A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

srs_49 · February 2013

You wouldn't tolerate someone else (like me) deciding that for you would you?

Our customers do that all the time, when it comes time to negotiating our rates.

So then, how do I, the consumer, determine if $80/hr, $100/hr, or $130/hr is a reasonable rate?

srs_49 · February 2013

One of the questions will be; Would you want your son/daughter to become a technician in your shop? Yes or No

Well, I've answered that question for my profession - electrical engineering. I told all my kids NO, don't become an engineer. While I have had great success, both financially and in having a job that I really like, I do not see the same future for them as I had. Outsourcing is one issue. Along with that is that in many companies, even so-called high tech ones, the engineering dept is considered a cost center rather than a resource, and that engineers are just another fungible resource.

My son just finished his residency last year and started his medical practice. His income expectations have been cut in half from what those in his field were making 9 years ago when he started medical school. While he is still making a good salary, he has doubts as to whether or not it will be worth all the pain and costs he went through.

stever · February 2013

By the way, it's not over. (Boston Globe)

The decision you linked to is being appealed and they've filed a second suit against Tesla. Maybe the Right to Repair crowd will join in with Musk.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

If the Nada win, how much would that raise the price of the Telsa to the consumer? 20%?? 30%???

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

NADA has heavily influenced state legislatures to protect themselves.

stever · February 2013

A link I saw the other day estimated 6% iirc.

So, about $3,600 for a Tesla S.

They have 13,000 orders booked. Let's assume 10,000 of them sell this year.

So there's $36,000,000 out of consumer pockets into dealer pockets for a niche model. Even 1% is a big number. [Edit - an FTC study in 89 found "that the (franchise laws have had a detrimental effect on consumers, increasing prices by about 6 percent." (pdf link)]

You can do your own exercise with the Big Three.

Now we can think about how Tesla will handle warranty claims. One thing they could do is open up shops where they sell lots of cars and hire their own mechanics and "really" factory train them. If state laws let them.

Wiki says you must have your Tesla inspected by a Tesla certified tech annually. If you don't or if you get it repaired by an indy, you forfeit the warranty.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Wiki says you must have your Tesla inspected by a Tesla certified tech annually. If you don't or if you get it repaired by an indy, you forfeit the warranty.

That's a "who cares" IMO. First it makes absolutely no sense to invest anything in the way of time to study or for the tools for a car that has about a .000001% chance of ever visiting our shop. (about 1 in 100,000,000, or something close to the chances of winning the powerball)

Now we can think about how Tesla will handle warranty claims. One thing they could do is open up shops where they sell lots of cars and hire their own mechanics and "really" factory train them. If state laws let them

They would have to sell lots of those cars to support a shop. It would make sense to cross train their techs to be able to support other manufacturers EV's and hybrids in order to try have a steady workflow. Even then they would probably have to use a tiered labor rate.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

I could not, in good conscience, encourage him to become a professional automotive technician.

Sad isn't it? If someone likes to be challenged to learn something new all of the time, there are few careers that can even come close to what we have to do today. It should be a very rewarding career but all people usually find in it is unsecure dead end jobs....

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

I don't see Tesla as being around too much longer anyway. Don't get me wrong, it's a great product, but you can't survive selling so few units and to ramp up requires enormous, staggering amounts of capital.

As a GM executive once said of Henry Kaiser when he decided to go into the auto business in the 1940s, and announced his "We have X millions in capital to begin!"----the remark was

"give that man one poker chip"

thecardoc3 · February 2013

http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/how_to_make_a_small_fort- une_on_wall_street_start_with_a_large_one/

thecardoc3 · February 2013

So then, how do I, the consumer, determine if $80/hr, $100/hr, or $130/hr is a reasonable rate

To be blunt about it, without all of the details you can't. Which is why it isn't being honest to even try.

busiris · February 2013

My son just finished his residency last year and started his medical practice. His income expectations have been cut in half from what those in his field were making 9 years ago when he started medical school. While he is still making a good salary, he has doubts as to whether or not it will be worth all the pain and costs he went through.

