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Acura CL

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Comments

  • welst10welst10 Member Posts: 49
    At 10th day of ownership, mileage 350, I found that the Bose audio in my '03 CL sounds significantly better than it did in the first few days. Highs are clearer, and lows are stronger, deeper and tihger. My friend told me that's because speakers have a burn-in period, like cars. Make sense to me since sound reproduction is essentially a mechanical process, thru rapid physical movement of woofers.
    Anyway, my initial thoughts about modifying the sound system are now on hold. Other aspects of the car? nothing abnormal so far.
  • cls6spdcls6spd Member Posts: 14
    Welst - I installed a self-powered Bazooka bass tube in the CL this past weekend. Big job but it sure sounds great! The bass boost on the AudioLink driver allows me to turn the bass control on the head unit all the way down. This frees up all the Bose amp power to drive the mid and high frequencies. The sound is very clean and open. There is no perceptible intrusion of the Bose active-equalization circuit since the power-robbing low frequencies are being produced by the subwoofer. If you crave hard-hitting tight bass, a Bazooka tube will suit your needs just fine.
  • welst10welst10 Member Posts: 49
    Thanks for your info, cls6spd. And congrats. Can I ask you a few questions. Where did you get the bass tube? How much is it? Is it difficult to install by yourself? Thx.
  • welst10welst10 Member Posts: 49
    where did you place the sub tube, in the trunk? I am worried that much bass won't go into the cockpit.
  • cls6spdcls6spd Member Posts: 14
    I purchased the RS10A Amplified Bazooka tube ($399) and metal mounting brackets ($29) from Crutchfield (1-800-955-3000 or crutchfield.com). I also purchased the Bazooka remote control bass module ($29) that allows gain (volume) and crossover frequency to be adjusted from the cockpit and an amplifier installation kit (includes 10-gauge fused power line, 10-gauge ground line, RCA phono line, and miscellaneous crimp on lugs, splices, and wire ties). In addition, an interface adapter (power driver) is required to step up the low-voltage Bose signal to standard RCA phono level. I used an Audiolink PD-2.

    Total install time was 18 hours (I work slow and methodical) I did half on Saturday, half on Sunday. The level of difficulty is relative. I've done installations that have taken 60 hours. I will say that it was time consuming running all the lines to the trunk. (The handiest tool to go through grommets and under carpeting is a wire clothes hanger!)

    I mounted the metal brackets to the metal floor between the wheel wells, just behind the rear seat. This can be tricky because the fuel tank is directly below this area. I used a drill stop on the drill bit and checked depth clearence to select fastener length (sheet metal screws). I notched out the forward edge trunk carpet/pressboard in two places to allow reinstallation. It looks great. The power driver mounted nicely behind the center console trim panel on the right side.

    Subwoofer placement is not critical. There does not have to be a "line-of-sight" to it as is true for tweeters and midrange speakers. Low frequencies (20Hz to 100Hz) are nondirectional. The bass blends in nicely without being able to pin point the radiating source. The only time I can detect the bass coming from behind me is when the crossover contol is tuned above 100Hz. This is too boomy for my taste, so I usually don't leave it set this high.

    P.S. I drove out to AudioLink in Yorba Linda (CA) to pick up the PD-2 ($99) and Acura specific adapter harness ($35). They also have a website with a phone number if you wanted to reach them directly.
  • welst10welst10 Member Posts: 49
    Did you have to temporarily the head unit from the dash? What kind of outputs (low/RCA level or high/speaker level) does the head unit have? I am assuming your CL-S has the same head unit as my CL. Thanks a lot.
  • cls6spdcls6spd Member Posts: 14
    Good Morning (Afternoon?) Welst - Yes. The head unit had to be removed, along with half of the interior. (You should have seen the look on my poor wife's face when she saw the insides of our new car spread out all over the garage.)

    The rear of the head unit has two receptacles. Only one of the two is used in my car. I don't have the nav/OnStar system. There are about 20 wires in this harness. There are no connections that resemble a conventional RCA phono line. The signal in these lines are similar to the output of a standard head unit (audio plus tone adjustments) except they are very low voltage, hence the need for a power driver (interface unit). The AudioLink adapter harness connects between the head unit and the car wiring. It is a simple plug-in installation. The harness provides feeds for the power driver (12V, signal ground, switch-on power signal, audio LF RF LR RR). Case ground, RCA phono outs, and switch-on signal output are the only remaining connections tobe made at the power driver.

