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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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Comments

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,863
    Hell, I use an old-school bubble balancer at home. I've mounted and balanced at least 20 sets ranging from 14" to 18" in the past few years this way without a problem. Its just what I'm used to. Its the same balancer I used back when I was 7 years old working in my dad's shop.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Hell, I use an old-school bubble balancer at home.

    You would add yourself to bearcats list of people who couldn't balance his tires with that.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    What was that I heard? You want the balance free with the tire purchase?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    edited December 2012
    Yep, that's it, too!

    Most places around here do the mount/balance for about $60. The local Ford dealership charges $90 for theirs, but they also use the Hunter RF9700. What I find is that not only are the tires better balanced (although I've never had an out-of-balance that was noticeable at under 70 mph, which is where 99% of my driving occurs), but the amount of weight used to balance them seems to be considerably less. Of course, that's on the same rims, but with different tires, so the tires themselves could be the difference?

    I'm not sure why, but for some reason that just seems worth an extra $30 to me.

    The only thing that bugs me is that there isn't a differential rate for mounted vs. unmounted wheels (meaning on or off a vehicle). It seems to me that changing tires on rims that are mounted on a vehicle should take more time and effort than ones that are not... yet the price is the same. :confuse:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,863
    You would add yourself to bearcats list of people who couldn't balance his tires with that.

    Probably. Sounds like his wheels and/or tires are really messed up. Luckily, all the ones I have done haven't had that problem. I even balanced out the set that the BMW dealership told me was bent. Still running them now.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,204
    The tires and the wheels are not perfectly round.
    I'm pretty sure the there is a way to even that out, then balance the whole thing.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    In talking with a guy at the Ford shop, he said the first thing they do when balancing is offset the heaviest point on the tire opposite the heaviest point on the wheel.

    Is that what you're saying?
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • oldbearcatoldbearcat Member Posts: 197
    I had tires balanced for years with the old bubble balancers, and, never had problems. My son has one. If he didn't live 200 miles from me, I'd took the Honda to him. Bet he'd done a better job than the chain tire store did. The Mercedes dealer here uses a road force balancer and gets 'em perfect. A couple of years ago, I needed tires for an 06 Jaguar, and had them pick up the tires from the tire store and mount and balance them. Yeah, it cost me a bit more - but - they actually found that two of the new tires were out of specification with the road force balancer, and, made the tire dealer replace them.
    Now a story about some of the crap I've run into. A few years ago, I went to a big national retailer and bought a set of tires for a 95 Chrysler LHS. I got the car back, and, headed home, which involved a 10 mile interstate run. As soon as I got on the interstate, I had violent wheel shake, so I went back to their auto center for a re-balance. From their waiting room, I was watching their guy work on my car. He didn't even put it on a lift or take the wheels off. As I watched, he took a tire pressure guage and let air out of all 4 tires. a few minutes later, they told me my car was all fixed. I went out, got my tire pressure guage out, and verified that I now had 25 psi in all 4 tires. I went back in, grabbed a store manager, and showed him what they did. Then I made him refund all the balancing charges, and, I went to another shop and had them balance the wheels correctly.

    Regards:
    Oldbearcat
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Now a story about some of the crap I've run into

    Right back at you.

    I was given a repair order for a complaint of wheel/tire vibration. We used a bubble balancer back then and we would use four weights which had us putting the weights at a 60 degree angle on each side of the wheel. I could then slide the weights towards each other a little to make them "heavier" if I needed a little more weight or if I had a little too much I could slide them apart from each other to make them "lighter". Back in those days, this was easily "good enough". I road tested the car and it was fine. The next day the guy was back and it was vibrating like crazy again. I put the first tire on the balancer and it was off by about three ounces! I rebalanced the tire, but there was no way that I had missed by that much, something was going on here. I picked the tire up off of the balancer, and bounced it. and then put it back on. It was again off by three ounces.

    This guy had been using so much stop leak in his tires that it was like a ball of wet newspaper inside the tire, in fact all four of them were like that.

    I had to take the tires apart, clean all of that trash out of the tires, replaced the bad valve stems, cleaned the rust from wheel beads, and patched one of the tires and rebalanced them. I didn't get paid a cent for all of that because "it was a comeback".
  • bartbarterbartbarter Member Posts: 39
    they do charge more to take the tires off the car. I can get tires mounted and balanced for $10, including tire disposal. And, they're open, not 24 7 but almost all the time. National chain. I wouldn't let them touch anything on my car though.

    Interesting turn of discussion. My 03 Grand Marquis has a hard to fix slight back and forth wobble, and the Marauder guys say it's common, and needs road force balanced, with hot tires.

    That bugs the heck out of me.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,122
    edited December 2012
    >slight back and forth wobble,

    I would assess that to be bad belts in a tire or bent rim. Out of round tires give more of an up and down movement.

    Road force balancers can ameliorate out-of-roundness due to differences in compression of the tire at different parts of its circumference. The tech measures the rim for its high point and then places the high part of the tire at the low part of the rim hoping they will reduce the effective out-of-roundness. If a tire or rim is out a lot, then the tech can move the tire to another rim which has more variation if available. After reducing out-of-roundness as much as possible, then the balancer spins the tire for dynamic balancing: they do not correct for out-of-roundness due to compression variation in the spin balancing.

    Does your waddle change if tires are moved to front/back?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,863
    damn. that's a good one.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • bartbarterbartbarter Member Posts: 39
    Thanks. That is very interesting.

    I've changed rims tires all tie rod ends lower bjs and upper control arms. I know that drives some folks crazy :) But boy, is the front end tighter, and each thing made the wobble a little smaller. Should've done the lower control arms and struts too while I was there, but it's all about the money. Looking forward to upgrading the struts.

    After much wailing and gnashing of teeth I found out that the 03+ panthers can have this problem. They are extremely sensitive to their balancing for some reason. I'll report back when I have the road force done.

    But what kills me (and comes back to this thread somewhat) is blankityblank reliability! Simplicity. My old cars might not handle as 'well', but I could balance the tires and drive away.

    Pete
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay, here's an interesting problem:

    A guy over in another topic has an Audi that eats the *inside* of his front tires every 10,000 miles. He insists that the suspension has been checked over, the car's been on a frame machine, and that there is no suspension problem. My contention was that it HAS to be a suspension problem (camber). Both tires wear pretty much equally on their insides, except he says that the driver's side a bit more perhaps.

    ideas? What besides a suspension problem could cause what seems to be symptomatic of excessive camber?
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Is he running original wheels and size tires?

    Couldn't an aftermarket wheel that had the incorrect offset cause that sort of wear?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    My fintail used to do something like that. Worn kingpins. I am guessing the Audi lacks those :shades:
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    It's best not to guess on this. Let's start with the alignment settings and specifications including the ackerman angle otherwise known as toe-out-on-turns.

    Wear on the inside edge of the tires is far more likely to be toe angle related today than camber.

    What kind of driving does he do, a combination of in-town and highway or does he tend to spend more time in town as compared to highway or vice-versa?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2012
    He says he does not drive in any abnormal way and just uses a car like everybody else---mixed city/freeway.

    He also says that Audi assured him a number of times that the car is completely within spec.

    I suggested that someone might be dropping the ball on inspecting this car's front end but he wasn't keen on hearing that, given that he's been assured so many times by Audi AND his mechanic.

    Aside from the aftermarket wheel angle (which was a very good alternative explanation) I can't see how suspension could NOT be involved.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Hell, I use an old-school bubble balancer at home.

    On another interesting note...two nitro funny car owners differed when it came to balancing their tires which run up to 300 mph. John Force had a high speed balancer. Next to him was the Hawaiian Punch funny car. A quick peek revealed...guess what....a bubble balancer.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    About $10,000 in difference......

    While I believe in the quality of snap on tools. Their low speed (hand crank) balancer leaves much to be desired. While I have successfully balanced tires using the Snap on balancer at times the results were inconsistent. In other words customers have returned with vibrations that they didn't have prior to coming to the shop.

    I understand the $10K price difference and it appears you don't specialize in tires making the Hunter 9700 difficult to justify. I'm just wondering if there are better balancers out there for the $4K paid for Snap on's version.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    He also says that Audi assured him a number of times that the car is completely within spec.

    Just getting it "in the green" isn't always good enough. Today's alignment machines produce a print out of the specs, and the current settings. I need to see the specs. Today many cars don't come with full adjustment capability, and it comes down to aftermarket solutions to make full adjustments.

    Scrub radius (wheel offset) issues can cause some tire wear complaints but the bigger problem comes down to improper loading and subsequent hub or wheel bearing wear.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    While I believe in the quality of snap on tools. Their low speed (hand crank) balancer leaves much to be desired.

    With wheels that mount up correctly it's "fine" mode allows me to balance the assembly dynamically to within two grams.

    The problem comes down to wheel designs that just refuse to cleanly mount with the available centering cones. The balance, then reposition and recheck routine catches the problem wheels all the time. The trick then is to be patient and see if a solution can be arrived at, one wheel at a time.

    As far as justifying a $14,000 balancer, I can't really justify owning the $4000 one, I'm a driveability/electronics/repair shop and have no employee's. I wouldn't sell enough tires in a month to even make enough gross profit to cover the payment on a new balancer.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Next to him was the Hawaiian Punch funny car. A quick peek revealed...guess what....a bubble balancer.

    http://www.hotrod.com/thehistoryof/retrospective/hrdp_1005_getting_to_know_rolan- d_leong/photo_16.html

    Enuogh said.... :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    it comes down to aftermarket solutions to make full adjustments

    You mean the BIG hammer? :D
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    On some cars (trucks and vans) you bend the axle with hydraulic power. :)

    This wouldn't be the first time someone decided to take a hammer to an Audi.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    This wouldn't be the first time someone decided to take a hammer to an Audi.

    LOl, this could get out of control in a hurry...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    image
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    image

    That's the car that had it's tires balanced on a bubble balancer.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    This was a first time customer who was referred to us. He's been dealing with a repeated check engine light for more than a year and it always came up with the code description for a large evaporative emissions leak. It's had no less than three gas caps put on it, several smoke tests, the canister vent valve has been replaced and every time the light simply came right back on in a couple of days.

    When diagnosing any evap failure, the first step is to understand the particular system that is on the car you need to diagnose, and how the car's computer tests the system. Then you can start testing the system just like the computer on the car does.

    From "an instructors" point of view the pull a code and guess a part approach fails the moment that no effort is put into trying to understand how the system works. For this customer, three parts stores pulled the code and all three sold him a gas cap. On a second visit to one of them he was sold the canister vent valve.

    He went to several shops requesting a smoke test of the system. A smoke test uses a pressurized system to pump smoke into the fuel tank and the carbon cannister and it's hoses and lines. If the system has a leak, the smoke shows where it's at. (most of the time) The smoke tests could not locate a leak.

    He came to my shop requesting a smoke test, I told him a better approach would be to simply allow us to diagnose the problem, and I would use my smoke machine as part of that process if necessary.

    He agreed to that approach.

    As I mentioned, the first step is to be sure that you understand the system. The second step of the diagnostics is to attach a scan tool, retrieve the code and begin the process of testing the system. You must do this while forgetting everything else that you have been told has been checked/replaced/tested. (Any ideas why I mentioned that right here?)

    What is the next step and why?

    How would you proceed with testing this system to repair the problem?

    BTW, it was really refreshing to have this customer be appreciative for us solving this problem for him.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Yes, I remember it. The link was the owner of that car instructing another driver about how to drive through wheel shake. :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    What is the next step and why?

    Go to the Chevy dealer and buy an OEM gas cap and quit using aftermarket ones from the auto parts stores. :D
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Go to the Chevy dealer and buy an OEM gas cap and quit using aftermarket ones from the auto parts stores.

    All kidding aside, that of course would have only cost the owner more money and you just added yourself to the list of people who failed to give this owner an answer, the first time that you looked at the car.

    This is a real case study, either you know the correct proceedure to diagnose the car, or you don't.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    Although, per forum posts here over the years, that option has "fixed" quite a few recurring CEL problems for people.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Although, per forum posts here over the years, that option has "fixed" quite a few recurring CEL problems for people.

    That mistaken belief is one of the reasons why I (or at least someone who really does know better) should have been around here a long time ago.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    It's pretty simple from the point of view from the other side of the counter.

    The most common reason for a CEL coming on is a loose gas cap. If tightening that doesn't work the next step I'd take is to get on the net and find the bad cap and O2 sensor posts. Then I'd go buy an OEM gas cap. If that doesn't work, I'd take it back to the dealer and get my money back (less a 20% restocking fee perhaps). So far I'm out my time and maybe $4 and some gas or shipping costs). Big whoop. If it works I'm golden.

    If the easy stuff fails I look for real help (since 02 sensors can be pricey and typically can't be returned as easily as non-electrical parts).
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Then I'd go buy an OEM gas cap. If that doesn't work, I'd take it back to the dealer and get my money back (less a 20% restocking fee perhaps)

    So then if they try to sell it to the next person and they realize that it's already been enjoyed once by someone else and they get upset because they have been sold a "used part" instead of a "new one". In that customers eye's someone is being a theif and ripping them off.

    It's pretty simple from the point of view from the other side of the counter

    Yea, you might just as well keep the new cap and out your old one back in the box to return.... That's how it would look to another customer on your side of the counter. That's how it would look to you if you opened the box and found the cap you just bought had already been tried.

    In real numbers, barely 1% of evap failures are caused by faulty gas caps, claiming anything else is intentionally misleading to the consumer. Now why would you want to do that?

    Loose caps are caught by the systems because today they run a specific series of tests that are triggered by an increase in the level in the fuel tank.

    You have said numerous times that you want the cars to be able to 'self diagnose" more completely and to a certain extent that has happened. They have managed to make it pretty cut and dry how diagnostics should be performed and just how obvious blind guesses by untrained individuals are nothing more than that.

    Feel free to admitt that you have no clue about how to really approach this anytime. The sad part is, what I use is a very simple, repeatable routine that has a technician arrive at the correct answer THE FIRST TIME, and EVERY TIME, no matter where the failure is. Guess you should be able to see why it was somewhat refreshing to have had a customer that was glad we were there to help him.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    (Any ideas why I mentioned that right here?)

    Make assumptions that something isn't a problem because it was already tested/replaced, and you're going to make the whole process that much more difficult for yourself.

    What is the next step and why?

    Assuming an understanding of the system (which you noted as step 1), I'd say that the next step is to replicate conditions that should cause that DTC to set, in order to verify that the OBD system is working correctly.

    How would you proceed with testing this system to repair the problem?

    Then, I'd test the parts of the system that fed into it to determine which part(s) was(were) out of spec.

    Sorry, but since I haven't a clue how that system is looped, I can't get any more specific than that.

    ---

    I'm curious about two things (in addition to your general solution methodology & the actual problem in this case): 1. How long did it take to diagnose, and then fix, the issue, and 2. Appx. much did the customer end up paying?

    I'm glad to hear that the customer was appreciative in this case. He tried the other method, failed, and knew it was time for something better! :shades:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    I take "used" stuff back all the time and store repackage and resell it all the time. Go in to the back of most any store and you'll see a shrinkwrap machine they expressly use for this purpose. Bit of a red herring issue; if a parts store doesn't want parts returned, they can post a sign and not accept returns, and check boxes when they do take returns and make sure the part isn't scratched and dinged.

    In real numbers, barely 1% of evap failures are caused by faulty gas caps, claiming anything else is intentionally misleading to the consumer. Now why would you want to do that?

    In the real world many CEL lights come on because of loose gas caps. A $20 exercise at AutoZone or NAPA is cheaper than going to the shop.

    If a customer called you and said their CEL was on but they couldn't stop by your shop for 3 days, would you tell them to check their gas cap and perhaps ask them when someone last filled up the car?

    (As an aside, did you see where the most recent Ford recall for potential engine fires is going to be addressed by a software fix?).
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    I take "used" stuff back all the time and store repackage and resell it all the time

    Many returned items never make it back to a stores shelves. Too much of a risk of dissapointing the next customer. These items need to be sent back to the manufacturer who can inspect them, and then they must use another routine to re-release them or else just scrap them.

    In the real world many CEL lights come on because of loose gas caps. A $20 exercise at AutoZone or NAPA is cheaper than going to the shop.

    Not anymore they don't. My 2002 Ford Explorer has a check fuel cap light that is seperate from the check engine light. When you refuel that car (and many others just like it) the computer runs the large leak test and compares that result to stored test results from previous tests. The system then knows for certain if the newest result is different from previous test results and in the case of my Explorer would turn on the loose cap light and not store a pending code for the evap system. Now the next time the test runs and it detects a leak, then the system stores the pending code. Then only after the third time the test would find a leak it sets the gross leak code and now turns the light on.

    Cars not equippped with the loose cap light set a specific code for a large leak, seperate from the SAE code and again it's because of weighted testing results that are compared to previous tests.

    If a customer called you and said their CEL was on but they couldn't stop by your shop for 3 days, would you tell them to check their gas cap and perhaps ask them when someone last filled up the car?

    No. The questions that I am going to ask are:
    Is the car running normally? Are you having any trouble with it running rough, stalling, difficult to start or is or has the check engine light been flashing?

    The moment someone touches the cap once the light has come on, the only thing that they really accomplish is make it impossible to prove if the cap's being loose caused the light to be on. To a technician it ends up being an intermittent failure condition and you can only assume the cap must have been loose, you don't actually know for certain if it was or was not.

    By touching the cap, and now we get a "no trouble found" it's quite common for the light to come back on within the next few weeks and now it's "a second trip back to the shop" because they didn't fix it the first time.

    BTW, with some cars that have ORVR (on-board refueling vapor recovery) systems you can leave the cap completely off and it doesn't care because the filler neck is sealed off down below closer to the tank. Cars that test themselves with pressure cannot test the filler neck with an ORVR system and it makes for a nice little puzzle for the technicians when I do as a hands on portion of an evap class that I teach. We make the monitor run with the gas cap off of the car and it passes. This does not work with cars that use vacuum to test themselves, they will catch the cap loose/missing.

    As an aside, did you see where the most recent Ford recall for potential engine fires is going to be addressed by a software fix?.

    No, haven't paid any attention to that at all. First we don't do recalls as an independent. The reflashes that we do but are totally software driven and pretty much a hands off operations outside of telling the computer yes, do the reflash and then exercising the ignition switch as the system commands.
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Assuming an understanding of the system (which you noted as step 1), I'd say that the next step is to replicate conditions that should cause that DTC to set, in order to verify that the OBD system is working correctly.

    In a round about way that is correct. The code sets because the computer seals the system by closing the cannister vent valve and then opening the purge valve in order to pull the system into a vacuum. (about 8"-12" in water) Then the purge valve is then turned off and the computer watches the vacuum bleed up rate. By knowing the fuel level, and therefore how much space is air/vapor in the tank it can calculate if the bleed up rate is excessive (leak detected) or not (system sealed).

    So the first step is to command the vent valve closed with the scan tools bi-directional 'controls. The vent valve will make an audible "click" when it opens and closes.
    The Cobalts cannister vent valve could not be heard to be closing/opening.
    That means the system cannot test itself. Two questions need to be thought of and then proven/disproven at this time.
    If the problem is electrical, why isn't there a code for the vent valve's circuit?
    The customer (allegedly) already replaced the vent valve so does that mean it's a mechanical issue with the "new" valve?

    With these two questions in mind it's time to do pinpoint testing on the vent valve and it's circuit.

    The purge valve is tested in a similar fashion, first command it to operate with the engine off and simply listen for it. If you cannot hear it, then specific testing for it, and/or it's circuit is required. If you can hear it then you need to start the engine and see if you can control the vacuum to the system. The Cobalt's purge valve passed these checks.

    1. How long did it take to diagnose, and then fix, the issue, and 2. Appx. much did the customer end up paying?

    The time to locate the exact failure was about half an hour, the time to actually repair the wiring harness damage that I found was about an hour, including doing the post repair testing that was required to make sure that the car would then pass it's monitor the next time that it ran. Our diagnostic/electrical labor rate is $115/hr. People often gasp at that but in reality a shop hanging brakes or doing suspension work or exhaust is realizing more profit per hour than we are with that diagnostic rate and they don't have to spend a dime to do that kind of work they way we do with scan tools, software and schools.

    1.5hrs at $115 with the sales tax and he was out the door with the car working correctly for about $185. Consider that he had already spent over $400 while failing to fix this over the last year.

    Now one of the things we don't do is go on a treasure hunt on the cars. I don't go over the whole car trying to find a grocery list of services to sell. We go straight in at the problem that the car came in for, and straight back out. I wouldn't be able to keep a job at a chain store working like that, I wouldn't be selling enough to keep the management happy.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The moment someone touches the cap once the light has come on, the only thing that they really accomplish is make it impossible to prove if the cap's being loose caused the light to be on. To a technician it ends up being an intermittent failure condition and you can only assume the cap must have been loose, you don't actually know for certain if it was or was not.

    Heaven forbid if I need to get to your shop and I'm two hours away and my fuel light just came on too. :shades:

    The Escape recall was interesting to me because the only other reflash fixes I remember had to do with driveability issues, like shift points. Being able to reduce the risk of an engine fire with software is a pretty good trick and illustrates how the new cars aren't your father's Oldsmobile.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,863
    Our diagnostic/electrical labor rate is $115/hr. People often gasp at that

    Hell, that's cheap compared to a BMW dealer.

    I didn't get to answer your question originally, but I did just go through this on my volvo. Its a '98 and I've already had extensive experience with another '98 some years ago. Code was the massive evap leak. First thing I did was go to the dealer and buy a gas cap because, in my experience with this car, it is what was stated above: the most common issue.

    Cleared the code and drove for about 5 days before it came back. There are 2 more common things on this car. One being the purge valve and the other being clogged vent. Before testing the valve, I decided to get underneath and inspect the vent. No clog. But then I inspected the canister and after removing some brackets in the way, I found a split air line. Removed, trimmed, reinstalled, and cleared the code again. So far so good, but I'll want to see a couple of weeks without a light before I feel I've solved it.

    Now, I know you aren't happy with my process. Should I have jacked up the car and gone through the whole troubleshooting first? Maybe some people should. But if $24 for the gas cap saved me the 30 mins I spent on fix #2, it would have been worth it to me. And, certainly, $24 total spend is a helluva lot less than a professional shop diagnostic fee. And, no, I'm not returning the cap because I know it to be such a common failure point that I might as well keep this one and know I'm good for about 4-5 years.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    he was out the door with the car working correctly for about $185.

    That's a great deal for him. Plus, he's a happy customer that will be back (but only when another problem comes up that stumps him). If I could have found a local mechanic that could solve my '96 Outback's issues a decade ago, I would have stumbled over myself trying to get to that place! As it was, I spent around that same $400 for no resolution at all.

    Also, thanks for sharing more information on the process - it's very interesting stuff and clearly illustrates the investment required (time, tools, and education/training).
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Where I live common labor rates are at $140/hr now. I'm fine with that, if they are efficient AND correct.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    ...to actually repair the wiring harness damage that I found ...

    So, what caused the damage to the wiring harness?

    And didn't you tell us about another problem (SUV liftgate?), that people were throwing BCMs at and that turned out to be a wiring harness issue?
  • thecardoc3thecardoc3 Member Posts: 5,737
    Cleared the code and drove for about 5 days before it came back

    Snip

    Now, I know you aren't happy with my process. Should I have jacked up the car and gone through the whole troubleshooting first? Maybe some people should

    If there is something that I'm not happy about it's the fact that there are those who keep claiming that all someone has to do is tighten or replace a fuel cap for an evbap issue when what you have here is the reality, the caps rarely fix the evaporative system problems. .
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,747
    *sigh*

    As we talk about the complexity of modern cars and all these systems they have, I still can't help but appreciate how "clean" cars operate today. Last night, I used my plow truck ('76 F250) for about an hour clearing mine and my neighbors' driveways along with our cul-de-sac. I had my coat, boots, gloves, and hat donned at the time.

    This morning, when I put on my coat to go to work, it still smelled like "old truck." You know, that mixed fume smell that only an old vehicle can create. ;)
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,863
    the caps rarely fix the evaporative system problems

    I can't speak for all makes models. I only know what I know, which is a cap solved exactly the same code on my last '98 S70, as well as the same code for dozens of other owners.

    I would never claim that to be the fix for any other make/model unless I knew it to be a common problem for that car.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,122
    The cap has been the problem on my leSabre 3 times over 8 or more years. Each time cleaning the o-ring and the mating surface, lubing same, and reinstalling then waiting for the car to have the requisite conditions to run the check for leaks showed the problem had been solved.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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