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The Current State of the US Auto Market

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  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    A surprise to me was the PT convertible, that had tons of leg room.

    Seeing as how the PT convertible really didn't have a traditional trunk structure, the designers were able to use that space for leg room.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    We are in an upswing in the U.S. car market. Yes, things are good. This cannot be sustained however. GM/Ford better take advantage and use this surge and momentum to their advantage. Keep up the product and innovation. I am a Ford fan, have owned mostly Ford products for over 35 years. However, I know Ford is known for coming out with great vehicles then letting them die on the vine. If a Ford representative reads these forums, they must pay attention to the consumer and keep developing and evolving their products. Other wise Ford could end up like Mercury, AMC, Pontiac or soon to be Suzuki..
  • rockshocka1rockshocka1 Member Posts: 310
    edited February 2013
    Just reading for fun, not trying to pick a fight, but what is def of useable back seat? I've got an S5 & the back is useable to set a bag. I'm 6'1" & wife is 5'9". Not too much above avg, & if we put our hands behind our seats, they touch both the back of the front seats & the front of the back. Very tight. Had one rear passenger, once. Not pretty. Love the car, back seat pointless imo.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Although automakers continue to focus on shifting their production facilities to new regions driven by cost and demand factors, developing the supplier networks remains one of the greatest challenges faced by them. Existing suppliers to automakers often lack the financial strength to expand capacity in new markets. On the other hand, auto parts suppliers are sensitive to technology transfers to local third parties, which can give rise to low-cost competitors.

    Since 1999, more than 20 of the largest global auto parts suppliers have filed for bankruptcy. The financial condition of the majority of auto market suppliers continues to deteriorate, resulting from a historically weak demand and high dependence on automakers.

    Thus, despite the government’s sizable investment in the industry, it is likely that there will be auto parts suppliers who are unable to restart operations due to a lack of sufficient working capital even as automakers start production. According to the Original Equipment Suppliers Association, 12% of the auto industry suppliers do not have sufficient working capital to support a 10%–25% expansion in production.

    High dependence on automakers makes the auto market suppliers vulnerable to several maladies, primarily pricing pressure and production cuts. Pricing pressure from automakers constricts parts suppliers’ margins. On the other hand, production cuts by automakers driven by frequent market adjustments negatively affect their operations.

    Some of the auto industry suppliers who have a high reliance on a few automakers such as General Motors, Ford, Chrysler and Volkswagen include American Axle and Manufacturing (AXL), Meritor Inc. (MTOR - Analyst Report), Goodyear Tire and Rubber Co. (GT - Analyst Report), Magna International (MGA - Analyst Report), Superior Industries (SUP - Analyst Report), Tenneco Inc. (TEN - Analyst Report) and TRW Automotive (TRW).
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Safety Recalls

    Since November 2009, Toyota recalled about 20 million vehicles globally, surpassing all other automakers. Few months back, the automaker had announced a major worldwide recall of 7.43 million vehicles that included more than a dozen models manufactured between 2005 and 2010. The recall was related to faulty power window switches in the vehicles that can cause fire because they did not have grease applied properly during production.

    In 2012, the Transportation Department of U.S. slapped a fine of $17.35 million on Toyota due to late response regarding a defect in its vehicles to safety regulators as well as late recall of those vehicles. According to the department, it was the maximum allowable fine under the law for not initiating a recall in a timely manner. The latest fine adds to $48.4 million imposed by the U.S. government on the company in 2010 due to late recall of millions of defective vehicles.

    Toyota would also need to pay $1.1 billion to settle a class-action lawsuit related to complaints of unintended acceleration in its vehicles. According to a plaintiff lawyer, the settlement is one of the largest in a lawsuit in the history of automotive industry. The lawsuit blamed Toyota’s defective electronic throttle-control system rather than floor mats and sticky accelerator pedals for unintended acceleration, resulting in a crash. The settlement would pacify 16 million owners of Toyota, Lexus and Scion of model years 1998 to 2010.

    In the spate of recalls following Toyota’s, other automakers’ recalls also came into the limelight. They include Chrysler, Ford, GM, Honda and Nissan. Among them, GM recalled most frequently.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    Existing suppliers to automakers often lack the financial strength to expand capacity in new markets.

    They just need to learn the "Japanese" way. :shades:

    "For decades, Japan's auto industry keiretsu—networks of parts suppliers closely allied with companies including Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. —appeared as a black box to outsiders.

