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2012 Ford Focus

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    An Elantra Limited is nearly identical in price to a 2012 focus SEL sedan all things being just about equal wiht features and specs.

    How do you figure that? An SEL sedan with leather, 17" alloys, and moonroof (all standard on the Elantra Limited) comes up as $23,380 MSRP in Edmunds' pricer. The Elantra is $20,700. This is without nav or the upgraded stereo on either car. Those don't look like nearly identical prices to my pocketbook.

    As for the Cruze... I think there's a LOT that's right about it. Great interior quality, very quiet, economical, good blend of ride and handling. About the only demerits I see are vanilla styling (but not offensive), not a lot of power, and not the roomiest back seat in the group (but I don't know how roomy the Focus is in back).
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    edited February 2011
    Disastrous! Forget about stretching your legs out. At least the sedan does not have the head room problem found in the Fiesta :sick:

    The Golf VI, even the base 3-dr, got both comfy seating & room in the back.

    The new Jetta got even more leg room in the back, but w/o a comfy chair (too low).

    And as far as having a nice wide rear visibility for lane change, the upcoming chopped-top Golf VI might be the only car today...
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited February 2011
    This ain't your father's Ford Focus, gentlemen. I have both eyes and both ears wide open and perked up for this 2012 Focus.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp3MU92WURo&feature=player_detailpage

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "How do you figure that? An SEL sedan with leather, 17" alloys, and moonroof (all standard on the Elantra Limited) comes up as $23,380 MSRP in Edmunds' pricer. The Elantra is $20,700. This is without nav or the upgraded stereo on either car. Those don't look like nearly identical prices to my pocketbook.
    "

    It's easy when you look at features the Ford has that the Hyundai doesn't. I see one thing the Hyundai has that you can't get on the Ford and that's heated rear seats. The Ford has things like dual-zone climate control, MyFord, more power without much sacrifice at the pump, automatic headlights, etc. You also had to add the SEL Premium pkg to get to the price you quoted and that added rain sensing wipers, reverse sensing system, and an auto dimming rearview mirror that the Elantra doesn't have. Those little things add up and, I would guess, keep the prices pretty even if all were equal. Everything isn't black or white right? ;)

    So yeah, you can't get an equally equipped Focus for the price of an Elantra. That I won't argue. But each offeres different features at the same price and it's all up to the buyer to decide what they want at that price. I have two small boys so heated rear seats are useless to me unless they can somehow heat booster seats too. I avoided that option in our Flex for that very reason.

    "As for the Cruze... I think there's a LOT that's right about it. Great interior quality, very quiet, economical, good blend of ride and handling."

    OK, so yeah, that stuff is right about it and I should have chose my words better. But is any of it unexpected in this class of cars now? Did Chevy overwhelm you with any of those aspects of the Cruze?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The problem is you MUST get all the extra stuff on the Focus SEL to get basic lux-trim features like leather interior, and the moonroof is extra cost. What if someone doesn't want dual-zone climate control (a funny concept in a compact car, IMO), MyFord-like features, rain-sensing wipers, etc.? You have to pay for them anyway. For nearly $24k, I would be looking at a mid-sized car rather than a compact.

    But suppose you add to the Elantra Limited the Premium Package, which includes navigation system with 7-inch screen; rearview camera; 360-watt premium audio with external amplifier; automatic headlamps; proximity key entry with electronic push button start; and engine immobilizer. MSRP is $22,700. What is the lowest-price SES sedan with those features?

    As for the Cruze, since it has the nicest interior in the class with the possible exception of the Focus, possibly also the quietest car in the class, and offers class-leading FE, I would say that did impress me if not overwhelm me. No compact car today overwhelms me. A Bentley or Ferrari would overwhelm me. (wink)
  • markus5markus5 Member Posts: 102
    edited February 2011
    Yes, 2.3 PZEV The '04 was the last year for the ZTS trim level and the old funky elliptical inspired interior & dash board. I think it is more integral with the exterior. I did get the upgraded rear suspension. It is still a fun drive everyday with very little diminishment of ride comfort at 100 k.

