A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

roadburner · September 2013

There are more than a few things that I would rather do than own and/or repair a Saturn SL300- such as hammering a rusty railroad spike into my skull with a 50 lb. sledgehammer...

jipster · September 2013

Always remember those Saturn's at the new car show, when they first came out. A salesman or Saturn rep would beat the cars dent resistant panels with a shoe, a mallet, or something. No matter where you were in that huge Expo Center... every 5 minutes you'd hear a big ole,"THUMP". :-)

thecardoc3 · September 2013

"Use whatever resource that you can and make your best guess. My approach will fix it right the first time no exceptions, can you say the same about yours?"

Doc, IMO, you're missing the point here

So I write out an example that addresses a very specific consumer concern that has been getting ignored, "fix it right the first time" and you think I'm the one missing the point.

jipster · September 2013

Yeah... you the mechanic have to fix it right the first time. That's why we're paying you the big bucks.

We the diy'er, don't hold ourself to the same standard... we work a lot cheaper. Google the symptoms, ask here or on other more specific forums about possible causes, if the repair is doable, saves oneself a couple hundred bucks. That's the point.

jipster · September 2013

I spoke with the service manager about the sales receipt showing the wrong oil was put in my 2012 Civic. Receipt shows 5w-20 was used instead of 0w-20. I say the wrong oil was used.

He stated that he could promise me the right oil was put in, saying the tech would know which oil to put in. Stated the parts dept.probably entered it wrong. I stated I understood, but didn't feel that confident that the right oil was used. He paused a second, then said if I wanted to come in he would drain out the old oil and put new oil in, said he wanted me to be happy.

How can you argue with someone who's only concern is to make you happy? Wish my 7 ex-wives felt that way. Anyhow, I told him his word was good enough for me if he was positive the right oil was used, he again reassured me it was. I said okay, we're cool then. My first name is Jim, and all this time he's calling me Jimmy. So, there you go. :-)

srs_49 · September 2013

Interesting story.

Question - what purpose does it serve to have the BCM provide switchable power to the rear washer pump? Why not bring the power off an simple relay switched circuit that's on whenever the ignition switch in on? Bringing that power from the BCM seems like it over complicates things.

stever · September 2013

Economy of scale to have fewer gizmos (switches) controlling stuff?

qbrozen · September 2013

right. Develops hairline fractures in the solder over time. Strange that such a little thing affects so much in the car.

qbrozen · September 2013

So will we get an answer to this? Or are you waiting for more amateur responses? I'd still like to know first what the other shop did. If they already replaced the CPS, then I would have to dig further, of course. I gave you the first of my answers. Code says CPS, so check the CPS first.

roadburner · September 2013

We the diy'er, don't hold ourself to the same standard... we work a lot cheaper. Google the symptoms, ask here or on other more specific forums about possible causes, if the repair is doable, saves oneself a couple hundred bucks. That's the point.

I think this is all rather pointless- but hilarious all the same. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that any of the shadetree mechanics in this topic have claimed that they know how to diagnose and repair every problem on every vehicle. The thing is, we gearheads who have owned a specific brand or one particular model for an extended period CAN often know more about the foibles and/or service procedures the car(s) than the average tech who doesn't work on that particular brand or model every day.

imidazol97 · September 2013

>I told him his word was good enough for me if he was positive the right oil was used, he again reassured me it was. I said okay, we're cool then. My first name is Jim, and all this time he's calling me Jimmy. So, there you go.

In cars as in politicians, I would use the "trust but verify" technique. However, mess with me once with a lie, it won't happen the second time as pleasantly.

I'd send in an oil sample to have it checked by Blackstone Labs. If I found it was 5W-20, I'd be right in the guy's face, calling him Mikey instead of Mike, e.g..

qbrozen · September 2013

I don't think that any of the shadetree mechanics in this topic have claimed that they know how to diagnose and repair every problem on every vehicle

Of course not, but even a professional should not make that kind of boast. There are just way too many variables out there. My father has dedicated his life to the profession and is one of the best in the biz, but he wouldn't know, at first, his knee from his elbow if you brought him a Tesla or a Prius. There are some basics that are all the same, sure. But to know all the intricacies of every car? No way.

But I don't see anything wrong or humorous about jipster's post. It is exactly the point of the DIY'er. We are at least confident enough to try things ourselves. We aren't afraid to dive in and take a chance. I'm approaching 40 years old and I've never had to pay for a professional repair in my life so far. I hope I can continue on that path.

roadburner · September 2013

But I don't see anything wrong or humorous about jipster's post. It is exactly the point of the DIY'er. We are at least confident enough to try things ourselves. We aren't afraid to dive in and take a chance. I'm approaching 40 years old and I've never had to pay for a professional repair in my life so far. I hope I can continue on that path.

