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Cars That Gained Or Lost Respect With Time

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    To say nothing of all the debris that could get clogged in that ignition lock, making Saab mechanics everywhere healthier and happier.

    I think in the case of Saab and Volvo in the 80s, people confused "rugged" with "well-put-together". The two are not synonymous.
  • martianmartian Member Posts: 220
    Years ago, I was reading some auto guy's memoirs (possibly Lee Iococca), and he was relating how the then chairman of Chrysler went for a test ride in the new Chysler Valiant (with the tank-inspired torsion bar suspension). He then drove a Ford Falcon, which had springs in front and leaf springs in the rear-and then commented how much better the "old" Ford design was than the Chysler.
    I guess the Chrysler engineering bigshots had to keep their mouths shut on that occasion!
    The later Falconss were pretty good cars-my cousin inherited his Mom's wagon -that thing seemed to run forever.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    So you don't think the Volvo's from the '80s were put together that well, eh?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2010
    No, I don't. Volvo did great welding but really bad gluing and snap-fits and paintwork, and I think the cows they used for their leather were radioactive. You drive an 80s Volvo on a bumpy road and it sounds like an Venice beach percussion band in there.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I still have yet to see any Volvo 240 from about 1982-1991 that has its original paint in shiny, tip-top condition. Even the two 240s I used to have ('84 and '86) had badly faded factory paint jobs and they were almost 20 years old to boot.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,677
    I always sorta looked at the Volvo 240 as a Swedish Dodge Dart. Heck, they both date back to the 1960's! Even though the 240 came out in 1974 or 1975, wasn't it really just a heavy modification of the old 140 or whatever they called it, rather than a ground-up new car?

    But basically they're both simple, maybe a bit rough around the edges, and that type of ruggedness where yeah they might squeak, rattle, and leak with age, but they'll keep chugging (and smoking) along for years after many lesser cars had been retired. And theyr'e both pretty space-efficient, as well.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'll tell you my "Volvo Theory". The makers of Volvo secretly wanted to build an American car all their lives but, residing in Europe, they had to disguise it somewhat.

    I'm not sure how they managed to surgically remove the Joy of Driving out of a car, but the 240 did that somehow. What you got was a rugged metal box that puttered along, and refused to die. I guess they sort of "paced themselves" by avoiding any kind of excitement. It was, in that twisted sense, one of the first cars to "conserve energy" by not wasting in on the driver.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited December 2010
    Andre's right; it is a Swedish Dodge Dart!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The father of a girl I dated years ago had two Volvo 240s - a 1986 model and a 1989 model.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The mere fact that parents picked these cars to give to their children tells you all you need to know.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    An elderly lady drive into a local mall today in a nice, clean white Volvo 740, with cream leather interior. and parked a couple of spaces from my car. I took the opportunity to complement her car. She thanked me, and commented that it's old, and her children have been urging her to trade it for a new car.

    Since she appeared to welcome the chance to chat briefly about her car, I learned that her 740 is a 1988 with 170,000 miles. Since this car was very well maintained cosmetically (don't know mechanically, but it was quiet and didn't smoke) I asked if it's been high maintenance, and she responded "no."

    I know very little about Volvo 740s, other than the fact that the V6 that came in some of them was troublesome. How does the 4 cylinder 740/940 compare with the 240, in terms of reliability and durability? Is this woman just lucky?

    Incidentally, I like the styling of the 940 better than the 740. The rear styling from the C-pillar just appeals to me more, in a similar way that I prefer the rear styling of the '53 GM cars over the '52s.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    A few years ago, against my advise, I sold a Volvo S-80 to a young gal that just HAD to have it. Her mother was an employee at our store at the time and I warned her too.

    This gal will no longer speak to me. From what I hear everything failed on that car like a string of firecrackers and she lost thousands of dollars.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    No opinions on the last of the RWD Volvos?

    If the 240 is the Swedish Dodge Dart, then what are the 740 and 940? The Swedish Olds, Buick or Chrysler maybe, in terms of the North American market?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    When I was a kid, I had a couple of PV 544's. Oh, I loved those tough little cars and I wish I could find another one!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That woman was SOOOOOO lucky I'd go find her and ask her for her favorite lottery numbers.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I love 544s. It's one of the greatest cars of all time. Simple, tough, fun to drive, reliable as a rock, easy to fix, easy to hot-rod, funky friendly styling. I almost pulled the trigger on one some months back but decided it was just a little too rough for me.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    For a few years, Volvo used a V-6 engine that was a total POS. They were so bad that if one got traded in the Volvo Dealers would wholesale them.

