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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well it wouldn't be hypothetical--if your shop is threatened by a lawyer, you pretty much have to contact your insurance ---Unless you want to cave like a spineless wimp and encourage more shysters to do similar things to other shops. :P
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    edited November 2012
    One of my best customers found out the value of that advice some twelve years ago. Dana was going to buy another car because his Celebrity was acting up. As it turned out, I diagnosed and repaired the Celebrity, which was going to be given to his son for college, but that evening he had a stroke and has been on dissability ever since. Meanwhile his wife had an Olds Alero that they were making payments on and they really struggled for a while. But once she paid it off, she stuck to the plan and kept on making that car payment to herself. When the Olds needed head gaskets, she was free to choose whether to repair it, or replace the car. She had me fix it, and used some of her car savings to pay for the repair.

    She finally retired earlier this year, and bought herself a retirement present with the cash that she saved by making that payment each month. With the habit that it became, she still is putting some money into that account each month but has now reduced the amount. She is intent on building that savings back up again. Her son kept the Celebrity all the way through college and bought himself a car when he got his first job after school. He had half of the money saved for it and only had two years of payments. Last time I saw (he lives near DC) him he was hoping to get 300K out of his present car. He hasn't had a car payment now for four years....
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Well, I guess I've done a lot of brake jobs INCORRECTLY.

    Unless I have a pulsation in my pedel (never have) I don't believe in turning rotors. I want as much metal thickness as I can get. If I have slight grooves, so be it. If my rotors are out of spec, I'll replace them with quality new ones.

    And, I have been in, literally thousands of shops and NEVER ONCE have I seen anyone wash rotors using dish washing detergent!

    There must be a whole lot of incorrectly done brake jobs running around out there!

    Maybe I've just been lucky!
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Brand new rotors can be had for less than $20 each making it a no brainer. Just change it along with the pads. Those repair shops are wasting space keeping those old machines once used to "cut" the rotors.

    So by not buying a new vehicle every five years actually 2.5 since I have two company vehicles I'd be able to buy more equipment for the shop? Then what would happen to GM if I don't buy those two vehicles...they might go bankrupt yet again?

    Awful lot to speculate about eh?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    One of my worst tool investments today is my brake lathe. We still need to have it, but its getting rare to use it and it cost me a little over $6500. There is a tool on the market for cutting rotors on the car, and they make a great point for having that capability. At $10,000 it would be like buying a used car that I might drive a few times a year.

    So by not buying a new vehicle every five years actually 2.5 since I have two company vehicles I'd be able to buy more equipment for the shop?

    Changing vehicles every 2.5 years is likely costing you about $7500 a year depending on what your buying. Imagine doing that with a $40,000 pick-up like some companies now face doing. Now sure, service costs increase the longer you have the vehicle but it really is only nickles and dimes to fix what you have compared to hundreds to replace it.

    Then what would happen to GM if I don't buy those two vehicles...they might go bankrupt yet again?

    Do you think that maybe manufacturers and dealers have understood this for decades and having a repair shop inside a dealership potentially served to work against the goal of selling that customer another car? Service departments have often been viewed as a necessary evil for many dealerships.

    I'll never forget my yearly review as a technician working at a dealer back in 1985. The owner had to explain why sick days were listed as a part of my compensation, (we didn't actually get any). He had to show "expenses" to try and get an increase in his labor dollars from GM. He went through the whole package, including our healthcare expenses and showed me how I cost the company $24,000 between pay and benefits each year. Apparently I wasn't supposed to be smart enough to realize that I had generated $100,000 in labor fees during that year plus who knows what the profit from the parts were. Yea, I cost them money.

    BTW, that was the year that I made the GM Master Technician Advisory Council for having the highest score in the nation on a head to head test for the Buick Motor Division of GM. (1986 Advisory Council June'86)
    I've had a habit of studying, a lot, for a long time.......
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    $20 rotors? Maybe on a go kart. Not on MY car, thank you very much. Are they made out of old Italian TV dinner trays? :P
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I don't think any rotor can be bought for 20.00 but they do have Made in China rotors out there that are pretty cheap.

