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The Current State of the US Auto Market

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  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,653
    "It would be fun to see some stats about that."

    No doubt some Avalanches have been worked to death, but considering a Silverado is far more likely to see contractor/construction duty overall. Plus a Silverado can/could be equipped to handle more payload and towing (particularly in 1/2 ton config).
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    3) "Camaro Had a Lousy Launch" (actually had a strong launch)

    Sales yes. Quality "Lousy".

    Let's look at the launch of the 2010 Camaro from the NEW GM: (July 2009)

    In January, GM delayed Camaro production for one month, pushing back the start of production at its Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, assembly site from February 16 to March 16 as engineers grappled with quality-control and supplier issues.

    From there, the Camaro has endured a litany of confirmed and anecdotal quality problems perhaps most entertainingly characterized by an unintentionally humorous list posted at Camaro5.com to help potential new owners scour their Camaro for quality issues reported by other buyers.

    The lengthy — and sometimes hilarious — checklist includes such worrying entries as loose oil-pan bolts and oil-cooler leaks; "mismatched paint on parts of the vehicle;" hoods that won't unlatch, intermittent air-conditioning operation; loose emblems and interior trim pieces and misaligned and poorly fitting body panels.

    Inside Line says: The entire checklist of 65 items the forum suggests new owners inspect before taking Camaro delivery can be found on the Web site's forum. — Bill Visnic, Senior Editor, Edmunds' AutoObersver.com
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,528
    edited October 2013
    By your account, the new Focus and Fusion could be said to have had lousy launches.

    All, including the Camaro, had strong sales out of the box.

    Remember how you would routinely post one month at a time, when Mustang would outsell Camaro, and reiterate the Camaro's "lousy launch"? It wasn't long at all that the Camaro was outselling the Mustang, even with one fewer body style.

    The '13 Malibu had what insiders would call a 'lousy launch'--and I concur.

    'Lousy launch', in the industry, means poor sales of a major product that was expected to sell much better. Lee Iacocca called the '82 J-cars and the '83 A-cars from GM a "lousy launch", and I agree there too.

    Gee, per CR, a 2010 Camaro has the same overall reliability as the same-year Kia Optima. We know that has to be gospel. ;)

    Actually, kidding aside, how can one link V6's and V8's together in a reliability chart, is a mystery to me.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,775
    Actually, kidding aside, how can one link V6's and V8's together in a reliability chart, is a mystery to me.

    Well, you just average them together...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,528
    edited October 2013
    Huh?

    But I'm supposed to believe that there are differences, mechanically, in a Silverado and Avalanche which can have the same engines?

    So one Camaro engine might be much-worse-than-average, and the other better-than-average, but it's OK to not report that difference?

    Talk about different owners--between a V6 base Camaro and an SS (or higher-performance) model...
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,775
    Huh?

    Well, I was joking a bit.

    But I'm supposed to believe that there are differences, mechanically, in a Silverado and Avalanche which can have the same engines?

    I think the point is that a vehicle is much more than the engine. I'd bet over 50% of the problems in vehicles are NOT engine related. Lots of electrical glitches. Lots of body and trim issues. And then there's transmissions, too. Should we separate vehicles by transmission? How about by interior trim? Obviously there is some judgement involved - no process would be perfect.

    There are also body style differences. In a car, what about hatch versus 4-door versus coupe? What about sport suspensions? There could be lots of problems with the hatchback struts that don't exist in a sedan. Etc.

    Just pointing out that separating by engines (or not) assumes a big difference there that must be important - whereas NOT separating by all of those other factors I mentioned assumes they aren't important, which of course may not be the case, either.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,528
    Actually, CR used to differentiate by transmission.

    Engine and trans would have significantly more effect on reliability than interior trim and hatch struts. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Ford is the only one that didn't take a freebie from Obama

    Wrong, Bush signed the auto bail out:

    http://youtu.be/1N5kRVfmMoE
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Ford did not need a bail out by the U.S. Government.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    He was wrong about the President who signed the bill, not the automaker who accepted the bailout.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited October 2013
    4) "Sonic is built in Korea"

    Low blow, man. You know I thought we were talking about the Spark.

    Ironically the Sonic *is* also built in Korea, just not the ones sold in the USA.

    People make honest mistakes, like when you said CR had never put ranked a GM car at the top of its class while the Corvette indeed was.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,141
    Actually, CR used to differentiate by transmission.

    I think I remember that. IIRC, they didn't have a completely different entry for a car versus an automatic, versus one with a stick, but would rather list the manual, and the automatic transmission in with other things like the engine, a/c, body, paint, interior, electrical, and so on.

