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Comments
This thread is about compact sedans and now he comes up with a 2dr coupe that has a small interior which results in the EPA labeling it a subcompact. Who considers the EPA the final authority? I don't think Ford is marketing is as such and nobody in their right mind thinks the Mustang is a subcompact car......except the EPA. He shoudl try exterior dimensions and see how much it resembles other subcompact cars.
It's simply that the auto makers are making larger and larger bloated pigs and want to make their whales appear as the "new compact" class. Well, I'm not buying it.
Consumers get an easy way to compare vehicles of similar size; businesses and agencies can use the metrics for determining fees (example: tax smaller cars less), internal procurement program requirements (ex: lease compacts for staff, full size for executives/elected officials), reimbursement schedules (ex: compacts are the allowed rental class; employees pay any upcharges to larger classes), etc.
As to them being bloated pigs, in my case it's a good thing. With my wife currently shopping for a compact, this has been the first generation of compact-ish cars that I can find a comfortable driving position in. Normally the driver seat run out of rear travel & I have to recline the seatback to be semi-comfortable, but now cars like the Cruze & Elantra have more than enough seat travel. I can now leave the seatback more vertical, which is not only more comfortable but is better for spine health.
If you refuse to buy anything in the "new compact" class, there are plenty of sub-compacts on the market. Fit, Yaris, Accent, Sonic, and Fiesta to name a few.
i
Bentley - 5456 lbs, 208 in. long, 75 in. wide
Forte - 2791 lbs, 178 in. long, 69 in. wide
Would anyone in their right mind consider these two cars to be in the same class. I think of the Bentley as a very large car and I think of the Forte as a small car. I hope I don't get in trouble with your higher authority....the EPA.
Oh, just for grins, the EPA also consider the Mercedes CL600 and the RollsRoyce Phantom to be compact cars. I guess those manufacturers violate EPA "regulations" by pretending these aren't compact cars. And I guess Edmunds is also criminal for putting a few midsize cars to the right on this page and trying to pawn them off as compacts.
I do like the looks of the Fiesta and the Focus, especially the nice alloys on both, so will be interested to see how they both drive. Have read that the auto tranny in the Focus is having some teething problems but we'll give it a shot. But what really interests me is the Buick Verano, it looks really handsome and has a nice rugged stance but the price is a bit high but hopefully the lower models will not be to de-contented. I know the lack of trunk opener on the key of my Civic LX was a major faux pas as far as I'm concerned...even my '03 Sentra GXE had that feature. Little things like that piss me off, the mid level cars should have a decent amount of bells and whistles as far as I'm concerned!
But it will definitely be a sedan in the compact/sub-compact category period. And yes, she will only consider brand new at this point. And why not, she can afford it and more importantly...she deserves it! I'm just hoping her Mazda holds up until supplies get back to a pre-earthquake status, so she can find the color she wants, which will probably be a charchol one. We wanted it on the Mazda but they could only locate a silver one which after a few days, we were quite happy with!
Again, thanks for all the help here. I am,
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Reliability should be as good as any import, since it really IS an import from Europe with a Chevrolet badge on it. It looks nice as well, and the red tintcoat is stunning. They used to offer this on a couple of Pontiacs and the Corvette. It's a 3 stage process, similar to how paint was done in the 70s, and the color is a very dark red. Almost burgundy.
Cruze LTZ with Sunroof, Navi: $26,265
Elantra Limited with Tech Package: $23,305
Neither currently has rebates. Finance offers are about the same. And both are selling well enough that dealers aren't coming down much if any from sticker.
OK, it's not entirely true that neither has rebates. Hyundai offers military & recent grad rebates on Elantra; Chevy offers neither on Cruze. Cruze does qualify for a few hundred bucks in supplier discounts if you're employee has such a relationship with GM, but it tops out just over $700 so again, similarly equipped high-end trims the Cruze is over $2K more than Elantra.
Most of the design work was done by GM Daewoo (oops, I mean "GM Korea") and the engineering was predominantly handled by Opel. But the Cruze is manufactured in Lordstown, Ohio...so I'd hardly consider it an import.
I'm well aware of the break-in period, and it sometimes needs 4-5K miles in order to achieve optimum fuel economy with almost every vehicle (I've experienced it with Mazda twice now), and I've seen mileage increase 15-20%. Having said all that, I'm not-at-all surprised that the Elantra is getting disappointing fuel economy, well below their ratings.
