Mercedes 380--450--560 SLs

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

Oh, yes, definitely professionally. Also, you'll need to have the car thoroughly looked over and safety checked. Lots of things can deteriorate on a car with this type of low mileage and you should certainly not just get in it and drive it. Belts, hoses and major fluid changes are in order, and probably new tires.

asc63 · May 2002

Hi -- thanks for your quick response. This car gets serviced yearly and is gone over by the same mechanic who's seen the car since new, so I thank you for your recommendation. The only thing requiring replacing were the seals on the A/C which had dry rotted out (from lack of use). The oil gets changed every year (even though mileage is quite minimal). Otherwise the car's in really decent shape.

Thanks again - I just recently found this bulletin board and have enjoyed reading up.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

Brake fluid and coolant will need flushing, too.

asc63 · May 2002

A (hopefully) quick question: per the owner's manual, central locking locks the doors, trunk, and fuel filler door. In the manual, it seems as though the trunk can be unlocked this way. However, the only way I am able to open the trunk it by using the key, turning fully counterclockwise, and depressing the button. Is there some way the trunk can be unlocked (opened) without using the key?

burdawg · May 2002

Your vacuum trunk lock should work when the master element in the drivers door is operated, by unlocking with the key or opening the locked drivers door from inside. I don't recall if the SL had a valet override, I don't think so. You could have a problem with the vacuum element (solenoid) in the trunk next to the lock. It's behind an access panel next to the lock. If the central locking system works normally (no excessive leaks), I would suspect that the trunk element is getting stuck or the locking clip has slipped off the mechanism.
Your locking system should have enough vacuum to operate reliably 6 - 7 times after shutting off the system, as long as the components are not leaking. On a 1980 there's a real possibility of leaks. The vacuum storage tank is in the trunk on this model I believe.
A real easy way to see if the system is sound is to run the car, then shut it off and lock the doors. Check the fuel door to see if is locked. If it is, then let the car sit for awhile, perhaps overnight, and check it again. The locking pin on the fuel door is spring loaded (it's the only element that is), so if the vacuum is leaking out, it will unlock by itself.
Let me know if I can help you, I have quite a bit of experience with the locking system, climate control, and electronics on these models.

burdawg · May 2002

When I said "shutting off the system" I meant shutting off the engine. I guess I tend to use technician speak.

asc63 · May 2002

My thanks to Burdawg for his help. It turns out the vacuum lines were reversed in the trunk, and now lock is operating as it should.

A new question for the group. My car (1980 450SL) has the Becker Mexico AM/FM cassette, with the 2 dash mounted speakers. Anyone have any experience upgrading to a AM/FM/CD unit, and adding addition speakers? Successfully? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

Switching to a CD should be a pretty straightforward procedure for any shop and I think the speakers can fit into that rear jump seat area, through the trunk. I'd avoid chewing up the doors if you can. Maybe there's some room in the lower kick panels, too.

asc63 · May 2002

Thanks for your advice on the stereo. This should be the last question (for awhile, I hope!), and perhaps someone has had experience with this. I am having trouble with the driver's side reclining bucket seat. Passenger side works fine (reclining quite far), whereas the driver's side binds, and winds up twisting, and won't recline far. I assume this is more due to such little use over the last 22 years.

Is this a simple fix through disassembling the seat and lubricating some parts? Does the back of the seat come off easily?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

sddlw · May 2002

My wife's '84 380SL already had aftermarket speakers in the doors. I had the door panel off to replace a window and they really did do quite a bit of damage to the structural steel of the door putting those speakers in. I'd try Shifty's suggestion and avoid the doors. But I think the gas tank is directly behind the jump seat area. You should investigate this from the trunk and see if there is enough room before you cut.

We had a custom auto-audio shop build subwoofer enclosure in the ledge area behind the seats. Started out by ripping out the existing pressboard and plywood and old speakers that were there and designing an accoustically correct sound box. It raised the height of the ledge about 2" from stock, bit gave enough room for a nice subwoofer and about a 1" tall slit opening facing forward. We then covered it with matching carpet. Can't even tell it's there, except when the stereo is on.

sddlw · July 2002

Just put on a new set of wheels to the 380SL and what a difference. Some purests will probably cringe, but we went with 16x 7.5 Italia Type 8 Mercedes Benze (knock-offs) with the blue and silver center emblem (like on the hood, with 235X50R16 Dunlops. Bye-bye old 14" rims and 70R profile tires. I like the look and feel of these much better.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2002

Is this the wheel?

