Mazda Mazda2

carfreak09 · September 2010

Torsion beam suspensions are not as inferior as some would lead you to believe. I think some people have been led to believe that a torsion beam is no different from a rigid axle because it's described as not being independent. Torsion beams are in fact independent suspensions because the wheels are able to move up and down completely separate from each other, thus providing a comfortable and stable ride. They are considered semi independent because the wheels are still physically linked to each other by 1 beam that travels across the width of the car which greatly limits the amount of toe control the suspension has over the tires. In fact, you cannot adjust toe on a torsion beam, so never let a shop tell you you need a rear alignment. There is nothing to adjust. This could be looked at as a good thing since that's one less maintenance expense. Torsion beams are cheaper to produce, take up less space, and can handle more curb hopping abuse than a multi link setup while providing the benefits of independent wheel control.

What does all this mean? Well, the average driver will not be able to tell any difference between a torsion beam and multi link setup. If the springs, shocks, and anti roll bar are tuned properly, a torsion beam can handle just as good as a multi link. Where a torsion beam loses some of its composure is in extreme handling manuevers, such as sudden high speed lane changes or high g sweepers that take the tires to the limit of adhesion. On a track, a torsion beam has more of a tendency to be tail happy because of its lack of accurate toe control over the wheels. It's just not quite as capable or accurate in it's control of the tire's contact patch with the road. That being said, I feel its a good suspension design and perfectly capable for 99% of the drivers out there.

FYI, the Golf had a torsion beam suspension from 1976-2005. VW must have felt the design was plenty good to use it for so many years. I can say without a doubt that my 84 Rabbit GTI was one of the best handling cars I have ever driven.

autonomous · September 2010

Thanks for the excellent input!

My followup question is an obvious one: if the torsion beam suspension is not inferior to the multilink independent suspension, then why are more expensive models routinely equipped with the multilink? For exmaple, Mazda only uses a torsion beam suspension on the Mazda2 and not the Mazda3, Mazda6, Miata, CX7 & 9, etc. Put another way, are torsion beam suspensions an effective compromise to keep vehicle costs affordable? This is starting to sound similar to discussions about drum brakes versus disc brakes.

micweb · September 2010

Great comment.

backy · September 2010

Why do luxury cars offer V8 engines when V6s are much more practical and economical and provide more power than nearly anyone could want? For that matter, why don't luxury cars offer I4 DI turbos vs. V6s, since the I4s offer comparable power and torque but better fuel economy? I think it's one thing: tradition. Who wants to be the first luxury automaker to put a torsion beam suspension into their (FWD) car? Independent rear suspensions are perceived as being better than torsion beam suspensions, so the most costly cars are going to have them if only to meet customer expectations as to what should be in a costly car. And maybe there are some advantages to independent rear suspensions on FWD cars. I've owned several vehicles with independent rears and several with beams, and I couldn't say from the driving experience which was which. Maybe if I carved mountain canyons at high speed every day I could tell.

igozoomzoom · September 2010

The base Jetta S also gets a 2.0L 115hp 4-cylinder that makes the 100hp 1.5L in the Mazda2 a powerhouse in comparison!

igozoomzoom · September 2010

It's just a theory, but I believe the requisite BLACK interior in most Mazda3 models is a factor in the A/C performance issues! They get hotter, take longer to cool down...I have an '06 MZ3 s 5-door with Black/Red cloth interior and the A/C performs much better after being parked in the shade (even on a 95 degree day) than if it was parked in direct sunlight....

backy · September 2010

I had to read that one twice (115 hp Jetta) when I first read about it. It seems like one of those trims that no one will actually buy, but it's there to offer a low advertised price--kinda like the Mazda6i SV.

carfreak09 · September 2010

Your welcome.