    I remember they used to break out 6-cyl versus V-8, but that could be a bit misleading, especially during those times where there were often several different V-8's offered. For instance, a 1978 Catalina came standard with a Buick 231 V-6, and that was the only V-6 offered. But with V-8's, there was the Pontiac 301, Buick 350 (Pontiac's 350 was gone after 1977 I believe), Pontiac 400, and if you bought in CA/high altitude areas you got the Olds 350 or 403.

    In fact, that might be one reason why big Pontiacs tended to be rated a bit low in those years, compared to an equivalent Olds or Buick. Pontiacs relied heavily on the 301, with the bigger engines being a bit less common. The LeSabre offered the 301 from something like '77-79, but I think California models got a Chevy 305. And the 350 and 403 were more popular engines in the LeSabre than they were the Catalina and Bonneville. I think the Delta 88 tried out the 301 in 1977, but for 1978 offered only the 260, 350, or 403, all Oldsmobile engines, and all pretty durable.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,528
    When did CR test a Corvette?

    Sorry to use your one example, but sheesh, there's been so much of that type of thing here over time.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,528
    You're right. Under, say, "Dullsmobile XYZ 4-cyl.", they would have an entry for "Manual Trans" and "Auto Trans", and the same under "V6" for that model if it were available.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited October 2013
    You seem to think CR hates everything domestic, I merely pointed out that 4 GM vehicles (3 trucks, 1 car) were sitting at the top of their classes in the current Buying Guide.

    Don't shoot the messenger.

    If a Corvette hadn't been tested in a while, yet CR let it remain at the top of the ratings, that's pretty generous towards GM, don't you agree?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Would be nice to have that sort of break down by trans type, given some vehicles come with manual, CVT, or slushbox.

    May not be practical, though. There may not a big enough sample for manuals, given the low take rate.

    If you see a black dot the best thing to do is ask on these boards. Good example: the 1991-1995 Mazda 626 4 banger auto was lousy, but the V6 auto was fine. The manual trans was fine for both engines.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,141
    Good example: the 1991-1995 Mazda 626 4 banger auto was lousy, but the V6 auto was fine.

    I knew someone who had a 1993 Ford Probe 4-cyl/auto, which I think used the same drivetrain? Anyway, his transmission was shot around 30,000 miles, and again around 80,000 I believe.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Those CD4E transmissions would last 60k miles on a 626 if you were lucky.

    Some people replaced them twice.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    edited October 2013
    I am now celebrating recalls of Honda and Toyota. They DEFINITELY have had positive diagnoses of "GM Disease". Of course, that's "Old" GM Disease. GM has lost it's Recall Crown! (The Bigger They Are....)

    "Toyota’s Series of Recalls of Late"

    "In Jul 2013, Toyota announced that it would recall 185,000 units of some subcompact car models globally due to a problem with their electric power steering system. The glitch was making the steering heavier. The recalled vehicles include Yaris (know as Vitz in Japan) and Verso-S (aka Lactis in Japan) subcompact models. The recalled Yaris vehicles were manufactured between Nov 2010 to Mar 2012 while Vero-S vehicles were made between Aug 2010 and Aug 2011.

    In Aug 2013, Toyota recalled around 342,000 Tacoma midsize pickup trucks to fix faulty front seat belts. The recall involved car models from 2004-2011.

    In early Sep 2013, one year after Toyota recalled 780K vehicles to fix a problem in the rear tie rod, the company recalled the vehicles again after reports that the problem remained, reported The New York Times. The company had recalled 18K 2010 Lexus HS 250h autos and 760K Toyota RAV4 SUV of model years 2006 to 2011 in Aug 2012, following several complaints.

    Again in Sep, the automaker recalled 369,000 vehicles worldwide, including about 235,000 in the U.S., roughly 74,000 in Japan and 37,500 in Europe. This included 200,000 Highlander Hybrid models manufactured from 2006 to 2010 and Lexus RX 400h vehicles developed during 2006 to 2008 to fix a hybrid-system problem. Toyota also recalled another 169,000 vehicles including Lexus IS 350, IS 350C and GS 350 made between 2006 and 2011. Toyota recalled these vehicles to repair an engine bolt defect."

    "Other than Toyota, many other players in the automobile market are witnessing a series of recalls. In Aug 2013, Dongfeng Honda Automobile Co., the Chinese arm of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. (HMC), announced that it is recalling all Siwei CR-V vehicles manufactured from Mar 2, 2010, to Aug 30, 2012 to fix a defective front shock absorber piston rod. Honda recalled almost 408,000 SUVs.

    Ford Motor Co. (F) and General Motors Company (GM) also announced multiple vehicle recalls to fix various issues."

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-shares-drop-vehicle-recall-154003739.html
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,775
    You seem to think CR hates everything domestic, I merely pointed out that 4 GM vehicles (3 trucks, 1 car) were sitting at the top of their classes in the current Buying Guide.