    There is much "technical talk" in these posts, but I maintain that purchasing a vehicle is better done by the "seat of the pants", all other things being equal, (costs, comfort level w/ brand & dealer). You mention the "Pinto Suspension" of the Mustang. Well, I drove the new 6 cylinder Mustang last summer. Believe me, that feature was the last thing that came to mind. After cost and practicality, it is a matter of a personal feel. If it grabs you, go for it. For me, hopefully when the snows leave the area, I will be ready to be impressed and again hopefully fuel prices will not be so high that it would be a consideration in my decision.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "The problem is you MUST get all the extra stuff on the Focus SEL to get basic lux-trim features like leather interior, and the moonroof is extra cost. What if someone doesn't want dual-zone climate control (a funny concept in a compact car, IMO), MyFord-like features, rain-sensing wipers, etc.? You have to pay for them anyway. For nearly $24k, I would be looking at a mid-sized car rather than a compact."

    The last time I configured a Focus SE (two weeks ago) you could in fact order the two-tone leather interior. Of course I want dual zone climate control, rain sensing wipers and the nice Sony audio system, and those features cannot be had if one wants a stick shift (SE only), even if it is a lame 5-Speed unit. So much for Ford's claims of this car being able to be had in the same flavors as the Europeans get (less the diesel of course).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, two-tone leather with the SE. The OP specifically talked about the SES sedan, however.

    Automakers will never give Americans exactly what is available in Europe, because the vast majority of Americans won't buy a car with a stick. And most will buy an SUV before they'll buy a wagon or a hatch. At least we are finally getting the same Focus design that Europe has.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    edited February 2011
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp3MU92WURo&feature=player_detailpage

    With only a natural aspirated 2.0 4-cyl, this car got one hell of nerve costing over $27k, no matter what name plate it's got.

    Besides, "The steering is very direct. There's pretty good feedback through the wheel...for the average person, not the enthusiasts. Enthusiasts will want more feedback."

    Go test drive an used Focus ST 2.3 sedan, or better -- the SVT (ST170 in Europe) 2.0 hatchback -- & feel the difference!

    I know this new Focus is really a shortened version of the "Jame Bond" Mondeo not available in the U.S. at any price, but the only thing really got shortened is the rear leg room, not the price.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Yes, two-tone leather with the SE. The OP specifically talked about the SES sedan, however."

    It matters not, the only new Focus that cannot be configured with Leather seating is the S Sedan.

    "Automakers will never give Americans exactly what is available in Europe, because the vast majority of Americans won't buy a car with a stick. And most will buy an SUV before they'll buy a wagon or a hatch. At least we are finally getting the same Focus design that Europe has."

    Sorry, I don't accept your reasoning. There are plenty of folks out there whom not only despise SUVs, but would also be more than happy to buy a nicely tarted up car roughly the size of the Focus with a manual transmission. If there weren't then BMW, Audi, VW, Mazda, and a number of others would have long since stopped selling their smaller offerings with a stick shift. That and Ford's own rhetoric (pre-release) said there would be no differences between the North American car and the European version (other than diesel of course).

    While I applaud Ford's efforts with the Focus, I and absolutely disgusted they've chosen to limit the nicer versions of new car to autotragic transmissions. I mean geez, it isn't as if they have to certifiy a different drive train like they would with the Fusion V6 to offer a stick; it's the same freakin' mechanicals regardless of whether it's an S, SE, SEL, or Titanium.

    For my part I'm already starting to look up market again; I really wanted to buy American and really thought the Focus would fit the bill, but it looks like either a GTI 6-Speed or even an A4 or 328i will be occupying my garage bay within the year.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sorry, I don't accept your reasoning.

    Disagree all you want with my reasoning, but you can't argue with the facts of what people buy. People don't buy cars with manual transmissions much any more in the USA. If more people clamored for cars with sticks, that's what automakers would make because they want to sell cars. They don't create their product mixes by whim; they heavily research what people want in cars. Europe gets more cars with sticks because people there prefer them.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Wow, that's a lot to reply to! :surprise:

    "The problem is you MUST get all the extra stuff on the Focus SEL to get basic lux-trim features like leather interior, and the moonroof is extra cost."

    Well, yes I think I said that right? Therein lies the problem. But if you make all things equal they would be pretty darn close in price.

    "What if someone doesn't want dual-zone climate control (a funny concept in a compact car, IMO),"

    True. I have the DEATC in my '08 Escape and '09 Flex and it's basically useless.

    "But suppose you add to the Elantra Limited the Premium Package..."
    Well you could add a different pkg to the Focus and get the MyFord Touch which is, IMO, superior to a navigation system. In that it has more functionality plus turn by turn navigation if not on the screen. Who looks at the screen while driving though right?

    "A Bentley or Ferrari would overwhelm me. (wink) "
    Oh so true!!! Let's keep it in perspective though.

