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2010+ Buick Lacrosse Engine and Powertrain Problems

2

Comments

  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    Hey guys (& gals),
    Check this out.
    http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Factory_Fill/Vehicles_Filled_Mobil_- 1.aspx?pg=2#More Makes and Models
    I would never have guess it. Is this for real?
    I would not have guessed because of the condition of my oil at 5500 miles. I have used Mobil 1 in the past and one vehicle specifically, 86 Pontiac Parisienne with Olds 307, the oil looked like new at 6000 miles.
    My oil now looks to have some black in it, like maybe carbon? And it does not feel as slippery as the Mobil 1 I had before.
    I think I started this search looking for oil filters, the PF63, then started looking at other brands from information I garnered in other forums.
    There is belief, I say belief because I have not personally been able to verify any or little of it, that in addition to the PF63 being bigger than PF48, it also has a higher bypass valve pressure. Such data may have come from comparing info shown for the Purolator equivalents since those were the only ones that gave relief pressure, moving the range 9-12 psi to 9-15psi for the newer PL22500. The Mobil that is shown for our vehicle and crosses from PF63 is M1-212. How well that crosses is uncertain, but it is larger yet by almost 1/2" at 4.45 inches height.
    Also Mobil now has more than one type of synthetic. Mobil 1,
    Which hype is the truth?
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    That is the type of oil GM now requies, dexos. The big word is it will cost more for oil change.
    It turns out the additive package to meet dexos standard is owned and licensed by GM. Oil makers have to pay GM a licensing and per gallon fee. Thus they don't like it and some major ones such as Valvoline, Pennzoil, & Castrol say they won't do it.
    Quick change places don't like it because they will have to stock another oil, more expensive.
    And the normal industry standards such as API are about to release a new standard, such as GL5. It might meet dexos so there is a bit of wait and see.
    Meantime many are arming themselves to fight GM, some saying it breaks Magnusson-Moss.
    GM requires it, GM owns it, and as such they have to give it to owners. Some disagree because they sell it to oil makers, so you can buy it from them.
    Of those that sell it under their brand, so far they have dexos only in their cheapest synthetic. Mobil example, only the Mobil 1 meets dexos, not the energy efficient or extra strength versions, yet they are listed for our vehicle at Mobil.
    Possibly waitning on GL5 spec as mentioned or those premium versions already meet dexos standard and Mobil is avoiding paying GM.

    Pick your oil just got more confusing at least.
    And if dealers don't have the new filter, what are the chances they have the new oil which only started this year. The filter goes back to 2008 for some GM models.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    The point was no "power flushing". Remember the old days with the "drano" type engine/radiator flush. Ran the engine with the cleaner and kept flushing it with clean water till clear. Seemed to work did it not?
    The new power flush scam is where the rub is. It is faster but to what negative results on older tired gaskets? We keep the ole antifreeze clean with changes regardless of color. New aluminum engines seem more clean (as we say down south) than old iron jobs if they can only keep the seals and gaskets in place!
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    I'm not sure what a power flush would be. Possibly higher pressure than cap specification? Harsher chemicals?
    I remember the days you are mentioning, the time with radiator cores were copper. Lye eats aluminum.
    There is no doubt aluminum engines have been a challenge, especially for GM. Prior to the Vette aluminum high output, GM attempts at aluminum were failures. Sealing leaks and wear were terrible.
    GM knew it and that is why they contracted to have that Vette engine built by those that were experienced with building aluminum engines. Mercury Marine.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    I went on a hunt for dexos yesterday, no luck. One parts store told me they had recieved a bulletin from corporate concerning dexos but they had none in stock either. I would like to have seen that bulletin.
    In my wide search I found one brand in a specific blend and weight that was labelled for the new SN & GL5. Pure synthetic.

    I found in my research that some oils labelled SM, GL4 may already meet the new requirements. Oct 2010 was the official release for the new labelling. The companies had to apply for being able to use that labelling.

