Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Pontiac GTO
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Is GM locked in an advertising / media contract or something with the GTO where they can only show it on certain channels? As mentioned before, the only time I saw an ad for th '05 was during the Barrett-Jackson auction on Speed Channel. And to be honest, this is the only channel that I've ever seen GTO commercials. They were constantly showing the '04 commercial where there was a three car garage, a GP Comp G parked on the left, a Bonne GXP on the right, then a quick glimpse of a GTO sliding into the middle bay. This type of non-existent advertising doesn't make since to me at all. What if I didn't have Speed (which I didn't until I moved a few months ago-different channel selections in the cable package)? Then I wouldn't hear about or see this vehicle at all. I don't even hear about the vehicle on the radio!! It seems they're taking the Mercury Marauder (R.I.P.) approach with this vehicle. Jim Wangers, where are you?
Second, I thought that Lutz and crew were going to fix this allotment issue. Are they fixing it? It doesn't seem like it from what I am hearing and seeing. The Pontiac dealerships in my neck of the woods only have one or two; one still has 6 '04 vehicles. The local Ford dealer up the road has plenty of V6 & V8 Mustangs. I know things take time but you would think they would have learned from the '04 allotment issues.
Examples include: Fiero GT, Impala SS, T-Type/GN/GNX, RWD Cutlass Supreme, (yeah, I know I know, the g-body, oh sorry "architecture", was going away), GTP 2-dr coupe, maybe even the f-body? to name a few.
And then perhaps replace it with a re-badged, weak-kneed and/or over-priced vehicle. ;]
The last mention of GTOs I saw was a 1/2 hour special that Speed Channel did on them quite some time ago. That was for the '04 model. I saw a little "blurb" on the Speed Channel about the '05 about a month ago, but that's been about it. That said, Pontiac just sent me a nice package with a DVD movie featuring the GTO. They also sent a nicely bound booklet with a brochure in it, also. It included the "special financing" rates for the '05 GTO. I hope GM updates the GTO and doesn't "ax" it. With some eexterior cosmetic upgrades and some "tweaking" of the brakes and shfter, I still think they can make it a "winner". They should also address the price. As mentioned before, I believe it is about 15% too high in the MSRP dept. But, if they add some rebates, that could offset the pricing issue.
bottgers....GM is big enough (still) that they still don't ask "why?". Instead, they ask "how"?. In this instance, it's "how do we close down plants and consolidate models?".
They've had some good models come down the pike that they either let languish too long without updates, or ignored entirely. I think some of this stems from the John Smale days (he of Procter & Gamble marekting fame) when he was their chairman. Big difference in marketing "new and improved" Pampers with a new little tabby to hold a diaper on better and making a complex car that people want to buy. But, that was P&G's way. If a brand doesn't work, either sell it off or shut it down.
GM's decision to ax the F-body was short sighted, IMHO. They certainly didn't have the appeal any longer to those that could afford them. I was 20 years younger the last time those held any sort of appeal to me.
In hindsight, GM could have done the same with the GTO....put in a few "retro" styling cues from the GTO's heyday of the late 60s, yet keep it modern with the platform it sits on today.
However, one has to wonder if the GTO was a hit, what GM would have done? The Mustang will sell in the neighborhood of 150,000 units of the '05 version. If the GTO was a hit, the most they could have produced was about 20,000. Unfortunately, they are still struggling to sell off all the 18,000 units they originally produced last year. This year, they hope to sell about 12,000 units. Yet, from what others are saying, different parts of the country have yet to see an '05. GM shot themselves in the foot, yet again. Those 12,000 GTOs are going to show up sooner or later. When they do, will GM be able to keep the interest of the customer? Or, will they all show up about the same time, and GM has to rebate them to clear the lots?
Their customers have told them what they have to do (restyle it), but they seem content to leave it alone. Makes you wonder how committed GM is to the model?
There's a particularly "tasty" '05 GTO (black metalflake exterior with red interior) that's been sitting on my dealer's lot for about a month. It's sitting there with an MSRP of $33,690. Right next to it sits a new silver '04 GTO with big numbers on the windshield stating "SALE....$25,995". Neither one is selling. The '04 has been there at least 6 months. That doesn't instill a lot of confidence to the person that may be in the market for a GTO as far as it's real world value.
I don't know how many '05s are in country now, but there's no way they can all show up at once because of the shipping dynamic. One boat only holds so many and the trip is about six weeks. Depending on when they kick in the big incentives (it was September last year) there could be a bunch of them on the lots at one time though.
jae5 - GM said they were going to fix the allotment issue by diverting cars from the North Central Region to other parts of the country. Sounds like they aren't getting it done at this point.
I have no idea what it would sell for, but it would have to be real "skinny" money if I were looking for one.