    In one of your earlier posts, you referred to the Bose system as not being Hi-Fi. You are absolutely correct. Bose designed the system this way intentionally. As the volume is turned up, the amp senses when it is starting to distort (clip) and automatically rolls off the bass to preserve power to play mid and high frequencies loudly. The effect is impressive to most listeners because there is a total lack of distortion. However, more discriminate listeners (or Bassheads, like myself) find it disappointing. As the volume is turned up, instead of hearing and feeling more bass, just the oppisite happens, overall bass response diminishes. The trick of installing a subwoofer in a Bose equipped vehicle is to access the signal before the active equalization (EQ) process which occurs in the amplifier. Unfortunately, the most accessible signal source, the rear speaker leads, are post EQ. That is the reason the head unit has to be removed. There are reasons not to pick the audio signals up at the amp (left side of trunk) but I won't get into that here.

    P.S. Make sure you have the security code number for your head unit before you remove it!
  • welst10welst10 Member Posts: 49
    for the info! For now, I am not gonna mess with it myself since it is brand new. I might go to talk to some circuit city guy to see whether they're familiar with the acura CL installation.
  • welst10welst10 Member Posts: 49
    My 03 CL manual recommends 5W-20 engine oil. But today while I was at K-mart, I couldn't find 5W-20!? I think most people are using 5W-30 or 10W-30. Has anyone been using 5W-20?
  • 6onthefloor6onthefloor Member Posts: 1
    I'll be pickin' up me new silver 6 speed S tomorrow after work. Cant wait to get in and drive drive drive!

    Some of you peeps have mentioned the audio system, and I'm also a little concerned. During my test drives, that's one thing I noticed-- my previous car (actually right now it's still my current car, but it already seems previous:D) has some nice aftermarket equipment including two amps and a sub, so the smaller woofless Bose system in the CL will take some getting used to.

    welst10, I coulda sworn I saw somewhere that the CLs like 5W-30, but I just scanned the Acura web site & couldn't find that reference so maybe I was seeing things. Pre-ownership euphoria-induced hallucination maybe. I'll try to remember to ask the service guys at the dealership what they put in when I'm there tomorrow.

    All right, I gotta go plan a trip somewhere. Later!
  • bodydoublebodydouble Member Posts: 801
    I wonder what would Honda do for people who have purchased the Honda extended warranty. Does the letter address that scenario?
  • welst10welst10 Member Posts: 49
    From what I've gathered so far, I plan to use 10W-30 for the summer time and 5W-30 for the rest of year. Probably Castral GTX. There are just few if any 5W-20 out there. Honda and Ford started to specify that type of oil since 2001 model year. But seems like most oil company (and consumers, for that matter) have yet to accept it.
  • bodydoublebodydouble Member Posts: 801
    on the warranty extension on the tranny. Anyone else got theirs?
  • hilarynhilaryn Member Posts: 2
    Hey everyone.. I was hoping someone could help me out. I just purchased a 97 cl, but my keyless entry remote isn't working. I already replaced the battery, and what happens now is the little red light is constantly on. It's my understanding that it's only supposed to light up when you press a button, but it is always on, so i just keep the batter separate until i can figure this out. I think it may need to be re-programmed into the car, because i also had to re enter my radio code. Does anyone know how to reprogram the 97 cl keyless entry? it should be in the owners manual (which i don't have because i bought it used..) Thank you for all your help..
  • vmumford1vmumford1 Member Posts: 2
    A young man was a passenger in a Honda Acura 98, CL 3.0, when the ignition/engine failed midstream, causing a collision. He has serious brain injuries. Is there anyone out there that has any information re: engine and/or ignition difficulty and/or failure in this make and model. If so, please advise in this forum or contact Staskus@usa.net. Thanks.
  • hilarynhilaryn Member Posts: 2
    If you go to acura.com, and look up the 98 cl 3.0 there is information regarding a recall that is being offered for all of those model vehicles because of the ignition cut off. They said sometimes the car stalls, or shuts off. They said no accidents have yet been attributed to it.
  • mapman1138mapman1138 Member Posts: 68
    It's been slow here lately. Where are the thousands of CL owners?