    "Sorry, I don't accept your reasoning. There are plenty of folks out there whom not only despise SUVs, but would also be more than happy to buy a nicely tarted up car roughly the size of the Focus with a manual transmission."

    Count me in. Mostly. I like our SUV/CUVs but I'm replacing one with a Focus or Fusion. The other will be replaced with an Edge-like crossover. I think the market will change somewhat with the current rising gas prices. CUVs are still not all that great on gas when you dig down deep. I would LOVE to have a stick shifter but the options are too limited now. I had an '04 Mazda6 and an '06 Mustang GT, both with sticks, and I wish the former were still an option. I've resigned to the fact that I'll now have to shift electronically. Whether that sits well with me or not is yet to be seen.

    Great posts guys and gals. Good conversations and civilized arguments are what make these forums fun and keep me coming back!
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "People don't buy cars with manual transmissions much any more in the USA."

    Let's see...

    Given that the take rate for manual transmissions has been hovering between ten and twelve percent for something like the last fifteen years (and the numbers have ticked up over the last couple of years).

    Given that the average number of cars sold in the U.S. has been ~12.5 million (kinda guessing here) for that same period of time, then well in excess of a million cars per year are sold with a real transmission.

    Given that only a select number of models are even offered with a manual transmission, the take rate for those models is typically well above twenty percent.

    I'm thinking that there is (and continues to be) a market for manual transmissions in cars like the Focus. Long story short, Ford blew it by preventing the buying public from ordering a higher end Focus and a manual transmission.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "I had an '04 Mazda6 and an '06 Mustang GT, both with sticks, and I wish the former were still an option. I've resigned to the fact that I'll now have to shift electronically. Whether that sits well with me or not is yet to be seen."

    Hmmm, when I bought my Mazda3 (yes, with a stick), I saw a 2010 Mazda6 on the floor with a manual transmission. I just checked the Mazda-USA web site and see that this car is still available with a manual transmission (albeit in el-strippo/4-banger trim only).
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    Maybe some people insist the 6-cyl option as the only way to go for the performance-oriented stick drivers. Ford actually thought about replacing the RWD Mustang w/ the FWD Probe based on the Mazda 626, but...

    You know what? After I test drove both the 4- & 6-cyl Mazda6 at the MazdaRevItUp event more than half a decade ago on a twisty driving course, I really hate 6-cyl's nose heaviness, especially on a FWD car. & that also makes the weightless rotary RX-8 w/ std suspension superb in BOTH ride comfort & handling!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Can you provide a reference for your numbers?

    Here's what one source says on the subject (emphasis added by me), from a year ago:

    The ability to drive a car equipped with a manual transmission is becoming a dying art. The sales numbers tell the story: In 1985, according to Ward’s Communications, 22.4% of all vehicles sold in the United States came with a manual transmission. By 2007, the number had plummeted to 7.7%.

    A quick check of vehicles for sale on AOL Autos tells a similar story. Of the 4,391,747 vehicles recently listed for sale, only 241,560 -- or 5.5% -- came with a manual.

    http://autos.aol.com/article/stick-shift-love-affair/

    Another reference, from last November:

    Even though manual transmissions have been in decline for decades, a new EPA report shows that 6.7% of new vehicles sold this year are equipped with a stick. Sadly, it's the highest percentage in the last five years .

    http://jalopnik.com/#!5694777/67-of-vehicles-sold-in-us-have-manual-transmission- s

    So it looks like sales of MT cars is more like 6-7% in the USA, not 10-12%. The good new for MT fans, the number of cars sold with MTs crept up a bit last year. But still a very small segment of the market. If Ford et. al. see that there is an increased demand for MT cars, especially well-equipped MT cars (which is what I think your complaint is about, since you CAN get the Focus with an MT, just not in the higher trims), they will offer them. Again--they want to sell cars.

    So you and others who want an MT in a high-end Focus: write to Mr. Mulally, and tell him you really, REALLY wanted to buy a Focus SES with a stick, but you couldn't, therefore you bought X instead--AND FORD LOST A SALE, AND A CUSTOMER. If they get enough letters like that, they'll do something about it.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited February 2011
    just wonderful.

    image

    Red is nice but that Goldfinger color is more what I want. I will hold out for what I want and ya know, when I look long and hard at the 2012 Ford Focus hatch or sedan, transmission doesn't matter. I'll buy their 6-spd. automatic "dual-clutch" DSG transmission with the little flicker on the gearknob to change "gears."

