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Toyota Engine Sludge Problem
catcher09
Member Posts: 7
After reading other post about Sienna owners having sludge problem, I wonder if these owners are using conventional motor oil and changed their oil at every 7,500 miles or 6 months interval?
Does anyone using 100% synthetic (not blend) motor oil and changed their oil at above stated interval also experiencing engine sludge problem?
I have a 2001 Sienna and I had my first oil change at 2K. I replaced with Mobil 1 oil & filter. I changed the oil 6 month later using Amsoil oil & filter. I have no problem. I changed from Mobil 1 to Amsoil because Mobil recently changed their formula in their production of Mobil 1.
Maybe using 100% synthetic motor oil might avoid sludge problem because synthetic oil can absorb a higher tempeture so the oil would not breakdown so easily. Any comments welcome and will definitely help all Sienna owners.
Does anyone using 100% synthetic (not blend) motor oil and changed their oil at above stated interval also experiencing engine sludge problem?
I have a 2001 Sienna and I had my first oil change at 2K. I replaced with Mobil 1 oil & filter. I changed the oil 6 month later using Amsoil oil & filter. I have no problem. I changed from Mobil 1 to Amsoil because Mobil recently changed their formula in their production of Mobil 1.
Maybe using 100% synthetic motor oil might avoid sludge problem because synthetic oil can absorb a higher tempeture so the oil would not breakdown so easily. Any comments welcome and will definitely help all Sienna owners.
0
Comments
My topic is focused only on those vehicles, so the thread needs to be included in the "Problems" page of each. I do not want my posts redirected to this area. Specific model information is sought which is best under specific model problem discussion.
Thank you.
Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
I for one, would want to know all makes/models or owner experiences who have had this problem. I would consider myself a more informed consumer.
I was under the assumption that Town Hall was a place for all consumers and the objective was to share and discuss information, not gather ammunition for one's personal ventures.
I for one, think that this is good place for such a discussion and would welcome any comments or user experiences on this issue.
Has anyone had this problem? If so, what make/model? What was your maintenance schedule like?
1) Persistent drifting/pulling to the left or the right
2) Uneven wear of tires with need for early replacement
3) Premature brake component wear, including rear brake drums
4) Power steering problems, including inner tie rod or total rack and pinion replacement
5) Vibrations, esp. at speeds above 50 MPH
6) Premature transmission problems or failure
7) Torque converter replacement, sometimes just after delivery
8) Sliding door latch problems with sticking and difficulty opening
9) Oil sludge in the engine related to a contaminated system
IF you have experienced these problems, please write to the following agencies and file a report detailing your case. THEN, network with others by visiting sites where owners post experiences.
U.S. Department of Transportation
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Office of Defects Investigations
NSA-10.01
400 7th Street, NW
Washington, D.C. 20590
1-800-424-9393
1-888-327-4236
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov
Center for Auto Safety
1825 Connecticut Ave., NW
Suite 330
Washington, D.C. 20009-5708
http://www.autosafety.org
The Complaint Station--click "T", then "Toyota"
http://www.thecomplaintstation.com
Car Trackers Discussion Forum
http://www.cartrackers.com
Phil Edmonston's Lemon-Aid Car Guides
http://www.lemonaidcars.com
Also, use the USENET groups:
alt.autos.toyota
alt.autos.toyota.camry
Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
If you post at http://www.itsaconspiracy.com, I'm sure someone will be able to help.
;-)
Re: the Chrysler situation, are you saying the cases are similar? I need to let you know that there was a major NHTSA investigation of the ABS in some Chrysler models (for several years). When the ABS failed, the regular brakes were almost totally absent. There were ultimately 350,000 vehicles RECALLED for that defect. Yes, a class action lawsuit had been started BEFORE the recall. NO, Chrysler made no move to recall the brakes PRIOR to that time.
YES, there were networking owners who banded together to initiate the suit but only after being STONEWALLED continually by the automaker AND being forced to pay up to $3,000 for the ABS repair. End result? Chrysler reimbursed all owners (of new and used vehicles) for the repairs....at least the ones who KNEW about it and requested it. By the way, I see the same complaints on the '94 and '95 Chrysler minivans, too, but they were not included in the recall.
Look, if you think that is the route ANY of us want to take in ANY confirmed defect, you are wrong. All you have to do is pick up a copy of the LEMON BOOK by Clarence Ditlow and Ralph Nader to see what owners have to go through in many cases to be HEARD by the automaker. In the Chrysler case, I heard it all. Nothing surprises me anymore. From early '95 until mid '96, it was that "owners just don't know how to use their ABS." This was the **SPIN** by the automaker to explain the countless occurrences of brake failure, which resulted in accidents for many owners. BUT, the owners did not buy it. Good thing that they did NOT.
Having said all that, I do not want to be part of a class action lawsuit. I want the safe and reliable vehicle promised me. I want to own my vehicle for 10+ years with no MAJOR failures. If I have this, I will be totally satisfied. I doubt that I am alone in this sentiment.
I would prefer not to be here in this forum. If I was satisfied with the quality of the product, I wouldn't waste my time here trying to locate additional information. You will not convince me that satisfied owners spend their time in a forum about PROBLEMS. It wouldn't make sense.
Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
The most common cause of media saturation and gasoline odour is forced filling of the fuel tank.
And, if you do have a bit of sludge...so what?
It isn't going to kill your engine!
If we simply ignore her postings she will go away, folks!
"I agree to disagree in a civil manner should I take issue with the statements of another Town Hall participant or any Edmunds.com, Inc. Editor or content contributor. I understand that civility and respect underlie the success of an on-line community such as Town Hall."