    I've passed the 10,000 mile point with my 2003 CL-S (MT), and for the most part, the car is performing flawlessly. A bit heavy & numb, perhaps, but it generally handles well - making my daily commute into as pleasant an experience as possible. On the rare occasions that I have to travel long distances, the car truly shines. It is a wonderful interstate cruiser.

    All is not well in CL-ville, however. Straight line performance is generally lacking, and I'm not sure why. The car is not the fireball that it should be most of the time, and it does not eagerly race to the redline like every other Honda automobile that I have owned.

    The only reason that I know that things aren't right is that *sometimes* it does run right. There are occasions that - when I put my foot in -the motor *does* race to the redline (and maybe a bit beyond). Lately, due to increasing frustration I've been trying to figure out what causes this. I always fill up with 93 octane at my local gas station (a major brand service station, always the same place). Originally, I thought that the problem might be outside temperature related, but since I get the same performance problems year-round, I've ruled that out.

    I'm beginning to suspect that the 93 octane at the local station isn't really 93 octane, as I notice that the best performance occurs only after those rare occasions that I fill up some place other than the regular place. During the next few weeks I'll be trying to prove this correlation via direct experimentation, but in the meantime, does anyone know of any way for a civilian like me to test octane?
  • grogsuzgrogsuz Member Posts: 14
    Will be saying goodbye to my faithful cl/s tomorrow and have mixed emotions about doing so.
    With outstanding reliability and performance,what more could one ask for? When I first saw the early prototypes at the NAIAS in Detroit I decided this was the most completely equipped car for the money and the bonus of 260 hp was icing on the proverbial cake.
    I will miss most the roar of the rush of air at full throttle.So sweet!Also the mileage has been fantastic,almost econocar-like.
    However I will be staying in the family as I will be picking up a new Redrock MDX/nav on Thursday.BTW my dealer thinks the demise of the CL is iminent.Certainly hope not the case.
    Keep the board alive as I will continue to visit.
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    grogsuz-

    Good luck! I LOVE my 2001 CL-S. It is 21 months old, 20,700 miles and not ONE problem. I love the slight roar of the exhaust when you get on it. Lately, my gas mileage isn't in the 20's anymore because I find myself making use of those 260 horses more and more! Two friends of mine at work have the MDX. They love them.

    Don't fret if they get rid of the CL-S. Take a look at the Motor Trend Car of the Year in the current issue! My eye is on that RED G-35 coupe when this lease is up or a Cadillac CTS with that new V-8 engine.

    I rarely post here because I have nothing to talk about or complain about. VERY different than my PREVIOUS 1999 Motor Trend Car of the Year- Chrysler 300M!! I had PLENTY to say about that car!!! I STILL do, much to the dismay of the 300M group here! I bad mouth Chrysler, their "award winning 5-STAR" dealers and their factory reps EVERY chance I get! I will NEVER buy another product that is connected with that company no matter what it is or what it looks like! They are #1 on my S___ list!

    fastdriver
  • cls6spdcls6spd Member Posts: 14
    Fastdriver - I too think the G35 coupe is a great looking car. In fact I had intended to buy one since early this year to replace my '90 Legend. I've owned a couple of Nissan Maximas ('83, '86), both manual transmission, which gave me great service for close to 200,000 miles each. When I saw the G35 sedan, I wasn't impressed with the interior. The placement of controls seemed odd to me (highly reflective amber LED-lit instrument lighting, seat controls on inboard side of seat, emergency hazard light control at bottom-right of center console, mirror adjuster below the steering wheel, etc.). IMO, the interior of the CL-S is absolutely beautiful. I like where all the controls are placed and how they are presented. I decided to do a little more research into the whole CL-S vs G35 issue before my purchase. For anyone considering the G35, I strongly recommend they read the Edmunds Town Hall entitled "G35 - Problems and Solutions". I counted 50 different problems from these posts. Some were encountered on the day of delivery. I would consider the majority of the problems unacceptable in a car costing half of the price. The CL-S by contrast had problems with the automatic transmission and a noisy seal on the sunroof.

    As far as Motor Trend Car of the Year, I think this is an award given for the best execution of a totally new design. I agree with the choice of the G35. However, ss you,ve indicated by past experience, this award is not an indication of quality or reliability.

