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Can Honda get its mojo back?
There's been a long running thread on Toyota being on the mend. I didn't see any similar topic for Honda.
As a long time Honda fan, I think they've lost their way and become complacent. IMHO their best current vehicles are the Fit, Civic, and CRV. Most of their other vehicles have become too big, too bloated, too bizarre in styling, as well as softer. And the interior quality is suffering as well. Competitors like Ford and Hyundai are going to eat Honda's lunch in the next few years unless Honda can step it up.
Acura is also a mess. In the mid 2000's they had one of the best looking cars on the road in the TL, and one of the best value luxury compacts in the TSX. Now those two cars are ugly and bloated. They got worse than the cars they replaced.
Honda is the company that had the first hybrid, had the first compact SUV, had the CVCC engines, had class-leading fuel economy. What have they done lately that is at all leading?
As a long time Honda fan, I think they've lost their way and become complacent. IMHO their best current vehicles are the Fit, Civic, and CRV. Most of their other vehicles have become too big, too bloated, too bizarre in styling, as well as softer. And the interior quality is suffering as well. Competitors like Ford and Hyundai are going to eat Honda's lunch in the next few years unless Honda can step it up.
Acura is also a mess. In the mid 2000's they had one of the best looking cars on the road in the TL, and one of the best value luxury compacts in the TSX. Now those two cars are ugly and bloated. They got worse than the cars they replaced.
Honda is the company that had the first hybrid, had the first compact SUV, had the CVCC engines, had class-leading fuel economy. What have they done lately that is at all leading?
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"The score card takes into account a variety of factors as measured by Consumer Reports, including on-road performance, reliability and fuel-economy."
Honda Tops Magazine's 2011 Car Rankings
Hard to argue with that - AFAIK their reliability, in particular, is still tops. But their Accord sales are slowly losing ground to Toyota and others. In the '90's wasn't the Accord the top seller? I know we had a '92 Accord, and I currently drive an '05 TL. Although the TL has more goodies and is more luxurious, the '92 Accord's interior was better designed and built, and it didn't rattle at all, unlike my TL. And it also had tauter handling and better steering than the TL.
I'm also perceiving that this is a trend that is downhill, although they haven't fallen too far yet. And certainly Toyota's recent problems haven't hurt Honda. But with Ford and Hyundai coming on strong, will Honda step up? I don't see them trying nearly as hard as those two.
I've had three Accords but right now I can name maybe half a dozen crs in its class that I'd look at if I were buying as opposed to 10 years ago when I would have just automatically bought another Accord.
Meanwhile they seem to have decided that the old engineering ahead of the competition was old hat and stopped doing it.
THey are still fine, dependable cars but that alone won't cut it.
The Focus and Elantra will be much tougher competition than the compacts the Civic has been competing against. The Cruze, while okay, doesn't look like a home run to me. The next Mazda 3 could also be a worthy competitor, and it will be interesting to see whether Toyota takes more risk with the '13 Corolla. Oh, and then there's the new Jetta, which is good on value, but less than great, overall.
Wish we knew more about the changes they will make to the SI.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Wish we knew more about the changes they will make to the SI.
Don't forget they used to have the CRX, Prelude, S2000. Now we have the Crosstour.
Michelle
Big break: "In 2006, when Acura challenged company designers to create a car that filled a hole in the market, my sketch for the exterior won — and became the blueprint for the ZDX [above], which went on the road last year."
So Honda took a chance with her and it didn't work. But for years Honda designs have been either criticized for being dull and bland (even though they still drive very well) so when they finally took a risk with the ZDX (or other models like the Element, the new TL, the new Odyssey, etc...) it has those same people saying that the disgns are now ugly, bloated and overweight...
My thinking is that alot of these people just don't like Honda and won't be pleased no matter what...
Btw, the article mentions Michelle now works for Government Motors...
Also, Hondas focus is on fuel economy... even with the fun stuff. The Civic is expected to rate at 39mpg highway with an even more efficient model that will get 41mpg. They will also continue to offer the class exclusive Natural gas powered version and a hybrid, maybe even an all electric.
Lastly, they have cut significant weight from the car this time around. IMO, this is the greatest change the Civic line as well as Honda as a whole can do to "get it's mojo back" :shades:
I think you reached the wrong conclusion, based on an incorrect assumption. First, we do like Honda, based on Hondas and Acuras we've owned or own (I have a TL). Second, we very much want Honda to succeed, by designing and building cars that drive and handle better than the competition, look really sharp, and provide excellent value. Those characteistics differentiated Honda and Acura for most of us, but we're simply saying that recent models have lost these attributes, while retaining reliability.
