Pontiac GTO

andys120 · September 2004

Australia is in Europe?

gshumway1 · September 2004

LOL Andy!
2169...If any country outside of the US embraced the concept 60's muscle (big HP engines in a midsize RWD car) it was our Aussie brothers.

Besides, give me the build quality and interior of that "european" Holden GTO over any POS Detroit iron I ever saw!

montanafan · September 2004

"Also, if he wants the tax upfront he is scamming you. You pay the tax as you go. And you haven't paid any tax on the residual at the end of the lease. I only put $800 down and that was before the big discounts came out. You can do better than that."

As it was pointed out by another, GMAC isn't leasing in New York. They are offering the SmartBuy. Since it is "buying" not "leasing", there would be sales tax due at purchase. I think the first poster was confusing the "SmartBuy" with a "SmartLease".

pompilius · September 2004

Don't you really have real leases anymore in NY?

pompilius · September 2004

paying taxes upfront in a lease is a bad thing. If you total the car, the tax money you paid upfront will not be recoverable.

nb2169 · September 2004

andys120:
No, Australia is not in Europe. However, the GTO's platform is an Australian adaptation of the Opel Omega platform which is based in Germany. Germany, the last I knew , was in Europe.
-nb2169

nb2169 · September 2004

gshumway1:
I have no quarrel with our Aussie brothers.The Holden Monaro is a fine automobile.I am not talking about going back to the 60's and 70's styling for a present day GTO. I am talking about GM's American arm starting with a clean sheet of paper and designing a new vehicle from the ground up.The GTO was born and made famous in the USA and I think it should have been re-introduced as an American designed and built car.
I disagree with your assessment of American vehicles as POS. I have never driven anything but American cars and most all of them were very reliable vehicles. In fact, my only disappointment was a muscle car that I bought used that had been hammered into the ground by it's first owner. I should have known better. I have read numerous posts talking about the superior quality of the materials and refinement of the interiors of European and Japanese vehicles. However, after looking at numerous pictures of European and Japanese vehicles, it appears to me that they are made of the very same plastic materials used in American made vehicles.

jeffhall76 · September 2004

The argument between the "Cavalier with a V8" vs. the "Fine European based automobile" will never be settled. The brilliant minds are Pontiac are going after two thoroughly different groups to sell this car to:

1) The good old boy American who's other car is a pickup truck, loves Camaros, watches Nascar, drinks Natural Ice beer, and just bought his daughter a purdy new Sunfire for her 16th birthday. This person doesn't care how much more refined the GTO is because they don't know any better (probably never owned an import) and simply think it looks like a Cavalier on steroids.

2) The up an coming later 20's/early 30's-40s college educated professional who wants a tastefully designed car with the build quality of a European automobile but the grunt of all American horsepower. This person drinks Heineken, loves BMW's, invests his money and wouldn't be caught dead in a Cavalier or Grand Prix but is astute enough to appreciate the finer points of the GTO and is actually attracted to the European/Aust. design and knows that the quality is more BMW than Pontiac. This person thinks the boys at the country club will be impressed.

When you are going after such different groups, the result is that nobody will really be happy in the end except those who realize what the car truly is and bought it for those reasons.

My 2cents
Jeff

andys120 · September 2004

My friend you need to look a little more closely at those plastics.

kentmoon · September 2004

finally got 6-speed barbado blue. thank you all for your kind input.

it was invoice plus 3500 incentive. i wasted 3 hour last friday while they screwed up numbers (i walked out and went back in tonight), so they gave me an addtional $500 coupon.

i drove 50 miles home and it was pretty comfortable in ca freeway at around 75-80 mph.

a lot of power.

i didn't get very good mileage, but we will see what happens in coming days.

what kind of mpg should i expect on mostly open freeway driving??

hammen2 · September 2004

...as many dealers forget to lower it from the 60 psi it's shipped with, to the recommended 35 psi.

