Ford Focus ZX3 / SVT vs. Honda Civic Si / RSX

moparbad · December 2002

Thanks. The results are impressive for the Si. makes me sick to look at the picture of the Si being smashed though. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2376.html

bowke28 · December 2002

why save $2000 on a car and put it in life insurance if you won't get to see the money after you die?!?!
i'd rather survive than save money, thank you.

there are lots of people like you though...

one customer in particular, after i told him about the break-away motor, actually asked me "how much is that gonna cost me?"
i just rolled my eyes and said "less than your funeral"

anonymousposts · December 2002

mopar: You think seeing that SI being bashed up made you sick think about how I felt when my first SI got it's front end bashed up. I almost shed a tear when I went to the junkyard to take the pictures. But the car did exactly what is was supposed to do. The engine dropped down and back, airbags deployed and left no bruises (only 1 small mark on my arms where I was holding both hands on the wheel when they deployed), and even though the passenger side fender was pushed back into the passenger door both doors still opened, and the glass did not shatter. I was going probably about 45MPH when I hit the Grand Am that turned out in front of me. After looking at the pictures of how Grand AM's fare in side impact testing I'm just glad the woman's 8 year old daughter wasn't in the front passenger seat when I hit them.

vadp · December 2002

Congratualations to the Focus for making Car And Driver's 10Best list for the fourth year in a row!
Each and every year it has been in production.

anonymousposts · December 2002

Almost matches the Accord's 17 out of 20 years right? And the RSX has been named each of it's production years as well.

dzigit · December 2002

4 out of four. pretty good score if you ask me

hamproof · December 2002

I don't understand why can you accept the virtues of other cars? It is great Focus is named 10best. Competition is good. Honda needs to improve on their car further to entice the general buying public to keep buying their car. This is not like 5 years ago when buying a used Civic is a no brainer. Other car manufacturers are catching up/on par/exceeded Honda's quality while offering more car for the money. Isn't it great that Honda would be forced to do the same?

Instead of trying to find fault in another car to try to boost your own car, why not just concentrate on your car.

Personally story - I'm trying to loose weight (5'9" 165lbs). Ideally I would like to be at 150lbs. You don't see me hanging around people who are fatter than me to make myself feel better? Who cares if other people are fatter than me. I just care about myself.

Do I care if Focus has so many recalls?? I only care that the Si doesn't suffer the same. I don't praise my Si by saying the Focus is unsafe, unreliable,(insert what other comments you usually make). I criticize the Si so that Honda will make it better. Although it is not like Honda is reading this forum. If it is up to Honda and the greedy salesperson, they'll sell the Si for as much as they want. Fortunately Honda missed the mark and due to the lack luster sales coz' of better car offerings from competition, they are forced to sell it to me at $3460 below MSRP or $1800 below invoice. Do you seriously think Honda lowered the price coz' the bean counters believe they overpriced the car based on what they are offering?? Heck no! They had to do it coz' of competition. Other car makers are offering more for less money and looks like in US, only you and gee35coupe buy into the, Honda - must be good quality, mentality coz' there's so no one else buying the Si unless it is sold at $17k, $16k, $15k and $14k.

gee35coupe · December 2002

Was expecting to sell 15,000 of these cute lil hatchbacks. Hatches have pretty much left the U.S. because no one buys them. Had they brought over only 2500 to 5000 of them they wuold have all sold at MSRP like the coupe. Which incidentally only had 160hp just like the new SI. But everyone loved em.

We took advantage of the low prices also. i would not have bought a $19,000 SI. But as far as the Honda mentality...I don't think we are alone. I mean really, check any Honda board. We ain't alone.

hamproof · December 2002

I would swear you were the one who said it was wrong for Saab to abandon the hatchback style of the 93 a few months ago. There are only a select few who prefer the functionality of a hatch/wagon to the monstrous SUVs.

And I do believe anony would have bought the 02 Si for $19k coz' it is Honda afterall. For argument sake, if Honda sold 5000 of these in US and commanded $19k, I bet a pretty penny, you and anony would be first in line.

anonymousposts · December 2002

No, wouldn't have paid $19,000 for it. We were at the Honda dealer right before they came out and the dealer said MSRP would be $19,000. I said "guess I won't be buying a new SI" and I wouldn't have bought one no matter how limited production they were if I had to pay that much. I don't believe in paying more than $500 over invoice (preferably nothing over invoice or lower) for any car. Shortly thereafter I bought my 00 SI and drove it til the new SI's got cheap then I got a deal I couldn't refuse. Loved the 99-00 SI when it came out but I wasn't going to pay MSRP for one. When I bought my 99 Accord sedan I love the coupe but they wanted close to MSRP or above in the V6's case and I wasn't gonna pay it. Wanted a CL-S for a looooooooong time but the prices never dropped low enough before I lost interest. With the new Accord .. wanted one since they came out but wasn't gonna pay MSRP for it.

So yes I love Hondas. I am an admitted fanatic but that doesn't mean I will pay more than I should to own one. There are enough good used Honda's in the marketplace that I can always tide myself over with something else till what I want gets cheaper or until they make something else that catches my eye.

high_strung · January 2003

Listen, I've test driven both cars, and the SI is terrible. It is a complete ripoff, the SVT is a better car by a HUGE margin. The SI has aweful bodyroll in the corners, non-existent brake feel (very long stopping distances), lifeless power delivery, a cheap interior with a horrible stock stereo, and a poor set of wheels/tires. When I test drove the SI, it felt unstable on the freeway at any speed above 80MPH, it couldn't track a straight line if it's life (or my life) depended on it. I wouldn't pay more than $15K for that car. And it's ugly to boot.

I don't care what you say about Ford reliability, I would take the SVT Focus any day of the year over the SI. It is a better car in every conceiveable way. The standard feature list alone shames the overpriced SI, and the performance further shames it, badly. Ford must be applauded for putting out so much car for so little money.

For all of the Honda fanboys, the Honda execs are laughing all the way to the bank, with the suckers who pay WAY to much for that "Honda reliability". That is all they are selling, because when it boils down to it, they offer no other value in the SI.

rivertown · January 2003

LOL, you really don't need to pay more than 15K:

http://www.communityhonda.com/advertised_specials.htm

I haven't seen any real world info on SVT prices. What's the price, aside from all the sales BS?

anonymousposts · January 2003

I guess Ford should also be applauded for being able to produce an unreliable, recall-machine and still have people buy them. The real suckers and the people you should really feel sorry for are the people who own 2000+ Focus models which have brake problems, engine problems, electrical problems. Reliability is an option that I will always pay extra for. Who cares about 10 extra HP or 2" larger wheels when the car won't run long enough to get your money's worth?

vadp · January 2003

Honda fans can't compare two cars without bringing the first year Focus recalls (doesn't apply to the SVT Focus)history in the picture and making it sound like the whole Focus line will be affected until end of times.

anonymousposts · January 2003

Ford as a company isn't known for their durability or reliability. Why should we expect that to change in the 2 years the Focus has been out?

vadp · January 2003

me for arguing with you, I probably wouldn't accept that offer.
It's just too tiresome.
Congratulations. You won!!!
Take care.

rivertown · January 2003

"It's all in what you want."

If I were shopping reliability 1st, I wouldn't shop Ford.

If I were shopping performance 1st, I wouldn't shop Honda.

I think you get what you pay for, if you're lucky; and I think we're all pretty lucky these days.

rschaap · January 2003

I was able to get a left over 2002 SI for 16K, called the wife, told her I was going to do it. Went for a test drive... was really unimpressed in all ways. I was currently the owner of a GTI VR6. I was used to power, and had little expectations. I was still disappointed by the SI, the gear ratio is completely unpractical. I was on the highway around 65MPH, and the RPM's were way up there... The cockpit I did like, the cheezy japanese light show was alright too. The wheels were pathetic. Okay, I figured, it's 16K, it's not bad. It handled great. Incredible seats. I can get used to the stick. Figured I'd try a Focus though just for the hell of it, same price range - everyone loves them. Had NO expectations at all. They had a left over as well, an 18K base one (power and moonroof etc) that I wound up getting for 14K. The drive was better. I'm not talking about a SVT. ZX3. Feels peppier, better handling (SI felt every pot hole - with 15inchers too), all around I was floored. I got ABS and traction control too. The responsivenes could be improved easily with a cold air intake and Borla exhaust... it's a no brainer. The SI is a total failure to even be comparable to this. The Focus is a "fun economy car" and it's still better than the SI in my opinion.

rivertown · January 2003

An 18K Focus for 14K or a 19.5 K Si for 16K? Life just isn't fair, huh? Both strike me as good choices, and I hope you continue to like the Focus.

Especially after you spend some bucks on mods, I bet I can make you eat the 'no brainer' comment at trade-in time.

moparbad · January 2003

http://www.auto.com/industry/iwirk4_20030104.htm

Read the article that is linked above. After so many recalls and quality problems I predict the next redesign of the Focus will have a new name.

The current Focus just as well could be named the Ford Recall as that is the reputation it has earned. It will likely follow the Citation into extinction.

Too bad really. It handles well, the ergonomics are not bad, engines are decent, and there are many choices in options and body style to appeal to drivers old and young.

The SVT will outperform the Si in speed/handling. It is no match for Honda when it comes to quality of assembly and reliability or resale. That is why I am driving an Si.

I can handle a few quality problems, the Focus will never make my list of potential purchases new or used due to it's absolutely terrible reputation. Recall, recall, recall. More than three times a loser.

vadp · January 2003

That's it. LOL
I don't know if the NA american Focus will be renamed. May be if the articles like that continure to BS the car.
The Euro Focus was awarded the BEST quality in the group among 1-3 year old cars.
Same design.
Because of the Firestone fiasco Ford overplayed the recall game and became overly recall happy.
A recall for the B-pillar padding - piece of foam.
A recall for the back-seat hinge that dosn't fold the rear seat properly.
A recall just to check the manufacturing dates of the windshield wiper motor.
A recall to change the positioning for the battery cables (here we have the underhood fire rumors)
A recall to install a protective ring for a rear wheel bearing that can get contaminated in snow belt states (here we have the falling off wheels rumors).
BTW all the cars have first year recalls/tsb's while being launched.
the 2001 Civic had recalls, the BMW X5 and the 7-series have recalls, in most cases more serious than in the Focus case.
Yet nobody mentions those.
Nobody wants to rename the X5, nobody wants to rename the Mercedes ML, which was plaqued with problems for many years after its introduction.

moparbad · January 2003

The Focus sold in Euope has better interior and materials and better engine options. It has better quality. It is not assembled by in the same factory. Heck, it is not even assembled in the same continent. Most important the European Focus does not suffer the quality problems that the US one does and it's wheels do not fall off.
Did I fail to mention that the Focus we are discussing is the one that can be purchased in North America. Give up the Euro Focus worship, it is not relevant.

Given the choice of driving a Focus SVT or Civic Si for a day or a week and I would choose the SVT.
If I have to choose one to own then keep the Focus away from me.

Focus problems are not BS, they are reality. Or do you think Ford recalls the Focus every couple of months for entertainment value?

Focus is a 10 best on Car and Driver list. It also is on the top 10 for recalls. I almost feel sorry for Ford. Good design and poor execution.

moparbad · January 2003

http://autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=reviews&content_code=01524043&Search_Type=STD&Search_ID=877579&record=17

quote-While the car wears a Focus nameplate, it seemed to be made of better stuff than the Focus on sale at your local Ford dealer. -end quote

My point exactly. Better off to buy a Civic Si or other Civic than drive a ZX3.

rschaap · January 2003

Believe me, their reliability is ONE issue. And when my last car was 24K, and full of repairs - it's still a bargain. I drive a car that I enjoy EVERY DAY, and got ABS and traction control out of it, and it's still 2K less than the SI. You're merely emphasizing my point by bringing up reliability. It's your only argument. And that's a maybe - I may not have any reliability issues... that's why Honda really disappoints with the SI. We ALL had huge expectations. The SVT with 6 speed, leather, 17" rims, isn't even close to an argument. Other than possible reliability issues with the Focus... or the "entire" ford line.

rschaap · January 2003

Your posts after reading this article are silly. There are a bevy of other models sold in Europe. Americans are not known for a love of hatchbacks or fuel economy. For years, europe has been able to enjoy a completely different line of cars. The Focus itself came from there. To assume any quality on either side of the Atlantic is a stretch at best. Have you ever seen the types of economy cars offered in Japan?

vadp · January 2003

First of all, here is the full context:
The TDCi wore a Ghia badge, meaning it was of a high trim level, but the quality of the materials and the fit-and-finish of the vehicle were superbbetter than anything wed seen before in a U.S. Focus. And dont get us wrong, we really like the U.S. Focus. With its base 2.0-liter, inline four Zetec engine developing 130 hp and 127 lb-ft, the car delivers a lot of bang for its roughly $15,000 base price.

High trim level, right?

The Euro Focus has different high trims unlike the ZX3, which is being sold only in the basic one, right?

The Euro Focus has more engines options, and the American car - just one, being the best and more powerfull of them 2.0L, right?

And BTW, do you really believe that all the magazines know their stuff?
Those jockers in the article can't even get the engine horsepower/torgue ratings correct.
They're quoting the Euro numbers for the ZX3.
Considering that the car has been on the market for 3 model years, those little mistakes clearly show how much knowledge they have about the car.
Why don't you tell me the correct numbers if you like to research the Focus so much.
And don't feel sorry for Ford. Far more '02 Civics Si than '02 SVTF are still sitting at the dealerships.
Honda might consider renaming it in the Civic Sigh.

rivertown · January 2003

Well, LOL, I like driving my new Si everyday. Solid as a rock, smooth as glass, and even driving break-in I haven't seen a Focus yet I couldn't beat. To be fair, I haven't seen a SVT yet.

rschaap & vadp, how come you guys are so hot on the SVT and don't have one?

And while we're here, it's okay with me if you want to weight reliability and resale less than I do. We're all guessing, anyhow, based on history. Having had an Si that depreciated less than 3K in 3.5 years and 42K miles, I'm tickled pink to go Si again.

anonymousposts · January 2003

While the SVT may have a marginal performance advantage over the SI the SI has a significant performance advantage over a ZX3. The SI is worth more than both of them regardless of performance and options because the SI has one thing that neither Focus will be able to touch .. quality and excellent word of mouth. And the ZX3 isn't exactly a hot seller or Ford wouldn't offer 0.0%.

rivertown · January 2003

The Si isn't selling like hotcakes, either; and Honda was offering 1.9% for 5 years.

I agree, though, the Honda rep counts for a whole lot; and it's justified in my experience.

Ain't it just awful to be car shopping in this market?

anonymousposts · January 2003

Honda has a loyal owner in my as long as their products prove to be as reliable as my past experience has shown them to be. The SI isn't a hot seller, but that means good deals for people like me and you who can get past the wheel size and see what is a more refined and more well-built car.

rivertown · January 2003

I'm hoping like heck to avoid big wheel fever - taking my zinc, using insect repellant, and washing my hands a lot.

LOL!

LOL!

hamproof · January 2003

I took a roadtrip to Atlanta recently (total RT 1500miles) and while I enjoyed driving the car around the winding roads, but I never felt the car was rock solid. Rock solid was what I felt when I drove my previous A4. But that car was heavier and I opted for sports package (if you call it that). I wouldn't call the Si rock solid coz' it wasn't. Maybe compared to some lesser car it is. But I guess it all depends on what you are used to.

Smooth as glass?? If you call revving at 5500 RPM going at 90-95mph w/ the wind howling like mad smooth as glass. I can't even hear the engine w/ all the wind noise.

And I must not be driving the same car as you and anony. My car has this annoying squeek whenever I go over uneven roads. Definitely plastic rubbing sound. I was getting squeeks all over the car but now only the left side is persistent.

As far as what Honda fans think of the Si, I can tell you the general public do not share the same view. But it doesn't matter to me. I wanted a cheap car that will be my beater for years to come and looks like the Si will serve this purpose.

moparbad · January 2003

How many SVT Focus did Ford sell in 2002.
I believe roughly 15,000 Si were imported by Honda.
Sales numbers do not change quality, performance or any other attribute except for price and availability.
I can go to nearly any Honda dealer and buy a Si. It is available. None of the Ford dealers in my area have a SVT Focus. My local Ford dealer had an SVT Focus earlier this year and I test drove it. It was impressive. It is the only one that they sold.
If Honda would have only imported 2,000 Si they would have sold every one at MSRP.
My point is that you can not say a car is good or bad simply based on sales.

Ford acknowledges that Focus has quality issues and they acknowledge that they have many problems with the union at the Focus assembly plant. Seems that everyone but a couple of people here on this board understand that Focus is outstanding in the number of quality failures it has.

rivertown · January 2003

Hi, Ham

I see where you're coming from, and I think you're right. To be fair here, comparing an Si to an A4 is about the same as comparing an Si to an Echo or a low end Mirage; the price differentials are roughly equivalent. My take is that to even compare an Si with an A4 speaks incredibly well of the Si.

It sounds like your Si is improving, squeek-wise. That's a good thing.

Revs? I think a six speed would be very desirable for x-way driving. It helps me to remember, though, that similar engines to ours are redlined much higher in the RSX-S and S2000. Wind noise? Doesn't surprise me that the Si is noisier at autobahn speeds than an A4. My '02 is a little quieter than my '99, and I'm pretty satisfied.

General public? The general public didn't 'get' my '99 Si for a couple of years, either, and has seemed pretty happy at various times with minivans and SUV's. I can't say that I've ever shared popular, mainstream tastes.

All in all, I'm satisfied. LOL, I figure it would be miraculous if I were to spend 1/2 again or twice as much and end up 1/2 again or twice as satisfied.

vadp · January 2003

I see what you're saying.
The SVT's vehicles were always rare and in short supply.
The majority of the buying public actually had and still have no idea for the most part, what those letters stand for.
Ford has sold around 5,000 of the '02 SVT Focuses during its first year in production.
It proved to be popular and now Ford is increasing production and planning on offering 3 and 5-door SVT versions.
The funny thing is that decision has generated an outcry amongst the current SVT owners, because with the increased production numbers they're gonna loose their status as the owners of a "rare" vehicle.
And in Europe the SVT Focuses are being sold as Focuses ST170. They even expanded their model line to include an ST170 wagon. I would never believe that a wagon could be made to look so sporty.
Now back to the Si's. The previous gen was selling like hotcakes. The model was running for years in the Honda line and proved to be enormously popular. It's pretty much a cult car among the Civic enthusiast community.
With the new gen, Honda did everything it could to bring that model back to Earth.
And the sales numbers plummeted accordingly.

rivertown · January 2003

The previous gen Si was available in '99 and '00 model years. When I bought mine (3/99) not many people around here 'got' what they were; I had my choice of colors.

So, somebody actually buying a car would need to pay what for a SVT? 2-2.5K more than an Si?

hamproof · January 2003

I also think competion was less in 99/00. Not too many cars have 160HP though w/ puny torque numbers. Maybe the older Sentra SE-R (150??) or GTi with 150HP (non-chipped 1.8T). So, it stands to reason why a lot of people bought the 99/00 Si and it comes as a coupe to boot.

Fast forward 2-3 years and competition have caught up w/ Honda. And they are offering more car for the money though some would argue the legendary Honda reliability and resale value. The former maybe but I believe the general public is paying less and less attention to it coz' styling and performance numbers are probably tops now. As much as I like the Si styling, there are more who don't. Resale value?? Only uninformed buyers would pay $14k for a used 99/00 Si. That's just dumb. Never in my car shopping years (which is less than 10 years) have I seen a Honda sold for so much below invoice (02 Si). The only time I saw it was when the Accord changeover in 97/98 (?). You could easily get $1-$1.5k below invoice then. We are talking about an 02 Si invoicing at $17.8k being sold for $14-$14.5k. But I'm sure years down the road, some sucker will still pay $15k for a used 02/03 Si.

As far as how much an SVT cost, I'm sure the average price is similar to the Si. We look at the lowest price of the Si ($14-14.5k) and compare it to the average selling price of the SVT w/ rebates ($16k??). I'm sure there's someone who got the SVT for $14-$15k as well.

moparbad · January 2003

The previous Civic Si hatchback which was last sold in 1995 was never present in great numbers on dealer lots. It only became very popular in later years when people on west coast favored it for modifying. Hondas mistake was importing too many of the current Si and not having wheels, tires and styling that appeal to the current youth import speed market. 17" wheels, better audio system and body styling like the Civic TypeR would have the current Si selling very well even with "only" 160 hp.

The current Si may never reach the popularity of the previous hatch Si since the engine is difficult to mod.

rivertown · January 2003

So, there's a car out there one can really buy for 15K (or even 16K) you'd rather have than an Si?