    I know some Peugeots used the same engine.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yeah, me too.

    Back in the day, they were the same price as a VW and SO much better of a car.

    I looked at one too a couple of years ago but it was too rusty.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Wasn't that the same woof-woof engine they put in the Delorean? We all know how great that worked out.

    Sometimes with old cars one has to separate the person's LOVE for the old car, from its actual reliability, when you here anecdotal evidence. Also, you keep a car 20 years, you don't add up what you've spent--it could shock you.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,704
    I've read a few horror stories from 740/940 owners, with the general impression they're money pits. But 3rd hand info...
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I had forgotten about that. Yes, they were the same engines!

    Delorean must have designed the car than then looked around..." Oh, I'm going to need engines for these"

    Of course Peugeot was there for the rescue.

    At least Tucker found some Helicopter engines that I heard weren't bad!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Delorean was supposed to be turbo-charged but the engine deal fell through, so he had to scramble for what was available.

    Tucker converted the helicopter engine from air to water-cooling and also changed camshafts, etc. But apparently it was a sturdy motor. He actually bought the company.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited December 2010
    Yep, in his scrambles, he couldn't have picked a worse engine.

    Didn't Howard Hughes have something to do with those Tucker engines?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't think so. "Aircooled Motors", which made the Tucker engine, was formerly owned by Republic Aircraft. The Tucker family held onto the company for a while after Tucker's death. Eventually it was sold and moved to Poland.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    OK, thanks. I don't know why I thought there was a connection.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Maybe there is---I just never heard about it in the research I've done on Tucker.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,677
    My neighbors had a 1989 740 wagon. They bought it used in 1992, and got rid of it in 1998, with around 90,000 miles on it. It was starting to get expensive towards the end of its life, and every month or so had to back to the Volvo dealer, to the tune of around $1000 per visit. They replaced it with a Subaru Legacy Outback, and have stuck with Subes ever since.

    And for some reason, back then, none of the local mechanics wanted to even look at it, so their only choice was to take it to the Volvo dealer, which was 20-some miles away. Is there anything about a Volvo that's so exotic that your run-of-the-mill mechanic wouldn't want to mess with it?
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    That's what I suspected. It also occurred to me that, more likely, she loves her 740 so much, for whatever reason, that she's blind to its weaknesses.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I thought the 544 was a step up in price from the VW Beetle.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    It's my understanding that Volvo shared that V6 with Peugeot and Renault, and DeLorean purchased the engines for his sportscar from Renault.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    It may have been a couple of hundred dollars more and that was a lot of money in those days.

    Still much more of a car in every way!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    You know, I think it was Renault that made that miserable engine.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    About 500 bucks more, so a tidy sum more in those days. But the 544 was cheaper than the Karmann Ghia, and in that comparison way more car for the money---faster, stronger, warmer and probably more reliable.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    News stories about the Hughes H-4 Hercules "spruce goose" were circulating in the news at about the same time as the Tucker Torpedo - which was ironically called the "tin goose." That may have lead to some confusion as to a Hughes-Tucker connection.

    Also Howard Hughes became interested in helicopters and founded Hughes Helicopters in 1947 and produced the fascinating XH-17 flying crane.

    The XH-17 was originally designed by Kellett Helicopters as a huge ground test platform for a tip jet powered rotor system for the military. Howard bought the rights from Kellet and in 1949 was awarded an Air Force contract to develop the test rig into an actual flying, heavy lift aircraft. It was first flown in 1952 and testing revealed a very limited range and stress/vibration issues with the massive rotor system.

    I've seen the length of the rotors reported variously as 125, 134, or 136 feet long atop the 35-ft tall aircraft which was powered by twin modified GE turbojets. That is one big chopper. :surprise: People who witnessed the XH-17 flying in the 50s and 60s recall the slow turning rotors and distinctive whop-whop sound of the blades.

    Take a look at this "futuristic aircraft" video, you'll see the Hughes XH-17 flying crane at 2:10.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    While I've neither ridden in nor driven a 544, I believe all the positives that shifty and isell say about it. I think what held back sales in the U.S. was that it looked like a shrunken '41-'48 Ford, and was priced like a Ford.