Those are pretty nice, not all that different from the stock wheel really.

sddlw · July 2002

Yup, that's it. Oh and with 225's. I miss-typed above. Certinly a big difference from the look of the original 14" wheels. I think it really updates the look.

It's funny, I'm always so impressed at how much difference new tires makes in the ride, and by 30 kmiles or so I've forgotten and am so suprised all over again. Probably some sort of pre-alzheimer's.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2002

Well I meant by "not too different" in that they are both slotted wheels with a little hub in center--of course the design is different.

What I personally don't like on an SL is chrome wires. They are just wrong for the car, especially 14" wires. Wire wheels really need to be "big and airy" (so you can see through them) and also work best on cars that are somewhat old-fashioned in design (e.g., older British or American cars).

tdiddy18 · July 2002

What are the "age related" problems that I am likely to run into when buying a 560 convertible. I have owned many older American cars and this would be my first adventure with a foreign make. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2002

Pretty sturdy car the 560SL. Probably the greatest concerns, presuming the car has evidence of good maintenance, would be in the AC system (a chronic Mercedes shortfall of that era), little electrical glitches (no fun digging out a bad heater fan for instance) and deterioration of top and upholstery (can you say "expensive"?). The build quality is superb and from a structural point of view the 560SL is virtually indestructible. Anyone who succeeds in trashing the body and chassis of a 560SL deserves a medal for being that determined to destroy something. It isn't easy.

So I'd check all maintenance records and also play with every dial and knob numerous times to make sure everything works. Also, of course, a complete mechanical inspection would reveal any oil leaks, which can occur over time as seals dry up.

tdiddy18 · July 2002

Mr. Shiftright - - thanks for the info.... I will certainly feel more at ease looking at one of these beauties. It's good to know that they have brawn and well as appeal.You can be sure my mechanic will check any car I plan to buy. Thanks again.

sddlw · July 2002

FYI: we replaced the top on our 380 for about $600 installed, and had the leather seats redone for $700-800/seat. New carpet set at about $500 installed. You can get dash wood kits for a couple hundred over the internet.

I would just plan on having the AC rebuilt and converted to the new coolant if not already done. Also, I've ended up replacing struts and shocks on all 3 of our past MBs by 80Kmiles, and new rotor discs every 60-80kmiles (the SLs are not light cars). One of the more expensive electrical issues can be the ignition system's electronic "brain". Unfortunately, there isn't much warning before it goes bad. Luckly there are rebuilt units for a couple hundred (as opposed to $2K new!!). Another thing to check is the fit of the hard-top. Many will sit around a garage for the life of the car and can be "sprung" by a bad drop by getting tipped off their storage cart.

If it's leaking ANY oil or fluid, find out from where. Some of those seals and gaskets can be expensive to replace and some are not very expensive at all.

tdiddy18 · July 2002

Being a newcomer to this marque I have to plead major ignorance. In fact I was unaware that the 380 existed until after I started my search. I was attracted to the MB in 1975, a friend owned a 190. I thought I would never be able to afford one. Then comes "life expenses". Now I am drawn again to the car and still think the 450 is an absolute classic. I figure at my age, if I don't do it now, I never will. Dependability is my prime concern. Is there any difference between the 380 and 560 or is it just a different model number? I really appreciate you guys putting up with me, Thanks

sddlw · July 2002

I'm sure Mr. Shiftright will weigh in on this question in favor of the 560SL being more modern, refined, and powerful. It is a bit more expensive for a good condition, low milage one ($15-20K in my area). However, I cannot comment on it's relative reliability. BTW: the numbers correspond to approximate piston displacement in CCs. The 380 is a much smaller engine than the 560.