My daughter finishes her clinical rotations out on the West Coast in April of this year.

The medical environment is one of rapid and dramatic change, but on the bright side, any position that requires direct patient contact is one that is difficult to export overseas, which I define as a bright spot in today's employment scenario...

stever · February 2013

That's a "who cares" IMO.

It's a "who cares" because it applies to GM and Ford too and any newcomer that wants to try to set up a car business in the US (Tata or Chery, for example).

Tesla was used as the example because we were talking about the dealers association in MA suing Musk.

Let's assume Ford wants to do their own warranty service and take that chore away from the dealers (because dealers can charge them "retail rates" in some states under state law), and let's assume that their existing franchise agreements would allow them to do so.

If the dealers don't like that idea, they'll just go to their state legislature and make it illegal for manufacturers to directly furnish warranty service. Dealers in Maine did something similar in '03 after the courts ruled against them. (SSRN)

Forget Tesla, this stuff can happen with the majors. And it pads the dealers' pockets at the expense of consumers.

bartbarter · February 2013

Cardoc I'm curious. I understand what you mean, but... perhaps if a going average rate is say $100, and one looks at Yip or Yelp (?

) and sees one is rated higher or lower, wouldn't that be a fair indicator of $110 or $90?

thecardoc3 · February 2013

http://yelp-sucks.com/tell-your-yelp-story/

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57535140-93/yelp-clamps-down-on-paid-reviews-wi- th-new-consumer-alert/

http://www.submitexpress.com/yelp-negative-review-repair.html

http://www.prweb.com/releases/paid-yelp-reviews/craigslist-sting/prweb10077116.h- tm

xwesx · February 2013

I agree on both counts. I have several friends who are techs. Great guys, but they're only satisfied with their career when they're actually working on cars. When the day is done, they complain about the circumstances.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

It's very easy to tell padded or false reviews on Yelp. All you have to do is read with some degree of attention.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

It's very easy to tell padded or false reviews on Yelp.

:confuse:

All you have to do is read with some degree of attention

That's asking a lot of the "average" consumer.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Great guys, but they're only satisfied with their career when they're actually working on cars

I just came from presenting a class for about forty guys who all fit into the main group of loving to actually fix cars, but hate a lot of the nonsense that goes with it.

When the day is done, they complain about the circumstances

This was an advanced diagnostic class and in the middle of it one of the case studies has a screen capture where codes are pulled from all of the vehicle modules, but the customers reported issue is only an engine performance one. I purposely don't point out all of the codes and hope that the class lets me we slip right past that slide and concentrate on the engine problem. Then after that is successfully dealt with I add the scenario that has the customer immediately complain about the instrument cluster having an issue.

By pulling and documenting all of the codes, which includes the communication codes related to the instrument cluster a shop doesn't get blind-sided and end up "getting a bad review" for something they didn't do wrong anyway. If they don't pull codes from all of the modules, then they don't know about the instrument cluster problem and they could likely get trapped into having to fix it for free. Making them practice this is really important and leads to satisfied customers, even if it means the customer is going to have to get more work done than just what they brought the vehicle in for. It all comes down to documentation and communication. if they don't want to fix the cluster problem, that's fine, its their car. The shop needs a record of the vehicles overall condition as much as is reasonably possible.

stever · February 2013

lol, and then the customer review will read:

"I took my car to Joe's Garage for a simple engine miss and they tried to tell me my instrument cluster was broken and wanted an extra $400 to fix it. Avoid these crooks like the plague."

bartbarter · February 2013

an example. No consumer in their right mind would say, ok whatever you want to charge!

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

So many of these issues wouldn't have become issues if the shop talked to the customer in the right way. I don't think it's an accident that the very best shops I know have very good skills in relating to people.

There's even one shop that proves to be an exception to the rule--they are rude, beer-guzzling, loud and obnoxious, but so strange and funny that people love going there just to be part of the freak show----and they repair BMWs for those clients who can cast aside some prejudices and wait for what turns out to be good repairs at a very reasonable price.