    When our son had his Explorer we took it in for front brakes and the rotors were out of spec. The shop offered us a choice of rotors. As I recall, the Chinese ones were about 20.00 cheaper but the owner strongly reccommended against them for several reasons. We went with the OEM and never had a problem.

    I don't believe in throwing cheap junk on our cars.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2012
    Hm, Wagner fronts are $19 at RockAuto, Raybestos are $27. Don't think I need the $199 drilled and slotted ones on the '99 Quest. :shades:

    That's without shipping and without the usual 5% off coupon.

    I got some Napa Ceramix ones the last time I did the van myself in '06 for $54.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    So $19 retail, which means Rock Auto paid maybe $10 bucks a piece, and Wagner paid 'somebody' a few dollars to make it, and then somebody had to dig out the raw materials and turn it into metal.

    I mean, you get what you pay for.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, but Wagner/Federal-Mogul isn't exactly a fly by night Chinese outfit. They have real engineers and stuff. :D
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nonetheless, the price speaks for itself. One time, in a land far away, a long long time ago, Cadillac made the world's finest cars, too.

    Ask the Doc---you can buy a Craftsman open end wrench for $4 or a Snap-On for $24. Which one do you risk YOUR knuckles on?

    Exactly.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Don't be too sure. Brand names aren't what they used to be.

    At those prices, I'll bet they were made offshore somewhere.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I spent nearly 20 years working for a VERY well known tool company the last ten years in upper management.

    Never in my DREAMS would I have ever thought they would produce their tools in China but the certainly do now!

    Sadly, under my intense scrutiny, I have to admit that I didn't see a slip in quality despite what I wanted to see.

    Made in Japan used to mean "junk" too....remember?

    What have we done to ourselves?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    well, free market capitalism can be a wonderful thing on the local or regional level, but it gets ugly on the global level, because modern corporations, unlike your local businesses, have no loyalty whatsoever to workers, to cities or even to their own country. It's all about 'bottom line" these days.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited November 2012
    That's true but I suppose the blame belongs to us, the shareholders in these companies who demand a high return on our investments.

    It's a nasty, irreversable situation that WE let happen.

    People hate Wal Mart and their business practices and fight when they want to move into a small town. Then, when they find out a bottle of Castrol 5-30 is 1.00 less then the family owned local place in town, they flock to the same store they didn't want in town.

    They will let a guy like cardoc diagnose a miserable drivability problem but when they need a new battery guess where they go!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Exactly! People won't patronize small businesses in their area because they can save $9 on a battery after driving 10 miles to get it, and then one day they look around and say: "Where's my local grocery store? Where's Sam's Auto Repair? What happened to Main St. Shoe Store? The local coffee shop? "
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    We agree and at this point it's irreversable.

    Maybe Wal Mart can figure out how to fix that Toyota tailgate?

    Ya think?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    Absolutely!

    In all the cost analysis I have done on the "when is it not worth repairing your current car?" question, the only hard-and-fast answer at which I've arrived is this: It is time to get a new car when you simply no longer want your current car.

    I'm sure there are those anomalies that break that logic, but for a car that started out reliable and is now aging (and requires maintenance/repairs), the "this car isn't worth fixing" logic doesn't hold up to cost analysis.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    edited November 2012
    I don't disagree with you that the relative cost of rotors is low enough that they don't represent a major investment. That said, I also don't like to replace stuff just for the sake of replacing stuff. To me, that's a waste of resources (and I'm not talking about my money).

    I do as isellhondas does - if something needs replacing, I replace it, and I replace with the best quality item (OEM-spec, not performance generally speaking) I can given available funds and research. The first car on which I ever replaced the rotors was my Escort, at about 150K miles in August 2011. I don't know which set of brake pads it was on, as I bought it with 108K on the clock and the pads were at ~50% at that point. I probably still had another 20K of pad life, but the pulsating rotors were getting on my nerves, and I needed to do some suspension/steering work and an alignment anyway, so I replaced the pads and the rotors as a matter of convenience.

    I have to imagine that the shimmy the rotors caused during braking probably put a little extra strain on the suspension components, too, so that was added justification for me.