    But there was a lot going on behind the scenes and some of it wasn't legal. In fact, some areas of the Japanese auto-parts business were rife with bid rigging and collusion, according to confessions by companies and executives to antitrust officials around the globe that have produced multimillion-dollar fines and a dozen prison sentences."

    Japan Probe Pops Car-Part Keiretsu (WSJ)

    Government intervention is one thing but Gnosen really upended the cartels when he opened up the supplier network for Nissan to worldwide open-source bidding.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    what is def of useable back seat?

    Plopped my 2 kids in there, then ask, do you fit?

    That's my definition. :D
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    Thanks for posting that Toyota is the most-recent 'King of Recalls'.

    Where's your comment on the half-million BMW's recalled the other day?

    Half-million.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    Just looking at the totals is unfair because it penalizes big makes like GM.

    Let's think about it - if everyone tied in terms of % of cars recalled, GM would be King by default. That's not really fair, then.

    We should look at # of recalls as a % of cars sold.

    BMW's was a big one:

    BMW has told safety regulators it will recall about 570,000 vehicles

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130218/OEM11/130219866#ixzz2LRw0EX49
    Follow us: @Automotive_News on Twitter | AutoNews on Facebook

    BMW only sold 281k cars last year, so that recall is about twice as many cars as they sell per year.

    For GM to beat that, they would have to recall more than FIVE MILLION cars this year.

    Toyota over FOUR MILLION this year.

    So looks like BMW is the new King of Recalls.

    Having said that - recall count is a very poor way to measure quality.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    that - recall count is a very poor way to measure quality.

    Well, not exactly, but I think if we were all honest with ourselves here, we'd know that GM recalls for far fewer numbers have been posted on Edmunds with glee and ridicule.

    Again, for me, it's all about balance.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They're often reported more than once, too, making the totals seem artificially high.

    I don't like when studies publish "most" lists but don't account for sales volume.

    Example: Camcord are the cars most often stolen.

    Well DUH!

    What I want to know are what are the odds of a specific car getting stolen, and to make it applicable maybe even how insurance rates compare for that model.

    If Toyota sells 100,000 Camrys and 1000 of them are stolen (1%), then they sell 10 FJ Cruisers and 3 of them are stolen (30%), then it's the FJ owner that should be worried, not the Camry owner.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/19/mercedes-says-its-tops-in-luxury-sales-for-20- 12-not-bmw/
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    IMO, BMW seems to look at recall issues a bit like the proverbial ostrich... The company just buries its head in the sand and hopes the issue will go away.

    What's difficult for me to understand is the number of years covered in the last 2 major recalls. On the 5-series, IIRC, it was over 10 years, and its well over 5 years on the latest recall. It just seems odd that no one would realize a problem is indeed a problem for such an extended period.

    I have one car covered by the latest recall, but if I've had a problem, its been so minor I haven't even noticed it.

    IMO, recalls are just the new reality for all carmakers in today's world. AFAIC, unless a recall is for something major, like an exploding gas tank or sudden, warning-less total steering/brake failure, I don't see it as a major issue, other than a black eye for the manufacturer.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2013
    I agree, in fact what I think we've seen over the past couple of years is a "catch up" period for issues that have existed for a while.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    A BMW spokesman said the company stands by its sales figures.

    Gee... What else would a spokesman say?

    "You caught us... We lied!"
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    What I want to know are what are the odds of a specific car getting stolen, and to make it applicable maybe even how insurance rates compare for that model.

    I agree, and there's one more piece of information I'd like to know... The recovery rate.

    If Camcords are the most stolen, but mostly taken for short joyrides and recovered, how does that compare to high-dollar rides stolen and possibly never seen again?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Or all the SUVs that are stolen and taken across the border in Mexico. Good luck recovering those.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Taking a leaf from Apple, BMW dealers will hire product explainers

    Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130213/ANE/302159998#ixzz2LSbU3400
    Follow us: @Automotive_News on Twitter | AutoNews on Facebook

    Cars have become so complicated. It's sad that this is needed, but I actually think it's a good idea.

    If I visit a BMW dealer that's the first person I would talk to. Maybe the only one.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited February 2013
    I saw that a day or so ago...

    This is a comment I thought was rather obvious about just about anyone who has a job doing anything...


    The salesman has a complicated job," said Ian Robertson, BMW board member for sales and marketing. "He has to understand product, he has to be trained and he has to understand financial services.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The salesman has a complicated job," said Ian Robertson, BMW board member for sales and marketing. "He has to understand product, he has to be trained and he has to understand financial services.