Third, while we admire Honda/Acura for taking some styling risks, I feel that, unfortunately, their risks have largely failed. In the meantime, it seems that they've been more risk averse in their engineering (eg. no direct injection or, until very recently, six-speed automatics). In the past, Honda led the charge in engineering.
Didn't know this. Good news!
What I'd really like to see is a car that creates the buzz that the third and fourth generation Accord did. Those were beautiful, fun vehicles.
And, competition is intense. I never, EVER thought people would actuallty buy Korean cars after their dismal initial offerings but people do! They have short memories and, yes, the Korean makes have certainly improved.
And, a lot of people really want to buy "American" and they are taking a second look at cars that they wrote off years ago when the Big 3 were building junk. Ford, especially has taken huge strides in quailty control.
So, not only for Honda, it's going to be a tough marketplace with competition like never before.
There's still quite a bit of variety. You can't say that the new Sonata looks like the Fusion, for example.
And the current Accord is still ugly, not to mention the TL.
Acura is another story. I have no idea what they were thinking when they baiscally ruined the looks of all of their cars. The ugly "beak" front ends and the styling of the MDX's.
The Sonata is another "me too" cookie cutter car.
I guess we can disagree.
While not bold, I thought the early Accords and all the '90's Accords looked pretty good. The early 00's Accords were bland but not ugly. The late '00 Accords were bland and the 2 year refresh before the current generation actually was an improvement. The current Accord is much larger and has weird bloat on the taillights. IMHO the lines don't flow very well and this model won't stand the test of time as well as ANY of the previous generations.
Now conversely, I see the current (soon to be replaced) Civic as a very nice looking car, and from what photos I've seen the new one reminds me a bit of the MB C class, which is a gorgeous design.
But Honda has lost it's way just like Toyota & their name alone will just not guarantee futures sales success...they need to bring to market product that people actually want. Hyundai has learned this & it shows while Ford is getting there. Something has to happen & soon as folks like us who are looking to swap out our current ride want something fresh & exciting. This class finally wants all the goodies the other more expensive classes have had for years. And it's about time with the price of gas & upkeep, economy cars will soon be the dominant class size in America, similar to the rest of the world!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
You're probably right, but I hope someone keeps making big cruisers for those of us who live 50 miles from anywhere. I didn't develop an interest in Hondas UNTIL they "grew up".
I do agree that Honda can't rest on it's laurels.
As far as the spy shots of the new Civic, I would wait for the real car to appear.
Since I always look for the good in folks, I don't know how to read your statement, so I'll wait to hear back from ya.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
My take on the topic? Honda used to have an identity (an engineering 1st company, focused on light, efficient cars of high quality (often over engineered) with a "sporty" bent. Sporty as in slick manual trannys, the "bones", sharp steering, and more handling focused.
recently, they tried to become more mainstream (dare i say, toyotaesque?), and the leadership became more marketing focused, not engineering. Some corners cut, in a sense dumbed down.
similar in a way to what VW is doing, americanizing their product. bigger, more bloated, and softer.
acura is a whole nother story. I think there they felt the need to pull a BMW and get edgy somehow with the styling, to create an in your face image. Don't think that worked though.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I actually was looking at the (just out) 2006 Civic when I got the Accord. Like the civic drive, size was OK, but hated the drivers seat. total deal breaker. But, I really liked the accord. And ended up with a killer deal on a left over stick model. the odyssey we had a year earlier, and that won out for 2 main reasons. Better seats (front and 3rd row), and moonroof. Didn't know about the fragile trannys though at the time!
fast forward, and right now, the only thing Honda makes that is vaguely interesting to me is the CR-V. Odyssey styling went odd, plus they are crazy expensive now for the good ones, but mostly, not interested in another van.
and the Accord? Not even on my list at this point. to big, bloated and not very good looking. Fit is really the only thing that seems to be what Honda used to be, but they seem to have nailed the utility but not the road manners.
the truck stuff seems silly to me. Also the crosstour. Why not a nice clean euro wagon?
Acura, their prior generations were great (TL and TSX). styling though, down the dumper. the TSX at least is a nice car. Can't see myself buying either one of those overpriced things though.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Exactly my problem with the current Accord. It used to be the new design on an Accord was a big deal- something to be anticipated. The current one doesn't live up to that in the least.
So for example, I was (semi) surprised to shocked to find out that a MY or two ago that the average age of a Civic owner/driver was between 39 -44 years old.
