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Ford Focus ZX3 / SVT vs. Honda Civic Si / RSX
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Comments
i'd rather survive than save money, thank you.
there are lots of people like you though...
one customer in particular, after i told him about the break-away motor, actually asked me "how much is that gonna cost me?"
i just rolled my eyes and said "less than your funeral"
Each and every year it has been in production.
Instead of trying to find fault in another car to try to boost your own car, why not just concentrate on your car.
Personally story - I'm trying to loose weight (5'9" 165lbs). Ideally I would like to be at 150lbs. You don't see me hanging around people who are fatter than me to make myself feel better? Who cares if other people are fatter than me. I just care about myself.
Do I care if Focus has so many recalls?? I only care that the Si doesn't suffer the same. I don't praise my Si by saying the Focus is unsafe, unreliable,(insert what other comments you usually make). I criticize the Si so that Honda will make it better. Although it is not like Honda is reading this forum. If it is up to Honda and the greedy salesperson, they'll sell the Si for as much as they want. Fortunately Honda missed the mark and due to the lack luster sales coz' of better car offerings from competition, they are forced to sell it to me at $3460 below MSRP or $1800 below invoice. Do you seriously think Honda lowered the price coz' the bean counters believe they overpriced the car based on what they are offering?? Heck no! They had to do it coz' of competition. Other car makers are offering more for less money and looks like in US, only you and gee35coupe buy into the, Honda - must be good quality, mentality coz' there's so no one else buying the Si unless it is sold at $17k, $16k, $15k and $14k.
We took advantage of the low prices also. i would not have bought a $19,000 SI. But as far as the Honda mentality...I don't think we are alone. I mean really, check any Honda board. We ain't alone.
And I do believe anony would have bought the 02 Si for $19k coz' it is Honda afterall. For argument sake, if Honda sold 5000 of these in US and commanded $19k, I bet a pretty penny, you and anony would be first in line.
So yes I love Hondas. I am an admitted fanatic but that doesn't mean I will pay more than I should to own one. There are enough good used Honda's in the marketplace that I can always tide myself over with something else till what I want gets cheaper or until they make something else that catches my eye.
I don't care what you say about Ford reliability, I would take the SVT Focus any day of the year over the SI. It is a better car in every conceiveable way. The standard feature list alone shames the overpriced SI, and the performance further shames it, badly. Ford must be applauded for putting out so much car for so little money.
For all of the Honda fanboys, the Honda execs are laughing all the way to the bank, with the suckers who pay WAY to much for that "Honda reliability". That is all they are selling, because when it boils down to it, they offer no other value in the SI.
http://www.communityhonda.com/advertised_specials.htm
I haven't seen any real world info on SVT prices. What's the price, aside from all the sales BS?
It's just too tiresome.
Congratulations. You won!!!
Take care.
If I were shopping reliability 1st, I wouldn't shop Ford.
If I were shopping performance 1st, I wouldn't shop Honda.
I think you get what you pay for, if you're lucky; and I think we're all pretty lucky these days.
Especially after you spend some bucks on mods, I bet I can make you eat the 'no brainer' comment at trade-in time.
Read the article that is linked above. After so many recalls and quality problems I predict the next redesign of the Focus will have a new name.
The current Focus just as well could be named the Ford Recall as that is the reputation it has earned. It will likely follow the Citation into extinction.
Too bad really. It handles well, the ergonomics are not bad, engines are decent, and there are many choices in options and body style to appeal to drivers old and young.
The SVT will outperform the Si in speed/handling. It is no match for Honda when it comes to quality of assembly and reliability or resale. That is why I am driving an Si.
I can handle a few quality problems, the Focus will never make my list of potential purchases new or used due to it's absolutely terrible reputation. Recall, recall, recall. More than three times a loser.
I don't know if the NA american Focus will be renamed. May be if the articles like that continure to BS the car.
The Euro Focus was awarded the BEST quality in the group among 1-3 year old cars.
Same design.
Because of the Firestone fiasco Ford overplayed the recall game and became overly recall happy.
A recall for the B-pillar padding - piece of foam.
A recall for the back-seat hinge that dosn't fold the rear seat properly.
A recall just to check the manufacturing dates of the windshield wiper motor.
A recall to change the positioning for the battery cables (here we have the underhood fire rumors)
A recall to install a protective ring for a rear wheel bearing that can get contaminated in snow belt states (here we have the falling off wheels rumors).