GM is in quite the quandary with the GTO. Certainly, it's an appealing car. But, if they didn't rebate the daylights out of the '04, they never would move. Plus, they are still languishing. At the same time, they are trying to sell '05 GTOs that are priced about $6K more in real dollars. That's a hefty real world price difference from one model year to the next.
So, you couldn't sell '04s at $30K +. You hope that the '05s will sell at that price, even though you already have proof that they won't move from the previous model year's sales. Pontiac dropped a bigger engine in the '05s, but that really didn't address the problem.
Personally, at this late juncture, you slap a $4k rebate on the '05s. You've got '04s with $5K of dealer cash already on them. '05 is $1k more than the '04 with that pricing model.
I don't know if GM has committed to an '06 GTO or not, but it makes one wonder. No one knows what '07 holds for the GTO. Plus, GM won't tell you because that would make people wait before buying.
What more can GM do? They've already got their "halo" engine in it. It doesn't look like they want to do more than a few minor styling changes to the body.
The future of the model really should have GM worried, though. And that's a real shame because it is a good car.
I'll assume Feb '05 GTO sales figures from GM include quite a few leftover '04s in the mix.
That tells me that their monthly sales rate for '05 GTOs is still on the "skinny" end of what GM wants...even with the reduced production of the '05 model.
Give it another 30-60 days and Pontiac will have yet another fiasco on their hands with the GTO when more '05s show up. Then, they'll still have '04s and a glut of '05s hanging around.
Maybe that's the time to strike a deal for one. But, the customer is still faced with the issue of terrible resale value (never a GM strong suit to begin with).
I don't know what GM is doing.
We were on our way to SF anyway so off we go in the '05 GTO. I didn't even thrash it. Even parked it while we ate and went shopping. But I tell you, we both fell in love with it. It was a dark grey and just looked outstanding. And the torque was unreal. It actually is much more powerful. It even sounds better. I don't care for those chrome tips but the sound coming out of them is much better also. It seems to idle louder but is quieter when you step on it. Oh, and not once did it skip shift. I don't know if they left it off or I just managed to avoid it. Anyway, that is one sweet car and I want it. If it sells before the incentives come out, oh well, but I am definitely going to upgrade.
"Another good month for GTO given the inventory levels and time of year!
988 for the month of February, last year was 606
670 2005 models (68%), 318 2004 models (32%)
Grounded stock as of 3/1 was 2,773 or 70 days worth
Grounded stock mix as of 3/1 was 1,025 2004 models (37%) and 1,748 2005 models(63%)
For the year GTO is up 74%
Top five states:
1 - California (by a long shot, LA is the # 1 city for the year!)
2 - Florida
3 - Illinois
4 - Georgia
5 - Arizona"
There's only 1025 04's left and the majority of them are automatics. They can be easily purchased outright on ebay for $23500. 05's can be found for $500 over dealer invoice if you're a serious buyer. Too bad the media has been so harsh on the GTO. These are truly GREAT cars!!
I steered away from the GTO 04 stick because of the lack of room between the clutch and the sidewall. They made it a little better in the 05.
From what I have been reading the Z has some problems with reliability and excessive tire wear.
Anyway, back the Pontiac.
About the productions figures....a 70-day supply is not good (30-45 day supply is considered good).
If the goal for the '05 is to sell 1,000/mo and they are only selling 670/mo, that's not good either.
350Z vs GTO.....GTO....hands down. It's built better and from all reports has been rock solid from a build/engineering standpoint. Plus, it will be flat out faster and ride better.
When I was doing my car-buying "cross-shop" lists, the GTO didn't show up on any one of them. For example, on one list I had the G35 coupe, IS-300, BMW 330 coupe, BMW M3 (used), Audi A4/A6. The GTO didn't even come to mind. I also know a few BMW owners and none of them think of Pontiac when they talk about their vehicles or cross-shop for a replacement. And to go along with this, the few GTO commercials and other advertising bits have no mention of going after the BMW crowd; they're more toward hauling a**, burning rubber, and doing burnouts. Not really the thing BMW owners and the like look for.
Also on the show were views from people test driving the vehicle and from those in different Pontiac groups at driving events or meets. Pretty much the same thing, "Nice car, great fit & finish, awesome power, but it ain't a GTO. Where's the hood scoop? Where's the split duals? Where's the rumble? Where the trunk? Where's the excitement?"
As stated through-out the show, the car wasn't just competing against other vehicles, it was competing against itself, particularly the 64 - 72 models. A decent car, good power, but just doesn't have the "umphf", the "damn that's hot" (excuse the language); a good sleeper, but too much asleep.
Then there was a segment on "drifting" a GTO with some supposed drifter champion. That's also not something you're likely to see appeal to the BMW customer. That's the province of the younger crowd. Unfortunately, the drifting demographic can't afford a $33K car. It was fun to watch, though.