    Also quite confusing is the owners manual. If dexos is not available, substitute any oil having the API Starburst and weight 5W-30 or if below (minus 20 F) 0W-30. Nothing about meeting the earlier GM specifications or any other standard. By that wording, you could dump non-detergent oil in, but that would be seriously bad.
    A link for the new standards.
    http://new.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/MOTOR_OIL_GUIDE_20- 10_120210.pdf
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    Finding a PF63 has become quite a task. According to ACDelco online catalog the PF63 has 37 applications, but those older than 2011 apply to Ford, Chrysler, etc. To buy a filter for one of those vehicles might be unwise since I suspect and have seen where the cross reference often does not work in both directions. Likely some slight difference in the filter.

    Only one place I know of that actually has the PF63 is RockAuto. I was set to order 6 but delayed hitting the purchase button for a day while I researched the CAF. The next day it dropped to 2 available and shipping has a meager difference between ordering one or six. The remaining 2 disappeared which meant getting a dozen with delayed shipping. I waited for a week for them to get more in house for individual purchase.
    Yesterday I bought substitute.
    Today they have 11 in stock so if you want the PF63 I suggest you order soon.

    Cross referencing just about everyway I could and looking toward local stock, the only filter that was available was the Purolator. They showed the pressure differences between old number cross, PF48, and the new cross, PF63. Their new number is L22500, or if you want the premium filter, Purolator Pure One PL22500. I opted for the PL22500 which is not a cheap filter at $10. If ordering 6 of the PF63, they are less than $7 each and they will send you discount codes if you've done business with them before.

    I was certain ACDelco used to have premium level filters but can't find them anymore. That makes it hard to compare it to say a Mobil 1 or Purolator Premium filter.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    edited January 2011
    The substitute I chose was Valvoline, in part because I've seen those 300K warranties they claim. I just read through it. Like most warranties they have a ton of exclusions. And the oil has to be changed with less than 4K. A couple of things not covered are ring wear and piston slap. No mention of seal failures. This oil is going back and I will get either Mobil 1 or the one that meets the newest spec, SN.
    I have not seen any Shell synthetic which now claims to be one of the OE fills for GM, along with Mobil claiming it at their site.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    edited January 2011
    I was watching TV last night on the green movement and one story that caught my eye was used or reprocessed oil. At Valvoline repair centers the old oil was drained and recycled into "new" oil. They claim that the reprocessed oil worked much better than than traditional oil, not to mention much cheaper too.

    So my question, would reprocessed oil invalidate your new car warranty? And is it really better than original factory oil? This weekend I am going to check out and report back.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    Once upon a time reprocessed oil had to be labelled as such. They likely did away with that because of conservation. Besides filtering there are likely other processes they can use besides redistillation to come up with base stock. I'm not sure how they would remove additives or maybe they test it and then add just enough to bring back to new standard.
    I wonder if they can separate the synthetic from crude?
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    oil changed.
    Relatively easy on this vehicle. I was able to reach drain plug by just reaching underneath. 15MM socket.
    An adjustable or small strap wrench for filter is great.

    Now what I've learned. The old filter, PF48, has a read sticker saying "replace with PF48". We know that is wrong by owner's manual.
    Also looking at the old filter, it has no anti-drain back valve. That helped in not making a mess when pulling filter since there was very little there. But that might not be so good for the engine. It seems no one has laid eyes on a PF63 yet and wonder if it has the anti-drainback valve?

    I mentioned I chose the premium Purolator PL22500, it has the valve. And it quite a bit longer than the PF48. I'll likely have a bit of a mess the next time, but there is a metal shield formed into the block to direct any oil away from engine when filter is removed.
    I filled according to owner's manual capacity, 5.5qts on the 3.6L. I was quite precise, but fear that may have been a little too much. I'll check again in a couple of days. Also my dipstick does not look like the one in the manual.
    My suspicion is somebody at GM messed up again. Supposed to be a bit of a world car? Can you imagine having a SAE drain plug and the Chinaman trying to find a 15.5MM wrench.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    Back to the battery. :)
    While changing oil I noticed some crusty looking stuff along the lower front edge of battery case. I sniffed it and could tell it had the battey acid smell. Also it had dripped out onto painted surface and was eating paint. Going to be a rust spot unless I jump on it.
    I opened the cover to the case and looking down inside I could see moist spots. One near the back of battery and near top, was definitely acid.
    I suspect the vent is at front, top center, a small hole. It was totally dry there, but there may be one on the back I can not see.
    In any event, with this cool weather electrolyte should definitely not be boiling out. Venting electrolyte is an indication of overcharging or charging too fast.
    Anyone else?
    Thought I'd mention so you can take a peek. I don't want mine corroding inside to out.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    I checked my oil level today on perfectly flat surface. It is rather hard to read exactly since it looks like it reads slightly different on one side of the stick compared to the other.
    Either side shows it above the cross-hatch area. The higher side is right at the point where it changes to the cable.
    I'm certain that is what was showing up on factory fill as well, although a bit hard to read when oil was very clean. And by time the oil showed up better it was at or slightly higer than the top of the cross-hatch.