    I can say it doesn't matter because my 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS is still glistening and glowing Rally Red in all its glory and it has paddle-shifting fan-boy fun factory-installed. And here's the gist of this post, carlovers.

    It doesn't matter! It's the body of the car that matters more than the transmission to me. Having said that, I respect those that it does matter to.

    That's what helps form us as individuals. We have noses and we have opinions. We vote with our pocketbook and Mr. Mulally is first a businessman. I used to work way underneath him at The Boeing Company. He will do what it takes to make money, not please the rabid enthusiast. backy has it right and I also understand that.

    Having said that, I can still insist on ordering a 2012 Ford Focus SE hatch or sedan that only has a 5-speed manual tranny and is loaded with a nice stereo, regular old climate system and no SYNC or anything else and I would be happy as an Ocean Shores clam over here in the northern Idaho panhandle. That's the beauty of this-Ford still has left an option for us to buy stick in our '12 Focii! I consider that good news, but, to me, transmission doesn't make the sale. The car does.

    It's not even the carmaker that makes the sale to me. It's the particular car model I want to buy that sells itself. By the time I decide what I want all the salesperson has to do is provide the exact copy of '12 Focus I want.

    Done deal.

    image
    Sheesh...it even looks hot in silver

    image
    Boeing...I mean Ford blue is always nice

    A 2012 Ford Focus SE Hatchback rides on 16-inch wheels and starts at $18,065. | January 27, 2011 | Ford Motor Company

    Crikey! Look how good this 2012 Ford Focus SE hatchback looks with the smaller 16" wheels and the Boeing...I...I mean Ford blue color. And I like the wheel design and...one can order one of these with the Ford 5-speed stick transmission. Am I missing something here? $18,065? What's not ta like here?!

    This find is starting to solidify my 2013 Ford Focus SE hatchback purchase plans...and I might just insist on a Ford 5-speed shifter, too. Why not? Whoo-hoooo boys! This car is the way to go back to buying American and still do so with pride and respect. Period.

    No Al Gore GW speeches required. No all-electric car purchase ahead. Just plain old 5-speed American Focii gleaming bright in the sun. I feel a release of pent-up car buying dilemna tension...sort of like the feeling I get when I know for sure the dorky LA Lakers have been beaten by the OKC Thunder in the 2011 NBA playoffs.

    Life is once again good.

    There's also a five-speed manual, but with just the five cogs and a flaccid clutch it's not really optimized for either performance or fuel economy. It's more of a value proposition on the low end of the price scale, which explains why it's confined to S and SE models.

    The above is from an Inside Line article here on Edmunds on January 27, 2011. This is why many will not go for the new Focus manual tranny and this is why my test drive takes on even more importance. A shoddy shifter will kill a 2013 Ford Focus SE hatchback in Ford blue, 5-speed manual tranny and kickin', competent AM/FM/CD stereo with bass-boost. This should all be there for around $20,000 before tax and license or I'm walking back out to the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS in Rally Red and CVT automatic tranny, thumpin' stereo, not to pass go or even collect a big bag of Dots for the ride home.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "Hmmm, when I bought my Mazda3 (yes, with a stick), I saw a 2010 Mazda6 on the floor with a manual transmission. I just checked the Mazda-USA web site and see that this car is still available with a manual transmission (albeit in el-strippo/4-banger trim only). "

    Sorry, should have clarified the trim. The Mazda6 I had was indeed the S model with a V6. Pretty much all of the mid-sized sedans still come with a 4-banger and a manual transmission option of some kind. I don't think any of them offer the MTX with a V6 or better anymore. Mazda used to, Honda used to, and Nissan used to. I think they've all quit offering it by now.

    I really liked that Mazda6 but the Mustang deal came along and was too good to pass up.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    For cars of roughly this size class, the only games in town with anything more than four cylinders seems to be BMW, and Mercedes-Benz (3-Series and C-Class). Given that Ford is going back on their word to bring us the European flavors of the Focus, I'm looking up-market once again.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    While I don't have numbers at my finger tips that contradict what you've posted, your numbers are so vastly different that what I've seen up to this point I really have to call into question their accuracy.