Mileage depends upon M6 versus A4 - you have the M6, I have the A4. I was getting "around" 18 with my auto, but that was with AC on and mixed city/highway mileage (plus we have RFG, reformulated gas, which has about 10% fuel penalty over non-RFG).

Unfortunately, my car's been in the shop since 9/9 with a harmonic noise from the firewall, which the dealer, GM, and Holden haven't been able to fix so far - pretty frustrating (since the car's been in the shop more days than I've owned it). Hoping this comes to a resolution soon...

--Robert

caloboy · September 2004

GM and Delphi employees can get almost 8 grand off sticker right now. I doubt prices will erode any farther because of the strong lease deals now being advertised. Local dealers here in Dayton Ohio are suddenly moving GTOs that have been setting on lots for months. The 2005 GTO will have 400 horsepower and hood scoops as the only major changes. If the price point stays the same and GM is liberal with rebates, these cars will sell. Gm might not be making what they had hoped to on this car but the car enthusiast should take advantage of a great driver like this at a reasonable price! LONG LIVE THE GTO!

bigdaddycoats · September 2004

Well, I have had my GTO for one week now. Almost 400 miles. I love this car. Easily the best car I have ever had. I find myself going for rides just for fun. Filled the gas tank twice but have not figured out the mileage yet. I have a feeling it is pretty low - but that is what I expected. Especially since I do mostly city driving and I don't shift very conservatively.
Anyone looking to buy an 04 should wait til next week - 28th-30th GM is offering 0% for 72 months on 04 models.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0409/21/c01-279951.htm

exzur · September 2004

With the 24/24 lease for $224 per month plus 1,699, that's 24 x 224 + 1,699 equates to $7075. The other one is 279 x 24 + 0 equals $6,696.

After two years, I don't think these GTOs are worth 20 grand.

I heard 8 grand off sticker price. I wonder, just wonder how GM could make money on these deals.

How could the GTO live a long life? GM could be loosing it's feathers.

bigdaddycoats · September 2004

They most likely are not making much if anything with these deals.

On the other hand, this car already existed. Just a few things were changed to bring it over here - so it did not cost a lot, development ally, to bring to the U.S. market. And in typical GM fashion, I am sure this car was somewhat overpriced from the beginning - knowing that incentives would be used down the road.

andy · September 2004

where did you get these lease details....i really wasn't in the market for a car, but these deals are getting ridiculously juicy

exzur · September 2004

Posts 1563, 1571, etc...

exzur · September 2004

With these price markdowns or discounts, GM can still make money, I pity those people who bought their GTOs at, a little bit below, or above MSRP.

Looks like daytime robbery.

kentmoon · September 2004

i think my dealer screwed up on my lease deal last night. after further review of lease doc, i think the residual dealer used (.63) is too high for 2 year 20k miles deal i've got. I did some lease calc, and payment seems to be about $70-$80 higher than what i've gotten for 2 years.

i hope they don't call me back today to void the lease agreement!!

anyone familiar with residual value after 2 years and 40k?

montanafan · September 2004

The extra mileage you sign up for will not change the residual percentage used in the calculations. In the lease numbers the extra mileage cost will reduce the residual value that the percentage arrived at.

All that being said, (Based on my net readings) I think the 63% residual is for GMAC low mileage leases (12,000@yr). The rate used should have been 62% (15,000@yr or extra mileages) for your lease. Take 1% of your MSRP,divide by 24, to get ballpark of how much higher the payment should be.

Dealer may not catch it but GMAC will when they proccess the lease.

kentmoon · September 2004

Lease agreement says "you are buying 10008 extra miles at $.10 ..." I guess this means that I am buying additional 5000/year based on 15000/year lease.

I am guessing that my monthly payment includes $.10 charge, but I am not clear how. Residual is around .63. One thing that I've noticed is that there is a rent charge of $2042.40. Perhaps, rent charge includes $1000 of extra mile?

My purchase option is still at .63 of purchase price. If I am paying for extra miles in advance, I should be able to buy the car at lower price.

Lastly, if there is a problem of lease that I signed, what happens once GMAC discovers an error?