    Considering the PL22500 is slightly larger and anti-drainback I thought the slightly high on stick would go away. Maybe the new filter does not hold any more oil, it just has more filtering material, etc. inside displacing any extra oil.
    So that makes me question the accuracy of the stick. How accurately was the plumb attached to the cable length? The manual still shows a stamped steel dipstick.
    My old Aurora, Northstar engine, it had same type of stick but apparently an oil level issue. It had an oil cooler and book capacity of 7.5qts. I found via forums that GM put out a change dropping the fill to 7.0 qts and the likely reason was blowing rear seals. It took GM until the third seal change to fix problem. I am not familiar with later applications, later than 96, so I don't know what oil capacities were used then and it was not until 99 that the newest seal was factory installed. 4 years of bad seals.
    I don't want to blow a rear seal for sure, nor be low on oil.
    Any DIY that changes oil, I would appreciate what you find as the amount to bring to top of cross hatch or where 5.5qts reads on your stick.
    I will question dealer about this issue and see if they know anything.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    Rider: We have a 3.0L that calls for 6.0 quarts (US) and the PF48 filter (only). The factory fill was definitely above the cross-hatched area and "way up" the clear part of the dipstick. I contacted GM customer service and they promptly confirmed the dipstick part number was correct. Had the oil changed at 2000 after two 700 mile highway trips so not much in-town wear. I was convinced it was over filled since it was over the cross-hatch once again. the service writer confirmed 6.0 quarts on the work order and I kept checking it. Finally at 3000 I changed it myself (PF48 again) and put in exactly 6.0 quarts. Same reading on dipstick -1/4" to 3/8" above cross-hatch area. Now I know where it is supposed to read - above the cross-hatch -STRANGE! Had it changed at 6000 at dealer and right on the same level. Long process to figure out the correct fill level since over filling may be worse than under filling IMO due to rear seal. Changing to a longer filter type may really screw up your determination of the right fill level on the 3.6L.
    any ideas on why the 5.5 vs. 6.0 quart fill on 3.6 vs. 3.0? Bore size or pan?
  • gberpagberpa Member Posts: 44
    I don't notice any change in power; mpg might be a tad lower lately but I think this is due to shorter trips, colder weather and gasahol.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    clear part of stick? Mine has a twisted wire cable and an attached metal plumb at the end. Markings may be stamped or cast, not sure. Mine is at the point of connection between the two pieces. That is about the same distance above the top of crosshatch.
    I did some checking and there are claims the 3.6 is a base engine and then modified according to application. Some have a larger oil pan and claims that the same base engine is used in Suzuki.

    Maybe you got Cadillac version?
    I thought the bigger filter might drop it to the correct position since the new called for replacement is a little bigger. That did not happen.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    Thanks G. I was hoping you might say increased mileage.
    Short trips and cold would hurt it. I'd guess that alcohol content is quite consistant.
    I had to make trip to VA yesterday. Steady 70MPH or slightly less where required and best DIC was showing, 25.8MPG. I took a different way home and top speed was 65MPH for about 8 miles. The rest of the trip home was 50-55MPH and DIC indicated 26.8MPG. The Northstar V8 I had was doing better. BTW, still running Shell V-power.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    I've been doing a bit of forum cruising to see if anyone else is seeing a high oil stick. One forum is about timing chains on 3.6. It appears a large number have had to have them replaced very early on. Some talk that it was supposed to be fixed for 2010, yet they had some with early 2010 production problem.
    Not knowing for sure if oil is part of equation I posted what I had learned of the filter change and dexos oil.
    I posted that the PF48 does not have anti-drainback valve because the one I removed does not. One in the forum directed me to pictures of disassembled PF48 with it.
    What is it? I get the one bad oil filter in God Knows how many?
    Well, maybe not, so you might want to look at yours when they are pulled. It is quite easy to recognize. Looking through the outer set of holes on the base of filter, if you see black rubber, yours has the valve. If you see metal, the end of the filter cap, you don't have valve and likely dry starts. Also if there is some oil in filter yet, tipping to side, oil will come out the outer holes as well as the center one.