I agree. There aren't going to be many folks prancing from the BMW store to the Pontiac or Ford dealer. I'm sure both GM and Ford want that to happen, but it's not.
IMHO, in addition to the lack of marketing of the GTO, the little I saw of the marketing touted the current "iteration" as a "return of the GTO legend". In other words, they almost made it seem as if there was going to be some sort of retro GTO coming to market. As we all know, at least from a styling perspective, this wasn't the case.
Having been a bimmer owner in the past, I can tell you that I cross shopped it with Audi and a Benz.....not a Pontiac. I didn't have any reason to do so, at the time. Still don't think I'd cross shop. M3s are very fast cars, too. As you say, doing a smoky burnout as part of the GTOs marketing campaign isn't going to cause anyone to meander from their BMW to Pontiac for no other reason than different dynamics of the two cars (which is quite different from each other). The only thing they really do have in common...BMWs are quick and so is the GTO.
To add to all of this, Pontiac is stuck in a pricing quandary. '04s with big incentives still on the lots and '05s with no incentives while people are, for the most part, waiting for them to kick-in.
I'll have to check out the Speed Channel show you saw. I'd like to see it if it ever comes on again.
My bad luck run with recent GM vehicles continues, though, as the Envoy is at the dealership for service visit #4 (4WD system failed - car won't move if it's switched into 4WD - it's previously suffered from a cracked spark plug, a bad injector, and a bunch of ECM/PCM/transfer case software updates due to spurious 4WD error lamps, and hunting/slipping going up hills)...
--Robert
Also, I don't think they anticipate selling 1000 a month to reach the 12,000, considering it's winter in half the continental U.S. yet. Now, if they maintain the under-1k sale rate in April/May/June, then they have a problem. I think they're playing wait-and-see and holding back on incentives/rebates. Of course, they did that last year, too, not putting anything on the hood until July, and by then it was too late to move the huge backlog they had.
--Robert
You may be right about the "seasonal" thing regarding the GTO. But, if I'm in Lutz's shoes, I'd rather be hitting the monthly target right out of the chute when the "buzz" about a model is highest. If it ain't selling now, when all the auto shows have put them on the turntable and touted the LS2, hood scoops, real tail treatment, etc of the '05, then that tells me they're going to have even worse issues down the road in selling them when the "buzz" and the "new & improved status" from the car shows have died down, if not totally forgotten.
I do want to see it succeed. But, it's in the middle innings and the home team is losing. In reality, the GTO has another 5 months to make up for lost ground. We'll see how they do. If it's going to make a move, the time is now. GM can't put a bandaid on it later in the year with incentives. By then, the game is already out of control.
"Another good month for GTO given the inventory levels and time of year!
- How can anyone say that with a straight face? If 318+ of the 1886 they sold so far this year are '04s, the '05s are CRAWLING off the lots. Where's the excitement/anticipation? I'm afraid there is none. At least not at $30K.
I believe you're mistaken about eBay though. I just checked and since 2/17 only one car has actually sold. A used Barbados Blue (almost 7K miles) went for $24995. No other sales new or used with bids up to $23600.
Robert - you are an eternal optimist. Two new GM car purchases recently and nothing but trouble from both.
The show should be on again, it's American Muscle Car, so it'll re-run a gazillion times. Pretty good show, too many darn commercials though.
Yeah, Pontiac, GM as a whole really, is stuck. As mentioned by yourself and another poster, GM is getting business due to the incentives and discounts, not really because their vehicles are "must haves".
Do you or your insider have information in terms of which cities or regions whithin the states are seeing the most action? I was shocked by Illinois being listed as #3. I've only seen two on the street since last summer (both in June). Of the rest I've seen, they have been at a few dealers' lots.
He personally hated the design changes (grilles, rear spoiler, hood scoops) that Pontiac made in "his" car.
There seems to be a lot of territorial BS going on between GMNA and Holden. My wife used to work for a company that did a lot of tool & die patterns for GM, and she stays in touch with one of her old GM customers. He had nothing good to say about the GTO and said he'd never buy one. So, the negativity that Pontiac gets about the car comes even from people working at GM!
--Robert
I think I'm just unlucky. Either that or GM quality has gone noticeably downhill. My Aurora had some issues (AC compressor, multifunction switch, Northstar rear crankshaft engine seals) but my warranty covered those, and the car has been bulletproof for the last 30k miles. My wife's GTP was pretty solid for the 3 years we had it. She and I both had Luminas that were little more than gas, tires, and oil (also an alternator and battery) in 5+ years of driving. My '91 Grand Prix was great except for the common rear caliper/brake issues. Her '94 Grand Am was also bulletproof.
