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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    There's a guy at work who once told me about a friend who had a car that got flooded ages ago...it was an old 60's car, but I can't remember what model. He said that it never did completely dry out. In the winter time, when temps got below freezing, he said the seats would get rock hard!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There are some Porsche Boxsters that have a retail price of $5433 for the DME ECU module. :surprise:

    Fortunately if you shop around, you can get a rebuilt one for only $1400 + $400 core charge.

    And that's only ONE part of what got wet.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited April 2013
    BTW, the one way to effect change the quickest? No new blood so that the trade collapses through attrition. The peak should occur about five to ten years from right now at our present pace.

    The real problem (as I see it, anyway) we have in this country is our "collective" view on education that assumes everyone is duty-bound for college and any attempt to create a bona-fide apprentice-based system is some sort of conspiracy to hold some people back, but no one ever identifies who exactly that group might be, or why someone wants them to be "held back".

    I have good friends in Germany (full citizens, born there) that have a son who is apprenticing with a manufacturer of tire casting moulds. This company makes the tire making equipment that companies like Michelin use to make their tires, and there's only 2-4 companies in the world that make this type of equipment. Apprentice style arrangements are not unusual there.

    Felix (the son) struggled through school and most likely would never be successful in a college-style environment like we have here, but he is excelling in his OTJ training and work experience. He's on track to become an installer/systems tech/ systems designer over the next few years, and when his training is completed, he'll travel around the world working on these systems.... And, he'll be making good money.

    When I was there last September (for Oktoberfest) I got the "nickel tour" of the facility. It was extremely interesting, to say the least.

    In my lifetime (I'm 58), I've seen lots of work duties/jobs either marginalized or outright discounted as something only a person with no ambition would be interested in doing. Yet, many of these functions are basic to the functioning of our economy and society.

    In essence, we have created a self-fulfilling prophecy. We have successfully hindered so many young people that could have excelled in an apprentice-style educational program if only it was available, and created a class of workers that are basically fit to be nothing more than clerks in places like Walmart.

    What a loss...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    "A McDonald's outpost in Winchedon, Massachusetts, has just posted a call-out for a full time cashier - but insists only college graduates need apply." (link)

    Come to think of it, that may be a way to drive kids into the car repair field.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    edited April 2013
    The lack of an apprentice system is indeed holding us back, in terms of the continuation of living wage jobs that don't require a cookie cutter MBA. Closest thing we have here is the idiotic unpaid internship route, which usually teaches little more than the office politics of a given firm.

    Maybe it's not a coincidence, revenge by the 1% for a few generations of middle class.

    If we had more real training, no doubt there would be better mechanics out there, and more would be willing to join the ranks.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    .super-complex cars that age poorly might be part of the plan for some of these guys - they know their brand equity and target market combine to make it work

    I don't disagree with that. But I'm not in the financial stratosphere where I'm willing to buy - and discard after 3 or 4 years - an A8 or 7-series.


    The newest round of R2R that is starting up in Maine uses the story of a Subaru owner, who had to take the car 200 miles back to the dealer because the car required a repair that the local shop couldn't do. That's a window to the pitfall if shops try specializing in just a few makes, we will encounter people that we can't help. At the same time, not specializing as much has become so cost prohibitive, that we are barely surviving. Three of the cars that I had in the shop yesterday, were sent to us from other shops for diagnostics. One was a 2005 Mazda 6, the next one was a 1985 Buick LeSabre (really good shape BTW it's worth doing the repairs that it needs) and the third was a 2004 Chrysler Sebring. When you add up the tooling costs for these "normal cars", and then figure the time that it took to sort through the problems that they presented it had me wondering how far below the brake even point we were with them. Now add onto that investigating but not getting to complete the diagnostics on the 99 Lincoln Heater/AC controls, and the airbag system on my sisters BMW 3 series convertible, thats a huge range of tasks. Only the Buick presented with a failure that I'd seen before and that was some fifteen years ago, so it was like dealing with it for the first time again.