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If you have any questions, please feel free to mail me.
Dan S. Livingston
Manager, Community
Town Hall
Edmunds.com
dlivingston@Edmunds.com
In my old Chry. voyager, 3.0 lit. engine, the pcv valve stopped up and i caught it quite by accident when checking the oil about a month after an oil change.
There was a jelly-ish like crud on the oil cap and more in the inside of the valve cover. PCV was totally blocked, and the other crankcase vent hose had some blockage too; WHen I replaced the pcv and changed the oil a couple time to get the gunk out, all was fine; no idea how much stuff remained in the engine though.
I believe that even a partially blocked pcv in engines, esp with cold weather short trip driving could build up sludge in the engine as the blow-by gases which contain moisture, don't get vented properly. The voyager pcv threads into the intake manifold and has a VERY SMALL bore; much easier to become plugged than my other car's.
Any others heard about this being a problem point in engines / engine maintenance?
PS: Have a new 2000 sienna and am watching for any indication of sludging; based upon the above posts will bring the issue to the attention of my Toyota dealer during maintenance and get THEIR recommendations for 'PROPER' maintenance.
Besides, starting a class action litigation against Toyota is already what someone has in mind.
Dan, 'read only' is a good fate for this topic.
Basically, my warranty on this relatively new car is null and void! They told me I'd be forking out between $5-7500. to fix it or they could "clean it up" for $2,000. but with no guarantee. It would probably still smoke.
I've ALWAYS purchased Toyotas and bragged about the cars. My last Carry went 186,000 miles and I'm sure it's still going great. Wondering if another messenger is right in that maybe Toyota is getting arrogant and their workmanship isn't the same as it used to be. Definitely their service attitude has something to be desired.
Anyway, they put the fear in me so I traded it in last week for an Infiniti. I love the new car but feel sad that my relationship with Toyota ended this way. I'd never recommend them again and I'm sorry about that.
Diane
Lexus Service Manager told me that, although I had receipts from others, there is no proof that they actually replaced the oil or the filter and I would have to prove that they didn't. He told me to go back to the "oil changer" for justification. I didn't think of him having to prove the other way around.
Didn't mention before that the Service Manager told me, frankly, that I should get rid of the car. What's that tell you?! The District Sales Manager didn't like hearing he said that!
Also, when I called around to different Auto Mechanics in the area, I was surprised to learn each one of them had an ES300 in their shops for the same problem..... including the Lexus dealership.
Can't help but think there really is something there and Charlene may be right, guys!
"T," then, "Toyota"). You are not the only Lexus owner who has posted about the matter, rest assured. I just noticed recently that Lexus owners are describing the same phenomenon.
I would imagine that you are not alone re: early trade in either. It is unfortunate that your warranty was not honored. I suppose most owners would expect that the higher price of the Lexus would come with higher quality. It's like the "Town & Country" Chrysler minivan vs. the stripped-down Plymouth Voyager....you get the SAME ENGINE. When there is a defect, you lose more with the luxury model.
By the way, "dbauman2," could you verify that we have not linked either by e-mail or on a website? People post when the need arises. I am glad that you chose to share your story. Thank you.
Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
I have a hard time believing that Toyota would fail to honor their warranty simply because you couldn't prove that you actually had your oil and filter changesd IF you had receipts for EVERY one. There is nothing that stipulates that you must have all work done from a Toyota dealer.
I do know that there are times when an "oil changer" says they changed the oil and did not. I was getting my tires balanced and rotated at a tire place that did oil changes and overheard an irrate custumer complaining that they had paid for an oil change, got home, checked the dipstick, and realized the oil had never been changed. Now this place was doing a lot of oil changes, so I wonder how many other people this may have happened to?
You should also remember that there are many discount "oil changers" out there, you know, the one that advertise an oil change for $10-14. Doesn't it make you think what type of quality you're getting when their parts cost is probably $7-9, without labor and overhead. If you guessed lousy quality parts than you guessed right. The oil, probably sold in bulk, is either recycled or of such inferior quality that it does not have the additives necessary to prevent sludge from developing. And a wet paper towel would probably do a better job than some of those cheap oil filters that are out there.
Please also remember that "cblake", to my knowledge based on her postings, does not actually have sludge. She thinks she might have it but nothing has been confirmed. Her THEORY is that every Toyota engine (or at least the V6 in the Sienna) is designed with a flaw that will create sludge, regardless of how often you change your oil. Nothing has been proven to substantiate this theory. What has been proven is that she has had problems with every vehicle she has owned, regardless of the manufacturer, so I would take everything posted by her with a grain of salt.
Sounds like readytobuy1 is a toyota employee!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nor am I a mechanic, although it sounds like you're fairly knowledgable. Am I to understand that even the cheapest oils, like those rated SJ, are equivelant in quality to other superior oils? That they have the same additives in them as do the superior oils? And am I to understand that a Toyota filter is equivelant to the no-name $1.75 filters?
You also make some assumptions: that there is a documented sludge problem with 4-cylinder Toyota engines (can you direct me as to where I can confirm this information) and that everyone changes their oil at 3,000 miles (I find it highly unlikely that the Lexus owner had the oil changed with this frequency and still had sludge).
As to the dealers high prices, I have to agree. I wouldn't pay $40 for a dealer oil change (regular oil) unless they included a wash and wax. Our local Toyota dealer does regular oil changes for $19. They do get $40 for Mobil1 synthetic oil changes whereas other places charge around $30. I've only had 1 oil change (regular oil) but am considering using Mobil 1 synthetic oil on my next change and for now on.