As for your question, I think what Backy said a few replies up answers your question. Multi link suspensions offer the absolute best in terms of maximum handling prowess, thus why cars like the Miata have them. Because this fact is known, an automaker wants to be known for providing the best to its customers. It's all about perception. But, yes, a torsion beam is an effective compromise. It provides handling that can't be distinguished by the average driver from a multi link and a ride that matches it while being cheaper to produce, thus keeping the cost of the car down.

jeffyscott · September 2010

"Where a torsion beam loses some of its composure is in extreme handling manuevers, such as sudden high speed lane changes"

So IRS means better emergency handling? Perhaps avoiding a collision?

micweb · September 2010

The difference isn't that great. Stability control makes more of a difference anyway. VW grumbled about having to upgrade to multi-link on the Golf, they didn't think it was worth the cost, but since Ford had figured out a cheaper way to do it on the Focus, VW had to match them. Rumor was VW was going to revert back to torsion beam on the next gen Golf but market perceptions make that unlikely.

carfreak09 · September 2010

I wouldn't say that a torsion beam is less able to avoid a collision than a multi link. What really matters is how the suspension is tuned, not which design they use. A well tuned torsion beam will outhandle a mushy multi link any day. Nowadays, with stability control just about standard across the board, the average driver has all the tools they need to safely avoid an accident, regardless of which rear suspension design they have.

From all accounts, the Mazda 2 handles very good and is in the top of its class so its torsion beam suspension has obviously been tuned well and is not a handicap for the car.

micweb · September 2010

Another source of information on handling safety is Consumer Reports. They test cars through a slalom and for lane change reaction (I believe). They note any problems. Also Euro NCAP definitely does a lane change emergency test - rapid swerve into, then back out of, an adjacent lane.

Neither have noted a propensity for one type of suspension design to be better or worse in terms of basic safety.

autonomous · September 2010

General opinion seems to be that torsion beam suspensions are not inferior to multi-links and that their use in cars like the Mazda2 are to keep them economical. Likely the same reason for the torsion beams in the Fiesta, Versa, and Fit. And as mentioned above a well calibrated torsion beam suspension will beat out a poorly maintained multi-link.

On to transmissions!
I wonder why did Mazda use a 4 speed automatic transmission in the Mazda2. The Fiesta, the Fit, and the Mazda3 have all graduated to 5 speed automatics likely to
improve fuel economy? Is it again a cost-cutting issue?

micweb · September 2010

Torsion beam also saves space, very important on the Fit where the design goal was a flat, low rear trunk area (after moving the fuel tank under the front seats).

One reason given for use of the 4 speed auto was to save weight, something I had not thought of before. Given the lackluster performance of the 5 speed in the Fit they may be right.

Keep in mind that automatics actually have 2 ratios per actual speed these days - converter locked up, and converter unlocked.

The major problem I have with 4 speed autos - which depends on gear ratios built into the unit - is the horrible noisy, high rpm, downshift from 4th to 3rd if you floor it at certain freeway speeds. But if you moderate the throttle on the freeway so it is just shifting between locked up and full torque converter mode, it is quite nice.

Unfortunately there only seem to be two ways to make a 4 speed that is more acceptable on the freeway. Have a large displacement, high torque motor (like in my old Impala, the 3.6 or 3.8); or let a smaller displacement motor run at higher rpm on the freeway (like most makers let their manual transmission models models run).

Problem is fuel economy. Higher rpm are more responsive without downshifting - but you lose fuel economy due to "pumping losses" (motors are more efficient at higher loads and low rpm than lighter loads and high rpm). With a manual transmission you can accept some pumping losses since you have no transmission losses. With an automatic transmission, high rpm means both pumping losses and friction (torque converter, fluid transmission) losses. Plus most auto tranny drivers are looking for low, quieter rpm.

The auto tranny M2 seemed fine, but I didn't drive it hard on the freeway - I don't know what it would sound like, throwing a downshift from 4th to 3rd at 50 or 60 mph. One reviewer complained that when they floored it on the freeway it was terrible.

backy · September 2010

Using a 4 speed to save weight is bunk. A counterexample is Hyundai's new 6AT, used on multiple vehicles. It's 26 pounds lighter than the 5AT it replaced. I think the 4AT on the Mazda2 is purely a cost-savings measure. If other automakers like Ford and Hyundai can put 6ATs into cars of this class, why not Mazda, except for cost savings?

autonomous · September 2010

Using a 4 speed to save weight is bunk. I think the 4AT on the Mazda2 is purely a cost-savings measure.