    As for the decline in stick shift drivers, I taught my (then) sixteen year old son to drive my Mazda last year and my fourteen year old daughter is already bugging me to start teaching her to drive a stick as well. My son for his part has already taught a dozen of his class mates and another dozen were give cars by their folks with three pedals under the dash and were told, "It's yours when you can drive it." By my son's calculations, nearly a third of the kids in his high school are proficient at driving a stick, and to the best of his knowledge, none of them would be willing to part with their current mounts unless the replacement had a stick as well. Is this part of a new trend toward stirring your own? Don't know, but one can certainly hope. :)
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    Yep, the "Fast & Furious" crowd alright. Hope it works...
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Funny, you throw out a bunch of WAGs and when someone posts real numbers you question their accuracy because you don't happen to like them. Do you have legitimate numbers to reference other than your questionable little survey? I think even BMW, the "ultimate driving machine" only sells about 15% or less MT and they are offered in most of their models.

    Someone is always posting in these forums that "everybody I know drives a stick and I just don't understand why the manufacturers don't offer more of them". Well, it isn't a mystery. Sales numbers don't lie and believe me if kids(or adults) were in dealerships or writing letters demanding more MTs I think they would take note. IMO a lot of people say they want a stick but they don't end up buying one for many reasons other than lack of availibility.

    Also, knowing how to drive a MT and actually wanting to drive one for a daily driver are too different things. I grew up on MTs but long commutes and a lot of stop and go traffic quickly pushed me into auto trans.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Do you have legitimate numbers to reference other than your questionable little survey?"

    Ohhh, is that attitude? I said I didn't; what makes you think I've gotten my hands on them in the last few hours?

    "I think even BMW, the "ultimate driving machine" only sells about 15% or less MT and they are offered in most of their models."

    Sounds about right, but when you consider that a number of their higher end models aren't even available with a stick means that the take rate for those models that do have a manual transmission available is pretty high. I know that my BMW dealership in Bergen County New Jersey (NYC Metro Area) was bragging about how 50% of the 3-Series cars they sold were manual transmission models.

    "Someone is always posting in these forums that "everybody I know drives a stick and I just don't understand why the manufacturers don't offer more of them". Well, it isn't a mystery. Sales numbers don't lie and believe me if kids(or adults) were in dealerships or writing letters demanding more MTs I think they would take note. IMO a lot of people say they want a stick but they don't end up buying one for many reasons other than lack of availibility."

    From my perspective, numbers do in fact lie. I know any number of folks that would like to drive a stick but aren't willing to order their car and wait for it and/or the car they really want isn't available with a stick. My neighbor across the street is a prime example; his new Audi A6 is available in Europe with a stick (and pretty much everywhere else in the world where the A6 is sold), but not here. He felt the A4 was too small and his nearly 35% grade driveway mandates the best of the best of AWD systems given the winters we get here in New Hampshire, so the A6 is what he got and he "settled" for an automatic. So how do the numbers lie? In my experience, a number of ways:

    - Many dealers are reticent to order even one car with a stick for inventory/test drives
    - Many dealers actually try to talk you out of buying a car with a stick, "You don't really want a stick; driving a stick is dumb." One of my favorites is, "You don't really want a stick, the resale value is really poor." Uh-huh, sorry, I'm not buying the car for the chump after me, I'm buying it for ME. Funny thing, when I turned my 530i 5-Speed in at lease end the dealership I turned it in to (not my selling dealer; I'd moved four states away) they really weren't all that keen about taking yet another 530i in and putting it on their used car lot. That is, they really weren't all that keen until they found out that it was a 530i with the Premium Package, Sport Package, upgraded Audio, Xenon headlights, and a 5-Speed. They put it on the lot with a price of $2,000 more than otherwise comparable 530i (automatic) models and sold it in less than a week.
    - Some dealerships are so anti-stick that I've had three dealers actually refuse my down-payment on an order for a car with a stick because they were so sure that in the end I'd force them to eat the car and sell me an otherwise identical car with an automatic.

    Yeah, numbers lie; if sticks were in greater supply and if they were actually marketed the way manufacturers market their models with their wiz-bang CVTs and Dual-Clutch automatics, they'd sell two, maybe three times the number of cars with sticks than they currently do.

    "Also, knowing how to drive a MT and actually wanting to drive one for a daily driver are too different things. I grew up on MTs but long commutes and a lot of stop and go traffic quickly pushed me into auto trans."

    Sorry, gotta say it; sounds like a cop-out to me. Over my driving lifetime I've lived and commuted in San Diego, Los Angeles, San Jose, Atlanta, Detroit, Chicago, New York, and now Boston. I have well over a million miles under my belt and every time I'm saddled with a car with an automatic (typically a rental when I'm on the road), I hate it so much that as much as I love to travel, I cannot wait to get back home and drive a car with a real transmission.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Ohhh, is that attitude? I said I didn't; what makes you think I've gotten my hands on them in the last few hours?