    BTW Steve, the Chrysler and the Mazda both included Check Engine lights that among others included evaporative system leak codes, and they both had already had gas caps replaced, twice.. :shades: ... The Mazda is a bad purge valve, that is causing it to run lean at idle, as well as fail as an evaporative leak. The Chrysler has a failed NVLD switch (stuck open) so it sets P0440 and P0441 alternately.

    The BMW needs the passenger side seat belt retractor, and then a passenger presence system relearn. The Buick is a carb overhaul, a good old fashioned tune up (haven't done one of those in years), a cannister purge temperature vacuum valve, and an intake gasket set. The Lincoln may have bad recirculation and temperature blend door actuators and dissasembly of the dash is required to prove that but the customer can't afford the parts let alone the labor to go any further.

    Today I should get the PCM back for repair for the Toyota 4Runner, and have three on the schedule that I really don't know what we will be getting into with them yet. The irony of all of this is that we struggle to survive because of pricing pressure, while we solve the nightmares that in turn lets the others make money with all of the easier work. It should be a win/win but it really isn't. Meanwhile the darkest aspect is that with us to bail them out with the tough stuff, they aren't preparing for the day when we won't be here anymore. Think about what that really means for a moment. It means they don't have long term business plans and just want to make it to retirement and then they will walk away with whatever they can get out of the business, with no-one qualified to take even their place.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    If we had more real training, no doubt there would be better mechanics out there, and more would be willing to join the ranks.

    A real liveable wage and working conditions are also required, but it feels good to see people (you) thinking along these lines. We have to break the stereotype to get other people thinking about what it really takes to be a top technician today.

    I've uploaded some of the diagnostic routines and the scope captures in that blog of mine. When I do that I actually have to pick average routines to put there and not the real nightmares that we sometimes face because I want to keep it at an understandable level, while still providing some "wow they have to know how to do that"? One of the other responses, (I'll have to go back and find it) was asking about if we communicate with the manufacturers in regards to the things we find wrong, such as abraided wires etc. There is some communcation that takes place, but it is very limited. Unless we find a given failure a number of times, there just isn't any reason to alert the manufacturer. The vast majority of repairs that I do are once in a lifetime events, we just don't see that many repeated failures because of all of the different systems, on all of these different models of cars.

    Try and imagine what all of the total possible failures for one car might be. Now imagine what that number grows to with all of the models produced each year, and then carry that out for some forty years of cars. That all adds up to the reality that you can't teach someone to know what is wrong. You can only teach them how to research, test and prove what is wrong with the car they have in front of them right now. Then you have to allow them to take the time to do that, and pay them correctly for the effort that it takes.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    and then a passenger presence system relearn

    When I replace or upgrade a part in my computer, from a simple mouse swap to a new drive, the software and/or bios is smart enough to recognize that something is different. Sometimes the "relearning" requires a reboot, but not so much these days. This "drive to the dealer to hook up an external computer to the car to tell it that a new selt belt mechanism" is a bunch of time wasting hooey.

    You should be thrilled with right to repair - if nothing else it's getting the tech issue in front of a bunch of citizens and law makers who haven't figured out that mechanics are a dying breed.

    My van's in the local three bay shop - should I take them cookies? :shades:
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    You should be thrilled with right to repair - if nothing else it's getting the tech issue in front of a bunch of citizens and law makers who haven't figured out that mechanics are a dying breed.

    Exactly how is R2R doing that?

    To the best of your abiity, explain how R2R will benefit me and/or my customers.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    Exactly how is R2R doing that?

    By getting car repairs issues out in front.

    You have the links to all the R2R sites. I have other things to do than "your assignments". :shades:

    Right To Repair - A Hot Issue or Big Problem?