    I'm sure we've all been in dealerships where we act a bit dumb and the sales person obviously knows much less about the car than we do.

    I'm amazed that auto dealers let people so ill-informed sell their cars.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And all the models at auto shows. Go off script and they're completely lost.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    MB should hire "geniuses" - I'd apply. A couple people I dealt with told me I should be in there selling (as I have product knowledge), but I am not a seller, I am more like "if you don't want to buy it, fine, see ya".

    The salesperson I worked with and the prepper or whatever it can be called (handled test drive, paperwork - he told me he wasn't on commission) had both been in the job 20+ years, and were well enough informed. The main salesman even drives a nearly identical car to my new ride.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I could probably do it for Subaru, and I'm about as far from a salesman as you could get.

    In fact I think they'd need to train us not to turn people away.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    I'm not being vain, but I don't believe I've ever bought a new Chevy where the salesman knew as much as I did about the product. Some, should have been ashamed, they were so ill-informed.

    Some of this might be warm and fuzzy feelings on my part, but the most knowledgeable salesman I ever dealt with, was the older fellow who sold my Dad his new Chevys and had been the dealer's Service Manager before selling cars. He sold me my first new car, in January '81. In our small town, if you were a jerk salesman, it got around quick. Everybody liked this guy. I saw him a couple years ago, shortly before he died, and he didn't remember me but remembered my Dad and said I looked like him. He apologized for having some dementia.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You'd be totally qualified to be a Chevy Genius, if they had 'em.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    MB should hire "geniuses" - I'd apply. A couple people I dealt with told me I should be in there selling (as I have product knowledge), but I am not a seller, I am more like "if you don't want to buy it, fine, see ya".

    What do you think of the C-class. I really like the size and looks of the current style have been thinking about buying a 3-ish year old one. I would like stick and I guess that's not available, sadly.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You'd be totally qualified to be a Chevy Genius, if they had 'em.

    The posters on this board would probably be more qualified than 80% of the salesmen out there. :surprise:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They should come recruit people from here.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    I'm not being vain, but I don't believe I've ever bought a new Chevy where the salesman knew as much as I did about the product. Some, should have been ashamed, they were so ill-informed.

    That's basically been my experience too. Boats, cars, SUVs, PWC (jetskis), and RVs, I've bought and shopped them all and rarely run into a sales person that has a clue, usually they are full of crap. I've run into a few that knew the product, but that's been rare.

    Trucks can be a real problem. Particularly if have specific cargo or towing needs. I almost got burned on an Expedition when I was shopping for SUVs. I didn't realize there was an HD towing package above the standard towing package and the salesperson told me they were all rated to tow 9k lbs. I almost bought a model that only had the standard tow package and a 6k tow rating. Fortunately, I did a bit of research on my own.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    They should come recruit people from here.

    I've always enjoyed sales, but the problem with selling cars and other "retail" type products are the hours. I have a friend that has been a successful car salesman for over 20 years, his hours just suck. Evenings, 10-12+ hour days and Saturdays, no thanks. The weekends are a big issue for me.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I don't know if you are all familiar with the latest internet fad - the Harlem Shake. Well I found a link where it has infected edmunds.com!!

    Edmunds is shaking
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    They are fine cars. Not nearly as many issues as some older ones. No stick for a few years, though. Buying new can be pricey, but there will be some blowout prices and leases when the new model is announced. Eventually there will be a US-built version, too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    I wouldn't be good at applying the pressure. And yes, turning people away - or advising people not to buy too much car. 18 year old devilspawn of an investor visa nitwit with a week old license wants a SLS? Not so fast.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I would recommend whatever gave me the highest bonus! :D

    SLS? No, you need the roadster, so people can SEE you, kid!
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I'm not being vain, but I don't believe I've ever bought a new Chevy where the salesman knew as much as I did about the product. Some, should have been ashamed, they were so ill-informed.

    I absolutely agree.

    While cars have grown to be far more complicated than they were in, say 1980, what product hasn't? So, more complicated is no excuse, IMO...

    From my experience, the car salesperson that really invests his time wisely by learning the product he's selling can do well.

    I won't limit it to cars sales, though... I see the same thing at places like Best Buy, cellphone stores, etc.

    I find I routinely know far more about a product I'm interested in buying than the person selling it to me. Is it any wonder so many avoid the salesperson experience, and but off he Internet?