I know that my lease is much higher that quotes that I've got from several dealers in recent days.

I appreciate your input.

caloboy · September 2004

If you have a standard GMAC lease form- the box on (14) base Mileage Allowance- 15000- should be checked. If there are additional miles added in as your lease says then they should be reflected in the Total Mileage at lease end blank. The rent charge is actually the interest charged on the adjusted cap cost. Residual on 15,000 mile lease is 62%. 12,000 miles is 63%. My lease for 24 months with 15,000 miles per year came out to $227 per month with almost $2200 down. The down money includes 1500 cap cost reduction, 450 in taxes on rebates applied to lease and the first month's payment.

white6 · September 2004

I've been trying to work a SmartBuy with the local Pontiac dealer. So far, he has tried pretty much every trick in the book to inflate the numbers (to his advantage, of course). I was first told that if I went with SmartBuy, the $3,500 incentive went bye-bye. Then told, no, it is applicable (after I walked out). Then they told me that a 24-month SmartBuy would be $440 a month. Oops, no, sorry, it would be $400 a month. When I informed him that it should be around $296 a month, he corrected himself again. Seems he forgot to change the residual value (conveniently). He now gets a $293 payment (33,495 MSRP, sale price of $26,704, $1365 GM Card rebate for down payment, 24 months, 62% residual, 5.5% interest). I'm confident that by the time I get down there today, the numbers will have changed again. It has been a hard decision whether to keep my current car or trade; he keeps making that decision easier all the time.

montanafan · September 2004

Purchase Option dosen't have to equal Residual Value. It can be as mush as $500 more then the Residual Value.

Is your Purchase Option price 63% of MSRP on the nose or approximately? Either way, I believe something is wrong.

Your 10,008 extra miles should be reducing the Residual Value of the GTO by $1,000.80. That is around 3% of MSRP. Even pushing the Purchase Option up by $500, you should still be under the 63% you report. Take 62% and 63% of your MSRP, subtract $1,000.80. Now compare those number to the listed residual value on the lease. Should be a few lines above where you found the "rent" charge. ("Rent" charge is the name the FTC picked to represent the "finance" cost of a lease). Do either of the numbers match?

You may want to call the dealership, and make an appointment with the Finance Manager (or whatever) and ask them to go over the numbers. But before you do have a plan in mind for what you will accept ( ie the can correct but you will not accept a higher payment).

qbrozen · September 2004

no way would i go back in and meet with them. You don't really want to buy the car at the end of the lease, do you? If you did, I wouldn't think you'd be worried about paying for those extra miles. Plus, will the car really be worth 63% in 2 years? I seriously doubt it. So if you're payments are lower than you think they really should be, why try to fix it?? If they come back to you and want to change things, they have to get a new contract with you. It is your choice whether you want to accept the new contract or not. Their other option is to "unwind" the deal and take the car back (with it now being a used car, basically), and they just are not going to want to do that. So you are in the driver's seat.

caloboy · September 2004

Have you had dealer run Smart lease payments? This should be less than the buy. There is no real advantage to the Smartbuy unless you have a high dollar trade in to eliminate sales tax on the GTO. If you expect to turn vehicle in at lease end and don't have a high dollar trade in then your throwing money away on sales tax on the whole price of the GTO versus sales tax on lease.I don't know how your dealer is coming up with so many different numbers. I talked to 3 dealers and had some variation in payments, but not alot. Your sale price sounds like the dealer is working down from invoice, so that's good.

kentmoon · September 2004

I am NOT going back for recalc of my lease.

They initially offer me 20K mile for 3 years at $471/mo 0 down. I've changed the deal at last minute for 2 year 20K with $5000 down. The payment is now $298/mo. If I remove $5000 downpayment, my monthly payment is slight over $500/month. It seem hard to believe that payment can only go up by $40 by going from 3 to 2 years. Perhaps, $5000 down have reduce finance charge quite a bit??

b4z · September 2004

Pontiac will be offering 0% for 72 months between
9/27 and 9/30 on the GTO.