    I'm nearing the point that I want to go to GM and KSA.
    ki_k som_ _ss
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    The dipstick in our 2010 3.0L is the typical GM flat metal blade type that has a twist to it. the braided cable type was on our 300ZX (1990) but I have not seen that type on any of the GM models we have had Pontiacs, Cadillacs, Buicks and Chevy (including one with 327 Vette engine) and no braided cable types so far. As posted earlier, we checked the dipstick part number with GM on our dues to the reading above the cross-hatch when full, and the part number was confirmed by customer service. I f you fill change and fill it yourself you will KNOW what it reads correctly.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    Northstar engine uses that style as well as the Ecotec I4.
    I did fill myself and that is why I question what the stick reads. Either the stick is wrong or GM fill capacity is wrong.
    I don't want blown front or rear seal.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    Same concern I had when the factory fill was over the cross-hatched area on our "flat" type dipstick. Drove me crazy until I changed it myself between dealer services and the level was the same with the recommended 6.0 qts in the 3.0L. Later dealer change = same level so 6.0 qts is correct on ours and the level is above the cross-hatched area. Most difficult to figure why they would install a dipstick that reads full level ABOVE the cross-hatched area you are directed {by the owner's manual} to read the oil level. Seems like it be easy to under fill if the tech filled to the top of the read area IMO. Personally I like the 6 quarts in the 3.0L but definitely feel the dipstick application is a built in confusion factor. many people probably never check.
    I really don't worry about the minor stuff but do watch the mechanical issues and the long term durability on any new model- hope we got a good one!
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    I called ACDelco about the PF48 I've got without drainback valve. They pretty much told me, take it up with dealer.
    They had no real data on PF48 or 63, other than continue with 48 until 63 is available. There data did not show drainback valve, but was surprised it did not have one with horizontal mounting.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    I'm going to approach dealer about the loud clang which has mostly disappeared.
    With finding that my oil filter did not have drainback valve, I now suspect an alternate source of that hard metal sound. That is the oil drained back when vehicle sat for a few days. There are a lot of complaints in Acadia forum about bad timing chain, with no explanation as to why yet. One suspicion is poor oiling.
    The VVT (variable valve timing) system locks the cams to start position via a pin until started. At that very moment the control is taken over by computer and the amount of oil either side of the vane controlled by the sytem. If oil had drained down from internals of camshaft gear, as oil flow and pressure purged the air it is easily conceivable that it slams the vanes against each other, metal on metal. This would happen so quickly you'd likely never perceive that momentary bad adjustment of cam timing with metal to metal slamming, other than a sound.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    I got my results back from Blackstone. It looks like I need to talk to them. They did not offer explanation for most of the very high numbers other than breakin. The TBN was only 1.7 meaning the oil was about shot at 5880 miles. And also confusing is the mention 5200 miles, next time go to 6000 miles. Noted on sample was 5880 miles. My OLM was at 22%.
    They did say that there was no way the oil was 5W30. They think it was, maybe 5W20.
    Items reading high: aluminum 2X, iron 2X, copper 7X, tin 3X, manganese 2X, potassium 3X, boron 2X, silicon 10X & barium of which there should be none and it tested at 2. They noted the fuel content was high and suggested it was from idling before change but it was not idled. Possibly because of fuel content, the flashpoint was 45 degrees below the accepted minimum.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    edited February 2011
    Rider: Re your first comment that the oil was was about shot at 5880 miles. We always change oil & filter at 3000, however newer oils have led us to consider 5000 to coordinate with tire rotation visit. Per prior posts, it also "appears" that oil consumption does increase as oil approachs change.
    My dealer confirms 5W30 at change with the original PF48 filter still being used. Metallurgical content you posted sounds like "alloy" makeup of aluminium alloy engine block, heads and components on newer engines.
    Higher fuel content is same as we were advised with 1990 300ZX that had 3.0L DI/DOHC/VVT. Mechanic advised that the digital FI allowed more fuel in oil w/o further explanation and advised 3000 mile oil changes to avoid any problems from dilution. Seems that more frequent oil changes (3000 to 5000 maximum) may be advised with a good oil (My favorite Castrol GTX & HiMileage for older fleet members).
    We also stick to oil change interval regardless of OLM reading since that is an algorithim only and NOT a dipstick reading of oil level as we all now know.
  • gberpagberpa Member Posts: 44
    Rider:
    Good information, thanks for posting. I'm at about 3900 mi and 69% on th OLM -should be 10-15% lower due to service's inadvertent resetting the DIC once. I was planning to change the oil/filter at about 5000 miles along with a tire rotation and will do this or lower mileage target a bit due to the metals level in your sample. My break-in was "by the book".
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    This was the factory oil, so what did they put in? Also the bad PF48. Mobil 1 claims they are the factory fill for these cars.
    I also was working toward a rotation schedule.
    There was no oil used at all. Indicative of synthetics and maybe some newer conventional.
    More fuel in oil with injection seems backwards. The aim is to use as little fuel as possible. The only plausible is enriching just enough to overcome a pollution issue. Otherwise something is whacked.
    One discussion indicates that Subaru Outback uses same engine and before timing chain issue surfaced the OLM would typically get 10K. I ran Mobil one in a 307 and the oil looked better with close to 12K than conventional would at 3500 miles. Engine was obviously running correctly, I had personally tuned the idle for proper lean. This was obviously a case of dino oil just breaking down from use.
    That system on the 307, TBI, and it was sort of an approximation. The computer was constantly searching for lean, working within a range. It would slowly lean until it got a slight stumble on a cylinder at which point it would enrichen just a little. You could clock it to a second when the stumble would occur and it actually was parading through all cylinders alternating the banks. Not near as precise as modern systems and bettable that it would have been richer.
    Factory oil at 5880 looked worse than close to 12K Mobil one in that Pontiac. The Buicks oil appearance would agree with assessment of high gasoline as in running to rich. This is the vehicle that suddenly dropped about 3 MPG.
    The alloys usually indicate what part is wearing according to level. In that aspect I'm a little disappointed in Blackstone. A high copper content would normally indicate rod bearings and certain other ones. They did not attempt to break it down that way. The only source I can think of at this moment for the aluminum would be the pistons against the cylinder walls.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    That sounds like a plan. I'm sure it is not good to have excess metal in oil. It used to be a rule to dump oil after first 1000 miles.
    Also of concern is that about 4500 of it was highway and the TBN was only 1.7. I've seen other forums where oil was changed with about 6K and TBN might be between 8 & 12. So the question comes to mind as to why my oil was so worn out if it was Mobil One?
    I bought a case of pint canning jars at Walmart and will keep a sample of each oil drain. Freezer zip bags for used filters.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    Rider: I can't explain the comment on more fuel in oil with DI. I change my own after initial warranty period in order to avoid the dumb mistakes at the dealers and KNOW I have correct fill and Castrol products versus bulk oil errors and various brands. One non-dealer gentlemen left off the copper washer/gasket on 300ZX and we had a hard to find leak to resolve.
    Any luck on the PF63 filters? I still get PF48 on 2010 3.0L CXL at great dealer- maybe they are working off old stock???
    We are beginning to think there is some user confusion on the Oil Life Monitor and drivers are NOT checking dipstick level- but maybe some never did! All in all the new Lacrosse has tremendous Driver Information System with all the basic needs provided w/o the distracting glitz. Enjoy.
  • gberpagberpa Member Posts: 44
    My oil level-full-hasn't budged since delivery. Now at 3540 miles -incorrectly noted it as 3900 on earlier post I usually check it an alternate gas fillups given apparent low loss.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    We have ~8200 now on 2010 3.0L CXL. A little difficult to read the dipstick, since full is 1/2" over the cross hatch area as previously posted. We had GM check the dipstick part number which they did. Never seen one (in 50 years) that read full outside the cross hatch area. Thank goodness the car does not appear to use oil and always stays at the same level as yours does. The rings and various seals must be seated by now but still nice to "win the lottery" and hopefully get a well assembled engine. We also change at 3000 on all cars but may go to 5000 and watch for burn off if we do that.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    All great posts. Owners manual does say to check level but many may not be reading it.
    A thought about a low oil level sensor just popped to mind. Does this vehicle have one? Several of my past vehicles did, but it never came on because I check routinely.
    As to the dipstick thing, being GM, I know that on the early Aurora's the factory fill was 7.5 qts. They had problems with the rear seal and it took two re-inventions of it before they stopped having problems. They put out a TSB to change the fill to 7.0 qts thinking that would reduce failures. No new dipstick, so when it was reading right in the middle between low mark and full mark, it was properly filled.
    Apparently no new dipsticks for what seems to be an added 0.5qt. But that brings forth the question, "Will we start to see rear seal failures?"
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    Here is where the full report of my oil analysis is:
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2179388#- Post2179388
    Several replies and an amazing number of people in this UOA this morning. Seems lots of people are interested in oil.
    A thought just occurred. I wonder if the high gas content is related to the rough idle at 1500. It is certainly a combustion problem of some sort and have to wonder if some of it carries over when being in drive. A lot of low speed cruising would be near that RPM.
    Possible cause I can think of:
    Ignition, not strong enough for mix at that RPM or timing off.
    Valve timing, for some reason it may be off and it is computer controlled. Also with the direct injection and VVT they have been able to do away with conventional EGR system. By allowing the exhaust valve to stay open an extended period, it draws some of the expelled exhaust gas directly back into each cylinder.
    Now that I think about it, it acts exactly like manually testing EGR valve with idled up engine. I'm going to bet the exhaust valves are not closing soon enough, either by a problem or design.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    Rider: I asked before about the 6 quarts in the 3.0L vs. the 5.5 in the 3.6L. Any insight into why the difference?
    Also the dipstick reading is strange as is the different types- flat metal vs. wrapped cable type with round metal tip. not reading in the cross hatch area per the manual seems like a built in way to misread the fill level to me.
    The rough idle/fuel in oil/VVT action MAY be related. Per prior post we had a progressively rough idle on 300ZX with DI/DOHC and the ultimate correction was a bad injector that was masked by higher RPM's. The cold start valve acts like the old mechanical choke and richens up the mixture for cold start with faster idle. Seems like a possible culprit to me. This would only cause shaking at cold startup IMO.
    We used to diagnose carbon on exhaust valve by putting car in drive and holding brake down while revving engine. If shaking increased it was usually carbon build up on the exhaust valves since they were not fully closing. This would occur cold or hot due to build up caused by blow by if I recall correctly. good luck.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    Sorry, I have no idea why the newer fill capacities on these engines.
    I understand why they did it with the Aurora/NorthStar, maybe. It was likely one of GM's first successful "aluminum" DOHC engines. They used some older technologies with it such as full coolant circulation in engine at all times allowing more even heating. Also it used low oil pressure technology and a split block which had to be split to change crank. And it has an oil cooler with lots of sensors to prevent overheating and low oil.
    It seemed that maybe the extra oil in these engines was to extend drain interval but now I'm suspicious of that because high gas content from UOA is much more common with the 3.6L than some other engines. Their are some that say it is because of DI but I'm more suspicious of VVT and possibly a fault with it.
    Looking at that other forum, there seems to be advocates for changing oil much sooner than the OLM indicates, even 50%. Some dumped factory fill at far less than 1K and some of that stuff was pretty high by that time. A few that checked subsequently showed reduced numbers with dumping around 3K. Some of it may be normal breakin or maybe a crappy factory fill. GM should be testing each barrel or tanker of oil they recieve before putting in engines.
    Does the 3.0 have VVT? I forgot.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    rider: yes the 3.0L is same setup or family as 3.6L. DI/DOHC/VVT.
    One feature I really like is the variable intake setup that eliminates the old plenum/intake manifold arrangement with the EGR that caused the renowned gasket failures we all are aware of with older GM V-6. The 3.0L/3.6L family has been around for some time so bugs s/b engineered out by now IMO.
    Regarding the oil fill amount, i posted earlier about the cast aluminum oil pan on these engines that allows for larger pan/sump area by design. I like the idea of more oil (e.g. diesel engines) and assume that GM modified the front and rear seals to accomodate higher oil capacity.
    I'm sticking with the 3000-5000 mile change interval with the DI engines.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    I did not know that 3 went through so many changes since the last time I had one, so I asked. That one had upper intake gasket replaced and maybe lower was going.
    It is my understanding that some of these engines have become modular. That is, bolt on the pan you want, according to room and application.
    From what I've read, it seems these engines have taken a big step back from extended drains. And it seems it is the VVT that may be causing that. Without the VVT they would not have been able to do away with the old EGR system. I'd bet there were some DI that used that old system. I remember seeing a lot of complaints about the early DI being noisy and hammering like a diesel. My guess would be that they did not have the burn as well controlled pretty much causing a spark knock.
  • gberpagberpa Member Posts: 44
    I had my first oil and filter, tire rotation change today at about 4100 miles on my 2011 CSX. Thanks for the info about PF-48 and 63 as I called dealer 2 days prior. They were using former but ordered a case of the 63s and I verified that was installed. I believe the oil used is Mobil1, 5W-30 but service writer said semi-synthetic. Mobil1 site says that grade is full synthetic so I need to check the invoice # with parts tomorrow.

    I checked oil level before leaving and for my cable-type stick it was right up to the top of the bulb, not above. The invoice showed 6 qts and they said about 1/2 a qt fills the filter volume.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    Good news on PF-63 being available. I believe your 2011 CXS with the 3.6L engine calls for 6 quarts with the PF-63? E Riders posts point out that the PF-63 is larger type than the PF-48, so the 6 quarts vs. 5.5 with the PF-48 makes sense. did the 63 look visually larger to you?
    My dealer fills with Mobil 5-30W also but if I ask for "synthetic" the charge is much higher than standard, so it makes sense that the standard fill is not synthetic. I also believe most dealers use bulk oil. What was your charge for the oil change?
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    Owners manual calls for 5.5 with PF63. The PF63 is likely only about 2 ounces bigger, vaguely noticeable on stick.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    edited March 2011
    Rider: That makes sense. Still can not figure out why 3.0L calls for 6.0 quarts and the 3.6L (same engine family) calls for 5.5 quarts. wonder if the pan is the same for each engine- seems like internal capacity w/b the same. I also saw the internet article with the pix of PF-48 filter (& others) showing the bypass valve setup at the bottom of the filter (closed end). We stick to the OEM filter for warranty issues should that come up but also use the dealer for the same reason with recommended intervals. My guy is still sticking to the 3000 mile interval but 5000 to match the tire rotation may be a plan.
    Did you ever resolve the issue of the boots on the rear shocks dropping away from the upper shock bracket? Ours are indeed white plastic with urethane type glue or epoxy smeared all around and they have dropped down from the bracket and the dealer has offered to reglue if we prefer. The condition raises the issue of exposing the shock piston rod to the elements which was NOT the original intent IMO.

    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2105249&- - page=1
  • gberpagberpa Member Posts: 44
    The service was the $40 GM special less a $10 mail back VISA cash card running until the end of March. This included std oil and filter change, tire rotation and a 27 point inspection. Bottom line cost after the rebate is ~$45 which includes~ $3 state taxes and about $3 shop/disposal fees. So the semi synthetic Dexos oil was about $9 more for the fiill, not bad.

    For my planned change intervals of 4-5k miles, I don't see the value in a full synthetic.

    They also checked on my rear shocks per other thread posts (no problems) and NAV map updates (none found).

    This dealer's service has been super so far and the car is running great.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    On the Lacrosse, there may be restrictions by space under hood. I don't know the specs for size difference between the engines. I think I read that some applications use a larger pan on the 3.6 but the room may not be available on vehicle. The 3.0, well the size of it may allow the bigger pan.
    Or GM limits its cost by the number of various changes it applies. That is 3.6 is available on Malibu and that may be size restrictive. They just did not call for a slightly larger pan for the Lacrosse. Trucks, SUV, they called for a larger pan on some of them, but too large for Lacrosse.
    If you followed the link on first page of that filter site, they show Purolator Pure One, their premium filter with an excellent ADBV.
    My list has been waiting for me to make appointment. And that had been waiting on the VA to set schedule for some important testing. I just got that out of way, 3 days of nothing but water and cigarettes. Maybe I can get it setup this week.
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    Sounds reasonable. Did they use PF63?
    I'd say semi is definitely a step up from conventional. To make oil meet specs, it is all about the additives. But synthetic has its own properties compared to dino. It is my understanding it is far more resistant to breakdown from heat and its lubricating/friction properties are engineered into it. With dino it is more dependant upon additives.
    Since I do my own changes, the few extra dollars for the synthetic jug is not a problem even if it is an over-abundance of caution.
    I will continue to test oil and retain used filters. If they ever try to get ugly because I am using PureOne replacement I will slam that messed up OE filter in their face.
    They are certainly slow about doing update with NAV system. Maybe when it finally comes they will have firmware and software updates to fix some of the other issues.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    Rider: Good luck with the VA schedule. Sometimes they are harder to get to than GM. Hope your problem is not related to Agent Orange defoliant. Lost a lot of buddies to that one.
    I change my own oil also after the warranty issues are past. The 4 year 50,000 mile and 5 year 100,000 powertrain warranty kinda obligates you to staying with the "routine" maintenance program to avoid the dodging and weaving that comes into play if you encounter a major problem.
    Again good luck with VA visit.
  • gberpagberpa Member Posts: 44
    The new filter definitely says PF63 (Blue AC Delco case). I must be having a brain f-rt as I don't recall the factory filter having a number but if there's any memory left, I do believe this new one looks longer, protrudes further.
  • gberpagberpa Member Posts: 44
    From my past work background and reading, I believe a lot about synthetics is marketing fluff. I agree the additive packages and improvements in same are keys. But the basic lubricity of "dino" oil is actually superior to synthetics. So, if the refining is modern-good distillations to remove light and heavy ends- and deep hydrotreats the oil to remove bad actors like sulfur and unsaturated carbon carbon bonds, the mixture is fine for intended use. Aside, the best locksmith I used, always gave me the highest quality mineral oil for use in keeping locks working smoothly.

    That said, within reason, I will use what the GM gurus suggest to keep my warranty in tact.
  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    Agree on the marketing fluff. The Castrol High mileage oil is supposed to have additional expanders and additives like the old STP products to "blow up" the seals and gaskets on older cars. All the marketing hype to extend oil change intervals, with various fixes, does not seem to auger well for needed maintenance on those vehicles. Friend has a 2008 CTS that was just notified to reduce the oil change interval due to potential "problems" with extended schedules. No further details available. 3-5000 miles with a good filter to protect a $30-$40,000 vehicle seems more important than ever with the newer DOHC all aluminum engines to avoid problems with VVT, rings, timing chains, seals and gaskets.
  • gberpagberpa Member Posts: 44
    Good comment about vehicle protection. Someone named Banto posted on another forum commenting on the 3.6 L oil change interval:

    "Be careful with the OLM. My 2009 Enclave has the same engine . OLM indicated oil changes at about 12,000 miles. I refused to go that long and have been doing it at 6,000. GM just released a TSB to change the OLM because of timing chain failures due to oil being in the engine too long."
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    The higher gas content in oil concerns me and from other forums it appears more common with this engine, VVT, than others.
    The OLM and extended drains, if an issue, should have been picked up during testing. I can not help wondering if the basic problem is elsewhere and maybe changing the oil more often only delays onset of failure. Till say past 100K?
    The I-4 in the Malibu does not seem to have this issue and can easily rack 10-12K between changes. So, why half that on this engine. GM has some splainin' to do. And it would seem a lot of free oil changes for changing schedule post purchase.
    BTW, as to whether dino or synthetic, there is a reason jet engines have been using synthetic since it became available.
  • gberpagberpa Member Posts: 44
    You may have something re: delay. My dealer's SM posted elsewhere and several months ago a recommended 5-6k miles for the LaCrosse. I just peeled off their "reminder" sticker which shows 3K. Not sure if this was just an "automatic" by the tech or a change..will ask on Thurs when i stop by for my free birthday car wash/wax.

    Re: jet engines, are those for commercial ones? Mil specs, which are usually tough don't preclude dino..see:
    http://www.qclubricants.com/milprf6081.htm
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