I tend to agree with you, backy. Perhaps Mazda was not ready to change the this model year but decided to go ahead with the 4 speed automatic transmission for its North American launch. Pure speculation on my part.

This is disappointing considering the build-up to the release of the Mazda2. I applaud Mazda for its class-leading weight saving efforts in the Mazda2. But then to release the car with a transmission that is at least one generation behind seems retrogressive. Ford had the right idea by bringing our the new Fiesta with a 6 speed automatic. The bottom line is that the Mazda2 automatic does not achieve at least 30 mpg overall according to the EPA and the Fiesta does.

Sandman6472 · September 2010

Hopefully they will get smart & offer the 6 speed auto tranny with next years model...would put them on equal ground with the Fiesta. I'll do all I can to convince the wife to wait at least a year! Stupid move Mazda!!!

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

micweb · September 2010

At least one reviewer (maybe two, my recollection if fuzzy) thought the Mazda 4 speed auto in the Mazda2 was more responsive than the 6 speed DSG in the Fiesta. That "tuning" thing once again.

igozoomzoom · October 2010

I'm not sure exactly when the Mazda2 went on sale, but only 589 units were sold in the month of September. This is a great little car and the price/value is almost impossible to beat! What's the problem?

jeffyscott · October 2010

I think it was barely available in Sept, but price/value is easy to beat, without even leaving the Mazda dealer...advertised price of 2010 Mazda3 is about the same as the 2011 Mazda2.

micweb · October 2010

usual ramp up for a new car.

danzigdan · October 2010

I saw this car way back in February 2010 at the Buffalo, NY auto show---never expected to see one that early. The one they had there I think was a darker red, "brickish" color which I kinda liked. From my cell phone pic it didn't look nearly as bright red as the one currently called "true red".

Anyway, it's my roundabout way of saying the colors on the website look much different in person. And the blue does exist; the only one I haven't seen in person. I found a few on AutoTrader.

danzigdan · October 2010

Look for the 10/30 Wall Street Journal article by Dan Neil. He more-or-less trashes the 2. Not a fan.

danzigdan · October 2010

Wow there's video too.

http://www.marketwatch.com/video/asset/news-hub-mazda2-not-so-hot-2010-10-29/EDF- 1E26F-E4BC-4D1D-8B3C-1FDB1BED2E4E

autonomous · November 2010

He more-or-less trashes the 2.
I think you are being too kind ... He definitely trashes the Mazda2.
For example: "standard five-speed manual, which helped propel the 100-horsepower Mazda2 out into the middle of the road, there to be run over by the huge semi-tractor-trailer of mediocrity ... sounds like traffic helicopter has landed on the roof" and "Fiesta's automatic transmission is ... more fun to drive and more fuel-efficient. Again, even Mother Mazda would have a hard time arguing" and the final blow against the suspension which "literally made my wife seasick."

Yikes!

micweb · November 2010

I didn't take that review seriously. It was very unprofessional. More of a SNL skit (on the video). But I guess underneath all the snarky, over the top comments, he thinks the Mazda 3 is much better - while his last test drive was a Bugatti, he keeps adding that "other Mazdas, like the 3, are quite good)."

I guess he thinks this segment of the market - people who want ultra high mileage cars that aren't hybrids - is so weak he can just turn it into a mockery.

Compare the other reviews for a better baseline.

nippononly · November 2010

I couldn't agree more - this guy is an idiot trying to get a few laughs from the audience. Like many car reviewers, he has become so jaded by the $0.5 million cars he test drives on a weekly basis that he can't tell a good car from a bad one under $50K any more.

