he had exhausted other means - aka it would take a while for the driver to come to that conclusion, if s/he could remain calm at all.

and having a pushbutton switch doesn't help in those incidents.

Sandman6472 · February 2010

This "name calling" and trying to top one another is foolish...most of the car companies have had "issues" and they've been resolved...case closed. This nonsense in here is useless...let's all just let Toyota fix the problem and let's move on shall we! There are so many other problems with no solutions in life, focus your energy in a positive way!

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

stever · February 2010

Karjunkie over in Edmunds Answers found a great link about Audi's sudden acceleration problem.

Turns out that one of the lawsuits against Audi is going to trial in Chicago soon. 22 years after the original suit was filed (gotta have some appeals in there to liven things up).

The Swedes, unlike the US, Canada and Japan, blamed Audi's problem on the cruise control.

(Sandman, is that you? Speak up, I can barely hear you - you sound like a voice in the wilderness . Keep it up!).

fezo · February 2010

I love the conflicting LaHood statements. Looks like he accidentally spoke what he really thought and now has to backtrack because that's not what the feds want us to hear.

revit · February 2010

Someone stole the engine or the wheels?

No, the 2009 Camry just has this little problem...it likes to suddenly accelerate on its on and currently my dealership doesn't have the parts. To make matters worse, interest in the Camry has plummeted so no one would buy it and Toyota still cannot decide what is the true underlining problem.

Very poor quality Toyota! :sick: :lemon: :sick: :lemon:

kernick · February 2010

Have a microprocessor "watch" the existing brake fluid pressure sensor and the EFI PWM pulse width. If the brake pressure rises above a certain level and the PWM doesn't decline cognizant with the idle setting within a second or so then use a relay to OPEN the EFI or fuel pump circuit.

You must be an electrical engineer? I work with a guy who installs the automation systems and Allen-Bradley ladder logic, in our factory equipment. His answer to every design flaw is to add another sensor and more code. Guess what he still has a lot of work after years because there are still flaws, and he's the only one he understands the system right now.

Do you know electrical code though? And OSHA safety codes. What does an Emergency Stop button do? It kills the energy source to a machine. It disconnects the electricity, air, or fuel that is powering the device. When we hit an E-Stop electricity that is providing signal power is cut; that power was holding a valve open, which is constructed such that springs will close it if there is no power holding it open.

What's the simplest, most reliable way to stop an engine from running? A mechanical shutoff of the energy supply. Stop the fuel !! The engine will shutdown within a sec. or 2 (instantly in a high pressure DI engine).

millwood0 · February 2010

or he just misspoke.

kernick · February 2010

and having a pushbutton switch doesn't help in those incidents.

The reaction-time to a an unusual situation can vary from a fraction of a second to a few seconds, as humans process the unexpected information/situation. It depends on the complexity of the situation. The best method to shut something down as established by safety-engineers over years is a push-style button (E-Stop as I mentioned above). We train all our manufacturing personnel in the chemical plant I work in, not to think of what controls they should try in an emergency; no thinking required - push that 1 E-Stop button. The E-Stop button is engineered, sometimes with backups to backups, to shutoff the power.

millwood0 · February 2010

"focus your energy in a positive way! "

if we did, how could we keep the ambulance chasers employed? they need to feed their families too.

fezo · February 2010

If so that's a heck of a misspeak.

millwood0 · February 2010

"no thinking required - push that 1 E-Stop button. "

those are big, red/yellow and protruding buttons.

not those tiny, but nice and flashy button behind the steering wheel that you wouldn't hit if you didn't look kind of buttons.

buttons aren't buttons.

jdm9 · February 2010

According to the following link since 1999 Toyota has had 2200plus reported events, 800 plus crashes and 300 plus injuries and 19 fatalities. Those are the figures I was basing odds on, not around 100. Where did I ever suggest a "pushbutton" , I agree that you need a quick mind to access and decide if shutting off the ignition is the route to go, however given an impending crash ,whats more extreme, crashing or turning the ignition switch back one notch. However the question is still does anyone know if the computer that is responsible during a UA will allow turning back the ignition switcth one notch to shut off the motor. That is my only question and you seem to be missing that point.

http://www.safetyresearch.net/2010/01/29/toyota-unintended-acceleration-complain- ts-update/

revit · February 2010

Transportation chief says administration will hold Toyotas feet to the fire

Can we really trust Toyota at this point? I don't think so. Haven't we all been through this enough already?? :lemon:

Toyota issued a statement urging consumers to take any vehicles experiencing problems with the accelerator pedal to a dealership for an immediate fix.