My wife's 380SL seems to be fairly reliable. We are the second owners having been given it by my wife's boss about 2.5 years ago with 85kmiles. The car was basicly in good shape but needed some maintanence attention and cosmetics. But as Shifty points out, these do add up. We had our mechanic to a total top to bottom inspection and R&R on it for roughly $6k. We've been doing little more than oil changes and lubes since then. We also had about $6k in cosmetic fixes done, some of which I listed in my earlier message, and have added new wheels and a few other little stuff. I guess we probably have $14-15k into it, over and above getting the car we started with for free. Given the actual value (if we went to sell it) is probably a hair over $10K, this is not a money making proposition. However, people are always commenting on the car. My wife just loves it. And any kind of new car with the same kind of presence will be at least $45K. The first couple years depreciation will more than make up for what we've spent. Oh, and did I mention, my wife is happy (go figure the monetary value of that) :-)

If you do consider a 380SL in particular keep in mind that the 81-83 models had a single chain timing chain that was somewhat problematic. The 84-85 models had double chains. Many of the 81-83 models have been retrofitted.

jrosasmc · July 2002

But a 380SL will never get the good gas mileage of, say, a Jetta or Cavalier, right?

ghulet · July 2002

I'd figure a 380 or 560 would probably get the mileage of a big V8 Mercedes sedan of the same era, probably like 12-14 in the city and you might see 20 mpg highway with a light foot and the wind at your back. The 560s, IIRC, had a gas guzzler tax, if that tells you anything.

Modern small 4-cylinder sedans generally do about twice as well on mileage.

sddlw · July 2002

We drive about 50/50 in-town and freeway and average about 16-17mpg.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2002

They are heavy cars and the technology is old by today's standards, so you have to be realistic in your fuel mileage expectations. But considering the performance levels of the 560SL especially, it's not half bad. You could buy a new BMW M5 sedan and do a lot worse on fuel mileage.

$600 for a new top on an SL is a hell of a price. I can't comment on the quality, not seeing the $600 item. The factory top is a high quality German canvas and has a very intricate padded lining. Of course, as the old SLs are not high dollar cars, it makes sense to find a good quality economical replacement, even if it doesn't quite duplicate factory standards. $1,200-1,500 is a bit much for a top! Also I think where you live will vary the price, as labor is a big part of the price tag on these tops.

sddlw · July 2002

My memory might be playing tricks on me, but I'm pretty sure it was in the $600 price range. German canvas rather than the US vinyl, but not lined. I think this might be where the difference lies. When we were talking things over with the guy who did the work, he never mentioned padded or lined tops. The one that was on the car when we got it was also unlined.

The extra $$ might be worth it if it dampened the road noise. One thing about a convertable top is that things get noisy at freeway speed.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2002

Oh, you know, I may be thinking of the older 280SL tops, so don't quote me on the lining business for the 380. I'll have to check that out further.

The price seems low to me because I'm used to California labor rates, and the labor alone would be near $600....well, maybe not quite that but out this way even a lowly Miata top costs a bundle. My Alfa Spyder top was $800 but it was a beautiful top and a beautiful job.

Nothing looks worse than an SL with a slack top. The vinyl tops don't look very good on a Benz in my opinion. They are more suitable for American cars.

sddlw · July 2002

I thought the price was pretty low too. But we did have a lot of stuff done all at once. Seats, carpet set, top, some vinyl pieces, wood trim, etc. maybe he cut us a deal.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2002

Well, great, I like deals too! Especially out in California, with some shop rates pushing $100/hr, "starter" homes at $850,000 and gas at $2.10 a gallon here and there. Of course, I don't pay any of those silly prices. Like the old song goes, you betta shop around.

sddlw · July 2002

Unfortunately, north county San Diego seems to be right behind you guys in the Bay Area in cost of living. At least a starter home can be had here for $500k.

Shop rates here seem to still be in the $65-75/hr range, at least near my office in Mira Mesa. As you say though, you gotta shop around. Still, I wouldn't shop price alone.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2002

No, especially on repairing or servicing an old SL. The repair shop has to know what it is doing, in a big way. Just because someone is named "Hans" or just because he has an excellent reputation fixing Porsches, doesn't mean he knows anything worthwhile about fixing an SL.