If your answer is yes, let's have some proof of price first. Here's mine: http://www.communityhonda.com/New-Car-Specials.htm

I wouldn't argue with anybody's taste, but facts are another matter. Even at Si pricing (of which there's no proof, yet - hint, hint), I wouldn't go SVT over Si on reliability/resale grounds alone; that's my taste, though.

Honda has mis-marketed the Si? Rings true to me. The Si would sell better in Type-R trim? Maybe, maybe not; depends on price, I figure. Would sell better in Type-R trim at 15K? Well yeah, duh.

moparbad · January 2003

For $19460 MSRP w/o side airbags the Si should have larger wheels, better stereo, body kit similar to TypeR. How much would this cost Honda per car? $500? $400? Surely would cost less than discounting the Si $4400. As is it stands I feel I got a bargain at $16K.

moparbad · January 2003

I priced out a SVT 3 door with sunroof and it rang up to $19,695. Ford must have raised the price for 2003.

rivertown · January 2003

I agree, wholeheartedly - the US, HB Si is an unqualified bargain at 16K.

If Honda offered a Type R look-a-like at an SVT price? Seems like a great marketing move to me. LOL, if Honda were to produce a bunch of 'em and price 'em at 18K, Ford would have to stick to trucks.

Marketing types - humph! Ford did the same thing with the '89 5.0 Stang; took a great value and priced it out of contention. It'll be interesting to see how many of those 19.7K SVT's actually sell in this market; I wouldn't even go test one, knowing that's the purchase price. An SVT at 19+K looks more ridiculous to me than an Si at 19+K.

anonymousposts · January 2003

I have no problem with the SI's high revs on the highway. It's quiet and it still has power. It's also still smooth thanks in part to the balance shafts. I had a 01 Mazda Protege ES and that thing was not fun on the highway. Suspension was great but at higher RPM the engine would run out of power and it was buzzy to boot. While the SI may not be smooth if you compare it to a LS430 or something, it is pretty darn smooth for what it is and how short the gearing is.

vadp · January 2003

While some noisy media outlets(those which have no understanding in cars)still bitching about the N.A. Focus recalls, the other more serious publications are quietly giving the car an award after award, basing their conclusions on some other (must be scientific data).

Here are Polk Automotive Loyalty Award winners - 2002 Model year.

Ford Focus - a customer loyalty award winner in the small car category for the second time in the row.

P.S. Awards are based on actual consumer transactions, with over 5 million household records per year being analyzed to determine the winners. It is based on the census of information obtained from state registration and lease transaction information.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/030107-5.htm

rivertown · January 2003

LOL, same study shows highest manufacturer loyalty going to GM and highest make loyalty going to Ford. Yum, yum! I think I'll trade for a Cavalier or a Focus, paying extra if I have to.

NOT!

vadp · January 2003

rivertown · January 2003

I don't think it's a conspiracy. I dunno what's counted as 'loyalty'. Repeat buyers of the same manufacturer, line, or model? Whatever it is, it's not enough to induce me to buy GM or Ford.

moparbad · January 2003

shiniest penny in the well. Could the loyal Focus buyers possibly be the same loyal purchasers of lottery tickets? You can't lose if you don't play.
Just kidding the Focus owners a little bit.

hamproof · January 2003

I priced out an 03 Civic Si w/ side airbag at $18,249 using my zipcode on carsdirect. So, comparing to the 03 SVT it ain't that big of a difference since your qoute for the 03 Focus SVT is probably MSRP.

I don't think you can get an accurate qoute for SVTs online. Reliable numbers are probably obtainable at the dealerships and w/ the increased rebates Ford is giving now who knows what the true price of the car is.

But for me, I'll never buy a Ford product. Let it be a Volvo, Jaguar, Aston Martin (as if I can afford a Vanquish), Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda or whatever else they acquire in the future. Or even rent a Hertz car. I've nothing against their car. I've a personal vendetta towards their employees and they are not going to get even an extra $0.00001 cent from me in their bonus.

moparbad · January 2003

Rebates do not apply to the SVT. It is listed as excluded from rebates and it is listed as excluded from low finance rates from Ford. Since no other information is available on SVT I will have to use MSRP for comparison.
The low prices for Si in Chicago area are $16,800 for 2003 and $14,995 for 20002.
Si is still the bargain.

Ford Focus ZX3 / SVT vs. Honda Civic Si / RSX

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