But it also said that the problem did not appear to "occur suddenly," suggesting drivers would experience warning signs before a pedal became stuck.

"Our message to Toyota owners is this -- if you experience any issues with your accelerator pedal, please contact your dealer without delay. If you are not experiencing any issues with your pedal, we are confident that your vehicle is safe to drive," the company said in a statement.

kernick · February 2010

...let's all just let Toyota fix the problem and let's move on shall we!

That's an interesting attitude. Similarly, did you think that 1) Exxon should be left alone when the Exxon-Valdez incident occurred, or 2) that the maker of Tylenol - when they need a recall, should just decide what's best practice?

Society needs to continue to support the investigation of these issues, and support knowledge and procedures to minimize the probability and effects of future product issues.

There are too many unethical people and companies to allow companies to police themselves!

There are so many other problems with no solutions in life, focus your energy in a positive way!

If people didn't demand improvement or resolution of negative issues, then you would have work environments and products injuring and killing millions more each year. Who was that U.S. author who wrote the books of what factory life was like in the 19th or early 20th centuries?

millwood0 · February 2010

one of the earlier links provided by someone shows an analysis (by edmunds?) for 2008 model year - to isolate from the mass hysteria / copycat thing. and I think on that list Toyota had 54 (?) incidents for 2008 MY vehicles.

"however given an impending crash ,whats more extreme, crashing or turning the ignition switch back one notch."

any sane person in that situation (crash is about to happen) would be spending all his/her efforts EXCLUSIVELY on avoiding a crash at all costs. Only those denser than a rock would be trying to figure out how to shut off an engine in that situation.

"However the question is still does anyone know if the computer that is responsible during a UA will allow turning back the ignition switcth one notch to shut off the motor. That is my only question and you seem to be missing that point. "

I don't know what kind of switches Toyota uses then but if it is just a turn-key mechanism, the only thing preventing you from turning the key back one notch is you. No computer involved.

sharonkl · February 2010

First of all thanks for addressing & responding.

(1)Costs - to have my auto flashed if brake override update available for my vehicle is questionable but may range from minimal - to $800+. Since my vehicle is Toyota I would can only guess cost would be lower range. Also since Toyota would actually own computer program - hope this consumer cost would be reflective of this fact. Would I spend $800 - yes. But this is what I would do.
(2)You not wanting a brake override is your own personal decision. We all have a right for our opinions. Thanks for letting me know.
(3)I own a 2006 RAV4 and am happy with my little vehicle. I paid cash for vehicle. I selected RAV4 because it suited my own personal needs. I needed room for two large wire kennels as I have two hunting dogs & go hunting, wanted good mileage, wanted reliability.etc. Money was not an issue or why I got a RAV4. I looked at all available SUV's. Did I know of issues with UA? No. I bought Dec, 2006. Will I keep my RAV4 - yes.
(4)Do I want to see if I can have brake override system flashed into my vehicle if available? Yes, I do. And since my vehicle is not being recalled I would have to pursue. As for recall models I am not sure what Toyota will be doing for sure. Have no idea if systems will be automaticaly flashed into autos?? Rumors were out there some recall models would get. Not sure if this is a fact. This is just my own personal decision. Others can make their own decisions regarding what they would like to do. They may feel using "how to stop your vehicle in UA incident" sufficient.
(5)RISKS - you are quite correct we must all decide what are our levels of risk tolerance.exposure. . . .
(6)VW - sorry I don't particularly care for VW at present. And models would not be what I prefer and would not meet my present needs. .
(7)Brake override systems - Toyota has already announced Nov. 2009 they will be installing on all their models in 2011. Maybe sooner. This is a Toyota decision. I applaud Toyota. But they did have to do something. Toyota had 40% of complaints. I am only hoping I may be able to purchase an update flashing with this feature for my auto.
(8)Toyota wrong car?? So far - my opinion is no. Is great for me -even with a 4 cylinder - even though some say "lacks power." Works great - and since can still climb Waldo Grade going 65mph at 3rpm - is fine for me. My son is polite, but know it probably drives him crazy to drive.
(9)UA - personally would like to see UA complaints finally addressed by all auto manufacturers & DHSTA, and effectively managed with a resulting decrease of incidents. Autos now full of electronics. With this comes the intermittant glitzes. And no trace left. And may not happen again. etc. etc.
(10)RECALL - objectively and personally would have liked to have seen Toyota immediately be more pro-active with media releases. Are they being totally upfront - can not honestly and objectively say for sure. None of us will ever know for sure it appears - all auto manufacturers investigations/analysis information is proprietary. DHSTA has relied always upon auto manufacturers investigations. Etc, etc, etc. Hope we all review the unraveling of facts, research well, and keep up with the news. Yeah - may get some of the other manufacturers that have higher complaints also - address as well.