    As far as the CL model going away, I suspect that this will happen when Honda starts installing the 6-speed transmission in the new 240-HP Accord Coupe (in a couple of months). That is OK by me. I'd prefer that CLs do not become as common a sight as Accords.

    Happy Holidays To All!
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    cls6spd-


    LOL..... You are 100% right about Motor Trend Car of the Year!! A long time ago, I read in http://www.autoextremist.com that this award is a JOKE! It's just like the Academy Awards, Emmy's etc. Phony and fixed.


    I really have not seen a G35 in person or read any reports about them. I did bookmark a G35 topic here, but I have not started to read any of the messages there yet. I still have a way to go on my CL-S lease, so I can't get too excited, but that red beauty in the current issue of MT would look great in my driveway! ;-))))


    I have seen a Honda Accord coupe. I like the way it looks. I just love a great looking car, in the right color, that is RELIABLE and never sees a dealer for repairs every month. At least for the first few years when they are treated like a Rolls Royce. I don't care what name is attached to it.


    fastdriver

  • cls6spdcls6spd Member Posts: 14
    Fastdriver -
    Thanks for the cool link. I've got it bookmarked.

    My wife's cousin is always raving about the great treatment she gets when she takes her J30 (one UGLY automobile) to the Infiniti dealer for repairs (free coffee, loaner car, etc.) We don't have the heart to tell her how much she would be missing if she owned a Honda (my wife drives a '93 Del Sol) or an Acura.

    You MUST read the "G35 -Problems and Solutions" postings. The latest is a complaint that he engine runs and sounds like a two-cycle engine.

    cls6spd
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    cls6spd-

    Will read about the G35 soon. Can't believe that an Infiniti can be a piece of crap. I had a J-30 in 94. It was a great car, but a little tight fitting inside. Has a great BOSE stereo- best radio I ever had. Unfortunately, BOSE designs the radios to the car and the manufacturer's specs. The BOSE in my CL-S is NOTHING like the J-30's was. When my lease was up, I was going to get another J-30, but I didn't like the attitude of the dealer. They were like what many people say Acura dealers are like- JERKS!

    I was never back to the dealer for ANY repairs. EXACTLY, the way it should be for the first several years.

    Today, I did receive my extended warranty for the transmission. Guess my car falls into that category. So far, 20,700+ miles- NO problems yet. By the time my lease is up, the car will still be under the regular warranty- 4 years, 50,000 miles. Time will tell if my tranny will be one to act up.

    fastdriver
  • bodydoublebodydouble Member Posts: 801
    I too find my CL-S varies in its performance. On some days it just doesn't seem quite as eager. I wasn't sure if it was just my imagination. Then also I've always though cars are a bit like women. Some days they just don't seem quite as.....:)
  • mapman1138mapman1138 Member Posts: 68
    During these first 10,500 miles, my CL-S has spent more time in "slug mode" than it has in "full speed ahead mode". I'm almost on empty today, so I'll pick a new filling station and see how things turn out!

    The car really hauls [non-permissible content removed] when it works, so I'm really hoping that it is a gasoline issue.
  • bodydoublebodydouble Member Posts: 801
    Also, do you not find the engine tone somewhat "raspier" than what a supposedly sophisticated hi-tech V6 should be. Maybe that's just a necessary by-product of getting the extra 35 ponies from the regular CL/TL engine. I wonder if the regular engine is smoother than the Type-S motor?
  • mapman1138mapman1138 Member Posts: 68
    I notice that the engine, while still smooth, isn't *as* smooth as when it's working right. When it is running correctly (putting out what seems to be its rated output), the thing is just plain silky. Another difference between "good" & "bad": When bad, it won't reach redline. When good, it just about gets there before I can say "upshift".
  • bodydoublebodydouble Member Posts: 801
    It just doesn't sound as mechanically harmonious as, say, the Nissan VQ engine. On some days, it also seems louder. Might be just my imagination.
  • nagiubnagiub Member Posts: 1
    I bought My new 2003CL 2 month ago. it only has 1500 miles on it.

    It is a very nice, I like it a lot. untill i got a recall letter for replacing the front Camshaft.