Not a recommended business model, but it goes to show, you can't generalize entirely about repair shops.

stever · February 2013

I was going to guess you were talking about the Magliozzi Brother's garage of Click & Clack fame.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

I'm not so sure they fixed cars very well---much of their advice strikes me as amusing but rather lame. The BMW Brothers I mentioned are far more scary, but time and time again, against all odds, they've stuck with difficult problems and fixed them. I remember BMW telling me that the driveshaft on my 7 Series was not repairable, and by golly, the BMW Brothers fixed it for 1/4 the price---they had figured out a way to beat the system. It was for guys like these that the term "derelict genius" was invented.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

I took my car to Joe's Garage for a simple engine miss and they tried to tell me my instrument cluster was broken and wanted an extra $400 to fix it. Avoid these crooks like the plague."

The alternative is;

I took my car to Joe's Garage for a simple engine miss and they broke my instrument cluster while they had my car. Avoid these crooks like the plague."

The shop shouldn't be wrong both ways, but the consumer advocates don't have the knowledge and training required to know the difference and advise the consumers appropriatey.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

So your praising them for living down to the stereotype, and not knowing why they shouldn't have attempted to repair the driveshaft?

Thanks for yet another example of why consumers don't know who really to go to. You just tried to make heros out of hacks.

stever · February 2013

they broke my instrument cluster while they had my car

Right, forgot that one. :-)

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

But they aren't hacks---they drilled out the old u-joint and machined it for a replacement joint--so the "non-replaceable" u-joint was thus replaced and worked just fine throughout my ownership period. I give them credit for figuring out how to do this prior to doing it on my car.

If they are "hacks", then so too is every person who markets an aftermarket improvement for any component deemed "not serviceable" by the automaker.

We all know that "not serviceable" is often a term created by legal departments, not engineers.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

There's even one shop that proves to be an exception to the rule--they are rude, beer-guzzling, loud and obnoxious,

Is the consumer who reads this supposed to accept it as desirable?

and they repair BMWs for those clients who can cast aside some prejudices and wait for what turns out to be good repairs at a very reasonable price.

So price is more important than image, or even road testing their car without being under the influence?

Not a recommended business model, but it goes to show, you can't generalize entirely about repair shops.

But you are reccomending the drunkard's business model, and then throwing in the idea that the consumer can't generalize entirely. This is the kind nonsense that we have to deal with that needs to stop.

But they aren't hacks---they drilled out the old u-joint and machined it for a replacement joint--so the "non-replaceable" u-joint was thus replaced and worked just fine throughout my ownership period.

They got lucky. How did they re-balance that shaft after they did that? How much centrifugal force was their repair designed to withstand? Was that driveshaft really "safe" to reach its designed maximum rotational speed after the u-joint replacement?

We all know that "not serviceable" is often a term created by legal departments, not engineers.

Obviously "we" don't.

xwesx · February 2013

Ingenuity drives advance. I would not go so far as to denounce anyone for such creativity, regardless of their persona or other habits because everything we choose to do pays us back eventually.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

"How did they re-balance that shaft after they did that?"

I sorta thought their repair was pretty much right-on. I don't see why the shaft would have to be rebalanced. One would assume they pressed the yoke in true on each side, and surely yoke manufacturing molds would result in a piece that is pretty uniform? Out of the box balance of the yoke would be one their criteria in a finished product given its intended purpose in life.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

I sorta thought their repair was pretty much right-on. I don't see why the shaft would have to be rebalanced.

And that's the trap. You go along for years doing it one way, and then the assembly changes and the way it used to be done isn't proper any more.