gagrice · February 2010

The Ford cruise control fix may be the largest by number. I cannot find any deaths related. Toyota has at least 19 deaths and probably more that were not attributed properly. Dead people don't get a chance to tell about their car racing out of control.

I took my 99 Ranger in for the cruise control fix. It was a wire with two connectors and a fusible link. I had never heard about the recall until I got the letter in the mail. Took the service manager less than 30 seconds to do the fix.

isellhondas · February 2010

Seriously, you sound like a broken record.

We KNOW you are doing EVERYTHING iun your power to drag Toyota down or "dance on it's grave" as our host pointed out.

We get the message, seriously, and trying to further scare people is like pouring gas on a fire.

kernick · February 2010

I just had my washing machine repaired the other day. I have all these switches I can turn the washer do all sorts of things. The switches are connected to a computer-board. Well for some reason after 7 years the computer-board went bad; they do that after so many thermal-cycles, dust, and electricity-surges.

On Sun. I was turning that switch to get the washer to spin, I unplugged it to reboot the system ... no good. Basically every switch tied to that computer board is useless. It can be a hardware or software issue with machines that make you switches, or keyboard/mouse useless. Similarly turning a key in that ignition switch is not a very good solution if you have control-system problems/lockup.

houdini1 · February 2010

Why are you knocking your own car in a public forum? If you ever do sell it you might get sued by the buyer for knowingly selling them a dangerous piece of junk !!

sharonkl · February 2010

Here is Consumer Reports Auto Engineer Auto comparison between Toyota and VW for UA incidents - how to stop auto

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/video-hub/cars/safety/how-to-stop-your-car-du- ring-sudden-acceleration/17188412001/48234862001/

beachfish2 · February 2010

"What's the simplest, most reliable way to stop an engine from running?"

Short of an air strike, I'd say using a .50 BMG round through the block. It works for the military.

John

millwood0 · February 2010

I can see NRA supporting that idea: mandatory ownership and carriage of high power military grade rifles / machines in every vehicle.

millwood0 · February 2010

'Similarly turning a key in that ignition switch is not a very good solution if you have control-system problems/lockup. '

that's the problem with computers / software: they are function rich, and bug rich at the same time. it is hard to debug them all.

a typical cpu die is tested may be up to 15% combinations. Doing a 100% combination testing would have taken hundreds of years, for a run-off-the-mill cpu.

millwood0 · February 2010

'First of all thanks for addressing & responding. '

my point is that if brake override really were that important to you, you should have bought a car that is known to have such a feature engineered into it, be it a VW or whatever.

Toyota never advertised that it had that feature on your car and yet you bought it any way.

Your action spoke much louder than your words about how important such a feature was to you then.

If you realize that you really should have had it then, well, that's your mistake not knowing your own needs better and earlier.

sharonkl · February 2010

Well said. We should all be interested in human safety. We are certainly affected.

UA has been issue for long time. UA in and of itself is a high exposure safety risk.

I would like to see all manufacturers address & am supporter of implementing Brake Override Systems. Toyota will be installing all 2011 models, and maybe sooner. Several manufacturers already have - complaints low.

millwood0 · February 2010

"We should all be interested in human safety."

that's exactly why we take risks.

stever · February 2010

I love the conflicting LaHood statements. Looks like he accidentally spoke what he really thought and now has to backtrack because that's not what the feds want us to hear.

I think he's a politican in training - he's at flip-flop 101 stage right now. :P

revit · February 2010

If you ever do sell it you might get sued by the buyer for knowingly selling them a dangerous piece of junk !!