    The question to ask is how it will benefit me, not you. And if R2R lets me download a diagnostic app cheap onto the iPad, then that's enough right there to at least help make me conversant with the tech when I take my car in, if not enable me to fix something myself.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2013
    Doc, I think you should go into the apprentice business. Here's how it might work at Doc University.

    You advertise or connect with high school placement counselors (even do job fairs) and offer an apprentice program that costs the same as a middle level college---about $15,000 a year, so $1250 a month. No room and board of course, but they'll have to buy some of their tools, obviously. So if you throw in the basic tools they'll need, make that about $1650 a month.

    You'll take on two students for an X year program (two years to get them trained for a job in a shop? What do you think?).

    So you're shop, which will still operate, will have these two slugs dragging you down (they will cost you money for 6 months, break even the next 6 months, and make you money the second year), but you'll have $3,300 in additional income per month, to compensate for you not working full time on cars (doesn't THAT sound like a good idea?).

    It's a very good point---some kids are NOT college material, and it's not because they aren't smart. They just don't operate in that type of environment.

    It's also possible that your shop, as an educational institution, might be eligible for tax breaks or grants, etc.

    I can be your Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid :P

    This won't be the same as a trade school. This is a genuine apprentice program, total on the job training, starting on the wash rack and working up in complexity.

    You can even devise a basic aptitude test to screen applicants, so that you at least start off with kids who have some basic knowledge of cars and like doing this type of work.

    What do you think? if $1650 a month isn't enough tuition, what number works?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    And if R2R lets me download a diagnostic app cheap onto the iPad, then that's enough right there

    R2R only tries to guarantee access to information and software, at a comparable price to what the dealership has to pay.

    Exactly how is R2R doing that?
    By getting car repairs issues out in front.


    Really? Wasn't Ron's "Do you need to use the manufacturers oil" article supposed to do that with engine oil too?

    Follow the money trail, see where it leads and who is bankrolling the legislation around the country. Do you really believe for a second that Auto Zone (and others) give a hoot about my shop, or your local three bay? Do you really think they care about you?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    edited April 2013
    That's an interesting idea.

    I am pretty sure in the more developed nations who we compete with, their apprenticeship systems are also subsidized by the government. A better use of public funds than subsidizing lie-based wars and related industries, maybe.

    In Germany, even factory assembly work starts in the apprenticeship system. I've seen it at both MB and AMG. An apprenticeship starting with putting together AMG engine components might be more enjoyable than 40 years of office work :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Over here, a "speed shop" might attract more kids to apprentice than an "ordinary" repair shop.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Unfortunately, the part missed in your proposal is already evidencing itself in the limited "apprenticing" being done now. When a trainee gets to a certain level of competence, he moves to a different shop that pays a bit better. Unfortunately, that's usually the same time when that particular tech's training stops, or at least slows down dramatically.

    I think your idea would work out, with some modifications, in a family-based shop, though.

    No, for a true apprenticing program to work, in an industry as large as automotive repair, it will need the support of the majority of automakers (including Ford, GM and Chrysler), as well as government assistance for tuition, etc. By that point, we're back to those in the education arena that see programs like that as robbing them of their "precious" resources...."Everyone is college material" mantra plays in the background...

    From a manufacturer support standpoint, if that 50 minute video Cardoc linked to a page or two back is any indication, there's only minimal support for anything like that from manufacturers. It appears that the manufacturers see training issues as much more of a dealership problem.

    At least, those are the indications I see...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the apprentice at the CarDoc University School of Advance Auto Science and Technology doesn't "go" anywhere until he gets his "DOC-torate" :P

    There wouldn't be any grant monies unless there was a degree of some sort, and so the apprentice commits to a period of study and doesn't jump ship for a job---no credentials means probably no job.

    There could be two tracks for apprentices. One would become a Doc Master Clone, which means he not only does repairs but knows how to run a business, while the other could be an Assistant Doc Senior Drone, who is content to work for a Doc Master Clone.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I can be your Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid

    Not me. I wanna be the AD. That's where all the money is!
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    My van's in the local three bay shop - should I take them cookies?