For the prices that a reman shaft can be gotten, it isn't worth the risk or liability to do that in house. The following site has very good reasons to explain the details that they go into when performing a remanufacture of the driveshaft.

http://driveshaftspecialist.com/Import%20html/BMW.html?gclid=CJCft4X0uLUCFYVQOgo- dgjAANA

If someone really cannot afford to, or justify repairing a car like a BMW correctly, then they should have bought the Suzuki or Kia instead.

blueiedgod · February 2013

This is my take on things:

People are EXTREMELY lazy! An educated customer is not going to fall for muffler bearings, or blinker fluid, and will quickly spot a crooked mechanic. However, someone who does not want to invest the time to actually understand how a 150 year old piece of technology works, will be taken advantage of.

I am not an automotive mechanic, far from it, but learned the general concepts of automotive mechanics, because I have been taken advantage of. It does not take a PhD level of understanding, however, it is most often the PhD types who are completely clueless.

If they were able to get their highly sophisticated research degrees, they should have the drive and hunger for knowledge to understand the simplest of the machines: cars. They don't neccessarily need to buy the tools and get dirty if they don't want to, but if they exhibit a smallest insight into the workings of a car, a mechanic, even a crooked one, will not be giving them a line of BS.

But, they are most often, are too lazy to learn something new, and would rather watch American Idol or other mindless TV than just learn something new.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

We were planning to balance it by sending it up to Equipoise, but after making one adjustment (a 90 degree rotation) and assuring proper lubrication of the splines, we ended up with such a slight low rpm vibration from 0 to 10 mph as to be virtually undetectable. In fact, within a week or so I had completely forgotten about it.

All I'm saying is this--tell me if you can argue against it:

Ultimately, a mechanic's resume exists on the end of his wrench---one can talk the big talk, one can present the spiffy shop, but in my book the award goes to the man who successfully repairs the problem, and who fixes the car that STAYS fixed.

If he can accomplish that, I don't care what he looks like

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Ingenuity drives advance. I would not go so far as to denounce anyone for such creativity,

I recall what occurred a number of years back when a guy promoted cutting a hole through the body of a Camaro in order to replace a fuel pump instead of dropping the rear axle part way, removing the fuel tank and fixing the car correctly. Professional technicians had no problem telling him that his ingenuity was not only improperly applied but he had now placed the owner and occupants of the car at an unneccesary risk. In no shortage of words, we let him know that his aproach wasn't creative, it was destructive and he should have been ashamed for butchering that customers car.

We have had to deal with the problem that we have no standards as to what is a proper repair and what is a hack job. Trying to do those u-joints, without all of the correct equipment and experience is not an approved repair and it should not have been done. Without the correct equipment to ensure that the joint was set at the yoke's centerline, and then properly re-staked the driveshaft would be very unlikely to run on it's true centerline, and that would put undue stresses on the rear differential and the transmission output shaft. Fools rush in where wise men know not to tread.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

they should have the drive and hunger for knowledge to understand the simplest of the machines: cars

If that's what you think, then you don't know, what you don't know. They used to be reasonably easy to work on, but even that didn't make them simple decades ago. The robotics onboard today make them very complex machines.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

Well, you're preaching to the choir here. I am king of improvisation in these parts. And that is not to say I repair with bail wire, duct tape and a hammer. With some of my repairs, while they rarely can look as original as the original, they sometimes do work better. When I wire something, I solder and silicone, then tape the joints if they are in a corrosion prone area. That's better than OEM right there..
I can give you another example too...I had to repair my Lobo wood hauler years ago. It's a 4WD articulating mining machine, load/man hauler. Needed a new master cylinder. The original long long LONG gone. The small reservoir was cast into the top of it. Anyway, I went to the local wreckers, picked up an old Datsun master cylinder that looked to be in quite good, non corroded condition. In order for it to fit I had to reposition everything. And in doing that I had to create a support pc that literally held the pushrod true to the master cylinder. The old cast one had a bushing that it slid thru and was recessed quite a ways into the MC. Poor design really as the swing angle to the brake pedal put a lot of sideways influence on the rod. Probably what took it out too. With my new design (I used an L bracket drilled and bolted it into the proper place). Then used an old pc of hyfax (sp?) old snowmobile suspension slider material. (I'm a recycler before the term was used common-place). I cut off a pc sized just right, driilled it true to the pushrod dia, drilled and recessed bolt heads into the face so nothing could grab your pant tails and Bob's your Uncle, created a new sleeve/bushing and it too was actually better than the new original design. Brakes never before felt so good, fluidly smooth or powerful.