    The 544 could probably give most Fords of its day a good run for their money in acceleration, and handily out corner and out brake its larger American counterpart. However, it clearly lost when measured by the bigger-is-better standard. Volvo also had a small dealer network, but the 544 succeeded in establishing the Volvo brand in the U.S. That was no small feat. It succeeded because it was a good product.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2010
    Hughes was a fascinating man. Now our "heroes" don't create amazing aircraft or 300 mph trains---they create "facebook". Whoopie.

    Volvo 544 -- this was really the first credible, rugged Volvo that could run on American roads and survive. The 444 wasn't up to the job, with its 3-main bearing crank and tractor-derived 1600 cc engine. The 544, with the legendary B18 engine, sturdy 4-speed and a suspiciously Chrysler-looking differential, was a virtually indestructible automobile. You had to literally atomize it through rusting to kill it.

    Weaknesses? Fiber timing gear running against steel crank gear---not so good. Also soft camshafts. But they'd run anyway.

    American mechanics didn't "understand" the SU carburetors. I'm not sure why, since they only have three moving parts.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Was it 500.00 more?

    Can't say "only" 500.00 because that was a whole lot of money then.

    Funny you would mention Karmann Ghia.

    Right now, as I type these words there is a Karmann Ghia parked at a locak school with a For Sale sign on it.

    I had to stop of course. No price on the sign, just a phone number which is never a good sign. I did call and leave a message.

    It's a 1974 Convrtable and walking around it I have to say it's a solid Number 3 car in every respect. Maybe even a lottle better.

    Baby blue, black top.

    What do you think it's worth?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Those had the smoothest, sweetest shifter and they had a certain sound to them that made me drive sometimes with the radio turned off.

    One night, a buddy who had a black 544 decided to throw an M-80 over a classmates back fence as a prank. By luck, it just happened to land on a glass patio table. I had wondered how it made so much noise?

    The next day at school the story went around. A neighbor told the police that it was some guys in a black 1948 Ford!

    No, we didn't get caught.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,677
    Yeah, sometimes it's hard to remember how different money was back then. For example, in 1969, you could get a stripper Valiant 2-door sedan for as cheap as $2094. I've heard a VW Bug from that era cost around $1600. On the surface, IMO at least, that doesn't sound like a lot of money. but, plug it into an inflation calculator, and that $1600 comes out to $9258 in 2009 dollars (2010 aren't available yet), while that Valiant, in 2009 dollars, comes out to $12,116. Pretty big difference there.

    And, as a comparison, my old '69 Dart GT hardtop MSRP'ed for around $3600 in 1969. Auto, power steering, a/c, vinyl roof, 3-speed wipers, heater, ratio, etc., but still just a 225 \6 and 3-speed Torqueflite That's like $20,831 in 2009 bucks!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Back in the late sixties there was a local VW dealership. Kendon Motors.

    If you wanted a new VW, you paid full price, picked your color and waited six weeks.

    Of course, they kept a few in stock that had another 1000.00 in dealer installed accessories that you cojuld drive home if you didn't want to wait.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,677
    Of course, they kept a few in stock that had another 1000.00 in dealer installed accessories that you cojuld drive home if you didn't want to wait

    Yeah, that's one thing I think a lot of people today forget, is how back in the day, cars really came "a'la carte'. When you look in those old car books and they quote the base price, the cars look so cheap, and we think about the good old days, but truth is, once you optioned them up, they got really expensive, really fast.

    For example, my grandparents bought a brand-new 1957 Ford Fairlane 500 4-door hardtop, pretty well-equipped. Base price, if you look in the books, is around $2500. Well, Granddad saved everything, and one day, showed me the paperwork from that sale. By the time you added the automatic, big V-8, power steering, brakes, radio, heater, etc, that sucker was around $3500.

    My '57 DeSoto Firedome hardtop coupe had a base price of $3,085. But, I spec'ed it out once, using one of those American Standard catalogs, and as equipped, more like $3800. In today's dollars, that's like $28,630. For a car with no a/c, crank windows, AM radio with one speaker, no ABS, traction control, etc.

    And that '57 Ford? $26,370 in today's dollars.

    A/C added about $500 in those days. Or, about $3700 in today's dollars!

    And we whine today about cars costing too much money. Honestly, all things considered, I think cars today are pretty cheap!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Solid #3 Karmann Ghia convertible? Maybe....oh...$7500?
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj7ii8z4LLs

    Well this has been a fascinating thread to read. As a kid and young driver I had experiences with many of the cars talked about here.