The $3500 will not be available wtih this offer,
don't know if the $500 certificates(you can use 2 on the GTO) will be though.

'05s will be on the dealer's lots end of October first part of November.

rob999 · September 2004

The EPA highway mileage rating for the 6-speed version is 29 MPG. Are any of you owners getting near that in real-life 70-75 mph highway cruising, assuming you're disciplined enough to stay off the gas ?

)

midwesttrader · September 2004

Somehow I don't think there will be much excitement about a 6 year loan on an '04, interest free or not. Especially if there is no cash incentive and the selling price heads back towards msrp.

I believe '05 production just started on 9/13. A couple of weeks to fill a ship, a month for the ship to get here, a couple of weeks at port and to the dealers, if everything goes very smoothly you're looking at late November. On the other hand if it goes like the first time around it will be December (again). Just in time for those dead of winter rwd sports coupe buyers.

kentmoon · September 2004

I drove for 2 days now. I do about 100 miles each day on mostly freeway driving at 75-80 mph. I am getting 21-23 mpg. I am disappointed.

sphinx99 · September 2004

Does the GTO have traction control and/or stability control? I can't put my S2000 through another winter, but it'll be a cold day in hell before it's pried away from me. Looking for a FUN daily driver at reasonable cost that can be winterized but traction/stability control and side airbags are a big issue for me. I was nearly ready to spring on a TSX but I did a test drive in the GTO and that torque is tempting and as others have said I think there are some good deals on the horizon.

How *safe* is this car, assuming it's wearing the appropriate tires for the season?

kentmoon · September 2004

It has traction control, but no stability control.

I've been driving for 3 days, and torque is awesome. I've got 6 speed, and I don't have to change gear that much in a stop and go traffic. It is surprisingly easy to drive. When road opens up, it takes off.

So far it really exceeds my high expectation. I had numerous cars including 2 bimmers and a mercedes, and I am surprised in build and ride quality of this car.

With the current rebate, it is a great deal. Where would you get almost M3 performance(who cares if you are not racing on weekend) and corvette engine with 2 extra seats??? I am so glad that I didn't get M3 last year.

white6 · September 2004

SmartBuy seems better because you are the registered owner of the car and you can get out of the car if absolutely necessary. There is no advantage to leasing in Oklahoma, as we pay the same tax (no sales tax on vehicles in Oklahoma; we pay one time "excise tax" within 30 days of purchase, 3.25% of sales price, regardless of whether it's a lease or purchase and regardless of trade-in). I'm still trying to get the true "sale price" of the car that he is using to figure payments. He admitted yesterday that he was adding $400 "gap insurance" to the price. Working backwards from the price of the car, it looks like he is packing about $900 into the purchase price; that won't stand or I won't buy the car.

tolenash · September 2004

The car can average around 25 at 70mpg with A/C off. The only way to get that higher is to slow down. I've seen the instant MPG display go up to 45mpg at 40mph with my foot steady on the gas and in 6th gear (~1100 RPM).

Its the acceleration that kills the MPG. I've tried to keep my shifting to below 2000 RPM and the highest I've had a whole tank go is 23mpg; which was a weekend trip, all interstate.

My daily commute is 1 mile to interstate, 4 miles on interstate, 3 miles on traffic riddled 4 lane roads to work. In a typical week I'll also make a few 25 mile runs into Charleston. I can average about 19-21 mpg typically. I do "let it breathe" now and again...

I've had it for two months, 3800 miles. Impulse blue, blue leather.

kkollwitz · September 2004

My 2002 5.7 6 speed Z28 turned in 24.5 mpg on a recent interstate trip, typical speed from 70 to 78 mph, with A/C. If you're getting 23 mpg at 80 mph in the GTO, that seems ok to me, especially if you only have a few thousand miles on it.

kentmoon · September 2004

I guess claimed 29 mpg is achieved in perfect condition...6th gear, 45mph, highway, no hills, no car, no wind...etc. I will continue to experiement to see what I get since I am new to this car.