I've never had a tranny problem in any GM car. The only engine problem I've had was the rear crankshaft seals on my Aurora.
At this point, so early in my loans on these vehicles, I would probably do lucky to be even on the Envoy, and would take a bath on the GTO. Since I do have a warranty, I'm biding my time. Should the problems continue, I will be dumping them before the warranty expires.
I have told my wife that it is no great certainty that my next vehicle will be from GM, employee discount and GM card dollars notwithstanding. I am in high hopes that my new GTO is as solid as virtually everyone else's has been.
Marketing, styling, shoulda-woulda-coulda, when I drove my old car, I loved it. Can't wait for the snow to be gone!
--Robert
I've seen the Monaro. That Aussie guy shouldn't be complaining. If they brought the Monaro over here without at least a minor re-style, none of them would have sold.
GM has an image problem here in the states. I don't know what their image is in Australia, but short of the Corvette, which will get looks from the Porsche crowd, or the Caddy, which in current iterations may get some BMW cross-shopping, nothing else in their line-up will get even a nod from the Toyota/Honda crowd....let alone BMW or Audi.
I qualify for GMS via my brother-in-law. And, even though I get great pricing, the only worthwhile GM I've had in recent years was my bulletproof GTP. Unless you want to travel back in time and remind me of the very first car I bought.....a well used Chevy with a 283 V8 in it. I don't know if I loved that car because it was my first car or not. But, it ran like the dickens.
I've had a couple of GMs here and there over the years, but nothing that I'd look back on fondly.
I'm trying really hard to make my case for a GTO, but am probably talking myself out of it. That should tell me something....the car has a 400 HP motor and I'm ambivalent about it. Maybe that should tell GM something, too. After all, I'm the guy who can afford one and the person GM is trying to market it to.
The interior is well made but I guess I dont like the fact that you seem to be sitting way up high in it. The 350Z is the complete opposite. I just never felt in total control of the GTO when pushing it. The Z felt totally in control. My wife thinks the Z is cooler and is pushing me to get the Z even though it is a 2 seater.
A car that does not sell well upon launch rarely, if ever, gathers steam later. By the same token, one that does not sell well new does not hold its value as a used car.
It pains me to say it but I can't see any reason why the GTO will be any different from the norm.
Just my take, though. I'd never denigrate anyone in a Z. Funny, when I had my RX8, Zs were always hanging around on the road with me. And, vice versa.
Can you fit 2 in the GTO?
Yes, the '05 has the skip shift. I rarely confront it though -- gotta hear/feel that grunt/rap, which is why I get bad mileage (14 city).
Question: one of the dual pipes is a little off-center. The pipes are hung on rubber from very substantial welded components. There doesn't seem to be any way of re-positioning the pipe. Any ideas?
My '04 Goat is on the dealer's lot for 25M.
As to declining value, you know what? Wait until 2007 and you can get a really great deal on an '05; wait until 2010 and you can get three '05s really cheap! Buying a car is not like buying a stock, whose value can go up or down.
How do you measure what a car -- or anything else -- is worth to you? By sales stats, or what strangers think about it? That's part of it, but not a great part. Even if I were filthy rich I'd have bought the goat. Don't know why, but a Carrera or S6 is just too snotty/elitist (and too frequently seen) for me. What was it she said? Different strokes for different folks?
It turns out that the rarity of the new goat is a plus, for me. I guess that's why a 1964 Mack truck or Steerman bi-plane will always get my stare. How boring would it be to be one of a gazillion Mustang owners? "Oh, mine's red! Oh, mine's blue and it's a GT! And there's another one over there! And over there! Is that a Cobra? I don't know, I'll have to get closer so I can read the badging."
On the other hand, when a goat rumbles by, noone wonders what it is.
case...resale is looking bad on the GTO. If brand new leftover '04s are sitting on dealer's lots for $10K less than MSRP, then it's reasonable to think the '05s won't fare any better.
As much as I think the GTO is a good car, in all reality, I fear it's destined for extiction after the '06 model year. Some will think that makes it a collectible. I personally think it will be considered a GM "bust" with little collectible value.
While I was there another salesman was checking out the '05 they brought over for me to drive. He has an'04 that is in the shop because the gear shift rattles or buzzes. I told him other guys have that problem too. He had it in before for that problem and even though he worked there they gave him the same song and dance about 'performing per specification' or something like that. He didn't accept that and I guess they are going to fix it for real this time.
And finally, in the showroom was a red '04 6-speed. I checked the sticker on the window out of curiostity and it still said $3995 Dealer Markup. I laughed and said "$3995 Dealer Markup". Another salesman said no there was no markup on it. Well, take that crap off then. The car should have had a sale sign on it. I didn't bother to ask what they really wanted for it. I don't care and I know they would deal.