    Well, there is a good body shop in my area that does even better work if you come in with a case of Bud Lite.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    There could be two tracks for apprentices. One would become a Doc Master Clone, which means he not only does repairs but knows how to run a business, while the other could be an Assistant Doc Senior Drone, who is content to work for a Doc Master Clone.

    I certainly like your naming conventions!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    I hate to be unsympathetic to people, but McDonalds, Burger King, et al were not meant to be "living wage" jobs, unless you went into management. They're jobs that high school kids and college kids are supposed to take, and it teaches them skills in teamwork, communication, working with others, dealing with customers, and so on. Or, if you're a senior citizen, or just someone in a situation where you need to pick up some part time work to supplement your income.

    Or out of work, trying to make ends meet while you look for a better job. My uncle had to do that one year back in the 80's. He actually got hired by McDonalds, but then had to turn it down because a "real" job in construction, which is his field, came through.

    Unfortunately, the economy has gotten to the point that more and more people are resorting to these types of jobs to try and make ends meet. Still, people are only going to pay so much for a Big Mac or Whopper. Raise those wages, they're going to raise the food prices to compensate. And then business will fall off.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    edited April 2013
    Exactly, andre; exactly.

    People are surprised that minimum wage jobs do not, by themselves, make ends meet? Well, that's because the price on everything goes up every time the wage floor is raised. It has to do so, and it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that this happens. The only thing such increases do is reduce the purchasing power for the rest of us who aren't minimum wage earners, which means the luxuries we enjoy, such as, uh, FAST FOOD, get cut, which means fewer jobs for those minimum wage earners.

    Huh; mind blowing!

    But, getting back on topic, it looks like those entry-level mechanics could have a viable option for a totally different (yet financially competitive) career, and not have to spend time in a classroom to do it! :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Seems fairly obvious that most fast-food front-line workers aren't very good candidates for advanced college education (for many reasons), and without any formal alternatives, such as apprentice programs, these folks don't really have many options.

    Unionize? Not likely to be successful, since there are far too many others in a similar financial position willing to take minimum wage .vs. no wage. It doesn't take a lot of training to sell fast food...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    edited April 2013
    The new serf class. Should help some other places have a chance of gaining even more of an upper hand, especially in human development indices. Go to school or else.

    The best part of it is that the low earners often receive aid, subsidized by the shrinking middle class. Capitalism at work.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2013
    Well I don't know how important a college education is, if you have the right training.

    Now take the Marine Corps---they take working class kids, many from single parent households of very modest income (I checked out all the stats) and by and large, they turn these kids into highly motivated individuals, willing to not only join a group and cooperate with a team, but to pledge very high levels of self-sacrifice.

    I think there's a lot of talent in the "serf class", but it requires a lot of work to extract it sometimes.

    Don't you think Doc would make a good DI? :P
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Don't you think Doc would make a good DI?

    I might have, I definitely would have gotten to spend some time at the rifle range as an instructor.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    My "go to school" line was in jest - often that gives one nothing more than debt, unless they have some luck getting started, or talent enough to get in the right STEM field.

    There's certainly talent in those who can't or don't pursue the established norm. Sadly, a lot of that talent is wasted in a devolving system.

    Without much of a training or apprenticeship system in the land of the 1%, will the controllers start using the H1-B system to import mechanics next?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Without much of a training or apprenticeship system in the land of the 1%, will the controllers start using the H1-B system to import mechanics next?

    Interesting read when I looked that up. Guess that explains some of the foreign voices we hear on the phones, instead of calling someone on a help desk in India, put them behind a desk here for a lot less. :sick:

    As I read through some things this evening it occurred to me, all of these displaced engineers. Why would they sit around hoping for another one of those jobs instead of looking at the auto repair trade? The answer is quite simple, they aren't really qualified to become technicians. They would be likely to have the talents we seek so they could learn in time to be good techs. But it takes a long time, and the money and benefits just aren't there.