I think there is some Mc Gyver in us all to a certain extent, but some have more refined parameters of it than others. My Aunt, rest her Soul, and who never married, used to try to fix everything with scotch tape, a hammer and flathead screw driver. So even women's take on things fixable is a lot different in most cases than a man's.

I think your BMW deal though is quite common on U joint re and re's...the chance of being outta phase. Ya got a 50/50 if you aren't careful and since Murphy is always looking over your shoulder..well..them's your chances..

isellhondas · February 2013

I've replaced quite a few u joints and I've never had a driveshaft rebalanced nor did I ever have a vibration afterwards.

There are a lot of shortcuts that can be successfully taken that work just fine. It's the fear of a comeback that stops some shops from taking slight risks.

I know guys like your BMW Brothers and they usually turn out great work.

xwesx · February 2013

I'm not saying that a hack job isn't a hack job. I'm simply recommending that one let the results speak for themselves.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

So I checked out that site. Seems like good folk. Capable.
But I'll never understand when a business invests so much to start up a business like that and yet not have someone literate proofread the site before giving it the go-ahead.

Numerous places they had "or" when they meant "our". And used "to", when they meant "too". Now of course some customers won't care and others still won't realize, but I would think a business would want to portray their business in the most professional light possible. And remember, especially that particular business because they cater to BMW owners..many of whom are perhaps more educated in areas of literacy compared to the average sideways baseball cap wearing Caprice owner..

Of course, in the end it's all about the job and the product, is is really good? Of course that matters more than grammar, but like I say, if you want to intro/ increase your business, the MOST affordable and easy way to enhance it is simply hire a proofreader before millions of potentially critical eyes make fun of you and judge your work/product by their site.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2013

No!----cutting a hole in a car to replace a fuel pump is not ingenuity, it's butchery.

We're talking about two different things here.

I even saw, with my own eyes, a Mercedes Gullwing with the tubular frame cut and re-welded to facilitate a repair----YIKES! :surprise:

I understand why a shop wouldn't want to improvise but what did I have to lose, or what did the shop have to lose, in this case?

BMW wants me to throw away (!!) a perfectly good, two-piece, beautifully made driveshaft because a u-joint is bad, and sock me for a new one.

The BMW Brothers had failed, what have I lost? The driveshaft merely goes to the same junk pile it was directed to by BMW.

And what have I gained if it succeeded? About $600 in my pocket.

There's a difference between clever and reckless.

Another situation----re-threading the crank pulley shaft on a 2001 Porsche (came loose, mangled the threads). What was the alternative---yep, removing the engine and splitting the case open.

Well the re-threading worked, and it's been fine for well over a year. Would a POrsche dealer do it? No way. Was it easy to do with the engine in place? No, it was difficult and it took skill and patience.

isellhondas · February 2013

I've seen Heli-Coils save the day and a TON of money.

Would a dealer fix something that way? Highly doubtful.

Same applies to JB Weld.

A " Mickey Moused" repair? In the eyes of some to be sure!

busiris · February 2013

But I'll never understand when a business invests so much to start up a business like that and yet not have someone literate proofread the site before giving it the go-ahead.

Amen to that.

"You never get a second chance to make a first impression"

The services/products appear professionally made and high quality.

The poor grammar steals so much from that impression, at least, in my eyes...

jipster · February 2013

Dealerships aren't in business to save the consumer money. Why clean a mass airflow sensor for $50 when you can put in a brand new one for $450?

Independents are.such more trustworthy imo, and will look for alternatives to repairs. Managers in dealerships are under so much pressure to meet sales and profit goals, that money comes first and consumers second.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

So I checked out that site. Seems like good folk. Capable.
But I'll never understand when a business invests so much to start up a business like that and yet not have someone literate proofread the site before giving it the go-ahead.