I'm sorry if I implied that I disagreed with jipster's comment. My comment was aimed at the attitude that the DIY guys are a bunch of know-nothings and that only true "professionals" should be allowed to wrench on a car.

qbrozen · September 2013

ah. ok.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

I work WITH my repair shop. We are not adversarial. I may do initial diagnosis to the best of my ability, list careful the symptoms and when they occur, tell him what I have already tried and how I did it, and we go from there.

I think having a pro change my oil is even a slam-dunk bargain, by the time I gear up...oil catcher, funnel, 5 quarts synthetic, oil filter kit, new drain plug, jackstands, jack, rags (MINI oil changes are horribly messy affairs, with an inaccessible cartridge filter), jug to store old oil, drive to the dump to get rid of old oil, reset service reminded. As opposed to having it all down, and a safety check, fluids topped up, codes scanned, tires rotated, all for $130 bucks? This is a no brainer to me.

Brake pads? That I can do myself and make it worth while.

Point is--whether I'm doing something myself on my cars of having it done, I have a certain amount of control over the process--I am in on the decision making process. I don't mind dealing with cranks, but I cannot suffer a dictatorial tyrant for a mechanic.

stever · September 2013

You always replace the drain plug? I don't know if my van came with a crush washer initially. Never use one of those either.

I figure I spend around $15 for my oil changes not counting my time and the random handfuls of kitty litter. I stack up the old oil in the old containers. Have dumped the oil once in the last 3 years (had to go to the transfer station anyway).

qbrozen · September 2013

I've gone and gotten basic services done, usually when the car is under warranty, just to avoid any future possibility of denial of claim. And, back in the day, it made sense for a couple of my cars to continue using shops for oil changes, such as when I lived right around the corner from a dedicated indy Volvo shop and they only charge $30.

But since I moved further into the boonies, it is way too much of a hassle to set up an appt and gather up the whole fam to take a half-hour drive to drop off the car and again to pick it up.

And that's just my cars. To get my wife to make an appt and drop her car off? Forget it! By the time she gets around to it, it would be thousands of miles past due. I'm a live-in who can work around all of our schedules. That alone is worth it.

busiris · September 2013

"So I write out an example that addresses a very specific consumer concern that has been getting ignored, "fix it right the first time" and you think I'm the one missing the point."

I can't say what your "intent" was in the posting, but what I can tell you is how I (and a few others) perceived it... Which was an attempt at demonstrating a type of "superiority" over the non-professional mechanical types here. Only you know what you were actually attempting to get across.

As another poster noted (and, which is only common sense) no shop, much less any individual, can be 100% trained and educated on every make/model and type of vehicle. However, I have indeed met a few in my 58 years that were non-professional mechanics (by trade, anyway), but knew far more in detail about certain makes/models that anything short of a dealership selling that model.... Even to the point that a dealership mechanic would call them for occasional advise on a difficult to solve problem.

Fix it right the first time?

That needs to be your objective (possibly even your requirement) in business.

On the other hand, if it's my car and me working on it, maybe not so much.

Again, it all depends upon the individual's pain/gain ratio he feels comfortable in having.

isellhondas · September 2013

" Jimmy the Jipster!" Great sound to that!

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

$15? What sort of god awful oil do you put in it? And I presume a roll of toilet paper for a filter?

I can't even buy the filter for $15.

Yep, oil plug replacement is mandatory in a MINI.

I like to have my car looked over professionally every 7500 miles. Up on a lift, under the hood, all fluids checked, computer scan, brake check, tire check, and a road test. That's what I pay for.

fintail · September 2013

I was going to say, thinking of my old E55 - filter was at $15 at least, and 8 quarts of synthetic...you're in for over $50 just in basic materials. Fintail also takes 7 or 8 quarts I think, but it shouldn't have synthetic and is probably fine with cheaper stuff. I haven't changed my own oil since I was a teenager. To have the car inspected on a lift and have someone else clean up the mess is worth the extra money.

ohenryx · September 2013

$15? What sort of god awful oil do you put in it? And I presume a roll of toilet paper for a filter?

For around $17 or $18, I can buy 5 quarts of decent quality, name brand oil (Pennzoil, Quaker State, etc), and an OEM filter (AC Delco or equivalent) at WalMart. $15 might be a little on the short side (if you need 5 quarts), but not by much. Call it "round off error".

Now I will admit, in the last few years, I have started buying the WalMart brand synthetic oil for $17 per 5 quarts. So an oil change for my old GMC Sierra now runs about $22. The Passat runs significantly more, around $40, but I suppose that's very cheap for a German car.

random handfuls of kitty litter

Now this I do see as a problem. Cat litter will dry up the spilled oil, but it da*ned sure won't take up the stain on my driveway. I have some big cardboard boxes which I have cut open and can lay flat underneath the car. When I'm doing something messier (dropping an automatic transmission pan), I use a plastic drop cloth (very cheap, throw away afterwards).

There is a Firestore just down the street from me which will do the oil change for $29, and I'll admit it's tempting. But they're most likely paying some unskilled laborer minimum wage or less to do the job, and I just don't want to take that chance. I paid Firestone to service the transmission in my old truck last year, and they used the wrong drain plug, which caused it to ooze for several months until I redid the job myself.

stever · September 2013

$15? What sort of god awful oil do you put in it?

Usually Supertech from WallyWorld and a Fram. Sometimes it's $16.

Did I mention that I'm at 193,500 miles on the van? Guess I need to think about changing the oil soon - after our 6,700 mile road trip last month, I'm probably overdue by a couple of thousand miles. Ah, no, looks like I changed it back in June so I'm likely good until Christmas. :-)

Mostly I use the kitty litter for the spills on the cardboard so my inevitable spills don't hit the floor, O'Henryx. But it seems to work good on zapping the stains on the concrete too.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

Well I understand how primitive machinery does not require much more than salad oil, so I stand corrected.

But on an over-boosted 1.6L engine typically spending a lot of time near redline, I simply cannot mess around and cheap out on the oil, the filter or the inspections.

I got noooo slack on this car.

imidazol97 · September 2013

>I use a plastic drop cloth (very cheap, throw away afterwards).

The plastic trunk sheets at Lowes/Home Depot/garden centers serve fine for that protection.

For spills that do hit the concrete..., I recommend Dawn dish detergent with a scrub brush. Wet stain, put on 100% Dawn, scrub, add some water, scrub, repeat, repeat, flush, add Dawn, scrub, repeat. Usually does it by dilution method I've described. What's left will fade rapidly. Trisodium phosphate, the real stuff, not the California coast stuff, with bleach and scrubbing will help. But I like the Dawn.

roadburner · September 2013

On the Mazda and the BMWs I also let the dealers check them out on a regular basis. On the BMWs I change the oil at half the recommended interval so the dealer sees the car at @15,000 mile intervals. My Mazda dealer gave me free oil changes for as long as I own the car, so I take it in every 7,500 miles and I'm only out the cost of the 5W-30 Mobil 1(Mazda doesn't specify synthetic for the turbo motor- go figure).

stever · September 2013

I got noooo slack on this car.

Someone on this site has to be the voice of the clueless, Point A to Point B, "wow, nice appliance" consumer.

I think only Doc knows what it's like in the real world where car maintenance means jumping it when it won't start.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

A man should bet no more than he can afford to lose.

Your vehicle owes you nothing--you're way ahead already. If you want you can go buy another one with 190K on it for not much money.

But my engine blows up, the car's a total even though it's in very fine condition. So basically I lose $10,000 bucks in 30 seconds and then have to spend another $15,000 to replace it. It's an expensive afternoon.

stever · September 2013

But, but, I've been doing that from day one. My notes show an oil/filter change on 11/17/99; Walmart 10w30, Fram filter. Total was $7.29. The very first oil change was $5 at the dealer, thanks to a coupon. Inflation is killing me, lol.

I thought my '82 Tercel was a gem but the V-6 in this Nissan is the real deal.

busiris · September 2013

"Yep, oil plug replacement is mandatory in a MINI. "

You have to wonder how many quickie lube shops, if any at all, replace the drain plug during oil changes on Minis...

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

We (the Royal We) do not take our MINI to such places.

It's a little dinky plastic plug. How much torque could it possibly take, and how often?

ohenryx · September 2013

On my 2008 Passat, VW originally did replaceable crush washers on the drain plug, but they have now changed to replacing the plug itself. There is a crush washer included which will not come off over the threads on the plug. Rock Auto has them for about a buck apiece, if you buy the box of 5. So yes, I do replace the drain plug.

On my 2003 GMC, I would expect the drain plug is original.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

If I had an old beater I'd do much more maintenance myself and feel much more assured in tearing things apart. But when you only own one nice car you tend not to "learn by doing"--I mean, sure I've taken the door apart on the MINI, the cabin filter, installed a stereo, a battery, brake pads, things like that---but do a clutch in the driveway----I don't THINK so!

thecardoc3 · September 2013

Question - what purpose does it serve to have the BCM provide switchable power to the rear washer pump?

No idea why they did that, let alone shut the circuit down over the loss of communication to the rear door module. The best part is service information only decribes how to jump power and ground to the pump to test it and they never published anything about how the BCM controls the power for the circuit.

Why not bring the power off an simple relay switched circuit that's on whenever the ignition switch in on? Bringing that power from the BCM seems like it over complicates things.

We have manufacturers that use BCM's and door modules since the 80's that could generate codes and even have serial data and bi-directional controls via a scan tool and this system has none of that. Everything had to be done by DVOM and DSO and then I still had to be wary of the potential trap that the loss of communication caused. Oh well that's what keeps the skills sharp.

busiris · September 2013

The oil drain plug on my wife's 05 non-S Mini convertible, at least by the time the 3 year maintenance was up and I started changing the oil was a traditional steel plug with a flat compressible rubber washer attached to the flange at the head of the plug. Totally reusable on any other make, IMO.

IIRC, my Bentley manual states the plug should be changed at each oil change, which I've always thought was a bit strange. But, at $4.25/plug, I never saw it as a deal breaker.

I'm going to re-read the section in the Bentley manual to see if my memory is correct. If her car ever had any type of plastic-type plug, I certainly never saw it...

Edit... The Bentley manual states to use a "new drain plug sealing washer", and to instruct the tech at any "fast lube" service facility to install and tighten the drain plug using only hand tools.

The only way to replace the sealing washer on our Mini is to replace the entire drain plug, as it's all one piece.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

I do what they tell me.

Besides, the new drain plug comes with the oil filter.

busiris · September 2013

What year model Mini do you own? I'm thinking the plug style was modified between your year model and ours, but that's just a guess...

Still, I don't blame you. As you pointed out years ago, trying to penny pinch on a Mini rarely leads to a good outcome...

stickguy · September 2013

It has been a long time since I was willing to crawl under a car and make a mess doing an oil change.

with any of the newer cars (and absolutely the ones under warranty) I take them to the dealer. For a number of reasons. One is that the Honda/Acura dealer is very price competitive with the only quick lube place I would even consider using. And they have no appointment, 60 minutes or less, service. No, not quite Jiffy Boob, but not something to plan the day around or inconvenience my wife.

so for $30-$35, I know that I am getting OEM spec oil, an OEM filter, and all the "special" fluids that Honda likes to spec. They also do a full multi-point inspection (with a written report) on brakes/tires/suspension/under the hood. Yeah, it is a quick look and basic stuff, but it gives me a benchmark, and points out areas for further research (sometimes they are just a "touch" pessimistic).

the other thing I get is a full service history at the dealer, so if anything ever happens to it (even out of warranty) I have a strong case in my defense. And better odds they cover it.

plus I get to check out all the new cars while I am waiting.

thecardoc3 · September 2013

So will we get an answer to this? Or are you waiting for more amateur responses?

Sure you'll get an answer on this and the first part of it is that everyone has to patiently wait for the car to act up. The testing starts by connecting the scope's channel "A" to the camshaft sensor input and setting it to trigger so that the wave produced on the screen will be steady. The "B" channel is connected to the crankshaft sensor input, "C" to the power for the crankshaft sensor, and "D" for the ground circuit.

All of these connections are made at the PCM, (powertrain control module) that way the only part of the circuit that isn't directly tested for the first failure event would be the pin connections of the PCM and the PCM itself.

The problem with any other approach such as simply replacing the crankshaft sensor, or checking/cleaning/tightening pin connections first is the randomness of the failure. Any disturbance of the harness or the connectors could result in a temporary restoration of the circuit and then subsequently no other trouble found at that time. That situation leaves a customer in limbo not knowing for certain that the problem has been repaired and the only positive proof they can ever get will be if the car acts up and they confirm that it wasn't repaired. Now imagine your wife or kids out in the car and stranded somewhere when it does occur and nobody has any real proof if this is "the same problem", or a totally unrelated condition.

I'd still like to know first what the other shop did.

Lots of people worry about what was or wasn't done previously, that actually has no impact on how to proceed this time (or any time) and has to be completely blocked out as the testing is performed. Many people falsely assume that if a part was replaced and the problem is still occurring then it has to be something else.

Code says CPS, so check the CPS first.