    Those fast food workers want more money than an average technician makes around his/her tenth year in the trade and they wouldn't have to spend a significant amount of their paycheck buying their own tools like a technician does. Plus the training required to be a cashier, and flip burgers is nothing compared to what our people have to get every month ( maybe that should be week) of their careers. So would dragging in some over seas mechanics make a difference? In isolated cases, it probably would. But the cost would be the temporary further loss of our own need to grow our own technicians. Right now I'm thinking its a good thing there are a limited number of these Visa's.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    The story comes from Cincinnati, not that far from me. The Howard Ain mentioned in the comments is another troubleshooter person from TV in the area.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    I'm surprised that they say that doesn't qualify for a recall, as it's not a "safety issue". I'm sure just about any police officer in any jurisdiction in this country would beg to differ.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    Now I can rail about the software programmers in addition to my usual engineer rants. :D

    Those little black boxes are supposed to make life better.

    And the reporter didn't even call them out about it not being a safety issue - but the commenters sure did.

    It was nice to see that a dealer (translation - a smart tech) figured out a work-around, even if it's not a permanent one.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    edited April 2013
    http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/04/04/high-tech-thiefs-use-new-gadget-to-gai- n-keyless-access-to-vehicles-in-long-beach/

    Suspects were caught on surveillance using small handled devices that caused “the vehicle’s dome light to come on and doors to unlock,” Det. Joseph Starbird said in a news release

    Video included.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    $1000 headlight repair would be cheap on some models of AUDI !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    "As I read through some things this evening it occurred to me, all of these displaced engineers. Why would they sit around hoping for another one of those jobs instead of looking at the auto repair trade? The answer is quite simple, they aren't really qualified to become technicians."


    BINGO! I knew a guy who was a "reformed" automatic transmission scoundrel who used to brag about getting the maximum amount for a rebuild (ironically, he did very good work). He was, you might say, Master of the Oversell.

    And he insisted to me that the easiest people to cheat were the engineers working at the Martin-Marietta plant nearby.

    When I asked him how that could be, his reply turned a light bulb on in my head.

    He said: "Because they are used to such high standards in aerospace, they don't realize that this automatic transmission part I'm holding in my hand, with a few scratches or marks on it, will in fact run another 100,000 miles with no problem".

    I think he was pointing to the fact that many engineers only operate in the realm of the theoretical and that their knowledge, while impressive, is often highly specialized. An auto tech is something of a generalist, to say the least.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Our defective bought-and-paid-for tax and trade policies actually encourage the offshoring of some work and the import of some labor. Idiotic, but that's us in the 21st century.

    Most "engineers" I know would recoil in horror at the thought of getting their hands dirty. I don't know if many are being displaced just yet though - even if some H1-B hiring practices are said to be sketchy at best.

    An interesting idea to analyze would be why the pay and benefits aren't there, for the techs you describe. It's not a pretty picture. Casualties of the gutting of the working class in the name of gains for a few.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    It was nice to see that a dealer (translation - a smart tech) figured out a work-around, even if it's not a permanent one.

    Really? Depending on first if that report is accurate, that would amount to sticking the shops neck out to get sued in the future. The most likely hack would be to either drive both headlights from the still remaining RH circuit either directly or via a relay. Should the RH circuit then fail, the car loses both lamps at the same time, and that's a serious problem. Let that turn into an accident and the lawyers will have a field day.

    There are no other circuits internal to the TIPM that could drive that headlight. This paragraph speaks volumes.
    "The dealership was able to reset the computer in the car to remove the fault and the headlight did come on," Boehne said. "But they said if it goes out again they will have to replace the module."