    Yeah, I guess it is a little attitude. So what. Just think it's funny when people try to extrapolate a few opinions in their neighboorhood or circle of friends to represent the US population as a whole. I could take a poll in my neighboorhood and probably come up with just the opposite of the response that you say you got. What does it prove? That we live in different neighborhoods? Hardly scientific or statistically relevant.

    Sales numbers are sales numbers and I just find it hard to believe that all the market research people in all the auto companies have missed this great groundswell of people wanting sticks.

    MTs can be fun and there are solid advantages to them. But most people don't drive for fun. Sorry, if you feel people that drive automatics are "copping out". Copping out from what exactly? The joy of rowing the gears and pushing in the clutch while you creep along at 0-25 mph for an hour and a half in rush hour traffic. If all people had to do was drive the curvies with no particular place to go, yeah, maybe they would want MTs in greater numbers. But that is sadly, not reality.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    edited March 2011
    The Future of the Manual Transmission

    That's where this conversation belongs, since we've lost focus on the Focus.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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  • markus5markus5 Member Posts: 102
    edited March 2011
    Looking at the relationship of the tail pipe and the fuel filler opening in most sedans w/ inline engines, you will find that they are on opposite sides. Not so on this one. Interesting.
    I will be taking my Focus in for lubrication this week. Perhaps there will be new models in the showroom. I'm sure that there will not be many manuals delivered into my region. That is fine with me. I drove all kinds of Sticks for nearly 40 years (the slickest one being on the Probe I bought in 89 which had that very fine Mazda unit in it). A couple of months after purchasing the Focus w/automatic in 03, I injured my left leg and would not have been able to use a clutch.( I must have been prescient ) I have one thing less to be concerned about with the automatic, that is sharing the vehicle. How many others feel as I did, that they are uniquely capable of driving a manual properly ?
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    edited March 2011
    I have one thing less to be concerned about with the automatic, that is sharing the vehicle. How many others feel as I did, that they are uniquely capable of driving a manual properly ?


    Good point! I think most stick drivers stink:

    1. Rev more than necessary & drain more fuel than auto tranny.

    2. Applying throttle in gear while coasting down hill.

    But what I really can't stand are:

    3. Leaving in first gear while waiting for the light to turn green -- leads to extra clutch wear (My '90 Mazda Protege DOHC has over 200k mi & still got nearly 1/2 of the clutch left!)

    4. Release the clutch in slow motion other than engaging 1st & reverse gear.

    5. Lugging w/o realizing it.

    6. Down shift w/o rev matching...

    You name it...
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    edited March 2011
    "3. Leaving in first gear while waiting for the light to turn green -- leads to extra clutch wear"

    How do you figure? When the car is left in gear at a light and the clutch pedal is pushed in, there is zero wear on the clutch friction material.

    "4. Release the clutch in slow motion other than engaging 1st & reverse gear."

    Depending upon the driving situation I routinely ease the clutch out when shifting between forward gears (as in both up and down the range). Assuming you're rev-matching properly, this will actually enhance clutch life versus dumping the clutch on each and every shift between gears.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    edited March 2011
    "3. Leaving in first gear while waiting for the light to turn green -- leads to extra clutch wear"

    How do you figure? When the car is left in gear at a light and the clutch pedal is pushed in, there is zero wear on the clutch friction material.

    Zero wear? Like the engine & tranny are completely disconnected? I hope so. But, w/ the clutch fully depressed, can you shift from neutral into 1st gear when the car is already rolling at fwy speed?

    "4. Release the clutch in slow motion other than engaging 1st & reverse gear."

    Depending upon the driving situation I routinely ease the clutch out when shifting between forward gears (as in both up and down the range). Assuming you're rev-matching properly, this will actually enhance clutch life versus dumping the clutch on each and every shift between gears.

    When shifting from neutral into gear, whether stick or auto, rev matching safely actually requires the engine speed to be at least as fast as the gear. Anything slower is damaging. So rev matching w/ the engine speed slightly higher is playing safe. My mechanic agrees.

    I always release the clutch quickly, other than engaging 1st & reverse gear. & how would you explain my clutch wear of only about 50% per 200k mi.?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    edited March 2011
    "Zero wear? Like the engine & tranny are completely disconnected? I hope so."

    Yes, zero wear and completely disconnected.

    "But, w/ the clutch fully depressed, can you shift from neutral into 1st gear when the car is already rolling at fwy speed?"

    What does that have to do with clutch wear? Engine damage yes, clutch wear, no.

    "I always release the clutch quickly, other than engaging 1st & reverse gear. & how would you explain my clutch wear of only about 50% per 200k mi.?"

    I don't have to explain it; your clutch wear isn't even remotely unusual.

    I'll be happy to continue this debate, however, as Kirstie suggested, the best place for doing so is over here: The Future of Manual Transmissions
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Keeping the clutch depressed at lights will not wear out the friction material, but it will wear out the throw out bearing. It is a bad habit. Put the car in neutral when stopped.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Throw-out Bearings" (now called Clutch Release Bearings) are not the wear item they used to be back in the 1960s. I've worked on many-many cars and have not seen even a single failed Clutch Release Bearing, regardless of mileage or how the clutch was used, on any even remotely modern car from the last three or four decades. In fact, I've seen cars to through two and even three clutch disks with the factory Clutch Release Bearing still in place.

    Said another way, keeping the clutch depressed at a light is a habit that is neither good or bad.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Is the 2012 Focus "good in the clutch"?

    ;) :P
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited March 2011
    dealer lots we can find out how the Focus SE 5-speed stick treats us. I for one want to know...perhaps I'll bop over ta Coeur d' Alene sometime soon to test drive one and find out.

    Ford has some real competition for my buying dollar from this new 2012 Kia Rio sedan and hatch. Watch this YouTube video showcasing the new '12 Rio hatchback. Pretty impressive job by Kia.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Hu4S7-Gm8&feature=player_detailpage

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    You do realize the Rio competes with the Fiesta/Accent/Fit/Versa/etc. crowd right? The Focus/Cruze/Civic/Elantra/Forte/etc. are all a step up and a size bigger than the Rio and it's competitors.

    Unless Kia made the dimensions of the Rio larger now to fit in with the rest of the C segment cars?
  • gambit293gambit293 Member Posts: 406
    According to autoblog, the 2012 Rio is less than one inch longer than the prior version. So it definitely remains in Fiesta/Fit turf.

    Looks nice, btw, though I think the front is a bit too busy.
  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    I think the faster I get to 6th gear the better,because it's overdrive.On my 2010 VW I go from 2nd gear to 5th if i 'm above 30mph. The car does not lug . I even put inCC.On the display I get about 33 mpg.On the hi way 33 at 55mpg. That's not bad for 170HP 5 cyl.
    The VW is my winter beater. I have a 328 I that next month I'll take out of storage. I can go from second to 6th gear but I'm using the gas.
    However, if you can get your car say like in your top gear you are free wheeling and the better gas milage you get. I've never had a clutch go bad.
    I have to be doing something when I'm driving and having a stick is fun.I like to downshift alot too.I don't know what a DSG or dry clutch system does neither, do I care. I know Sticks are being phased out and the excuse they use is that a dsg is run by a computer and gets the same or better than a stick. I don't think you'll see too many German or Italian cars doing that.It's like the upholstery in most cars you get black or gray.Some of these car makers tell you what you get and half the time it's not what you want. So if your good working on cars go OEM. I had a 2008 Mazda I New vaue.I took out the cigarette lighter and replaced it with a 12v knob from Subaru and that dumb antenna I replaced with a shark finn from Acura and I put heated seats in for $800. I dumped it, the RSA eagles were unsafe and wore out @15k and the road noise was bad. Mazda still has the same problems and did away with the lumbar support and their options are exspensive. Have a good day.
  • tim156tim156 Member Posts: 308
    I ordered my Ingot Silver, SEL, 303A package with remote start today. Now the 8+ week wait begins.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    edited March 2011
    I checked the 2012 Focus out on Ford's web site this morning and noticed that the "Build your own" pages for the Focus SE have been updated to include previously unmentioned options like the Keyless Entry Pad, the Exterior Protection Package, and the Focus Graphic Package, and contrary to previous reports which indicated the SE Sport Package was an error on the Ford site, this package is still available.

    I still want Auto-Wipers, Climate Control, and the Sony Audio System in a car with a stick-shift; but maybe the fact that they're still tuning how the Focus can be ordered means there's still hope that one will eventually be able to order a Titanium model with a five or even six speed manual. Hey, one can hope. :)
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited March 2011
    they ought to have a Titanium '12 Focus in the Goldfinger color that includes a 6-speed manual tranny, oughtn't they? Come on Ford!