Considering that I've heard from owners of the Sonata complaining about their poor fuel economy on the standard 4-cylinder (and get downright dismal with the turbo-4, especially in spirited driving), I can see that Hyundai has figured out fooling the EPA testing procedures and disappointing owners in real-world driving, something Toyota did very well over the past two decades...
I've heard a lot of complaints about Toyota(both true and false) but I've never seen a lot of complaints about their real world MPG versus the EPA numbers. In fact, what I've experienced(three Toyotas owned in family) has been as good or better than EPA. My 7 yr old Tundra has alway been right on the EPA numbers and my daughters Camry exceeds EPA and she drives fairly aggressive. Just haven't heard much about Toyota in that regard especially compared to some other brands.
We're talking about ~20K and under cars for the most part in this discussion, and certainly the OP was. Ditch the sunroof and the NAV (get a Garman for $200 instead of $1200+) and the LT2 is quite a lot of car for $20.5K.
note - I pulled up truecar and got a price on the 2LT model. 99% of the stuff they list for options aren't required, really, as it comes pretty well optioned.
Just because a feature isn't useful to you doesn't mean everyone agrees with your opinion. Ever since I've started buying new vehicles I've been of the opinion that I'd rather by a loaded car than a less-equipped car that's one class up in the automaker's lineup. If I buy a well-optioned car I'm more likely to own it longer, which reduces vehicular costs over my lifetime. Buying a stripper and trading it in every 3 years is penny-wise, pound foolish.
Also, why should my wife be penalized by not having features available to her just because she doesn't like to drive larger vehicles?
Portable navs are a non-starters for us. They make the dash messy and if you don't fully hide them every time you park then you're drastically raising the chances of a break-in. My local police dept. has explicitly warned about theft rates with portable navs. The in-dash nav also includes a rear camera which, while not a necessity, is a good safety feature as we live in a neighborhood with small children.
My wife could live without the sunroof, and that would make the Cruze about $900 cheaper. It's standard on the Elantra Limited, which is still cheaper than the Cruze.
When I rented a 2011 in Austin, mid-summer, it did fine for FE, in mostly in-town driving with AC at full blast all the time and some heavy traffic (duh, it's Austin). Mid-30s, right in the EPA range for mix of city/highway (although it was mostly city for me).
The 2011-12 Sonatas I've rented also got FE in the EPA range. I did see 20 mpg on a Sonata on one rental, but that was driving it very short distances for a few days in town, AC on full blast (110 F), and wasn't paying any attention to trying to drive economically. When I took it on the highway @ 70 mph, I got 35 mpg which is right at the EPA number (and the EPA number isn't calculated at 70 mph).
I have a feeling these folks who complain about FE have little or no idea how to drive a car to get maximum FE. They see 40 mpg highway on the window sticker and figure that's what they should get, all the time. That's not the way it works, folks.
Still trying to get that $50 rebate to test drive the Focus but still having no luck. And when I called the local Ford store yesterday to ask about inventory, was told the mid level model of the Focus and the Fiesta were both not in stock at the present time...advised me to try back in a week or so, so i will.
Did show her the new Jetta today and she though it was too large but told her it was the same size as her Mazda3. And I think the SE model is the mid level car in the Jetta lineup.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
http://www.buffalonews.com/business/article571222.ece
The general theme has been echoed by others, e.g. C/D: Civic and Corolla are no longer at the top of the heap, sales-wise (Civic) and otherwise. Cruze is #2 behind Corolla in sales, and Corolla's sales are propped up by a lot of fleet sales. Cruze, Elantra, Focus, and Jetta are new models (although that's not necessarily a good thing for the Jetta) with an all-new Impreza and improved Mazda3 coming soon. Civic is new too but hasn't taken the world by storm, in particular being shown no respect by CR.
One thing for sure: never has there been a better crop of small cars to choose from. There isn't a terrible car in the bunch (ok, there's some I wouldn't put in my garage, like the Corolla and Jetta, but they're not completely awful).