    The real question should be, why didn't people know that when the TIPM senses a circuit problem, it codes and shuts the circuit down to protect itself? Oh, forgot, the toy tools don't access all of the modules on the car, and nobody goes and gets real training first so they jump on the web and look for silver bullets. Then they call around and ask for estimates before a real technician has investigated the problem. That BTW is how you end up with quotes like this:
    Boehne says one dealer wanted more than $900 to replace her car's TIPM.

    Ask the price on replacing a TIPM, because you guessed that's what the car needs and you get a price to replace a TIPM.

    Now why did they think the TIPM was bad? Well of course guesses online from several car forums, including Edmunds.com

    I've talked about this ever since I came here, bad guesses online cost consumers a lot of money and create more headaches for us at the same time.

    So then what happens when they find out that they didn't actually need a TIPM? Bad mouth the shop for giving them the estimate that they asked for of course!

    Luckily, she found another dealer who was able to find a workaround for much less.

    I need to know exactly what was done. Was it just clear the codes and the system resumed normal opperation, or did the technician in fact rig something which will ultimately leave everyone at risk?

    Its easy to see when someone is guessing how today's cars really work when they make a statement like : TIPM problems appear to trigger Caliber headlight failure, several mechanics tell us
    That's known as putting the cart in front of the horse......
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    An interesting idea to analyze would be why the pay and benefits aren't there, for the techs you describe. It's not a pretty picture. Casualties of the gutting of the working class in the name of gains for a few.

    One technician commented on the hamburger flippers wanting fifteen bucks an hour on another forum that a 25 yr professional technician working at a chain store near him doesn't make that.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    edited April 2013
    They would be likely to have the talents we seek so they could learn in time to be good techs. But it takes a long time, and the money and benefits just aren't there.

    An economist would say the money will improve once the supply dwindles. Too many techs? Once the manufacturers,dealerships... whoever, squeeze out those techs without the stomach or resources to pursue a career in automotive repair, then those left will surely command a kings ransom. They have to get somebody to repair cars. :confuse:
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Or maybe, as real incomes decay and purchasing power erodes, those spending the money just don't have enough to spend.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    That sounds pretty dire. Most of the time, around here anyway, I see older workers at independents and dealers, not so many at the chains.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2013
    Was it just clear the codes and the system resumed normal opperation, or did the technician in fact rig something which will ultimately leave everyone at risk?

    Technician's "riggings" often wind up as TSBs.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Technician's "riggings" often wind up as TSBs.

    Prove it.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Prove it.

    Lol. Yeah Steve, prove it. :P
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    Lol. Yeah Steve, prove it.

    And just remember, it ain't been proven unless there's pictures! :shades:
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Prove it.
    Lol. Yeah Steve, prove it

    While it may be fun to mock me with that, the idea that techs rigging things and having them turn into TSB's isn't accurate. Now maybe decades ago it did happen, but engineers and lawyers put an end to that routine a long time ago.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Right, the manufacturers never get any warranty or repair feedback from their dealer network and never incorporate any of that information into addressing car issues that come up.

    "While sometimes written by engineers employed by OEM's, the majority are authored by the first automotive technician to come up with a repair procedure. Because certain problems may have more than one cause or there are sometimes more than one way to fix a problem, it's somewhat common for there to be more than one TSB for the same problem."

    If you don't believe me, find me a better resource than Wikipedia. :P
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    edited April 2013
    If you don't believe me, find me a better resource than Wikipedia

    http://www.iatn.net/

    Manufacturers don't pay the techs enough under warranty to fix the cars with approved methods, techs simply don't have the time to re-engineer the cars.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    Manufacturers don't pay the techs enough under warranty to fix the cars with approved methods

    Okay, so we agree that techs come up with ways to rig up faster, cheaper solutions all the time.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Manufacturers don't pay the techs enough under warranty to fix the cars with approved methods
    Okay, so we agree that techs come up with ways to rig up faster, cheaper solutions all the time

    Where does what I wrote suggest that?

    I can prove that techs coming up with what they think are better ways has ended up having horrific results.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191
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