So instead of just criticizing here, send them a note and find out who does their site. They may do it themselves, and they may be paying for someone offshore. It's kinda funny how someone's typing skills become the basis of a question mark for them when the real debate was what constitutes a viable repair or not.

Numerous places they had "or" when they meant "our". And used "to", when they meant "too

Yea spell check can't find those. Heck you should see some of the stuff that spell check on this site permits.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

I've seen Heli-Coils save the day and a TON of money.

Would a dealer fix something that way? Highly doubtful

Perfectly legitimate repairs. Cadillac Northstars get Time-serts, not heli-coils to repair the threads for the head bolts and for the crank bolts. Ford has time sert repairs for the 5.4l 3 valves that spit spark plugs out. Toyota uses Time-serts for head bolts.

I've seen people try to repair the caliper bolt threads in a steering knuckle on a Tempo or Taurus with heli coils. That's not a sound repair. The same goes for a Subaru timing belt idler pulley. The heli-coil can't tolerate the side pressure and they fail. Load it in a straight line and its fine.

Same applies to JB Weld.

A " Mickey Moused" repair? In the eyes of some to be sure

I had a customer who had an old Volvo that he wanted to get running. So we got it down here . I drained the bad fuel, and took care of a wiring issue that caused it to lose the crank sensor signal and got it running. I had it just outside the door to allow it to run for a while so that I could confirm cooling fan operation, and to try and make sure that when I drove it I would be more likely to not have to walk back.

It was a matter of luck in the timing of the sudden failure of the radiator. I had leaned over to see if the fan was running and it was. I stood up, turned toward the drivers door and the JB weld repair that the customer had done to the radiator failed blowing hot coolant and steam out violently. I would have gotten it right in the face, and likely everywhere from my waist up. We are talking second/third degree burns for 30% of your body. We are also talking about what could have happened to my eyes.

I had not noticed the repair of the radiator tank. That event could have left us in financial ruin.

thecardoc3 · February 2013

Dealerships aren't in business to save the consumer money. Why clean a mass airflow sensor for $50 when you can put in a brand new one for $450?

Maybe because cleaning them does NOT restore them to full operation?

jipster · February 2013

Define full operation.

99 percent and $400 in my pocket is good enough for most people.

One of those things that should be offered and explained to a customer, clean or replace. Maybe it last 5 months, maybe cleaning last 5 years or longer. Definitely worth the risk.

crkyolfrt · February 2013

"So instead of just criticizing here, send them a note and find out who does their site. They may do it themselves, and they may be paying for someone offshore. It's kinda funny how someone's typing skills become the basis of a question mark for them when the real debate was what constitutes a viable repair or not. "

I have gone there and done that in the past, and believe me...you know the old saying, 'no good deed goes unpunished"...well it sure is true. MOST can't handle the truth. It takes a real man to say sorry, and or say, "gee, thanks a LOT for pointing that out, appreciate it man".

As for the kinda funny remark...I really did elaborate twice saying that to some it shouldn't matter but to others it will. It is all about perception. Just like, busis, backed up what I said, it would turn him off. It may not be fair. If you like, I will check your site doc, as long as you don't get bent outta shape if I find something? And that said, I know I make mistakes too, but I am always in learning and appreciating mode. I just sorta type like I'm having a live chat with someone. Not sure if it comes across that way or not..

English is probably not their native language, and in which case, all the more reason for them to ask someone, like the bright kid neighbour down the street, or maybe the GF of one of the guys in the shop...someone whose native tongue is English) in high school who specializes in English or literatures and they could spot a lot stuff..pay with pizza..

Personally I would NOT hold it against a good mechanic if his site was full of grammar and spelling mistakes, but it does say something about him as a business man, like it or not..it's just the way it is. He could be a real smart guy, but if a person sees that, then they think he could be smarter still.

isellhondas · February 2013

"neighbour"??

People who live in glass houses.....

A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles