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The Current State of the US Auto Market

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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The Cruze is from Europe, basically. The Cobalt was discontinued...forever.

    The most sales point to the most desirable products. The ones that don't sell or have issues that determine their demise are discontinued. :)
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    No. I'd rather a company admitted to and fixed a problem than ignored it. That's CR's position too. Cars today are so complex and the redesigns happen so often there are bound to be problems. Also, many times the problem only affects a small percentage of cars, but they replace/fix the problem for everyone. My 9 year old Vibe had a recall this summer -- I've never personally encountered the problem it was fixing, but nice to know it won't happen now.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What sucks is when you have a common problem and they know it's bad, but won't fix it.

    Tough luck.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    The Cruze is from Europe, basically. The Cobalt was discontinued...forever.

    If you want to get picky, the Cobalt was somewhat European, as well. It was built on the Delta platform, as was the Opel and Vauxhall Astra, the Saturn Ion, and finally the Saturn Astra.

    The Malibu has some European heritage as well, or at least it did from 2004 until the 2013 redesign. It was based on the 2002 Opel Vectra C.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    "No one...and it's indisputable...has more recalls than Toyota. In your mind, does that make them worse than other cars with fewer recalls?"

    Just my opinion, but the total number of recalls is secondary... It's the number of recalls to repair severe safety issues and operational malfunctions, coupled with the frequency of those episodes that is most important.

    Few would be fearful of their car if a recall was issued stating the steering wheel might fall off if the number of cars recalled was 100 and total production was 1,000,000 units. However, given the same recall, and the same quantity recalled, but total production units at the number of 1000 might cause an owner to feel quite differently.

    Now, I have no idea which manufacturer would fall into the "most severe" category. It's entirely possible the listing order might be the same, but I somehow doubt it.

    All recalls aren't equal.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    For the most part, recalls mean an admitted problem that hasn't occurred yet.

    A scheduled visit that can be handled during an oil change.

    Un-recalled problem areas such as a bad transmission, bad head gaskets, or other failure-prone parts could result in an unscheduled emergency shop visit, or worse yet, a tow truck service.

    Being reimbursed for repairs already performed due to a subsequent later recall left me with a warm and fuzzy feeling.

    I think Chrysler needs to recall every vehicle made in the 90's.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Still, by the time the data gets computed, tabulated, published, printed, and mailed out, it's probably reliability info when the car was 4 years old at best.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    No one...and it's indisputable...has more recalls than Toyota. In your mind, does that make them worse than other cars with fewer recalls?

    Like others, I don't think that's the most important statistic. It's like saying the person with the fewest doctor visits is the healthiest.

    However, it's good to find a statistic where one can point to GM being better than foreign competition, right?
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Be careful if in LA and someone at the tv screen starts to talk to you. Could be someone from the Jay Leno show. But, go along with it. You might get a free tank of gas.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    But the head honchos do all the design and source the parts . Give a little credit where credit is due. Everyone in the process bears responsibility for good and bad.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    There is absolutely no question but that the Japanese car manufacturers were in the lead with regard to quality control and quality improvement of their products vs American car manufacturers in the 1980's and 1990's. American companies were mostly in the dark and resisted the methods that the Japanese used. This was very evident to anybody who bought and owned, SIDE-BY-SIDE, American and Japanese vehicles and drove them year after year. That is the only way that one could have seen the superiority of Japanese engineering design and manufacturing.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,093
    edited September 2013
    The press was definitely on that side, and obviously a lot of Americans liked what they saw when they looked at Japanese vehicles.

    When I rented Japanese bottom-feeder cars throughout the '80's, I hated the buzziness, interior vinyl smell, one-inch-thick doors, and 'lost a hubcap' look that was standard equipment. ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My Mercury Grand Marquis has a 20-gallon tank. I believe my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe also did. My 1989 Cadillac Brougham has a 25-gallon tank, and my 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille had a 28.5 gallon tank.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited September 2013
    "When I rented Japanese bottom-feeder cars throughout the '80's, I hated the buzziness, interior vinyl smell, one-inch-thick doors, and 'lost a hubcap' look that was standard equipment. ;)"

    Seems to me that describe the domestic small cars of the 80's and 90's.

    As for cheap plastic/vinyl smell, GM should have had a patent on that for the past few decades. My friend's C5 corvette's cheesy interior gives off such a nasty aroma of cheep plastic it almost makes my eyes water. Same with my Suburban. After sitting out in the sun all day it smelled caustic inside and that wasn't a cheap import.

    That was in the past, and most domestics have improved dramatically since those days. Well except for the '13 Dodge Avenger I drove the other day, the interior had that old familiar nasty smell. They rest of the car pretty much stunk too.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    "My Mercury Grand Marquis has a 20-gallon tank. I believe my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe also did. My 1989 Cadillac Brougham has a 25-gallon tank, and my 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille had a 28.5 gallon tank."

    My wife's Taurus has a 19 gallon tank which is nice and gives a long cruising range.

    Thankfully my Ram has a 32 gallon tank. The standard 26 or so gallon tank in a 1/2 ton just doesn't cut it. Particularly when towing and only getting 8-10 mpg.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    >I hated the buzziness, interior vinyl smell, one-inch-thick doors, and 'lost a hubcap' look that was standard equipment.

    Naaah. That was quality design, thrifty and quiet engine design, and good quality overall for the foreign invaders.

    As to the US-brands, those are major flaws typical of how awful FCGM designed and built cars and how "behind-the-times" they were.

    >
    So actually, let's hear about some flaws in the foreign brands from those who are usually critical of those awful US-based cars?

    In another forum the usual Honda, BMW, etc., superiority posts were threatened by someone posting about their Hyundai Sonata and the quality offered and present there. The status quo was being threatened and some of the foreign car advocates didn't like someone daring to challenge their opinions. I found the discussion by two Hyundai owners interesting because as I search for a sedan to replace 1 or 2 cars in the near future, I have sat in the various Kia products, including Cadenza, and only escaped being strong-armed into a test drive by allowing the salesman to pull my shirt off as I slipped out of the sleeve to get back to my 98 leSabre. On one of my visits to the local Kia store, I expect to see boots on my car's wheels so I can't leave. Some high pressure there.

    But I found interesting when the truthful discussion of the flaws of the foreign brands from the usual advocates started. It was information beyond reading the usual problems embedded in forums about each foreign model here.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Wow! By that standard, McDonald's makes the most awesome hamburger in the world!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    It didn't matter to me. The Japanese could've built a car that could go through a steel-reinforced concrete wall unscathed and I still wouldn't have bought one because they were too dang small and way too ugly!

    "Yeah, she's a kind loving wife, the sex is out of this world, she's a world-class cook, and a wonderful mother, but she's only 4' 8" and as ugly as a mule's butt!"
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    No surprises and you always get what you pay for - consistent "quality".
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Nothing is perfect. Some are better than others and it does come down to personal taste at the end of the day.

    If reliability was my first priority, I would have bought a Tundra . I simply liked the Ram better. But I would bet a '14 tundra is more reliable over time vs any domestic truck. But considering many other factors, that doesn't mean it's the best truck.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    "Yeah, she's a kind loving wife, the sex is out of this world, she's a world-class cook, and a wonderful mother, but she's only 4' 8" and as ugly as a mule's butt!"

    Well, if she also had a flat head that would be one redeeming feature. Someplace to rest your beer...
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    ... I have sat in the various Kia products, including Cadenza, and only escaped being strong-armed into a test drive by allowing the salesman to pull my shirt off as I slipped out of the sleeve to get back to my 98 leSabre.

    Imid, beyond the meaningless hyperbole there, you really should try one of the foreign makes. Then you would have a few years (as opposed to a few minutes) of actual comparison and you could offer us all a really good commentary over time about your experiences foreign vs. domestic.

    Just saying it would be a good balancing experience.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    U.S. Fines Auto-Parts Makers $740 Million for Price-Fixing (WSJ)

    "Most parts markers that have pleaded guilty over the last two years are based in Japan."
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I thought corporate criminals only existed in the US;)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    edited September 2013
    > you really should try one of the foreign makes.

    Oh, I've been checking out those all along. Accord has CVT on 4-cyl otherwise it would be a car I'd test drive. Now that Accord is supposed to be quieter now that they've quit minimizing the weight for soundproofing such as windshield I'd check it out. But with Honda's long known transmission problems and failure to fi them now in the aging Odyssey fleet short of $6000 replacements with rebuilds with same problems, I can't bring myself since owners are reporting problems with CVT in 4-cylinders.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    edited September 2013
    Regarding the efficient and effective and loving wife.

    Confirms the old saying - You cannot tell a book by its cover.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Regarding trying out foreign makes -

    Or even another American brand. A while back somebody posted their acquaintance of a senior citizen who through his entire driving life only owned Fords. No problem with that in that here in the U.S., so far, we can buy anything we desire. Wonder if the Ford-for-life guy ever looked at and test drove Chevies, Dodges, Pontiacs, Buicks, etc and foreign brands in the Ford size/price point level he was buying. In all of those years, if he did comparison shop, was there ever, ever some other brand that was a little or much better than the Ford he always chose??
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes but when the Japanese corporate criminals are caught red-handed, they usually have the decency to apologize to family, fellow employees and country, and then retire forever, or commit suicide out of disgrace.

    Here they just print up new business cards.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited September 2013
    I'd bet the odds of getting a bad trans in a Honda is fairly low. I've had several family members who've owned multiple Odyssey's, Pilot's and MDX's and none have had trans problems.

    My dad is hard on transmissions. He doesn't come to a complete stop when shifting from reverse to drive (which I've always thought was very hard on a transmission), I'd guess he often is going 1-3 mph when he shifts to drive. Ironically he's never had a trans fail and he keeps his cars to very high miles. Even his '09 v6 Accord has withstood that abuse and he's got over 100k on it. Granted the engine his engine hasn't been so fortunate. But Honda has been more than great with taking care of his engine issues.

    As for noise. I don't find his EX-L v6 objectionably loud. Sure, you can hear road noise, but it's not horrible IMO.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    "Here they just print up new business cards."

    And give themselves another huge bonus...
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    "When I rented Japanese bottom-feeder cars throughout the '80's, I hated the buzziness, interior vinyl smell, one-inch-thick doors, and 'lost a hubcap' look that was standard equipment. "

    That description fits the early model Chrysler LeBaron K-car that my FIL purchased... The one that talked to you.

    Definitely not Chrysler's finest hour...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My impression (unscientific) is that the domestics have a lot longer list of TSBs.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    edited September 2013
    That description fits the early model Chrysler LeBaron K-car that my FIL purchased... The one that talked to you.

    My uncle briefly owned an early '82 Plymouth Reliant sedan, in 1989. You could tell it was an early '82 because it had stationary windows in back...they didn't start making them roll-down until later in the model year. I drove it, once. Miserable little car. I timed it with a stopwatch, and got 0-60 in around 25 seconds I think. I also remember taking a tape measure to the inside, and being surprised that shoulder room was something like 58.5". I measured door panel to door panel though, and I'm not sure that's where they always take the measurement. I don't think the published specs were that generous. Anyway, it was wider inside than the '89 Gran Fury I owned a few years later. BUT, the doors on that Reliant were paper-thin! The Gran Fury's doors were nice and thick.

    My uncle also had an '88 LeBaron turbo coupe, and that was actually a pretty nice car. He sold it to me when I was married, and I let the ex have it in the divorce. It was a total piece by 118,000 miles when it finally got retired, but I'd say it was a pretty good car up to around 90,000 miles.

    One of my friends back in college had a 1980 Accord hatchback. It was aging horribly...interior falling apart, rusting, etc. But one thing I'll say for it, its sheetmetal actually seemed pretty thick. It was also a surprisingly good highway cruiser. Took awhile to get there, but at 80 mph, it was quiet, no rattles, and fairly comfortable for a small car.

    Another one of my friends had a 1983 Nissan (well, Datsun back then) Stanza. Now that thing seemed about as sturdy as a beer can. Those were popular cars though...seemed like they were everywhere, for awhile. I remember his freshman year in college, he traded it for a 1989 Escort, and the Stanza was pretty much coughing, wheezing, and leaking by then, so the dealer did kind of a mercy trade for it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Japanese and Americans scandals have nothing on the Germans.

    What, no prostitutes? Psshhhh....

    Child's play.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    From AN:

    During a press conference today in Washington, top Justice officials told reporters that price-fixed parts were sold to Chrysler, Ford and General Motors, as well as to the U.S. subsidiaries of Honda, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota and Fuji Heavy Industries, parent company of Subaru

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130926/OEM10/130929921/9-japanese-suppliers-2-- execs-to-plead-guilty-in-u.s.-price-fixing#ixzz2g1ZXIQVM
    Follow us: @Automotive_News on Twitter | AutoNews on Facebook

    For the folks who don't realize how global the supply chain has become.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I really, really hope mine is included:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/26/toyota-sienna-rollaway-recall/

    Last time I got a free car wash. Cleanest condition it's ever been in.

    It was the recall for rusty spare tire chains, even though mine was unaffected they still replaced it and washed my van.

    I think that was 2011.

    I haven't washed it since. :D

    PLEASE wish me luck! Re-call! Re-call! Re-call!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited September 2013
    "My impression (unscientific) is that the domestics have a lot longer list of TSBs."

    I'll bet your spot on. :)

    Here's a link for the Cobalt.

    http://www.alldatadiy.com/TSB/10/091057jT.html
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Calendar Abnormality Will Snap 27-Month Winning Streak for Auto Industry in September, Says Edmunds.com

    image
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,093
    Man, nobody in their right mind enjoys a recall. It generally involves an unscheduled visit.

    BTW, here's a large recall that just posted today:

    http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2006-2010-infiniti-m-recalled-for-accelerator-se- nsor-defect.html

    No, I'm not posting only import recalls and not domestics (ahem); I post 'em as they show up.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Geez, that's longer than the rap sheet on some NFL football players. :)

    Really, that is disgraceful.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited September 2013
    Dealer is 2 miles from my house, and right next to a hardware store (100 yards away).

    Free parking, free car wash, excuse to buy new tools. :shades:

    Shifting gears a little....

    TSBs or recalls compared to quality is a loose association at best. A TSB could give service techs instructions on how to perform maintenance.

    I am much more concerned when a manufacturer does *not* issue a recall even when an issue is common and people complain on boards like these. Or no TSB even though nobody knows how to fix a common ailment. That's poor reliability and poor service.

    Edit: dealer has Cadillac and Infiniti, so those M owners might be joining me at the same hardware store. LOL
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Ah, apologist for the fascist insects! ;)

    Well course, you're right actually...the NUMBER of TSBs would have to be individually "weighted" for gravity before we made any direct relationship to reliability. However, the circumstantial evidence is compelling.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That site is hard to search, I guess you have to subscribe.

    2009 Altima is a sample they offer, and it has plenty of TSBs as well:

    http://www.alldatadiy.com/alldatadiy/DIY~G~C45827~R0~OD~N/0/138181779/138629620/- 138629625/138629629/34853741/34850750/42063452

    Plenty of the TSBs are instructions for service techs and not problems, for example:

    Navigation System - Map Data Update Index
    Suspension - Strut and Shock Absorber Replacement Guidelines

    So a TSB is not always for a problem. That's what I meant.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    You have to love the line item about 30th from the bottom of the list... "General - All units - How to Read a Wiring Diagram".

    Now, really, is that a TSB that should be necessary to distribute to repair personnel???
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,676
    I believe GM issued a TSB for the 2000 Park Avenue, so that they could change the display on the HUD so that it reads "Check Gauges" instead of "Check Gages".

    Oh, and one for the 1976 LeMans to swap out the idiot light that says "GEN" for one that says "ALT". :-P
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Or they get promoted and/or sent off to retirement with a golden parachute of benefits and lifetime pay.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,093
    edited September 2013
    Hey circlew, how's there TSB's dated from '88 (!) through '04 for the Cobalt, which was introduced for the 2005 MY?

    Just sayin'.

    Matter of fact, you put in 2009 Cobalt for specifically my daughter's car (weird), so any TSB dated prior to Sept. '08 wouldn't apply.

    That's 80% of your list.

    TSB's like 'normal oil consumption' and 'brake rotor policy' apply to all models, not just one, incidentally.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Is the Cobalt really any different than a Cavalier?

    Was more changed than just the sheet metal and the label?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,093
    edited September 2013
    You're kidding, right?

    TSB's aren't issued for future manufacturing. ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Ha, well, I see your point.

    Although, the TSB never written for my '95 Dodge having spontaneous windshield splitting would still apply to the 2013 Dodge Dart Edmunds bought :)
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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