LOLOL Sell it? Are you kidding? Who would buy a Toyota at this point? If they recommend you don't drive it, do you really think anyone would want to even if you gave it away? :confuse: :confuse:

revit · February 2010

that's exactly why we take risks.

Yes, I definitely agree that be the case when anyone gets into a Toyota now a days. They went from be above all other automakers to one of the most unsafe cars on the road today. :sick:

sharonkl · February 2010

Whoops. I apologize if I did not explain myself well. This is all new for me. I was unaware of brake override systems when I bought RAV4. Most average consumers are not even aware autos have this feature. That included me at that time. I was looking at reliability ratings, etc. by different agencies when I evaluated my purchase.

Since this all started, my investigations on UA , etc.- became big supporter of these systems.

Appears Toyota likes as well, since they announced Nov, 2009 they were putting on all 2011 models. I am very happy about this. This announcement before recalls.

And thus, if update is available I would gladly pay to get flash for my auto. Why - over last six months I have had intermittant unexplaineed minor surges aceleration. All quite manageable, and can not verify cause .May be unrelated.

Now - just my personal preference.

millwood0 · February 2010

"Who would buy a Toyota at this point?"

the smart ones?

revit · February 2010

To be honest, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy of buying a new Toyota with all the cover-up they are involved with. This story is just starting to unfold and its just not worth putting anyone's life at risk.

sharonkl · February 2010

Thanks for your opinion

tlong · February 2010

Can we really trust Toyota at this point? I don't think so. Haven't we all been through this enough already?

I find nothing to applaud Toyota about, but this is like a feeding frenzy. Auto companies have done worse. I'm thinking these posts are becoming worse than the problems. Are you UAW on a publicity campaign?

millwood0 · February 2010

don't worry about your enemies: they are smarter than that.

millwood0 · February 2010

the same to you,

sharonkl · February 2010

I loved your mention of washing machines!!! I am smiling. Ha, reminds me of how I managed to keep my dishwasher going for 17 years. And was still going when I got my one. Yes, glitz in computer board.

jofallon · February 2010

The concept of brake override was meaningless to many of us till we discovered we didn't completely control the acceleration process with the gas pedal. We didn't know the cars had an electronic throttle, so potential ways of circumventing unknown problems with them never occurred to us.

revit · February 2010

Auto companies have done worse

REALLY? From the one who has built their reputation on quality and by doing so, attempted to set above all other automakers. Now reality hits where their cars are unsafe and they were forced to stop selling their cars. When did that happen last? And to make matters worst, they had more recalls than any other automaker.

Its not funny, but in some ways it is hysterical, as I and others find them now to be a laughing stalk. Guess you won't EVER hear someone again say they buy Toyota for it's quality. Come to think of it, not really sure what would then be the purpose of buying a Toyota in today's time.

The same mentality held for Toyota management by trying to ignore the problems and for some reason then think they would just go way. Toyota allowed their image to develop into an arrogant, sad state and that was obvious with how they chose initially to handle the recall until they were forced to as they would not comply.

And for the die hards that still view Toyota as bullet proof, that is exactly how Toyota managed to create this fabricated view on their quality. Long and behold, there quality is worse than most of their competition.

millwood0 · February 2010

" This is all new for me. "

that's my point. anything man-made will have flaws. some of them we know of, others we don't know yet, and then others we may never know (aka the knowable unknowns vs. unknowable unknowns).

so whenever you acquire something, you are taking a risk that a) it has flaws; and b) it doesn't perform up to your current expectation or future expectation.

in this case, your expectation moved: from being unaware of this feature to wanting this feature in your car.

it is not reasonable to go back to the vendor (in this case Toyota) to demand a piece of goods they never advertised to you when you bought the car from them.

Now, there is a certain level of merchantability that Toyota has to deliver - under which they are being forced to recall and fix those vehicles.

But that merchantability shouldn't be and isn't the basis for you to demand something Toyota never warranted.

I don't own a Toyota but I just find this whole fiasco funny, and so reflective of us collectively to that point that it is deeply saddening.

stever · February 2010

From the one who has built their reputation on quality and by doing so

How did that slogan go? Quality is Job 1?

Or was that some other outfit...

Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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