    It was expensive, though. I think I put $600+ in it in the parts alone, but saved $800 on the labor and spent another $165 on the alignment. Along with a new set of tires to accompany the alignment, that car drove like a dream afterward!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Yeah, but Wagner/Federal-Mogul isn't exactly a fly by night Chinese outfit. They have real engineers and stuff

    They don't make everything that can be found in an orange and black box anymore. Moog was once a name that we could really trust as well.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    So $19 retail, which means Rock Auto paid maybe $10 bucks a piece, and Wagner paid 'somebody' a few dollars to make it, and then somebody had to dig out the raw materials and turn it into metal

    At one of the big annual trade shows there were parts suppliers selling radiators, rotors, brake pads, (and everything else you can think of) by the shipping container. The prices got lower depending on how much warranty risk the buyer was willing to assume for the parts. At a 20% risk those $20 brake rotors were costing the warehouses about $5 each. Any idea how many brake rotors fit in a shipping container?

    For the parts store that 20% risk is apparently acceptable to make that kind of profit, for us it is totally unacceptable. We need to go with the best that we can find and so our prices reflect that. Then a customer sees an advertisement from the parts store, see's what we charged for a quality part and doesn't know that there is a real difference between the two and feels that we are gouging them. :sick:
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Yea, the tail gate. Studying the schematic, the BCM sends power to the washer pump for the rear gate, and the column switch grounds it. Checking there was no power to the washer pump from the BCM. With power jumped in, the switch could control the washer pump.

    All three powers for the rear module were good. All of the power inputs to the BCM checked good.

    All of the grounds for the BCM checked good.
    The ground for the rear door module also tested good.

    Toyota has you manually power and ground the wiper motor to be sure that it isn't bad, and "if" you would have done that it would have operated, the same thing goes for the rear power window.

    So was it a bad BCM or a bad rear door module?

    Don't be so quick. The schematic showed communication (mplx for multiplexed) on a purple wire with a white tracer, pin 18 at the door module, and pin 7 at the BCM. A varying voltage of around 3v was found at the door module pin 18. Pin 7 had a yellow wire with no unique tracer, as did 5,6,8,and 9 in the BCM connector on the front of the fuse block that the BCM is inside of.

    The fuse block and BCM also have mating connections so it appeared that the communication wire must connect to the back side of the assembly. Taking apart the dash sufficiently to remove the box, the harness from the rear of the car to the BCM was finally located, the pin 7 with the yellow wire went to a similar connector that was behind the fuse block and mated to one that had the purple wire with the white tracer.

    Pin 7 did indeed have a varying voltage, but it was closer to 5v, than 3v. Voltmeters don't update fast enough to properlly display digitial communication waveforms so the correct tool is an oscilloscope. Connecting to pin 7 at the BCM normal digital communication waveform could be seen and it repeated every 20ms. It was an 11v amplitude signal. At the rear door, you saw two short bursts about 20ms apart, then nothing for the rest of that second. For each end of the purple with white wire to have different voltage patterns that can only mean that the wire had broken inbetween the modules. Attaching a jumper wire to test system operation and audible click was heard. That click was the relay that sent power to the rear washer pump from the BCM, and rear door operation was restored once communication was taking place.

    This all means that if someone would have replaced either module, they would not have fixed the car. Toyota's method of diagnostics has a tech substitute known good parts to try and they would have failed. But do you realize at this point what you don't know yet? Where is the wire broken between the two modules? Does what ever happened to that purple wire affect any other wires? Even though the system is diagnosed to that point, the diagnostics are not final yet. You still have to locate and repair the exact problem and that means the carpet may have to come up in some areas of the interior, and maybe even the headliner may have to come down.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Our mailman asked for some information thursday. His wifes car seems to have a transmission issue. He described the engine speeding up and they couldn't go over 45mph, but it wasn't "slipping" that he could tell.

    Basically he described the transmission stuck in one gear, it's probably in limp in mode, or failsafe as some like to call it. Limp in mode is the gear that the transmission operates in when there is no command from the PCM/TCM to any of the solenoids.

    Friday. After reparing the tail gate, and doing a mobile diagnostic for another shop on two Jaguar no-starts I was back at the shop and working ona BMW that is setting misfire codes on all cylinders, but it doesn't have a misfire. While doing some reaserch on the system the mailman came in and asked for more information for his wifes car. It turns out this problem started when a back yard guy who works from his house in the evenings was trying to solve a misfire on her car. He has had the car for more than a week now and is driving it when he can with the hope that the check engie light will come on and then he can run it to auto zone and have them pull the code and tell him what's wrong. So far they can't seem to pull any codes....
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I've often been curious about that---sometimes we'll read about a car misbehaving badly.... RADICALLY badly, and not a trouble code to be found. Is that really possible? I mean, I know that some components do not throw codes but the symptoms I read suggest that in those cases there should certainly be codes present.

    I wonder if the type of scanner some people are using just can't read everything?

    Of course, this takes us to the axiom: "Any machine is only as good as the person using it".
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, what tool do you use to diagnose a bad OBDII port? :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the scanner should tell you if it's not communicating but it can't tell you WHY it's not communicating.

    I think automotive design took a bad turn when it started all this multi-plexing. Tracking electrical issues is very tricky now.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Sounds like a "walk in the park" job for a Wal Mart mechanic...right?

    No...wait...they would have sent that job to you AFTER installing the 59.95 battery.

    Seriously, that sounded like one miserable job. Hard to make a profit on a job like that!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Has the quality of Moog suspension parts gone downhill?

    If so, that is a real shame. They used to make ball joints, tie rod ends, idler arms etc that were far superior to the OEM stuff. It used to be that replacement Moog front end parts would outlast the rest of the car.

    What happened?
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    edited November 2012
    Need brakes, as the pads were pretty well done. No other issues though.

    I just had that done on my son's X3. I serviced the rear brakes in the spring and my service advisor told me that the rotors were fine and that it only needed pads. I brought it back to the dealer this week and the front rotors were below the minimum, so I did go ahead and replace them. I appreciate the fact that my advisor doesn't go overboard but still makes logical recommendations.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    Brand new rotors can be had for less than $20 each making it a no brainer.

    Not for any performance car that I know of; the cheapest decent aftermarket rotors usually run from @$60 up.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Yeah, what tool do you use to diagnose a bad OBDII port?

    The one on your shoulders.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    the symptoms I read suggest that in those cases there should certainly be codes present.

    As mentioned on another response. The PCM really cannot test past it's connector. The engineer's write sensor limit specifications, such as the TPS should not go below .5v, and if it does, the PCM sets a P0121, and the TPS should not go above 4.8v and if it does the PCM sets a P0122. If the TPS falls between those ranges, but is falsely varying (spiking up or down) then you get into the realm of rationality testing and the PCM needs time to compare the TPS voltage changes with other parameters. Keep in mind if they allow it to code too fast, then they could have issues with false fails and check engine lights when there is nothing wrong with the car.

    I wonder if the type of scanner some people are using just can't read everything

    That is absolutely at play here. It's also one of the reasons many shops supported the R2R legislation, the aftermarket tools would support about 50% to 70% of what someone might need to do with engine performance, and maybe not support specific systems at all. The 4-Runner mentioned, that multiplexed system was never designed to work with any scan tool, not even the factory one. (which I have)
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Well the scanner should tell you if it's not communicating but it can't tell you WHY it's not communicating.

    I have written and teach classes on how to perform such diagnostics.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Seriously, that sounded like one miserable job. Hard to make a profit on a job like that!

    I'll make more money by documenting every step that I took with a camera and by saving the voltage waveforms and testing points as well as explaining the strategies involved than a customer is willing to pay for the time required. That's why people like to resort to shot-gunnng parts. It takes a lot of discipline to resist the try-zee's and actually perform the steps that are required.

    It will take me another ten hours to produce the case study from the information gathered by that one repair, but if I can sell it, it will help subsidize the shops existence and maybe even pay for one of my software updates that I need.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Hm, Wagner fronts are $19 at RockAuto, Raybestos are $27. Don't think I need the $199 drilled and slotted ones on the '99 Quest.

    Yep and ordering the parts through a shop will get you a 25% discount on those prices. I always go with both Raybestos rotors and ceramic pads and never had a problem.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Changing vehicles every 2.5 years is likely costing you about $7500 a year depending on what your buying. Imagine doing that with a $40,000 pick-up like some companies now face doing. Now sure, service costs increase the longer you have the vehicle but it really is only nickles and dimes to fix what you have compared to hundreds to replace it.