BTW all the cars have first year recalls/tsb's while being launched.
the 2001 Civic had recalls, the BMW X5 and the 7-series have recalls, in most cases more serious than in the Focus case.
Yet nobody mentions those.
Nobody wants to rename the X5, nobody wants to rename the Mercedes ML, which was plaqued with problems for many years after its introduction.
Did I fail to mention that the Focus we are discussing is the one that can be purchased in North America. Give up the Euro Focus worship, it is not relevant.
Given the choice of driving a Focus SVT or Civic Si for a day or a week and I would choose the SVT.
If I have to choose one to own then keep the Focus away from me.
Focus problems are not BS, they are reality. Or do you think Ford recalls the Focus every couple of months for entertainment value?
Focus is a 10 best on Car and Driver list. It also is on the top 10 for recalls. I almost feel sorry for Ford. Good design and poor execution.
quote-While the car wears a Focus nameplate, it seemed to be made of better stuff than the Focus on sale at your local Ford dealer. -end quote
My point exactly. Better off to buy a Civic Si or other Civic than drive a ZX3.
The TDCi wore a Ghia badge, meaning it was of a high trim level, but the quality of the materials and the fit-and-finish of the vehicle were superb—better than anything we’d seen before in a U.S. Focus. And don’t get us wrong, we really like the U.S. Focus. With its base 2.0-liter, inline four Zetec engine developing 130 hp and 127 lb-ft, the car delivers a lot of bang for its roughly $15,000 base price.
High trim level, right?
The Euro Focus has different high trims unlike the ZX3, which is being sold only in the basic one, right?
The Euro Focus has more engines options, and the American car - just one, being the best and more powerfull of them 2.0L, right?
And BTW, do you really believe that all the magazines know their stuff?
Those jockers in the article can't even get the engine horsepower/torgue ratings correct.
They're quoting the Euro numbers for the ZX3.
Considering that the car has been on the market for 3 model years, those little mistakes clearly show how much knowledge they have about the car.
Why don't you tell me the correct numbers if you like to research the Focus so much.
And don't feel sorry for Ford. Far more '02 Civics Si than '02 SVTF are still sitting at the dealerships.
Honda might consider renaming it in the Civic Sigh.
rschaap & vadp, how come you guys are so hot on the SVT and don't have one?
And while we're here, it's okay with me if you want to weight reliability and resale less than I do. We're all guessing, anyhow, based on history. Having had an Si that depreciated less than 3K in 3.5 years and 42K miles, I'm tickled pink to go Si again.
I agree, though, the Honda rep counts for a whole lot; and it's justified in my experience.
Ain't it just awful to be car shopping in this market?
LOL!
LOL!
Smooth as glass?? If you call revving at 5500 RPM going at 90-95mph w/ the wind howling like mad smooth as glass. I can't even hear the engine w/ all the wind noise.
And I must not be driving the same car as you and anony. My car has this annoying squeek whenever I go over uneven roads. Definitely plastic rubbing sound. I was getting squeeks all over the car but now only the left side is persistent.
As far as what Honda fans think of the Si, I can tell you the general public do not share the same view. But it doesn't matter to me. I wanted a cheap car that will be my beater for years to come and looks like the Si will serve this purpose.
I believe roughly 15,000 Si were imported by Honda.
Sales numbers do not change quality, performance or any other attribute except for price and availability.
I can go to nearly any Honda dealer and buy a Si. It is available. None of the Ford dealers in my area have a SVT Focus. My local Ford dealer had an SVT Focus earlier this year and I test drove it. It was impressive. It is the only one that they sold.
If Honda would have only imported 2,000 Si they would have sold every one at MSRP.
My point is that you can not say a car is good or bad simply based on sales.
Ford acknowledges that Focus has quality issues and they acknowledge that they have many problems with the union at the Focus assembly plant. Seems that everyone but a couple of people here on this board understand that Focus is outstanding in the number of quality failures it has.
I see where you're coming from, and I think you're right. To be fair here, comparing an Si to an A4 is about the same as comparing an Si to an Echo or a low end Mirage; the price differentials are roughly equivalent. My take is that to even compare an Si with an A4 speaks incredibly well of the Si.
It sounds like your Si is improving, squeek-wise. That's a good thing.
Revs? I think a six speed would be very desirable for x-way driving. It helps me to remember, though, that similar engines to ours are redlined much higher in the RSX-S and S2000. Wind noise? Doesn't surprise me that the Si is noisier at autobahn speeds than an A4. My '02 is a little quieter than my '99, and I'm pretty satisfied.