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Likes: Displays (clear digital speedo, nice info display, instantaneous mpg meter, tach); smooth and simple HVAC controls; good back support for driver; fuel economy (34 mpg per computer for my test drive that included suburban streets and urban freeways at rush hour); decent leg room in back; iPod jack and audio controls on the wheel come standard; well-designed steering wheel (small, good diameter); padded door armrests and center armrest.
Dislikes: Jittery and fairly loud ride; cheap interior plastics especially on the dash; lack of thigh support for the driver and rear passengers (rear seat is low); single-piece folding rear seat back; small pass-through from trunk to back seat; non-intuitive audio controls; so-so audio quality (4 speakers); no center armrest in back.
Handling was OK but not as crisp as I remember from the previous-gen Civic. The MT action was OK, although the Focus I drove recently had a smoother shifter and clutch take-up.
Price (a no-haggle dealer) was about the same as the X-Plan price with current incentives for a Focus SE 5MT hatch with more equipment--and better ride/handling and interior. And about $500 more than the MSRP for an Elantra GLS 6MT--with better ride and interior. And I liked the Cruze's ride and interior better than the Civic's also. And all of those cars have a 60/40 rear seat that I prefer.
It's not that the Civic is a terrible car, but for my money there's some cars in line ahead of it.
Positives:
Satisfyingly solid structure, nice steering wheel. Dash materials are better than cars which cost a lot more - still some actual padding on most surfaces. Engine is fairly refined although I wouldn't say it has a lot of power. Trunk release is nice and trunk is nicely finished with a low liftover. Steering is tight and fairly precise. Nice looking outside with gorgeous metallic paint.
Negatives:
Driving position seems too close to pedals even when telescoping the steering wheel all the way out (and I'm only 5'9"). Sits low and I haven't found the height adjustment (if there is one) - need to look for it in daylight. Engine has a bit of a growl under acceleration, although it's not buzzy or vibrating - just a growl sound. Center console is pretty wide so legroom width is tight for the driver. Base seat fabric feels durable but isn't the most soft or attractive.
Overall:
Pretty decent car for a lower-end vehicle. Much better than the Corolla I rented last year, although not as roomy. I'd easily pick this car over a lot of other compact sedans, but I haven't driven them all. I still like the Mazda 3 the best among compact sedans.
What trim is this? I'd guess S or SE.
Is this an automatic? If so how is its operation--is it smooth?
A tall order...maybe but the competition is just that good, these cars need to come to the market place not just as good...but better! Can Nissan and Toyota do it? Time will tell but I am betting that they can and will push the envelope a bit more than Hyundai did!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
What trim is this? I'd guess S or SE.
Is this an automatic? If so how is its operation--is it smooth?
Thanks for the comments. I'll check for the seat height adjust and find out the trim level tomorrow, as I'll have it for a few more days. I may post another update after driving it a while.
Yes, an automatic - can you even rent a stick anywhere? Am I correct from what I've read that this is a DSG-type tranny? I've heard that the VW/Audi one is excellent and the Ford equivalent is not nearly as good.
It will be interesting to see if Toyota ups their game with the Corolla. It's been in Toyota's DNA for decades to have bland driving appliances - not sure they want to mess up their formula, which has generally served them well. Not that I disagree about the Corolla, but a lot of people dont' care - just get reliably from A to B.
So in the redesign, if Nissan can tighten up the steering, freshen the interior and exterior styling (now five years old), and bump up the FE, all while keeping the good points of the car including its competitive pricing, I think they'll have a winner.
Why they used a toggle switch instead of a slapshifter and a manual gate is beyond me though. The only thing giving me pause about the Focus is that tranny. But I also heard there's a TSB for a shift program update, and who knows which cars it's been applied to?
http://youtu.be/cMYRlPOHtNM
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
(P.S. The Titanium is the color we'd choose as we're tired of silver.)
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
I had it about 5 days and put 600 miles on it. According to the computer it got 35 mpg average over the whole trip, which was about 85%highway/15% city.
The suspension is rock solid, slightly firm. The steering is very precise and slightly sensitive/quick acting, though there is not enough feedback. The engine is decent but has a roar on hard acceleration, which sounded like exhaust noise under the car, more than anything.
The tranny was pretty transparent in operation, although I did notice a slight amount of stumbliness at low speeds. I wouldn't call it a deal-breaker. If there's a flash update it might go away, but I barely noticed it anyway.