Small example: My Mercedes diesel needs glow plugs. Well, you say, just like putting in spark plugs, any competent shop can do that.

Well now, not so fast. First of all there are two types available for my car, so you need to know that to get the right ones. Then there is a special "thread chaser" designed just for this purpose, that you must use to clean the carbon out of the threads. Why? Because the carbon can ground the glow plugs, even new ones (you put them in but they don't work correctly). THEN you have to know to spin the engine over to expel the crud you dug up in the threads. Then you need physical dexterity and patience and the ability to disconnect the then bleed diesel injection lines.

How'd I learn all this. I read the factory manuals carefully. How many "Hanses" who only work on Porsches will do this?

pobrian · August 2002

I'm the proud owner of a '67 230sl with a shot transmission. I've had one heck of a time finding anyone that can locate parts to rebuild it, or to simply find another rebuilt to replace with. My quotes run anywhere from $2k+ to rebuild the existing to $4k for a completely rebuilt. Unfortunately I don't know much more about cars than is needed to drive one! Anyone have any comments that might help?

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Well, if by "help" you mean a cheap way out, I don't think so. I assume this is an automatic.

You might comb through Hemmings Motor News in the Mercedes parts section. It's possibly you could be lucky enough to score a good used one--but it would have to come from a very reliable source, or better yet, from a running car. Also there are rebuilders in Hemmings.

The Mercedes Club might be of help as well, and there are all kinds of SL specialists listed on the Internet.

Getting a trans rebuilt isn't hard but getting it done reasonably and done well is what takes the effort and research.

sddlw · August 2002

Our 84 380SL is acting odd. Once or twice in a 100 miles, while braking, the car will want to suddenly go to the left or right. It might be a slight pull or it might be rather pronounced and it will take you completely by suprise. I was thinking that there mught be a hange-up with the brake caliper the first time it happened, but then the next time it pulled to the oposite side. Maybe air in the hydrolics? Any ideas? I'm taking it in later this week.

sddlw · August 2002

And the current tuner is dying. So we are looking for a new tuner with a single CD slot. .... Have you been out shopping for anything lately? Everything I've seen this weekend, except for a $900 McIntosh looks like it is the control panel for a video game. Even though the old SL isn't a collector's item, I hate to put such an obviously "this mellenium" tuner in.

Anybody aware of a decent, mid-range ($400 or less) car stereo tuner/CD that still has knobs, a few buttons, and no flashing lights?

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

You need to have the front end checked. There may be something amiss there, especially if the car can swerve to either side.

Good luck finding auto sound equipment that can be interfaced by real human fingers and eyes. The designers have all gone mad. If you're real lucky, you might find an actual round knob that adjusts the volume, but you'll never find a manual tuner knob anymore or any type of analog tuning. Too bad, too.

ghulet · August 2002

...I was recently looking for a cheap stereo for my old Honda. I want something *simple*, apparently that's too much to ask. A million tiny buttons, remote controls, bright green, yellow, blue or pink displays, silver face (which clashes badly with the matte black of most '80s cars). Ick. It almost makes me want to find a lackluster circa-1987 factory unit. I'd rather it sound marginal and not look quite so absurd.

Who thought of remote controls for dash mounted stereos, anyway? I can still reach the stereo, thank you, and seeing as how I lose remote controls in my own home, I don't think one in my car is going to fare much better!

Anyway, my mom replaced the Becker in her 300E with a Sony in-dash single CD a few years back. You may want to do a search on the web, check Crutchfield (though I personally think they're a bit overpriced), or call your local Mercedes dealer or repair shop and ask advice.

sddlw · August 2002

Thanks for the lead. Looking at Cruchfield just reinforced my gloom. Oh well. Guess we're over the hill, don't have a clue, old geezers. I'll keep looking though!