And I'll admit also, Ford is the only American car company with the vision to know that Korea is the Japan of the '70's & '80's with each new product better than the last. Just look at the #'s, which I've always said don't lie. Forget the rental fleet #'s for a moment and see what's left...the new innovators are Hyundai/Kia & Ford. So with this new perspective, think we'll have no choice but to try the Focus & Fiesta for the wife's next ride. To do so would be just dumb, plain & simple. And who knows, she may be so impressed with the Ford products that she just might buy one!!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
The Korean Stigma remains at least for the time being. As used cars, it seems that few people want them. They bomb at the auctions.
If you talk to anyone in the business (excpet the stores that sell them) they will tell you the same thing.
Why?
I think they came to market unprepared. The initial offerings weren't good cars and they tried to elbow themselves into an already crowded market.
Then, Daewoo showed up and they were going to show the world how to build and sell cars. They too, didn't build good cars and few people were interested in what they had to offer.
Now...times change and the tons of dollars that the Korean government have thrown into building quality cars has resulted in a MUCH better product especially from Hyundai. I'll be the first to say this. they are building some very nice cars that seem to hold up quite well.
Still, for the time being anyway, the stigma remains.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
It is a tad oxymoronic that Honda has achieved its goal of (highest) customer ratings of one of the BEST, yet seemingly is losing its "edge".
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
I suspect they do.
And the Accord...to bloated and Camryesque now...a good "appliance" with stellar mileage, reliability & fit & finish but BORING like the Camry. The two "go to cars" when fun and style are not part of the equation! But the Sonata & Optima have left them both in the dust. Honda & Toyota are gonna need something simply spectacular with their next generation of these two fine cars...time to push the envelope, BIG TIME guys!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
I'm kinda that way myself. This is where Honda excels.
I can't imagine buying a Ford becasue I like the tailights better but I suppose it happens.
But really now, in your days of Honda sales you didn't NOT sell a Honda to a customer because they happen to like Honda tail lights? (for example)
I know when I bought an 04 Civic even with Honda's theretofore's reputation and quality and reliability, etc. I still over amped a bit in the research department. I knew for example 05 MY would be the last and PROBABLY the best of THAT generation. I got it late in the MY so the price was more compelling than the then new 05 MY. 7/8 MY's later has amply confirmed/validated that decision and I am still very happy with it. We bought it for commuting and it does commuting like a trooper.
Lucky I had a year or two grace period/s. I understand that beginning MY 06, they changed the rear end's suspension system/components. I have since read in passing that the 06 MY's rear end ate tires. It of course underwent a TSB or recall. BUT a fair percentage of them still had tracking and wear problems. Some of those are unsolvable to this day.
Your talking new design against (in the Accord's case) a car that came out in late 2007. Even so,, isn't it maybe a bit much to say the Accord has been "left in the dust"? Don't think the older design stacks up too unfavorably in a comprehensive comparison..... though it could be quieter, could use better brakes, etc. Resale value of used 8th gen Accords in my area is ridonkulus....
On another note, some people who've owned older Hondas aren't happy that they've gotten bigger.....others (like me) are buying them now that they're not "too small".
Hitting the nail on the head again! Why is it that these things, which were present in my first Accord 30 years ago are still issues? They fixed most other issues - rust, bummer stereos (though they are only up to average ones now).....
1. Waht's that funny smell? (no smell)
2. Oh, I don't like that dashboard! (2006 and newer Civics)
3. I don't like...headlights...grill...door handles...etc.
I got to the point I tuned everything out.
New model....
1. Oh, I LOVE the changes Honda made!
2. WHY did they screw it up?
Color...
" Oh honey, isn't that a beautiful color?"
or
" Oh YUCK, look at that horrible color...WHAT was Honda thinking?"
What are you talking about? I have never had a brake pulsation on any of our Hondas. Our 2003 CRV with 54,000 miles still has better than half of it's original pads remaining.
And using aftermarket pads won't do anything.
Brake pulsation comes from warped rotors and this applies to ALL cars.
Rotors warp for several reasons.
1. An abusive driver (usually the case)
2. Overtightening the lug nuts (often)
3, Driving through deep cold standing water with hot brakes.
I've never had a rotor machined either.
I just did a look back app 2 years ago to see how I would have faired with the MY 2006 Honda Civic, which I had read in passing was the next generation from the 2004/2005 MY generation.
My guess would be that a small percentage of cars were affected which is usually the case.
Looking back, should've bought in year four, as that's when the mid cycle refresh is usually done. And the aux input would've been nice to have also. But I made lemonade from lemons!
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)