As to the sludge issue, sorry, should not have implied that I had documentation. Have heard this from some dealers etc. but no documentation. So, how do you know that they will put Mobil 1 in your engine (unless you watch them) when you pay $40 for an oil change? I do my own because I almost never trust a mechanic to do anything correclty.
You're absolutely correct that you never know what mechanics are doing (or not doing) when you get the oil changed unless you watch them carefully, whether it be at the dealer or anywhere else.
I used to change the oil myself in my 4Runner because I could crawl under it, but don't want to go through the hassle of lifting my Sienna. I recently had my other vehicles oil changed (2000 Mazda 626) at a Wal-Mart. They charged $28 for Mobil 1 and I was able to keep a close eye on everything. My only problem is they only had Fram and AC Delco filters to choose from, so I ended up using a Fram (yech!). I would have even paid more $$ for a better filter but they didn't have one. I am considering purchasing better filters somewhere else and just having Wal-Mart use it instead of a Fram the next time around. I'm going to look for the Pure One filters or Amsoil/Hasting filters at the local Auto Parts store.
Have had 6 Toyotas with a grand total of over 600,000 miles and never any sludge (3 were v-6's).
This is a BS fantasy.
HiC
As to the valves, sorry to inform you but almost every brand of filter on the market has the two valves you speak of. They may differ in quality as to how well they seat etc. and prevent flow back but every filter has these. This is the typical dealer argument (all manufacturers from Toyota to Ford) to use the OEM filters. By the way, ask the parts manger who makes Toyota filters, 99.9% sure that it is not Toyota. Like most products today all filters are made by a handful of companies using different specs per the brand. My Toyota dealer has the cut away comparison of two filters, of course the one that Toyota compared to is a Fram, not a quality Pure One or Mobil 1 or Amsoil.
But...sadly, some people will probably believe.
I do have to wonder though...If a person can spend the big bucks requred to drive around in a Lexus, why would they skimp to save five dollars and go to Wal Mart or some quickie lube to get their oil changed?
This isn't the first time this sludge issue has come up with respect to the Camry; there was quite a war going on in the first half of 2000, in the Camry sedan topics and later on the now-archived topic in Maintenance and Repair entitled " 'Most post 1992 Camrys have sludge problem and will seize' rumor." The 4-cylinder engine was the prime target then. The rhetoric got so vitriolic that the host froze the topic for a time in July. After about a 2-week pause, I asked him to reopen it, which he did, and this was my attempt at a summary (post #131 of 137):
"Thanks Bruce! by 210delray
Jul 22, 2000 (08:22 pm)
Ok, here goes nothing!
"Just wanted to summarize where we are and where we've come from, and maybe, where this debate can head....
"I looked through past posts and came up with only six in Edmunds who reported sludge, after the dealer or other service personnel pulled the valve cover or oil pan: rrinehart, tricia barbee (V6), Boca2, isellhondas, eden1, and aquatic (a.k.a. "frank" in alt.auto.toyotacamry). Plus there were two more elsewhere: "Norm" in alt.auto and liufei's post from looksmart. Did I miss any others?
"The one common thread through these (at least where enough detail is available) is that the cars all accumulated relatively few miles per year and the oil was changed about every 6000 to 8000 miles, some with Pennzoil which some of you think is bad stuff.
"So it seems that following Toyota's normal-service recommendation of 7500 miles between oil changes for cars that are used in short-trip driving CAN lead to problems. Still, it's fairly well known that short-trip driving, especially in cold weather, is a severe-service condition. Toyota itself recommends 5000-mile / 4-month oil and filter changes for severe service.
"However, Consumer Reports (which is far and away the best source for LONG-TERM reliability information) indicates close to stellar reliability for the Camry engines, 4-cylinder or V6.
"Still, sludge would not manifest itself to the average consumer UNLESS it caused more serious problems, such as seized engines in rrinehart's and tricia barbee's cases. (It would be nice to hear from them to see how they made out.) So maybe some (many?) people have sludge but don't realize it.
"Fxashun claims that the presence of sludge can be deduced from deposits on the oil cap. Others say that at least the valve cover has to be pulled first. I would tend to agree with the latter, unless maybe the cap had a half-inch-thick buildup of the stuff. Fxashun: can you tell us how many of the 50 or so caps that you checked had thick buildups? And NO other car models had buildups anything like the Camry 4-cylinder?
"Then there's the possible related problem of valve stem seals going bad, as happened with my '97 Camry 4-cylinder, with only 57K miles. (Other posters in edmunds have had this probem, not necessarily with sludge.) I changed the oil and filter following Toyota's severe-service schedule. Why did the dealer say, when I described the symptom of blue smoke on start-up, that the first thing they were going to do was check for sludge? Does Toyota know something? (Luckily my engine was said to be "fairly clean" [whew!] and the valve stem seals were replaced under the powertrain warranty.)
"Let's try to keep this going without this getting into another shouting match between the two sides. Personally, I still love my Camry, but if there's something going on, let's try to get to the bottom of it."
The discussion however, never got off the ground again, and the topic died just 6 posts after mine. [Isell, the car you mentioned was a Camry wagon that either had been traded in at your dealership or was purchased at an auction.]
Looks like we're going down that same road again, this time with the V6 as main target instead of the four.
Interesting isn't it that none of the current complainers state clearly how often their oil was changed before the alleged sludging occurred?
The MOST COMMON bit of information that I have seen posted by owners is that in virtually all cases, Toyota will NOT look beyond the valve cover. Toyota will NOT look AT ALL into the possibility of another cause for this sludge build up even in vehicles WITH PROPER OIL CHANGE DOCUMENTATION. I believe this treatment is unfair.
I have heard from owners that they are willing to accept blame IF IT IS PROVEN by a full and thorough examination of the engine to determine alternate causes of the sludge. Toyota is simply not doing any examination. OF COURSE, it doesn't want to know what MIGHT cause the sludge OTHER THAN the owner's neglect. Indeed, in many instances of proven oil change documentation, Toyota says it is OWNER NEGLECT anyway.
Will Toyota reach a compromise with owners? Will it allow an independent agency to fully examine the engine for problems? Will it accept the warranty for those who FULLY DESERVE it? Probably not. But, why not?
I disagree that the Complaint Station is not a credible site. Most of the sludge victims have INCLUDED AN EMAIL ADDRESS because they most certainly want to network and get more information. Most if not all remain among a growing list of "email addressbook" members. Go back and check for yourself. Actually, those who have discounted the sludge matter have *not* included an email address.
I venture to say that most owners would be willing to hear Toyota's side IF a full and thorough investigation of the V6 engine takes place. Will this ever happen? Don't know.
Those who cling to the theory that owners supposedly got their oil changed but were duped by the non-Toyota facilities are going down a dead-end street. Talk about innuendo! REALLY...what are the chances that this is being done on a regular basis to LARGE numbers of Toyota owners??
For the record, I have not had trouble with every car I have owned. It is not my theory that every Toyota engine has a flaw that will sludge it. I base my posts on the accumulated owner postings....the trends noted therein. I owned a FORD Mustang for 12 years and over 100,000 miles; I owned a Chevrolet Celebrity for 14 years and over 120,000 miles. I own a '95 Odyssey that began to have ABS trouble this year. The have had only two vehicles in which I felt compelled to write the auto manufacturer....Chrysler ('92 Dodge Caravan) and Toyota ('99 Sienna).
I agree....take everything EVERYONE says with a grain of salt. Don't believe it just because I say it. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. I wouldn't post here if I had not done so. I am only as credible as the facts I receive from others (see "http://www.businessweek.com/1996/27/b348212.htm"). If no one comes forward with the problem, I will certainly be content to reexamine the matter. I don't expect this to be the case based on current owner testimonial, however.
You can contact the Center for Auto Safety to see what documentation it has on the matter. You can also check with the NHTSA. I understand that the complaints are increasing quickly at that agency as owners discover where to file reports.
You might consider going to "http://www.cartrackers.com/Forums" to see a further listing of consumer resources. There is a new folder there entitled "Toyota." The folder was created expressly for Toyota owners to post their experiences. Please pass the word along. Certainly, both positive and negative owner experiences are welcome.
No matter WHAT the causes of sludge are, I believe Toyota has not investigated enough to satisfy owners. This will be the one thorn in its side. It must show owners that it has FULLY examined its engine for a potential flaw. My guess is that someone, somewhere will get an independent agency to do this and this may lead to further owner distrust.
Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
I'm unclear exactly what your problem was. You had 18k miles over 18 months, changing the oil on a "timely" basis (what does "timely" mean in your case? And where did you have it changed, if not at Lexus if you don't mind me asking?) and for some reason took it to Lexus, who wouldn't touch it for less than several grand.
What was the problem or symptom that you experienced that caused you to bring it to the dealer? What I'm getting is that a person doesn't just walk out to their vehicle and say, "Oh dear. I have sludge. Better have that taken care of". So there must have been something that caused you to take it to the dealer. What was that?
Also, how would you characterize the bulk of your trips? Short or long? Low speed or high speed? More bluntly, would you say most of your trips were of sufficient duration to bring your engine up to operating temperature?
On my Camry, the valve cover AND cylinder head were removed. OK, I didn't have sludge, but I did have worn valve stem seals and a head gasket that allowed a little coolant "seepage" onto the outside of the engine block.
I did not have to fight the dealer, and I only went to this dealer for warranty service. (I bought the car elsewhere and did virtually all the maintenance myself.)
My engine however, was stated to be "fairly clean" inside.
Since I did all the oil changes myself, I had only the receipts for the oil and the filters. But I did keep detailed handwritten maintenance records, so I got no flak from the dealer claiming that I had neglected any needed service.
I received new valve stem seals AND a new head gasket under the 5-year / 60K powertrain warranty, even though the car had 57K miles at the time.
Last summer, I read over hundreds of posts in Edmunds and could come up with only 6 in Edmunds and 2 from elsewhere that alleged sludge in the Camry, after the valve cover or oil pan was removed. This does not include the 50 or so reports from the Car Max tech of "sludge" on the underside of Camry 4-cylinder oil caps, but it's highly questionable whether that means anything.
Ms. Blake, you still haven't explained clearly why you believe your Sienna is beginning to show symptoms of sludging, nor how often you've changed your oil, nor how many total miles your van now has. And bblaha's right, you haven't explained clearly either, Ms. dbauman2, what led up to your problems.
As the warranty is underwritten by a major insurance company, and since they don't want to pay any claims they can avoid, I would suggest that they, after consultation with car manufacturers, have determined that 3 month oil change intervals are required to rid the engine of potentially harmful moisture contaminated oil. (sulphur from gasoline blowby + water in the crankcase from condensation = H2SO4 or sulphuric acid, good stuff for bearings) I doubt that they hold stock in any oil refining interests, nor do they own service facilities, but they absolutely will not honour the warranty unless the oil change intervals are adhered to, regardless of manufacturers' recommended service intervals (which in the case of my car happens to be 3,000 mile intervals for city/short trip driving).
For the record, the people posting about their experiences are not "Toyota-haters." Let's get that straight. No, it is clearly that they purchased vehicles that they presumed would be safe and reliable, as well as hold their value over time. The experience is one of disappointment. The owners feel that their trust has been violated.
The owners posting here have been very level-headed, detailed, and as objective as possible given their individual circumstances. I appreciate the shared stories. How comforting it is to know that WE ARE NOT ALONE.
I disagree that we are "in the minority." It was interesting to get a personal e-mail from K.LEE. As per his e-mail header, the message was sent to the same individuals who have been discrediting my postings on the USENET newsgroups....specifically, "alt.autos.toyota" and "alt.autos.toyota.camry." Doesn't take rocket science to figure out why.
I will guarantee you right now that each Toyota owner WOULD BE A LIFELONG LOYAL CUSTOMER given a different reaction from Toyota to KNOWN and WIDESPREAD problems. No Toyota owner wants the corporate door slammed in his/her face with NO PROVEN EVIDENCE that he/she caused the major premature failure in his/her vehicle.
The bottom line is there is a customer satisfaction problem right now for Toyota. You can debate the sludge issue until the cows come home, but until you resolve the way the customers are treated, you will NOT get anywhere. Let's agree that the jury is STILL OUT on the cause of this sludge problem. However, owner dissent doesn't spring up for no reason at all. This is what Toyota needs to address now.
While K.LEE's post has a lot of information about sludge in general, it does not validate or invalidate the current V6 Toyota engine debate. That debate will go on until further evidence surfaces....one way or the other or BOTH. I am open-minded to stick around and listen to any and all debate. I am not willing to close the book based on what information currently exists; nor do I think those affected are. There MUST be MORE.
Keep in mind that most posters here are very civil. Note that the ones who sling the most mud do not even leave a real name or e-mail address. There isn't any malice intent. Consumer rights is the cornerstone to the owners' argument here. Toyota's advertisements have been taken seriously and expectations of the owners are as high as the company claims its vehicles deliver. IS something wrong with this? As Levi and Kristin ask, IS this expecting TOO MUCH??
Let the debate go on until the REAL ANSWERS are discovered. Let no stone go unturned. Let Toyota speak to the owner dissent brewing. Let Toyota save face in the eyes of its valued customers. Step up to the plate.....OR, conversely, run and hide. Worse yet, hurl horrible insults and accusations at the owners! The choice is ITS alone.
Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
But, it's pure poppycock and I can't stand it.
Ms. Blake has had other axes to grind too. she's in the Odyssey forum trying to get folks riled up over some ABS problem or something on a 1995 Odyssey, I think.
And, she has been in the Chrysler Van forums too, I believe.
Folks, there are ALWAYS two sides to every story. I don't doubt that some Toyotas have had sludge problems. So have Buicks, Chevrolets, Hondas, Studebakers and every car on the road.
Here's the secret...This comes from skimping on oil changes!
If you drive short distances, stop and go, etc, change your oil more often than the books say. I do this and have NEVER had a dirty engine.
Name the car and we have probably owned one.
The sky is NOT falling, folks.
We had to shut down a Toyota Sludge topic about six months ago because it was nothing but trouble. People could not restrain themselves from talking about each other, instead of talking about the topic. Some of you know that this is my "tripwire".
Thanks for the good discussion.
bnormann
Host
Maintenance & Repair Message Board
So I need to respond to quite a few people and set a few things straight; especially with pilot13.
Regarding the use of several of the same problems being a coincidence and the possibility of the same user logging on under different names: I have NEVER posted ANY response on ANY web-site in my life. I have one User ID and that was my first post to any site. As a matter of fact, I should have written to this site before I traded in the car. I may have been convinced to sue Toyota (although I doubt that I would have gone though with it.... I'm not a fighting person and couldn't conceive of going up against some big guys).
I do not know and have never conferred with Charlene. After reading her notices and seeing the "attacks" she was under I thought I should put up my notice so people don't think she's the only one and let them know I've heard of others. I have never had problems with other cars. I loved all my past Toyotas and would rave about them to others. Maybe 1999 was a bad year for them. At this point I can only wonder about their engines and service integrity.
Now.... to answer you specific concerns:
1. You are almost correct, Pilot13. I had one, the first, oil change done by Lexus. After that I went to a reputable service provider (a notch or two above Quick Lube, I think) and checked the oil after changes. I personally think that shouldn't matter and it shouldn't void the warranty. I used to change the Carry's oil myself with Farm filters and Valvoline oil. Maybe not the best but that car went 186K miles with NO problems and that's what I would expect from Toyota. Nothing in the manual suggests other types of filters will void the warranty. Does the manual discuss the different types of filters and different valves recommended?
2. I changed my oil at 5,000 miles (once it got to 5300) but again, don't think 6-7K should KILL the car!
3. Type of driving --Bought the car last Feb. and drove 60 miles total to work and back. In August I got a position working out of my house so used it mainly for short runs (to the store and church was about it). Maybe that was a problem. Still, inexcusable?
4. Did NOT make runs to "many" dealerships. I purchased the car in a town approx 20 miles away. When a new dearlership opened up in the town where I live I took it there (had taken in there before when a power window switch burnt out and when I filled my car up with gas once while it was running, I had some indicator light stay on. Both no big deals). I called the dealership, told him about the blue smoke on start-up, brought the car in. He pulled off the oil cap, told me it was sludge, would cost me between $5-7500. to repair, and suggested I sell it! No kidding! A while later, I did called the dealership I purchased the car from. However, after telling a Service Rep. of my problem over the phone I could actually hear the animosity in her voice so just didn't bother taking the car in. It was suggested I call the District Sales Rep. He had the dealership remove the valve cover just to confirm it. I did call Customer "No-Service" and it was obvious they weren't going to assist.
5. I am a mature adult who takes responsibility for my actions and will even say I'm sorry when I've done something wrong. I cannot, for the life of me, accept responsibility for this....especially when no-one at the dealership asked for receipts (at a minimum)!
6. I cannot come to any other conclusion than the dealership didn't want to be bothered with me and Lexus/Toyota is trying to hide something. I found something else interesting here. Whenever I got my car serviced at the dealership I received a survey to fill out. The last time I received the usual letter informing me that I will be receiving a survey and if I had a problem to please call the service manager to inform him before I get the survey. I NEVER GOT THE SURVEY!
7. If there are other reasons for sludge build up I have not heard them. I've only heard that it has something to do with not enough oil changes, bad oil, or bad filter. I've had the oil changed in a timely manner (as stated above) and I cannot take responsibility for the oil or filter (know it was Halvoline oil). Guess we could sue everybody, huh?
8. No leasing here. I paid CASH for this car and planned on keeping it at least 10 years as I've done in the past.
9. Did not know that using other manufacturer's parts would void the warranty! Wonder if that's the case with other car dealers. I did ask this of Infiniti when I bought my new car. They told me to keep receipts with dates and mileage. I hope I don't have to go there again.
Service Dept. told me especially in V6's so I don't know about V4's. Although my 1988 Camry was a V4 and ran like a top. Those were the good old days, I guess.
Have never logged on to the Complaint Station but will check it out.
210delray -- Kiss your Toyota Service Provider!
Listen guys....I have no reason to lie here. I am not a troublemaker with an axe to grind (although they did hurt my feelings),
Honestly they never asked to see my receipts and told me to take it up with the oil changer. The oil did look good to me when I checked it out so that's all I've got.
Maybe there's a corrolation between those short trips I started taking and this problem. I'll keep that in mind with my new car and be sure to change the oil every 3,000/3 months. Is that what you suggest?
When all is said and done, I still can't swallow that Lexus took no action to determine the cause.
1. What is (was) the recommended interval for oil changes with your Lexus. If it listed more than 1 option (i.e. a more frequent interval for driving under harsh conditions) what is it?
2. When you had the oil changed did you physically see the mechanics change the oil AND filter?
3. You mentioned going over 5,000 miles at least 1X before changing the oil. How many miles were put on the car between the next oil changes.
4. How many oil changes did you have totally before realizing there was a sludge problem?
5. Did you consider bringing the car to another dealer for a 2nd opinion?
6. Why didn't you choose to pursue arbitration/litigation? It makes sense that if you had valid receipts AND changed the oil as specified in the owners manual that you would have a case.
I agree, you should not have to use only Lexus/Toyota parts and services in order to keep the warranty-it just seems odd that they would turn their heads so blatantly, refuse to repair the car under warranty, and that you would accept thier advise to sell the car so easily>>
"Dbauman. Are you aware that your Lexus has a specific design defect that causes 43% of the accidents you're likely to be in occur on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday?"
Combined with her statements about not looking for a lawsuit, while also expressing disdain for discussing sludge in anything other than Toyota's engines, she has lost all credibility, at least as far as I am concerned.
I agree that you, having taken your vehicle for oil changes on a regular basis, should not have to automatically assume responsibility for sludge in your engine.
Sludge occurs in all internal combustion engines. It is what happens to oil over time. The way to keep it from collecting is to periodically replace it with new oil. Certain driving conditions can accelerate the problem. Short trips for example.
So the only real question is "How often do I change?". It is generally felt that $3k miles is often enough for virtually any kind of driving condition the typical driver is likely to go through. To go longer can still be ok, if the conditions warrant it.
The reason Lexus didn't want to be responsible for sludge in your vehicle is that they believe, as does almost everyone else here, that sludge deposits are a result of improper oil changes. Since you didn't have your oil changed with them, they shouldn't bear the responsibility of repairing it. Since you didn't change your own oil, the place you had your oil changed at should have been confronted with your problem.
What would $5k to $7500 have bought you in repairing a sludge problem? A new engine? Other than blue smoke, was there any mechanical defect with your engine? I think for half that I would have been changing my oil every 500 miles for the next 50000 miles to see if I could slowly scrub the sludge away...
I would have put a commercial flushing agent in the oil and followed the directions, like letting the car idle for fifteen minutes or whatever.
I would then change the oil and filter 1000 miles later and repeat this process two or three times.
I do remember back in the "old days" heraring from veteran mechanics that using pariffin based oils such as Pennzoil, Quaker State and Valvoline would gum up an engine.
In another forum I told a story that I will repeat here.
Back in the late sixties, as a youngster, I worked part time in a gas station. This station happened to employ one of the BEST mechanics I ever met. He taught me a great deal.
He hated Pennzoil.
He told about how as a young guy, he had worked at a Cadillac dealership. At that time, they would offer the customers a choice between Pennzoil and Havoline. They would then notate that preference on the customers chart and would use that brand whenever the car was serviced.
He said that the 50,000 mile service involved pulling the oil pan and cleaning it. He said that the Havoline engines could be wiped clean with a shop rag while the Pennzoil engines had two inches of sludge that required a putty knife to remove!
He said that the Havoline engines seldom needed work while the Pennzoil engines needed a rebuild before 80,000 miles.
Now...that was a long time ago, and oil has come a long way. Still, I won't use a paraffin based oil!
Oh...don't confuse Havoline, a Texaco product with Vavoline, big difference.
For what it's worth...
oh - dbauman -
What ever happened with your car? Did you have it repaired or just let it continue to smoke. I get the impression that you started to make complaints but did not pursue them. As, discussed above (in a left handed sort of way) sometimes having your attorney write them a letter on his letterhead gets their attention. I make this suggestion only on your promise not to make a career of this if it works, but I think that you will probably have some success in pursuing it farther with Lexus. You just have to go up through the chain till you get to someone with authority to spend that kind of money....but do it in writing, certified, and specifically request written replies.
1. I really don't recall the intervals of oil changes suggested by Lexus (the manual went with the car when I traded it in) but I recall 5,000 being KEY so I tried to stick with it.
2. Did not watch mechanics change the oil or filters. Just checked afterwards.
3. Got the oil changed by Lexus at 6K (bought the car with 5K on it), got it changed again at 11,336, then 16400....then started having the smoking problems so took it back to the oil changer and he changed it again at 17200. Wonder what happened during those first 5K miles.
4. 4 oil changes total for me.
5. As mentioned, I did call another dealership but got "push-back" on the phone so didn't bother taking the car in.
6. May sound really DUMB but after considering the Lemon Law, I never considered suing them. They kept telling me to go back to the oil changer so I thought it would be a matter of my proving the oil changer didn't do their job and that would be near impossible. Guess now I'm learning it would have been Lexus' problem in proving they didn't didn't do it. Still not sure yet?!
I did go to Pep Boys and a few other guys for advise. Even have the Engine Flush in my Infiniti trunk that I need to return to them. I was going to go that path.... Flush, change oil, and do it again but everyone I spoke to thought it would be a waste of time and money. Lexus service provider scared me with the notion of bits of oil plugging up some filter screen or something. Maybe I should have tried it. Was also afraid that if I'd do anything like this I would have really messed up the warranty. Guess it didn't matter at that point.
BBLAHA, you say "Since you didn't have your oil changed with them, they shouldn't bear the responsibility of repairing it". True if that's the real cause of my problem. Not sure we determined the cause here. Also, if that's the case I would think that they would document that and state the warranty would be voided if lubricants are not supplied by Lexus.
$5-7500 would not have bought me a new engine. That would have cost $18,000. This price included removing the engine and cleaning it. Also replacing the head gaskets. They did come back with a 2nd quote after removing the head gasket -- $1900. This would have involved replacing the head gaskets, cleaning the oil pan and flushing the system but there would be no guarantee and there would still be the possibility of smoking.
Wondered why I should fight this. I put $3700. out an got a new Infiniti. 2 years newer with more gadgets. I know it doesn't have the Toyota name (if that matters much anymore) but I'm hoping it will last me my 10 years or more.
Will not use Quick Lube anymore (used them with my Camry and Celica) but DID NOT use them with the Lexus. As mentioned, don't know if I should mentioned names, but the place I did take the car to has a reputable name and the guys were older and experienced "looking". Don't laugh! They also mentioned sludge when I brought the car back for the last time.
Bought the Lexus new from the dealership.... now it did have 5K miles on it so whatever the dealership did to it before I got it is another story. May have been a misused demo!
Funny and scary thing you may want to know...... when I traded it in, the Infiniti dealership didn't ask me a thing about it. They opened the 4 doors and looked inside for signs of an accident, checked the mileage and made me an offer. Watch out for those used cars!
Guess I could've kept the car, tried flushing it and living with it, but no-one wanted to ride down the street with me. We felt like it was a seizing engine waiting to happen and I didn't want to keep a car and be leery whenever I traveled with my 2 kids (be it down the street to church or schools). Wondered what kind of trade-in $$ I would get for it then.
And.... where is my Lexus survey?? It's been over a month since I've had service (if that's what you'd like to call it).
Please bear with me here...I do have quite a bit of experience that I won't bore anyone with.
dbauman2 sounds like a upfront, honest person. I REALLY want to believe everything he/she has said.
HOWEVER, there is NO WAY any engine could be sludged up at 16,000 miles! I don't care if the worst oil was used and never changed.
I missed that part earlier...sorry!
I'm not trying to flame anybody here...but...something is NOT right!!
I'll cry FOUL!
I have to wonder:
1. How was the car handled during its first 5K miles?
2. Was the oil-change servicer negligent in some way?
3. After the car was taken out of daily long-distance commuting in August, how many miles was it driven per day, and how many times per week? Short-trip driving is a severe service condition, and 5K oil changes may not be often enough.
Again, when my '97 Camry 4-cylinder started blowing blue smoke on start-up and I called the local Toyota dealership about it, I was told was that they would check for sludge first (without any prompting on my part).
The irony of the whole thing is that you have "dbauman2", who had a legitimate sludge problem, simply throw in the towel and sell the car-and then you have the "cblakes" of the world, who DON'T have sludge but are fired-up to find as many problems as possible and put up a big stink.
Maybe the reason was the short driving distances I made. Here's how that went: If the weather was nice, we'd walk, but if it was cold, I'd warm up the car (somewhat, I admit) and drive my son to school (less than a mile away) about 7:30am. So did this a couple times a week. Would take my other son to preschool 3 times a week at 9:15am. That school is about 3 miles from home. Would pick him up at 12:30 and the other guy at 2:30 (in bad weather). I didn't always make the trip with the preschooler (car pooled). Took the car to church on Sundays (about 2 miles from home). Usually drove my van to the grocery store or on major trips so that would really be about it. Did go to Florida once with it (from Georgia).
Looking back, I guess I should have changed it every 3K miles. Is that in the manual? I'll be sure to do that with my Infiniti. (Still hard to swallow a Toyota doing this when I had such good luck with my others and have really never heard anything bad about the cars).
To reiterate, I purchased the car NEW from the dealership so there was no "previous" owner. God only knows how the dealership took care of the car during those first 5K miles.
I never accussed you of lying but just don't understand. This defies logic.
Delray, There is really no way that I can think of to abuse a car in 5000 miles in such a way to cause this problem.
And, the estimate...5000-7000 dollars to clean the engine????!!!
It seems like this would be a one day job for a good mechanic and wouldn't involve any parts except for some gaskets.
Maybe I'm in the wrong business!
That said, it seems that dbauman2's very short trip driving likely contributed to the problem. This is in line with other posters in edmunds and elsewhere (where enough detail was given).
But Toyota does itself no favors by not recommending shorter oil change intervals.
In my '97 Toyota maintenance booklet (which applies to the entire Toyota product line, including pickups, utilities, and the Previa van), it says the normal oil change interval is 6 months or 7500 miles. "Special service conditions" -- short-trip driving IN FREEZING WEATHER, dusty roads, car-top carriers, extensive idling as in door-to-door delivery -- require 4 month or 5000-mile oil change intervals. Only turbocharged engines require shorter intervals -- 4 months/5000 miles for normal service and 2 months/2500 miles for "special service conditions."
I've seen the 2000 model year maintenance manual, and it gives the SAME recommendations. Why no mention of shorter change intervals in ANY kind of short-trip driving??? It might save themselves (Toyota) and their customers a lot of grief!
By the way, K. Lee has an informative follow-up on www.thecomplaintstation.com regarding the sludge problem (it's dated 1/14/01; look under "T" then "toyota").
No. Lexus can't void your warranty simply becuase you didn't have your oil changes performed by Lexus; they would have to offer you free oil changes to do that.
What I'm saying is that sludge is a result of improper oil maintenance. If you have sludge, the problem should be taken up with whatever place changes your oil. If they (your oil changer) had forgotten to replace your drain plug and you burned up your engine on the way home, would it be appropriate to go to Lexus and demand a new engine because its still under warranty?
I'm sorry, but something is rotten in Denmark. $18,000 for a new engine!?! On a $30,000 car?!? $5,000 to remove sludge?!?
Either you are pulling our leg our Lexus was pulling yours. Something about this rings false.
We live in Canada, but I believe both US and CDN manuals are the same--except ours are in metric units.
Here's what the Service Estimate says: "The vehicle is blowing white smoke out of the exhaust. Etch found evidence of sludge build up on the engine. Sludge develops when the oil is not changed on a regular basic. This can lead to oil consumption and leaks, smoking at startup, and in extreme cases, premature engine failure. Engine failures due to lack of required maintenance are not covered by the Lexus new vehicle limited warranty. We recommend that the vehicle be serviced on a more frequent basis to prevent any further sludge build up. Please see you consultant for recommended service intervals and advice on treatment of your vehicles current condition" (he also told me I may want to sell the car). "Estimate for repairs will be from $5000. to $7500.00 which will be determined once heads are removed." He told me it would take approx. 20 hours. Another truth!
Second time around it went like this: "There is smoke coming out of the exhaust when vehicle is first started. As a one time goodwill as per D.O.M. we will remove the front valve cover and check for sludge. After removing of the front valve cover there is sludge in the engine. Customer viewed sludge with Etch #123. We offered to remove the value covers, clean the top end, clean the oil pan, and pick up screen and replace the value covers. No warranty that it would stop smoking from exhaust. Estimate $1900.00 plus tax."
The prices I'm quoting are right from the Lexus Service [non-permissible content removed]. Manager. Guess he was really pulling my leg.... hard! Please check prices with your local dealer.
I can't really comment on Pilot13's technical correctness of the job of oil. I don't hot rod, but do make plenty of short trips and the weather gets cold here. However, he is stating the best route to follow for oil change intervals is 3 months/3000 miles. Don't know if I should buy that for every situation (mine.... most definitely) and haven't seen it documented.
Noticed a quote in a letter to Toyota by Drew 1/11/01 on thecomplaintstation.com. It could have been written by me. It said "There are even some complaints from owners whose engine
has sludge up at less then 10,000 miles. To find these do a search using “the hidden lemon” and “ Toyota sludge” and “complaint station”.
http://www.thecomplaintstation.com/t/toyota_toc.htm#000000ba ". So maybe 18,000 isn't that far out there!
I don't know who's to blame here. If the oil plug fell out, that would be obvious. I read the note from K.Lee and can't talk to all his comments (I'm not a lawyer
Big problem with companies is to "circle the wagons" instead of showing confidence and pride in their product and putting the customer first. Customer Satisfaction will increase revenue in the long run.
You bought an abused car. A car is not "New" if it has 5000 miles on it. It was probably a dealer demo. That means the worst kind of miles. Lots of short trips, all sorts of different people "seeing what she can do", rabbit starts and testing the ABS, and the like. I bet it's first oil change was the one at 6,000. Damage may have already been done by then.
Fact is, they sold you damaged goods and then refused to fix it under warranty claiming that it was you that damaged it.
And you let them. You would have been better off buying a certified pre-owned one that has to go through specific checks - that would have noted poor oil condition.
Anyway, buying a demo is like buying a used rental: Bad idea - always.
Also, Isell has a point: Even if changed infrequently, and abused, enough sludge to cause smoking at 18,000 miles is almost impossible unless there is something else wrong with the car (bad PVC, broken ring, fouled plugs, bad injector, leaking engine gasket, etc..) My guess is your demo had one or more of the above before it ever had sludge in the oil.
HiC