    They discovered that some 2003 Cl's needs to replace the front Camshaft, they said that at 4000 RPM and above it doesn't produce the HP it is supposed to.

    Well I replaced the front Camshaft. And every thing is fine now.

    I regret not buying the type S. But i had a great deal on the 2.3CL i payed little less than the invoice.

    Did any one receive a letter to replace the front Camshaft??

    Any idea how to enhance my HP.

    Thank you and it is pleasure to join the group.
  • kbinsbkbinsb Member Posts: 3
    Well, I've been a bit of a bore around my family always driving like a teenager, having fun in a fast stable car until today! The tranny died so fast I barely limped three blocks to home, had to hand push it into a space in front of the house.
    The dealer said that they are seeing lots of them Mine made it to 49,500, but I was hearing occasional noises when shifting. Never did it when at the dealer. The cl got better mileage than my wife's Golf 1.8 turbo. I have not had a single problem until this and it is fully covered by warranty. I am a bit shocked because I never expected a Honda product to be defective. I feel like asking if they can put in a six speed instead :>) Does anyone know if the six speed is any good?
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Member Posts: 776
    The one I test drove had one of the best shifters I've ever used. Shifter and clutch felt almost identical to the S2000.
  • loseitjeeploseitjeep Member Posts: 2
    Hello all!

    I did not realise that there was a townhall discussion on the CL. I used to be active when I had my 01 Wrangler. I have had my CL-S for exactly one year now. It has been great and has me served very well. Look forward to talking about this car with you all.

    I read some posts about people looking for a body kit for this car. I am active on a board cal acura-cl.com. It is a wealth of information for the ownners of this car. Anyways, they are in the process of getting the Sema Acura-cl body kit to become a reality. Check it out if your interested.
  • joeshedjoeshed Member Posts: 2
    I have a CL Type S with the 6 speed, now with almost 3,000 miles on it. The car is nearly perfect in every way except one: it has a tendency to drift to the left. All alignment settings are within spec, although caster is slightly more positive on the driver's side (not out enough for adjustment.) Does anyone else have a similar problem? Any suggestions? Please spare comments about road crown, tire inflation, and torque steer, as it's obviously not due to any of those things. You can email me at joeshed@lycos.com if you like.
  • mapman1138mapman1138 Member Posts: 68
    I must disagree with sphinx on the similarities between the CL-S & S2000 6MT's. The CL-S shifter is every bit as good as the S2000's, with just *slightly* longer throws. The difference is the clutch: the S2000 clutch (at least on my car) was very progressive, with take-up occurring roughly mid-stroke. My CL-S has a very abrupt action, with take-up occurring very quickly - like as soon as you let the pedal up off of the floor. It took some getting used to, but now I like it.

    I'm not saying that every CL-S behaves this way, but I have heard others describe their cars in a similar manner.

    FYI, I've put nearly 11,000 miles on the CL-S so far, and the clutch action hasn't really changed. I owned my S2000 for a little more than two years and approximately 17,000 miles.
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Member Posts: 776
    The clutch engagement wasn't quite as smooth/docile/progressive as the S2000's. I didn't drive enough to get a strong feel either way but I'll definitely take your word for it.
  • joeandcarol2joeandcarol2 Member Posts: 152
    The 6 speed clutch does seem unnecessary abrupt. It uses a hydraulic actuator. Is there a cause and effect?
  • loseitjeeploseitjeep Member Posts: 2
    i too have noticed that this car likes to drift...any thoughts on why that may be?
  • tarasitaptarasitap Member Posts: 1
    Mine doesn't drift. But after about 12000 miles, the steering wheel is no longer perfectly centred and I could swear the on-centre feel is not is good as it once was. Steering just seems to be....more loose, for lack of a better description.
  • mapman1138mapman1138 Member Posts: 68
    I don't know if it's getting worse on not, but it is a bit disconcerting at times. It's a bit like a Buick, steering-wise (that is *not* a compliment!)
  • steve1276steve1276 Member Posts: 2
    I have a 2001 CL-S. Is anyobdy else having a really hard time finding an air filter for the type S motor? Can't find one in any of the HUGE auto parts store and really don't feel like paying 300% about retail at my rip-off dealer. Does anybody know if there's an internet store or something?
  • mapman1138mapman1138 Member Posts: 68
    So I figure that it must be normal. And yes, "loosey goosey" would be a good way to describe it. It seems to be very vague on-center, and I'm constantly having to make minor course corrections, especially in long sweepers. At first I thought that I was just overly sensitive, having come from a very sharp-steering sports car, but I'm pretty much convinced that it's the car, not me.