If I am on a too high gear, for example 6th on 45mph, and I hit gas, I hear engine grumbling in protest. Is that damaging for engine or transmission in any ways??

Sometimes in highway traffic i leave on 3rd gear and it severs me well from 5-40 mph.

b4z · September 2004

It is probably not doing serious damage.
I lug my IROC a lot and when I had the clutch replaced at 105K my mechanic said the rear seal was leaking. He told me the seal had worn a slight groove into the crankshaft.
This was from the crankshaft moving back and forth slightly on each shift and from lugging it.

i now have 205K on the IROC.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2004

That's right, EPA assumes no aerodynamic factors.

sputterguy · September 2004

Personally, I haven't checked my mileage. I don't think I really want to know. I thought the 29mpg highway would have been at 65mph but someone told me it was probably at 55mph and that sounds about right from what I am reading here.

By the way, congratulations. It sounds like you got a good deal on your GTO.

bigdaddycoats · September 2004

I am writing down miles, gallons and $$ but am not going to calculate anything for awhile. I don't really want to know. I do not expect the mileage to be very good - but I knew that going in. It is a sports car after all.

kentmoon · September 2004

You are right. It is a sport car, not a family sedan. I guess I was interested in mileage because average mpg is right in front of me.

What matters is that I am having so much fun in my 50-mile one-way commute.

I've notice that MPH light is way too bright at night, and I've noticed that there is a service bulletin for that fix. I will take it it tomorrow to get it fixed. Also, all instruments went crazy once, but after restart problem disappeared. I've read that somewhere that it is a known problem for this car. I will mention to the dealer and see what they do.

tolenash · September 2004

door open indicator won't light for either door or trunk. Anyone else have this problem? I just noticed lack of it last night.

rayainsw · September 2004

"I thought the 29mpg highway would have been at 65mph but someone told me it was probably at 55mph and that sounds about right from what I am reading here."

" (2) The highway fuel economy test is designated to simulate non-metropolitan driving with an average speed of 48.6 mph and a maximum speed of 60 mph. The cycle is 10.2 miles long with 0.2 stops per mile and consists of warmed-up vehicle operation on a chassis dynamometer through a specified driving cycle. A proportional part of the diluted exhaust emissions is collected continuously for subsequent analysis using a constant volume (variable dilution) sampler. Diesel dilute exhaust is continuously analyzed for hydrocarbons using a heated sample
line and analyzer." - from the EPA PART 600 Subpart B, Sec. 600.111-80

- Ray
Believing 60 mph maximum is just a bit unrealistic, these days . . .

rob999 · September 2004

Casoncase: Don't sugarcoat it - tell us how you REALLY feel!
;o)

Mr_Shiftright · September 2004

post deleted for off-topic comments.

Host

caloboy · September 2004

Just did a spirited 100 mile drive through hilly and curvy southern Indiana countryside yesterday that returned close to 20 mpg. It was a beautiful day and a great time! My wife's boring Trailblazer is lucky to pull down that mileage at 65 mph cruise on the interstate. I'm very pleased with gas mileage thus far, but have no interstate driving to see how well it can do...

sputterguy · September 2004

Well, that clears things up.

white6 · September 2004

and brought home a black/black A4 GTO on Thursday. Already have a problem. Air flow direction selector is goofed up. Air blows through defogger vents a base of windshield no matter where the knob is pointed. After several minutes, it will finally blow through dash vents. However, when I accelerate from a stop, it reverts to defog. As I let up on the throttle, goes back to dash vents. Hopefully it won't be a big problem for them to fix. Other than this, I like the car real well. Very comfortable and fun to drive. Wound up with 24 month SmartBuy at $295 a month/ 0 down.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2004

Brock Yates had something to say about the GTO in this month's Car and Driver. Basically he seems to really like the car but wonders who in GM got the idea to (paraphrase) "order up an off-the-rack outfit" for this car, i.e., dressing it rather plainly and too much like the Pontiac fleet cars. He's all for hood scoops, decals and special paint to boost the marketing.

Pontiac GTO

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