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

You know, I just remembered that I've seen a line of "vintage-looking" tape and CD players that are sold to classic car owners. They are modern units but look "old" in the faceplate. I'm wondering if Hemmings Motor News would list such things.

sddlw · August 2002

Thanks for the lead. I checked out the web site but didn't find anything. The vendor showcase pages were not available though. I'll go back to check them out later. I'm taking the car in to check out the brakes and front end this morning. My mechanic does work on a lot of old MBs. He might have some leads.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Check your tie rods and check for something like a loose steering box. I bet you'll find a front end problem.

sddlw · August 2002

Just got a call from Ziggy (my mechanic). Front end in good shape. No tie rod problems or bushing deterioration. Calipers in excellent shape. Steering box loose, need to rebuild the ball joint and box assembly. He also suspects that the old hydraulic hoses may have swollen inside and reduced the flow of hydrolic fluid. Said he's seen this before. So were gonna try new hoses and fluid and a steering box rebuild and see what happens.

Ah, the joys of an older car. What would I do with all that money of we didn't drive cars. :-)

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Oh, we'd waste it on food or our kids education.

sddlw · August 2002

Wow, what a difference. I guess these things kind of creep up on you. I had started to notice a little play in the steering. But with a new ball joint, the overall performance of the steering is like night and day. The brakes seem much crisper too. I guess the new hoses were needed. Since the problem with pulling to one side or the other was intermittent, I'll just have to wait to see if the problem is gone.

jaserb · August 2002

I just installed a new Blaupunkt San Diego CD32 stereo in my Alfa Spider and it looks like it was born there. The one I got was a cheapie ($159 at Crutchfield) but it looks good and has enough power to hear it at 70 with the top down. Blau doesn't have it on their web site yet - look at Crutchfield (sorry, this link don't wanna work)

www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-Ig4NNrAnBbb/ProdView.asp?s=0&c=3&g=300&I=023SANDIEG&o=m&a=0

The Santa Fe CD32 is similar with a few more bells and whistles. If you want something a little nicer, check out the Nakamichis at http://www.nakamichiusa.com - these are VERY nice, clean looking, and probably have much better sound than my cheap Blau, but I decided I didn't need to spend that much.

-Jason (who hates "bling bling" stereos)

sddlw · August 2002

Hey thanks Jason! The Blaupunkt isn't bad looking at all, but the Nakamichi line is about as close to the look we want as anything I've seen. In fact, I think it not only blends well with the 80's style, but looks better than the original Becker. I'm going to talk to the guy who is doing our installation today and see if the CD-40z or CD-45z will be compatible with the other parts of the current system (amp, sub-woofer, etc).

jaserb · August 2002

I think we're starting to see a backlash against the gaudy, flashy aftermarket stereos that have been forced on us. If you look at the 2001 Blaupunkt T-line compared to the 2002 models the new ones are far more restrained and tasteful.
In the end I chose the Blau strictly on convenience and price - a local shop had the San Diego in stock for $100 ($60 less than Crutchfield!), while even the cheapest Nakamichis were $200+++ and I couldn't find a convenient source. If I were installing it in a Benz I probably would have cared more about sound quality but in a noisy, snarly Alfa about the best you can hope for is to hear it above the engine / wind noise. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!

-Jason

sddlw · August 2002

Bad news. I guess Nak is having some "supply chain" difficulties during a model changeover. They have phased out the CD35z and 40z models and are expecting to be able to supply the CD-45Z in about 3-4 weeks, but at a higher price, along with a new series of gear. :-(

Our second choice is made by Eclipse. It is kind of similar to the Blau in overall design, although the LED screens are a little more pronounced. But does have all the modern technology we are looking for including a separate sub-woofer channel and comes highly recommended by our install guy. At least it doesn't flash lights and silly designs ;-)

My wife decided not to wait (and pay more) for the Nak, so I'm going in Saturday for the Eclipse.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Might even be more reliable, too.

asc63 · September 2002

My '80 450SL driver's seat doesn't like to recline. The shaft which links the knob from the left side to the right side comes out of the square-drive gear that it fits into. Usually I can fit the shaft back in, and then it works. But invariably it comes out, and then the knob freezes up and jams. This has resulted in my driving around with the cover off of the back of the driver's seat.

Has anyone else encountered this problem, and/or know of a fix?

Thanks!

Mr_Shiftright · September 2002

Must be a lost retaining clip or pin somewhere in that seat. You could unbolt it and take it to an upholsterer if you can't figure out how to secure it. they do this kind of stuff all the time.

Mercedes 380--450--560 SLs

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