Having now driven the Mazda2 extensively this weekend, I can definitely say it is my second favorite car in the class, after the Mini Cooper which is a solid $5000+ more. Obviously the Fit is still a contender for folks who want a microvan that seats four adults in total comfort, but for those of us who only ever really use the front seats, the Mazda2 is $1000 less in Touring trim and still has ESC where Fit doesn't, not to mention is equally fun to drive and has arguably better seats (and seating position for the driver) and better looks.

Is there anyone out there who has actually bought one of these and is willing to give us a few of the impressions the car has made on you since you got it?

autonomous · December 2010

I can definitely say it is my second favorite car in the class, after the Mini Cooper which is a solid $5000+ more.

Interesting. How do your rate the new Ford Fiesta?

nippononly · December 2010

I am still trying to find a stick shift to test drive! The Fiestas at dealers near me seem to be exclusively automatics - no-one ever has any manuals in stock.

tsarheld1 · June 2011

I recently test drove a Mazda 2 here in Dallas about 2 weeks about and it was close to 100 and the A/C cooled the car very well.

tsarheld1 · June 2011

Oh my gosh ....is this guy in the video and idiot or what....he doesn't seem to know much about cars...or he has some strange expectations.

Kirstie_H · July 2011

Are you looking to buy a compact or sub-compact car, but youre waiting for a better deal? Or are you looking trying to sell a used car and youre seeing that prices are (or arent) going down? A reporter is interested in talking with you. Please reach out to pr@edmunds.com by Wednesday, July 13, 2011.

tsarheld1 · August 2011

I just purchased the Mazda2 a little over a week ago, and I love the way it drives.....will keep yall up dated on mpg and other niceties.

boyce · June 2012

How is your Mazda 2 working out for you? Did you get std. or auto? What kind of fuel mileage are you getting around town? I would like the 5 speed but I'm sure my wife will want the automatic. I would appreciate any comments about the M2 both pro and con. Thanks Bud

stever · October 2012

A reporter is looking to talk with new owners of micro or subcompact cars (i.e. Chevy Spark, Scion iQ, Honda Fit, Mazda 2, Fiat 500, etc.) to learn how the experience has changed how they think about what they need in a car, and how they use their cars. If you fit this description, please respond to pr@edmunds.com with your preferred contact information by Friday, October 19, 2012.

randydriver · October 2012

I have the 5-speed and I just did a little day trip of 204 miles....and I had the tank topped off when I left...I got back and topped it off and it took 5.109 gallons.....nice....39.92 mpg....

randydriver · October 2012

https://www.fuelly.com/driver/metroperson/2?fu=3295261

boyce · October 2012

Thank you so much for the information. I thought this board was dead. My wife is still pressing for the automatic so I guess it will do a bit less in mpg. It still seems very workable for me. Thanks again for the info and the link to the fuelly page. Bud Mabry.

davicho · December 2012

$13,324 + fees...

Liquid Silver, Touring, M/T

He loves it and loves the deal too!

Kirstie_H · January 2013

A reporter is looking for a subcompact car owner or shopper to weigh in on what kind of impact a sleeker design, like the "Furia" concept released in Detroit, would have on their purchase decision. If you own or are looking for a subcompact car, and think a sleeker design would impact which car you buy, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than Monday, January 21, 2013 at 4 p.m. PT/7 p.m. ET.

grayliner · July 2013

Automatic transmission is laggy. Cornering from a stop sign is sketchy as the throttle control hits a bit like a 2-stroke dirtbike, but after a delay. I press the accelerator pedal and nothing happens for a second. Doesn't matter how gradually I depress it, it lags -then hits. So trying to control speed from a stop around a corner on a city street is hard because it unpredictably lurches toward the car stopped on the right.

The overall car is great. I wish my wife could drive a stick, the auto tranny is no good for city driving. I bet the 5-speed is great. I miss my Echo! MPG is disappointing.

I'm 5'8" and the driver seat is all the way back. The cruise-control controls are my least favorite of the many types I've had.

Mazda Mazda2

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