    How's the weather there in Newfoundland?
  • joeandcarol2joeandcarol2 Member Posts: 152
    I have heard a number of complaints about loose steering for the CL. But in the past everyone said it was great as new and then loosened up. Why did you buy with this type of steering? Also what model year is yours?
    The type S has "torque sensitive" steering. I wonder if there is a design defect. This bums me out as I would like to purchase a 6 speed CL.
  • mapman1138mapman1138 Member Posts: 68
    Good question! I was mightily sick of commuting in my S2000, and I didn't really notice the vague steering. Perhaps I was blinded by the [relative] abundance of torque, and coddled by the [again, relatively] cushy interior. Whatever the case, it's not a deal-breaker, IMO - just a bit disappointing.

    Mine is a 2003 6-speed.
  • fredvhfredvh Member Posts: 857
    I am also interested in the TL for my next new car but I am worried over the transmission issue. I have heard a couple of terrible stories on this forum of the transmission suddenly and abrubtly failing on the highway. How could one drive 70 mph and be worried that all of a sudden the trans could drop into a much lower gear especially how close some trucks drive behind you? Has Acura come out and officially stated that this problem has been corrected in the new TLs. I did read earlier on this forum that new TLs manufactured after May of 2002 have been corrected but I do not think that came from Acura. The car is everything that I want in an entry-level luxury vehicle at a reasonable price but the transmission is a troublesome issue. I wonder if these abrubt failures have been reported to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
  • rjs1177rjs1177 Member Posts: 4
    I'm looking for a near luxury coupe that won't break the bank (I need to buy a Ducati later this year). Any suggestions/comparisons between the 325 and the CL-S? I want to spend not much more than $35K so I ruled out the 330CI and the G35. Any help would be appreciated.
  • prefabprefab Member Posts: 7
    hello. last summer i posted a message to the effect that my 2001 cl was a fuel
    efficient automobile. since the winter months rolled in, (i live in albany, ny) my fuel efficiency has dropped significantly to 17-18 mpg. last summer/early fall i was averaging 26-27. i even got 30 mpg on two different tankfuls. i have always pumped premium fuel. my commute has changed somewhat. instead of 336 miles round trip, i now travel 10 miles round trip. 2.5 of the those miles are urban driving, the other 7.5 are highway driving. i use the sequential shift mode to drive my car and am no leadfoot or jack rabbit starter. in other words, conservative and defensive is my driving nature.

    my question is: what mpg's are you getting?
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    prefab-

    I wouldn't worry. The gas companies put in gas additives in the winter which seems to decrease gas mileage.

    fastdriver
  • shehzadshehzad Member Posts: 52
    Hello---I'm thinking about purchasing a cltype s as an everyday commuter car (70 miles round trip). Any thoughts, worries, or problems with the car? I read the last few pages of this board and see that the transmission causes trouble--no problems with the 6 speed though-right? I've also heard from a friend that acura is going to stop production b/c of slow sales---is this true? A colleague drives a four door tl and waxes poetic about it, but I'm on the fence in terms of buying right now, so I'd really appreciate your opinions on the car.
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    How about the upcoming TSX. It's smaller, lighter and economical than the CL/TL. Its performance and fun-to-drive index shouldn't be too shabby either. There is a very good chance the CL will be discontinued and the TL is due for a complete makeover. For those reasons I would be hesitant in buying either of those 2 right now.
    But if you don't want a 4-door....well, how about the '03 Accord coupe?
  • shehzadshehzad Member Posts: 52
    I think the TSX might be a good choice, although the problem is, I need something very soon, as I just totalled my other daily driver. The accord---an emphatic NO! Nice cars but it seems like every Tom Dick and Harry has one---understandably--they're great cars; but at the same time, I've always imagined (emphasis on imagined) myself to be a free spirit that doesn't follow the masses. Any thoughts on the new G35 coupe as a comparison to the typeS---they're certainly sharp looking cars.
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