The seat did have a height adjust, I just assumed that lever was for seat recline. The interior quality is better than many cars at this price point. I thought the front footwell was a bit narrow.
Pluses: suspension, steering, driving position, seat comfort
OK but not outstanding: engine
Minuses: tranny (just barely), tight footwell
It's a pretty nice car for that size class.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Buick Verano
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The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr121511.html
All the new designs are Top Picks, but the old Sentra missed the cut. Interestingly, the score for the Sentra dropped after 2010 MY even though the design of the car hasn't changed.
Even some of the smaller cars got on the list, e.g. Fiesta, Fit, Sonic, Yaris. The new Accent and Rio didn't make it... side protection not good enough. Something for Hyundai/Kia to work on.
Based on this, and looking at the details behind the scores, plus my test drives to date, the Focus SE and Impreza hatches go up to the top of my shopping list. Elantra and Cruze did well on the crash tests also, but I'd rather get a hatch all else being equal. Mazda3 Skyactiv 6MT will get strong consideration, if the ride quality is acceptable (haven't driven it yet). Fit could be an option as it's really fun to drive with a stick and exceptionally versatile, but the noise level inside is a mite high for my taste.
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Anyone know what may be causing this problem?
(same link again)
It has the Verano listed as midsize, so sorry, it doesn't belong here.
I explained before that the EPA puts the Bentley Continental Flying Spur(about $200k by the way) in the same midsize category as the Chevy Cruze. Nobody in their right mind would say they are in the same category. One is almost twice the size/weight as the other and is marketed as a large luxury barge while the other is marketed as a small economy car. Why would anyone want them to be in the same size catergory for discussion purposes? Just because the EPA says they have the similar passenger/cargo volume.
I don't think anyone(besides you possibly) would argue that the Elantra, Corolla, Mazda3, Cruze and the Buick Verona(Cruze based) don't belong in the same discussion category. But the EPA has some in compact and some in midsize. Totally silly. In fact the Mazda3 sedan is compact and the Mazda3 5 door is midsize according to the EPA. Again, silly.
Also, with more and more "large compacts" hitting the road, we might need to redefine what this class of vehicle really should be. The 2012 Jetta at 112 cu.ft. of volume is a good example - as it is significantly larger than a new Focus or Corolla. Almost a size class larger. As other manufacturers build these "mid-size compacts", a new C/D segment may be born.
The new Elantra and Jetta are family size sedans in Europe. The paradigm is shifting in the U.S.
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Verano
Wheelbase 2685 mm 105.7 in
Length 4671 mm 183.9 in
Width 1814 mm 71.4 in
Height 1483 mm 58.4 in
Weight 1497 kg 3300 lb
Volvo 850 wagon
Wheelbase 2665 mm 104.9 in
Length 4660 mm 183.5 in
Width 1760 mm 69.3 in
Height 1415 mm 55.7 in
Weight 1330 kg 2932 lb
Yes, that 850 Wagon is/was smaller in every measurement.
What really happened is that so few cars fit in the compact and sub-compact categories simply because they aren't being made that small any more. The same thing happened in the 60s, you'll remember. Cars became truly massive to the point where a normal sized car from the 50s suddenly looked like a toy by comparison.
The Accord is a good example of a "tweener" car. It's considered a "mid-sized" sedan by most people, but is long and roomy for its class. Another example is the Verano, and also cars like the Elantra and Jetta: smaller than today's "mid-sized" cars outside, but with the interior room of a mid-sized car per EPA numbers.
As cars have been upsized, our definition of what a "compact" is and what a "mid-sized" car is have changed also. We could continue to use definitions from 35 years ago. Or we could adapt to the reality of today's automotive market.
Another reason is safety impact standards. It's still easier to protect occupants with a little room and bulk around them. You have to have somewhere to put all those crushzones and airbags. And still another reason is that longer wheelbases usually provide a smoother ride than a short wheelbase and most people like smooth rides.
http://wot.motortrend.com/2012-detroit-2013-dodge-dart-aims-for-small-car-bulls-- - eye-starts-at-15995-154353.html
Looks like quite an improvement over the Caliber! American style (hints of Focus in there IMO) with Alfa Romeo underpinnings.
And I love that Dodge brought back the old Dart name. That was a nice compact in its day, with the ol' reliable Slant Six.