    Oh...yes, I knew that the 2012 Kia Rio was a class size down...it just looks so righteous ta me that I'm jones-ing for it along with the new world order 2012 Ford Focus SE hatchback in 5-speed form with Ford's most kickin' stereo available in a Focus. Really, ta me the SE hatchback or even sedan with the 5-speed is lookin' good...real good.

    image<
    Really...Ford has done a good job with those wheels...16" and they're lookin good. I may want the compact size car over the Rio class-size. It will take closer scrutinizing and examination. 2 years time is available...I think it can be accomplished! :D

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • gambit293gambit293 Member Posts: 406
    Edmunds' Insideline recently posted its 2012 Ford Focus v. 2011 Chevy Cruze comparo.

    http://www.insideline.com/ford/focus/2012/comparison-test-2011-chevrolet-cruze-l- tz-vs-2012-ford-focus-titanium.html

    Result: Focus soundly stomped the Cruze, although the writer made it a point to note the Cruze's overall decent performance. especially when compared to the Cobalt.
  • gambit293gambit293 Member Posts: 406
    And another comparo at the Boston Globe:

    http://www.boston.com/cars/newsandreviews/overdrive/2011/03/ford_focus_chevrolet- _cruze_review.html

    This one mentions the noteable step-up in quality in both cars, compared to the Korean competitors. The writer also felt the Focus' sport suspension was a tad hard.
  • markus5markus5 Member Posts: 102
    edited March 2011
    " or even(a)sedan" .(?)

    Indeed, looking at pictures only at this point, I think that the sedan is the better looking one. The Hatch from the rear, appears to me much to generic. I know there are optical issues in photographing automobiles. I am looking forward to get to see these cars in person.

    Problem however for me is that for those occaisions when you need to expand the trunk, (a bicycle ), is there a fold down seat in the rear available for the sedan ? (split hopefully).
  • tim156tim156 Member Posts: 308
    The SE, SEL and Titanium have 60/40 fold flat rear seats and the S has a full fold flat rear seat.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    about the '12 Ford Focus sedan looking pretty good. It's true, the hatch looks generic on the sweeping fold around taillight. Have to see the cars in person, including the 2012 Kia Rio hatchback and sedan.

    The 2012 Ford Focus is starting to look more and more like a great choice for a solid compact car.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • puffin1puffin1 Member Posts: 276
    edited March 2011
    The Ti HB will give you 40 mpg if you get a SFE pkg. Sounds like Super Fuel Injection. I hope it doesn't mean $4.00 91 Octane. :confuse:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Super Fuel Economy. Fiesta has a package by the same name.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    The Forte is clearly Kia's entry into the compact segment. With the addition of the new Forte 5-door hatchback for the 2011 model year, it can now be had in three distinct body styles- 2-door coupe (Koup, that is), 4-door sedan or 5-door Hatchback. The Forte is aimed squarely at the new Focus, Mazda3, Civic and Chevy Cruze!

    I've been surprised at how little the Forte 5-door has been publicized since it hit dealer lots last fall!??? Did Kia blow all of their annual marketing budget on all those commercials for the SOUL? They had to save some money by using rodents instead of paid actors in the ads, right? =)
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    edited March 2011
    The SFE Package is only available on the SE 4-door sedan. It includes 16" steel wheels with unique area wheel covers, 16" Low Rolling Resistance Tires, Rear Disc Brakes, Rear Spoiler. It also adds active shutters to the grille intake- they close at higher speeds to reduce aerodynamic drag and open at lower speeds to maximize cooling.

    The package is a $495 option and is only available on the SE 4-door sedan with Automatic Transmission. All options available on regular SE 4-door models are available with the SFE Package, with the exception of the SE Sport Package.

    I'm surprised that the Power Moonroof can be ordered with the SFE Package. It has always been my experience that a large hole in the roof creates substantial drag!

    BTW- those "Unique Aero Wheel Covers" that are part of the SFE Package are HIDEOUS! They would be a deal-breaker for me...I'd just add Low Rolling Resistance Tires to a regular SE 4-door when I could afford to do so and call it a day!

    The SFE is rated at 40mpg highway, but all other Focus models with Automatic Transmission get 38mpg! A 2mpg improvement isn't all that amazing when the car already gets 38mpg highway without any engineering heroics! =)
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think Kia blew their early 2011 marketing budget on the Optima. I am seeing ads for it everywhere, including the Super Bowl. Optima is much more important for Kia than a Forte hatch--even if you and I prefer a Forte hatch.
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