    To add here, most rational people know that CR doesn't have an agenda (other than perhaps efficiency over driving dynamics). Of course their process isn't perfect, but MOST of their findings are generally correct, which means MOST of the vehicles they rate highly are good, and MOST of the vehicles they say aren't that reliable are in fact that way.

    Those who complain are just using their brand biases to combat the facts on which models and makes are better versus others. And most of the people know that inside, whether they want to admit it publicly or not.

    Heck, I had a VW Jetta that went 143K miles with almost no problems, but I don't have a problem admitting that VW hasn't been that reliable, regardless of my own experiences.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    edited October 2013
    "Heck, I had a VW Jetta that went 143K miles with almost no problems, but I don't have a problem admitting that VW hasn't been that reliable, regardless of my own experiences."

    If only some would be as balanced as you....;)

    Oh, wait! You can't be balanced if you stick with one brand despite the worst drop in market share in U.S. history!
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    edited October 2013
    Could it be that GM pricing can ruin another launch?

    "Critical acclaim for the redesigned 2014 Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra suggests that GM nailed the first part of that strategy. But as the new trucks hit the heart of their launch cycle, the pricing part appears to be running up against cold market realities.

    Many Chevy and GMC dealers say sales of the 2014 pickups have been disappointing since the June launch, stymied by stiff price competition from heavily discounted Fords and Rams.

    Silverados are "selling very poorly" at Dimmitt Chevrolet in Clearwater, Fla., General Manager Sam Pilato says. The dealership, which typically sells 10 to 25 of the full-sized pickups a month, didn't notch its first Silverado sale this month until Oct. 16."

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20131021/RETAIL07/310219846/price-gap-riles-gm-d- - ealers

    Embarrassing!

    "It looked like we're finally going to get into the game," says Rox Covert, dealer principal at two Chevrolet dealerships and two Buick-GMC stores in the Austin, Texas, area. The stores, which have a 120-day supply, compared with the typical 90 days, sell more than 3,000 Silverados and Sierras annually.

    "Then they raise the prices," Covert says. "It's like it kicks you in the head."
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,036
    Hmmm - dealers complain that this year's model isn't selling well against the last year's competition that have thousands of incentives on them.

    The problem isn't the pricing - the problem is that they should have launched in September.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,528
    edited October 2013
    "Heck, I had a VW Jetta that went 143K miles with almost no problems, but I don't have a problem admitting that VW hasn't been that reliable, regardless of my own experiences."

    If only some would be as balanced as you....

    Oh, wait! You can't be balanced if you stick with one brand despite the worst drop in market share in U.S. history!"

    Do you mean that if you wanted another VW, you'd let a drop in market share keep you from one when you had good experiences? Rather shallow and "me too". I disdain "me too" thinking, personally.

    P.S. Read my posting about the 2010 Equinox from yesterday.

    P.P.S. I reiterate: Gee, per CR, a 2010 Camaro has the same overall reliability as the same-year Kia Optima. We know that has to be gospel.

    P.P.P.S. Another factual error of recent times: "Look at the huge list of TSB's for the car." Half were from before the car was introduced. LOL
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,775
    If only some would be as balanced as you....

    Well, that's balance to me. To others, balance is....something different!
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,775
    Do you mean that if you wanted another VW, you'd let a drop in market share keep you from one when you had good experiences? Rather shallow and "me too". I disdain "me too" thinking, personally.

    Not sure whether this was addressed to Circle or myself... I think you're conflating two different posts...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,528
    edited October 2013
    Aimed at circle, who is always enlightened. I'm aware he added to your post.

    Only here, is a 803K recall post considered "happy for the recall", but only I make a comment about another poster's response of an earlier recall for far-fewer vehicles. Only here are there crickets chirping about the NACOTY selections, mostly from GM. Boy, there's some balance for ya.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    Do you mean that if you wanted another VW, you'd let a drop in market share keep you from one when you had good experiences? Rather shallow and "me too". I disdain "me too" thinking, personally.

    I just think balance in product usage comes from exploring different brands...not just from one brand that failed miserably in the marketplace....but that's just me!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,528
    edited October 2013
    You let the marketplace decide for you. I don't worry about what most writers who aren't as old as I've been driving, tell me what I should buy. I buy what's best for me and image is something I could care less about.

    Over the years, when I've had rentals of much-ballyhooed-cars, I almost always come away with 'what's the big deal about that?'.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,399
    "You let the marketplace decide for you."

    Au contraire, mon ami! I decide the best product for my needs. All 3 of my current fleet are better than the domestics that fit the formula.

    The marketplace is a reflection on good manufactures and not so good manufacturers. The bad ones are the ones that loose market share. When I needed my new vehicles, the domestics were producing not so good products.

    The domestics are improving but so is the competition.
This discussion has been closed.