    For the record I have a '99 C5 which does around 3000 miles a year and costs over $1000 a year to insure.

    2010 GMC Acadia
    2012 Nissan Titan SV (which they are giving away)

    I changed out the pads on the Titan at 150 miles cause that black dust caused by the stock pads just didn't work for me. Didn't change the rotors cause it hadn't shown much sign of wear. No squeaks so far. Changed the shocks out at 200 miles replacing the stock ones with Bilstein. I wouldn't call these performance upgrades rather making the truck more livable.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    edited November 2012
    $165.00 on an alignment? a good friend of mine owns an alignment/repair shop. A four wheel alignment costs $75.00 on most American cars. Is there anything special on an Escort that would double this price? Just curious.

    For the record he charges $175.00 to align an E500 not cause it's any harder but because the owner expects it. Anything less would be suspect by the owner.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    Just the area - everything's a mint around here. The shop is also the best in the area and has an excellent reputation, so you end up paying ~40 more for it. I've had several alignments from other places, but this was my first there. It was new-car perfect, and he wouldn't do the alignment until every part he indicated was suspect was replaced. A year later, and the alignment hadn't changed a bit.

    This car was also a bit of a pain on the front end because it has very little built-in adjustment options. If you have to realign it, it means bending, shimming, etc. I don't know if that played into the price, but the other shop I inquired at (which had done alignments for me previously) wanted $125.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Replacing modules to diagnose a problem is really an acceptable troubleshooting techniques. We use it a lot in my line of work. But, what is not acceptable in the example you gave is charging the customer for those modules. Once you've found that the problem is in the interconnects, the original modules should be replaced and not charged to the customer.

    BTW, why was the wire open? Had the wire been damaged somehow? Was there a problem at the connector?
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "So they'll go to the neighborhood shyster lawyer who will write a demand letter for $500"

    Who would do such a thing?... :blush: :P ;)

    BTW, I assume the cost of rotors has gone down simply because the hub is not longer part of the rotor, but stays on the car...when they did the brakes on my Crown Vic, I was surprised to see the front rotors on the car like the rear...plus they weigh a lot less...those older rotors with the attached hub weighed many pounds...do not drop one on your foot...

    As far as brake drum/rotor lathes...years ago, in Dad's machine shop, we were the only ones who could cut rotors and drums with our super-duper heavy duty machine...over the years I have seen much smaller lathes in service centers that would only have a small capacity as they sat on a workbench, but probably enough capacity for the one shop's brake work...those machines probably worked well and paid for themselves, esp when they actually put an extra 1/4 inch of iron on each rotor (weigh be damned)...then, when they (carmakers) realized that they could shave some weight by installing rotors with just a few thousandths of material over the minimum safety standard, it almost made those smaller brake lathes obsolete, not because the machines were bad, just that mechanics hardly could trim off a few thousandths before they were in the "unsafe" zone for brake rotor thickness...

    In other words, some rotors became un-trimmable, and only replaceable, so if you needed a brake job, it now included new pads and NEW rotors, rather than cutting 10-20 1000ths off the rotor, which made it too thin for safe stopping...
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    A four wheel alignment costs $75.00 on most American cars

    Only because there are a lot of idiots running shops who use the alignment service as a loss leader to try and gain a lot of the repair work. They price the alignment low, under pay their techs and hope the techs turn around and sell and install enough parts to turn a profit on the whole deal.

    I really like doing alignments, but cannot justify the expense of the equipment because of all of the ones who don't price it correctly.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A lot of alignment work gets botched, especially on the higher line cars. Some techs just don't know how to work outside the box.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Replacing modules to diagnose a problem is really an acceptable troubleshooting techniques.

    There are a lot of people who think that way. Their idea is it's cheaper to simply have people try swapping parts instead of getting them the training that is actually required to diagnose, and then allow them to have the time to take a disciplined approach to utilize that training.

    We use it a lot in my line of work. But, what is not acceptable in the example you gave is charging the customer for those modules.


    So then who pays for the "used" part? (It was a new part right up until someone tried it, now it's used) I sure don't have the money to buy modules to put on a shelf and gather dust. The modules that the 4-Runner didn't need would have cost more than the entire repair.