General public? The general public didn't 'get' my '99 Si for a couple of years, either, and has seemed pretty happy at various times with minivans and SUV's. I can't say that I've ever shared popular, mainstream tastes.
All in all, I'm satisfied. LOL, I figure it would be miraculous if I were to spend 1/2 again or twice as much and end up 1/2 again or twice as satisfied.
The SVT's vehicles were always rare and in short supply.
The majority of the buying public actually had and still have no idea for the most part, what those letters stand for.
Ford has sold around 5,000 of the '02 SVT Focuses during its first year in production.
It proved to be popular and now Ford is increasing production and planning on offering 3 and 5-door SVT versions.
The funny thing is that decision has generated an outcry amongst the current SVT owners, because with the increased production numbers they're gonna loose their status as the owners of a "rare" vehicle.
And in Europe the SVT Focuses are being sold as Focuses ST170. They even expanded their model line to include an ST170 wagon. I would never believe that a wagon could be made to look so sporty.
Now back to the Si's. The previous gen was selling like hotcakes. The model was running for years in the Honda line and proved to be enormously popular. It's pretty much a cult car among the Civic enthusiast community.
With the new gen, Honda did everything it could to bring that model back to Earth.
And the sales numbers plummeted accordingly.
So, somebody actually buying a car would need to pay what for a SVT? 2-2.5K more than an Si?
Fast forward 2-3 years and competition have caught up w/ Honda. And they are offering more car for the money though some would argue the legendary Honda reliability and resale value. The former maybe but I believe the general public is paying less and less attention to it coz' styling and performance numbers are probably tops now. As much as I like the Si styling, there are more who don't. Resale value?? Only uninformed buyers would pay $14k for a used 99/00 Si. That's just dumb. Never in my car shopping years (which is less than 10 years) have I seen a Honda sold for so much below invoice (02 Si). The only time I saw it was when the Accord changeover in 97/98 (?). You could easily get $1-$1.5k below invoice then. We are talking about an 02 Si invoicing at $17.8k being sold for $14-$14.5k. But I'm sure years down the road, some sucker will still pay $15k for a used 02/03 Si.
As far as how much an SVT cost, I'm sure the average price is similar to the Si. We look at the lowest price of the Si ($14-14.5k) and compare it to the average selling price of the SVT w/ rebates ($16k??). I'm sure there's someone who got the SVT for $14-$15k as well.
The current Si may never reach the popularity of the previous hatch Si since the engine is difficult to mod.
If your answer is yes, let's have some proof of price first. Here's mine: http://www.communityhonda.com/New-Car-Specials.htm
I wouldn't argue with anybody's taste, but facts are another matter. Even at Si pricing (of which there's no proof, yet - hint, hint), I wouldn't go SVT over Si on reliability/resale grounds alone; that's my taste, though.
Honda has mis-marketed the Si? Rings true to me. The Si would sell better in Type-R trim? Maybe, maybe not; depends on price, I figure. Would sell better in Type-R trim at 15K? Well yeah, duh.
If Honda offered a Type R look-a-like at an SVT price? Seems like a great marketing move to me. LOL, if Honda were to produce a bunch of 'em and price 'em at 18K, Ford would have to stick to trucks.
Marketing types - humph! Ford did the same thing with the '89 5.0 Stang; took a great value and priced it out of contention. It'll be interesting to see how many of those 19.7K SVT's actually sell in this market; I wouldn't even go test one, knowing that's the purchase price. An SVT at 19+K looks more ridiculous to me than an Si at 19+K.
Here are Polk Automotive Loyalty Award winners - 2002 Model year.
Ford Focus - a customer loyalty award winner in the small car category for the second time in the row.
P.S. Awards are based on actual consumer transactions, with over 5 million household records per year being analyzed to determine the winners. It is based on the census of information obtained from state registration and lease transaction information.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/030107-5.htm
NOT!
Just kidding the Focus owners a little bit.
I don't think you can get an accurate qoute for SVTs online. Reliable numbers are probably obtainable at the dealerships and w/ the increased rebates Ford is giving now who knows what the true price of the car is.
But for me, I'll never buy a Ford product. Let it be a Volvo, Jaguar, Aston Martin (as if I can afford a Vanquish), Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda or whatever else they acquire in the future. Or even rent a Hertz car. I've nothing against their car. I've a personal vendetta towards their employees and they are not going to get even an extra $0.00001 cent from me in their bonus.
The low prices for Si in Chicago area are $16,800 for 2003 and $14,995 for 20002.
Si is still the bargain.