    The car my parents had when I was born in 1964 was a 1961 Falcon station wagon. They kept it until in 1970 we got a 69 VW Bus. That Falcon has 3 on the tree and seemed ok most of the time, from what little I remember. It had pretty amazing amounts of room all around, even though it was a lot smaller than a full size wagon.

    My girlfriend in 1991 (and now wife) had a 1961 Dodge Lancer. That was a superior car to the Falcon in every way I think. It had pretty snappy power for the time (while the only thing that made our Falcon look fast was the later 69 Bus). That slant 6 engine was pretty impressive with the push button transmission. I think flooring it you could maybe get to 60 in about 13 seconds, which was excellent for an economy car at the time. The body was very solid, whereas I think the Ford was more flimsy. That Lancer just seemed like a well engineered car. Even had seatbelts and a padded dash. Amazing visibility. Practically 360. My future wife grandma bought it new, and when we had it it had only 60-80,000 miles on it. Ran like a top and needed almost nothing mechanically. The one thing that broke I remember was the windshield wiper. Passenger side, fortunately. Parts could not be found anywhere, even a junkyard, for love or money. We had only one windshield wiper after that.....

    Cars are so much better today. I'm amazed I'm alive, really. Take a look at this 59 full size chevy folding up like an accordion, while the 09 Malibu--a smaller car--does much, much better.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I don't know what's with the guy with the Ghia.

    I called him and he immediatly asked me for my number and told me he would have to call me back in 30 minutes which he never did.

    Three hours later, I called again and left a message on his machine which at this point, he hasn't returned.

    I've learned that when a seller doesn't put a number on the For Sale sign that it's usually overpriced. I know I won't call him again.

    I've always liked those and I can't remember the last tme 've seen one much less a convertable.

    7500.00? I'll report back if he calls me. Thanks!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Biggest issue with the Ghias is, of course, rust, so the car needs to go on a lift before you buy. These K-Gs are very expensive to restore---the rear fenders do not unbolt like on a VW, so it's all about welding in new panels. And "nose damage" is common.

    The convertible top is quite pricey if you have it done professionally and correctly. Otherwise, pretty much VW underneath, so easy to work on and mechanical parts should be everywhere.

    My brother had a very early Ghia coupe. I remember it had corduroy interior!
  • martianmartian Member Posts: 220
    I mean, they were designed much like a Chevy-rear drive, live rear axle, recirculating ball steering box, American style front suspension.
    You paid a hefty premium for the car-only you got a small 4 cylinder engine (instead of a 6).
    Had you ordered a Chevy of the time, and gotten a upgraded suspension (HD shocks and springs)-you would have a Volvo-only better and cheaper.
    As for their (alleged) longeveity-if you maintained the Chevy like the Volvo, it would last just as long.
    The other thing about Volvos-in their early days, they came with Philips radios-those radios had terrible FM sections-if you were more than 10 miles from a station, you couldn't pick it up.
    Most people opted for a japanese radio.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Volvo 544 was really fun to drive. I can't think of a similar Chevy that would have been. I mean, a Chevy II with HD springs and shocks would ride like a 3/4 ton truck and probably not have a 4-speed. Vega was nice looking but pretty nasty to own. Maybe the Corvair was as close as you'd come to "fun" but you had to be careful how much you threw it around turns, and the 4-speed was simply awful.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Oh, I know about the "nose damage" problem but I had forgotten the rear fenders didn't unbolt.

    He still hasn't returned my calls so my interest has waned.

    I did look on Ebay and I'm thinking that 7500.00 estimate may have been a bit on the light side.

    Heck, he might have sold it!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Oh, yes, very much fun to drive and that wonderful sound they made.

    I once had a chance to buy a 544 wagon. It needed too much work but talk about a cool car!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2010
    Well for a #3 car, which is, you know, a pretty decent car but with some chips in the paint, maybe a split seam or two, unrestored underneath (road dirt, surface rust), some dull trim, etc, I would think $7500 is fair. When you get over $10K on these puppies, they have to be pretty darn sharp top to bottom.

    These "Carmen Gears", as the ads sometimes call them, can get real ratty very quickly and are a pain to sort out because they are rather fragile. If you have bent belly pans or a dented nose, it's a real hard job getting those straight again.
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