    Once you've found that the problem is in the interconnects, the original modules should be replaced and not charged to the customer

    Totally impractical in our world. There are simply too many unique modules, and on top of that CAN vehicles now need to learn the VIN of the vehicle they are installed into in order to reduce theft value. The moment a module is connected to the CAN bus and powered up, it learns the VIN of the vehicle it is installed in, and that cannot be erased, ever. Try and move that module to another car and it will recognize the conflicted VIN, and at the least, the module will simply not function, at the worst, you could end up with a no-start security system failure.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    A lot of alignment work gets botched, especially on the higher line cars. Some techs just don't know how to work outside the box.

    Let's see, price the job too low, and pay a tech .8 hours to do it when the flat rate manual actually allows for 2.5 hours. Why should anyone be surprised that your not going to get what your not paying for.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well you have to be kind of nuts to take your Porsche or Mercedes AMG to a chain store for an alignment. I don't think a Dodge Ram 3500 really cares which way its wheels are pointing, but a 997 Carrera 4S does.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,433
    I always figured that the tire stores (heck, probably dealers too) used alignments as a loss leader. Always something to find when you are poking around down there!

    actually, the stores near me offer the check for free. And I have had them come back telling me everything was in the green, and it did not need anything done.

    seems like most "normal" cars tend to hold an alignment pretty well. Some people never have then done.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    Well you have to be kind of nuts to take your Porsche or Mercedes AMG to a chain store for an alignment. I don't think a Dodge Ram 3500 really cares which way its wheels are pointing, but a 997 Carrera 4S does.

    Exactly.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    Have you done any alignments in the last five years? (Did you ever do any on a regular basis, yourself?)

    It makes a big difference in handling and the feel of the ride on everything from the Porsche all the way up to big rigs.

    Well you have to be kind of nuts to take your Porsche or Mercedes AMG to a chain store for an alignment.

    I teach two alignment classes. The first one, within one year after the techs have started aligning cars, keep in m ind the better chains send their techs to training with the equipment manufacturer for a week when they are ready to start doing alignments. (Usually about five years into the trade)

    The second class is for techs that have been aligning cars for five years or more. After that class, along with their experience there isn't anything a dealer tech can or does do, that they cannot do as well. The question comes down to discipline and pride in workmanship as to whether they use everything that we show them. Keep in mind that techs constantly move in and out of dealers and chain stores looking for a shop that really values their skills.

    BTW, a GM four wheel steering truck is much more complicated to work on than a Porsche or AMG is.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    edited November 2012
    actually, the stores near me offer the check for free. And I have had them come back telling me everything was in the green, and it did not need anything done.

    "Just get it in the green"

    So you have a camber spec of +.5 and a tolerance of +/- .7. That means you could have one wheel at 1.2 degrees positive camber, and one at -.2. and the machine will show everything "in the green". That's 1.4 degrees side to side variation and for a car to not lead and handle correctly that needs to be less than .5 and ideally about .3 higher on the left side than the right side to compensate for road crown.

    If in the example I just gave you the right hand side is the 1.2 positive camber, and the left hand side is the -.2 you will have a car that pulls to the right, but again "everything is in the green". The trick is this might not be only a camber angle issue. Today, the cradle assembly could be pushed to one side and need re-aligned first , and then the tech would adjust the camber if necessary.

    What angle needs to be measured to prove whether that is the case or not? Exactly how is that measurement made? (They have to be very specific on that or else they need to sit in the second class that I (and others teach)

    Take that question to your alignment shop that does "free" checks. I'll post the answer sometime during the next two weeks. If someone thinks they know the answer go ahead and post it.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,741
    seems like most "normal" cars tend to hold an alignment pretty well. Some people never have then done.

    I recall hearing claims like "hit one pothole and you knock it right back out of alignment" which I always took as an excuse for why the vehicle wasn't aligned correctly.

    Once an alignment is set and done correctly, the wheel should "line up with the dash", or be level while going straight down the road. I don't care if you go out and play the "Dukes of Hazzard" in the thing after that. If the wheel remains level while your gong straight down the road, then the alignment didn't change. If anything on the front end bent, and changed any of the angles, both sides of the car would have to bend exactly the same for the wheel to stay level, and be exactly where it was set during the alignment. What are the odds of that happening?
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