    Too few salespeople see learning their product as a wise investment.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2013
    I could sell minivans. Assuming the buyer wanted to pay cash. If they wanted to lease or pair their phone, I'd run for the exits. :-)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'd be upselling all the tech options and helping them pair phones they didn't know had bluetooth.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,084
    I agree that knowing trucks is harder than knowing cars...and always has been.

    Back when new Chevys were a hobby for me, instead of like now, I knew every option and model, but even then, trucks were confusing because of the plethora of axle ratios, capacities, sizes, ad nauseum. A good truck salesman really has to know what's right for his customer...or more likely, the customer has to know.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    A good truck salesman really has to know what's right for his customer...or more likely, the customer has to know.

    The guy I know who sells Chevy specializes in trucks. He definitely knows Chevy trucks inside and out and all of the different configurations along with capacities etc. It may depend on the dealer and location too. I'm sure here in central Illinois, truck sales are large enough to justify a specialized truck sales staff.

    But yeah, in general trucks are far more complicated to sell than cars these days. Heck, I know what I'd want and I sometimes get confused. Different cabs and beds, along with other options have a big affect on cargo and towing capacity.

    The customer needs to know what they want or need and the sales man needs to understand what questions to ask.

    You can't just ask "how much does the trailer you tow weigh?". It's more complicated than that. Towing a 26' 8k lb boat is a lot different than towing a 8k lb 30' box or travel trailer. Many people don't understand that. Sure my Expedition is rated to tow 9k lbs. But it really isn't if I have 8 people in it and a weeks worth of gear on the roof rack. If I attempted to pull a 9k lb trailer with 15% tongue weight, it wouldl be severely overloaded and unsafe due to exceeding the GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) and possible the GCWR (gross combined vehicle weight rating), not to mention being over the rear axle weight rating.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Some video is out now:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/22/hyundai-elantras-alleged-unintended-accelerat- ion-sends-teen-po/

    I don't see how the throttle gets stuck, the hydraulic brakes fail, and the transmission can't shift to neutral all at the same time.

    I bet he was speeding and didn't want to get caught, so he just kept his foot in it.

    The family says they are not yet ready to talk - why? Trying to get the story straight first?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Young new-car buyers--those between 16 and 35 years old--continued to be attracted to import brands in 2012, and higher percentages of them selected compact, sporty car models, according to data collected by J.D. Power and Associates' Power Information Network(R) (PIN). :blush:

    Big 3 Absent

    Regards,
    OW
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I find it amusing that after our kids finish college and start working they often start to better appreciate their parent's life experiences and decisions. I will say however, that I don't think everyone is against Detroit product per se, it's just that they need to prove they have a better offer for our purchase, regardless of which generation is doing the buying. Unfortunately, I'm not sure Detroit is really acomplishing that right now.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited February 2013
    Unfortunately, I'm not sure Detroit is really acomplishing that right now.

    Unfortunately for them...fortunately for the other brands.

    Toyota and its luxury Lexus brand topped the charts again in J.D. Power’s vehicle dependability study while Ram climbed into the top 10.

    The Asian automaker’s Lexus brand ranked first and Toyota was tied with Lincoln for third in the study which measures problems owners report in their 2010 model-year cars after three years of ownership.

    Porsche was ranked second and Mercedes-Benz was fifth.

    While the Detroit Three continued to narrow the gap on quality scores in the study, seven Toyota and Lexus models had the best scores in their segment awards — more than any other manufacturer in 2013.

    “More so than other automaker, when they have choices to make, they almost always make the choice to maximize the dependability of their vehicle,” said David Sargent, vice president of global automotive at J.D. Power and Associates. “It’s something they have been doing for 30 years.”
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited February 2013
    image

    Maybe it's just me, but that is ugly.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Wow - that anime is worse than some of the recent Asian stuff! It just looks angry and ugly.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I think it looks better than the Ford fish mouth on the Fusion.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Nah, just needs a little make-up!

    image

    All better! ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I was shocked, and Jeep is usually conservative with styling.

    All it needs are round headlights (one set, not two), and maybe a tamer lower grille.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    I think the main thing is the heavy use of chrome on the front, make that black or body colour and it would be better, I will reserve judgment on the rest until I see it in real life ( could be okay or could be ugly, will have to wait and see) it certainly is different in any case.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The contrast certainly doesn't help.

    I predict an emergency refresh in the 2nd year, which is sadly common nowadays.
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