That is correct, the code clearly describes a loss of the engine speed sensor signal while the transmission control module saw the input shaft speed signal active. The PCM also had code P0335 stored and with the report of hard to start/no-start that wasn't a surprise. There were also several other codes stored that were found during the first phase of testing. P0741 TCC stuck off, P1811 pressure control solenoid circuit and a P0300 random misfire. The customer is only concerned about the hard to start, no-start at this time so those just have to be documented and plan to deal with them later.

The basic outline of how to test this system that you see here is what gets repeated for almost any failure, its all about gathering information about how the circuit (system) works and from there how to go about testing it. It's one thing to simply say "check the crankshaft sensor" now you see how to really go about doing that. This circuit is easily tested with a four channel scope. The Toyota Sienna van transmission problem we have in the shop has me watching ten signals at the same time. The information published on it is as poor as it was for that 4-runner.

thecardoc3 · September 2013

And the poster says the salesman told him its been happening a lot..........

http://answers.edmunds.com/AnswerQuestion.aspx?questionId=178577

qbrozen · September 2013

Ah, well, sharing all the other codes certainly would have gotten a different answer from me.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

Well that sounds like hysteria--if he's getting VVT-1 codes then he's got an oil control valve issue, just like the TSB says. Now of course I have no idea what the engine is doing, what it sounds like, etc, so maybe it's more serious.

thecardoc3 · September 2013

Ah, well, sharing all the other codes certainly would have gotten a different answer from me.

What the post started with is exactly the information provided by the customer. That included what was written on the repair order from the first shop. They only mentioned the P0727 nothing else.

qbrozen · September 2013

But of course the very first thing to do is to read the codes. I assumed you did that and reported all of the codes in your first post. Since now you are saying you hadn't done that, then I change my answer to be "read the codes."

thecardoc3 · September 2013

Since now you are saying you hadn't done that, then I change my answer to be "read the codes."

That of course is part of the first phase but you should change it to say check for codes in every module. With today's highly networked vehicles codes and data in an obscure module can often provide important clues.

The car started fine for six key starts with varying lengths of operation including two short trips. When it finally acted up the cam signal was present and correct, power to the crank sensor was correct and so was the ground, the signal was fixed high. There was still a chance there was an open in the harness or the connector for the sensor so the insulation had to be stripped back and re-measured on the sensor side of the connector and it was still high and fixed. The sensor was confirmed to be bad and needed to be replaced.

This outline is what it takes to meet the customers greatest expectations, fix it right the first time. The pressure to be too cheap causes many to short cut the process and in this case slamming a sensor would have provided some relief of the symptom of the no-start/hard to start but it would also have resulted in an ever since you replaced the crankshaft sensor my car now does XXXXX. For many who don't understand the system and how it works they would twist that into the shop/tech must have done something wrong, or done something intentionally to the car that made this "new" symptom now present. Based on the information provided, what will the car do with the new crank sensor that it wouldn't do but should have been doing but was prevented by the bad one?

qbrozen · September 2013

Yes, unfortunately, multiple things can go wrong at the same time (or at least close to the same time or as a chain reaction), and only through the process of elimination can you track everything down.

Hardest part of a professional's position, I think, is relying on the customer's information. There could have been something wrong BEFORE the CPS went bad, but they either didn't notice or failed to inform you. So having multiple problems that are compounding each other muddies the water.

My wife is my only customer (well, my only regular customer. I do often get family/friends/coworkers asking me for on-the-spot diagnoses.) and she can drive me nuts with the lack of information or lack of reporting problems. I try to drive each car at least once a month so I can be on the lookout for unreported problems. The professional, of course, doesn't have that advantage.

stever · September 2013

When I used to listen to Car Talk, there'd be one of those on every show. The brothers would throw out their ideas and then 5 minutes into the call, the caller would go, oh, "by the way, the engine was replaced the week before this happened."

thecardoc3 · September 2013

The brothers would throw out their ideas and then 5 minutes into the call, the caller would go, oh, "by the way, the engine was replaced the week before this happened."

LOL, the worst part of that is it could be very essential information, and it could easily be a red herring.

roadburner · September 2013

I quit listening to Car Talk when they joined the Safety [non-permissible content removed] and started calling for limits on horsepower(incredibly, they thought the first generation M Roadster-with only 240 net hp-was "too powerful").
I infrequently read their newspaper column and a couple of times their answers were dead wrong, so after that I had little use for them.

fintail · September 2013

Well, when you are used to Darts and Mitsu Expos, anything over 150hp probably seems scary. Sadly, there are probably quite a few people like that out there.

Now that the show is out of production, I think they use recycled bits from random ancient times. Caller calls in with an 88 Corolla, 50K miles on it...taped in 199-what?

A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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