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Pontiac GTO

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Comments

  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    That seems to be GM's answer for everything. If it ain't sellin', get rid of it. The sensible thing to do if a vehicle isn't selling is find out why, then redesign it to give the customers what they want. Not GM. They just quit making it. In fact, they do away with entire divisions. Maybe they should stop making cars all together and just do financing.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Have a couple of questions for the board.

    Is GM locked in an advertising / media contract or something with the GTO where they can only show it on certain channels? As mentioned before, the only time I saw an ad for th '05 was during the Barrett-Jackson auction on Speed Channel. And to be honest, this is the only channel that I've ever seen GTO commercials. They were constantly showing the '04 commercial where there was a three car garage, a GP Comp G parked on the left, a Bonne GXP on the right, then a quick glimpse of a GTO sliding into the middle bay. This type of non-existent advertising doesn't make since to me at all. What if I didn't have Speed (which I didn't until I moved a few months ago-different channel selections in the cable package)? Then I wouldn't hear about or see this vehicle at all. I don't even hear about the vehicle on the radio!! It seems they're taking the Mercury Marauder (R.I.P.) approach with this vehicle. Jim Wangers, where are you?

    Second, I thought that Lutz and crew were going to fix this allotment issue. Are they fixing it? It doesn't seem like it from what I am hearing and seeing. The Pontiac dealerships in my neck of the woods only have one or two; one still has 6 '04 vehicles. The local Ford dealer up the road has plenty of V6 & V8 Mustangs. I know things take time but you would think they would have learned from the '04 allotment issues.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Totally agree bottgers. Even if it is selling, get rid of it. But before you get rid of it, make it the way people having been wanting it, then get rid of it.

    Examples include: Fiero GT, Impala SS, T-Type/GN/GNX, RWD Cutlass Supreme, (yeah, I know I know, the g-body, oh sorry "architecture", was going away), GTP 2-dr coupe, maybe even the f-body? to name a few.

    And then perhaps replace it with a re-badged, weak-kneed and/or over-priced vehicle. ;]
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Where do you live? I'd love to talk to a dealer that has Mustang GT stock right now. I'm currently carless and ordered one, but it's going to take another month (probably more) to get it. IF I could get one sooner, I'd surely like to try. On the flipside, there are probably 20 '05 GTOs within a 50 mile radius of me (in SW OH) and probably another 20 '04 GTOs hanging around I could buy today.

    The last mention of GTOs I saw was a 1/2 hour special that Speed Channel did on them quite some time ago. That was for the '04 model. I saw a little "blurb" on the Speed Channel about the '05 about a month ago, but that's been about it. That said, Pontiac just sent me a nice package with a DVD movie featuring the GTO. They also sent a nicely bound booklet with a brochure in it, also. It included the "special financing" rates for the '05 GTO. I hope GM updates the GTO and doesn't "ax" it. With some eexterior cosmetic upgrades and some "tweaking" of the brakes and shfter, I still think they can make it a "winner". They should also address the price. As mentioned before, I believe it is about 15% too high in the MSRP dept. But, if they add some rebates, that could offset the pricing issue.

    bottgers....GM is big enough (still) that they still don't ask "why?". Instead, they ask "how"?. In this instance, it's "how do we close down plants and consolidate models?".

    They've had some good models come down the pike that they either let languish too long without updates, or ignored entirely. I think some of this stems from the John Smale days (he of Procter & Gamble marekting fame) when he was their chairman. Big difference in marketing "new and improved" Pampers with a new little tabby to hold a diaper on better and making a complex car that people want to buy. But, that was P&G's way. If a brand doesn't work, either sell it off or shut it down.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    The Camaro/Firebird could've taken the market completely away form the Mustang had GM only been willing to listen to the muscle car buying public. Instead, they allowed the F-Bodies to become outdated to the point they couldn't give them away, then they dropped the models completely. Nice move bowels!
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    bottgers....remember, Ford thought several times about axing the Mustang as a muscle coupe. Remember, the ill-fated Probe was supposed to supplant the Mustang. The Mustang enthusiast core inundated Ford with negative replies for such a move (plus, they kept buying the V8 RWD Mustang) that Ford decided to keep developing it. Granted, Ford used the old "fox" platform way too long for Mustangs, but they've done a nice job with the '05 (based loosely on the Lincoln LS platform). Ford walked the tightrope with the new '05 Mustang. It has appeal for the "mature buyer" (me) by using some retro styling cues. Yet, they kept it "new" enough to appeal to the younger crowd. That's a tough line to tread.

    GM's decision to ax the F-body was short sighted, IMHO. They certainly didn't have the appeal any longer to those that could afford them. I was 20 years younger the last time those held any sort of appeal to me.

    In hindsight, GM could have done the same with the GTO....put in a few "retro" styling cues from the GTO's heyday of the late 60s, yet keep it modern with the platform it sits on today.

    However, one has to wonder if the GTO was a hit, what GM would have done? The Mustang will sell in the neighborhood of 150,000 units of the '05 version. If the GTO was a hit, the most they could have produced was about 20,000. Unfortunately, they are still struggling to sell off all the 18,000 units they originally produced last year. This year, they hope to sell about 12,000 units. Yet, from what others are saying, different parts of the country have yet to see an '05. GM shot themselves in the foot, yet again. Those 12,000 GTOs are going to show up sooner or later. When they do, will GM be able to keep the interest of the customer? Or, will they all show up about the same time, and GM has to rebate them to clear the lots?

    Their customers have told them what they have to do (restyle it), but they seem content to leave it alone. Makes you wonder how committed GM is to the model?

    There's a particularly "tasty" '05 GTO (black metalflake exterior with red interior) that's been sitting on my dealer's lot for about a month. It's sitting there with an MSRP of $33,690. Right next to it sits a new silver '04 GTO with big numbers on the windshield stating "SALE....$25,995". Neither one is selling. The '04 has been there at least 6 months. That doesn't instill a lot of confidence to the person that may be in the market for a GTO as far as it's real world value.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • seekaineseekaine Member Posts: 8
    But want to comment on the Fox body 5.0 since I owned one and read all I could about them when I was in HS in the late 80's. I ordered a 92 notchback 5sp with radio delete, no AC, only option rear defrost and 3.08 gears. I don't remember specifically about the 86-89 versions,but 90-93 2.73 gears were stock, 3.08 were optional on 5sp and 3.27 were optional on auto. The cars were fast since they had 225 hp and 300ft/lbs torque. The problem was the small 225 tires and poor weight distribution would not allow the car to hook up. The only difference I remember off hand from the 87-88 engines were the MAF and roller rockers. 86 was the first EFI 5.0 but had smaller heads. The fastest I ever saw a mag test a notchback was one of the mustang mags had a 92 5sp 3.08 gear 1/4 mile in 14.0@101 The fastest 0-60 I remember Motortrend had a 89 or 90 5.0 Hatchback with 3.08 gears 0-60 in 6.2.
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    The final number I saw for '04 production was 15728. Based on that, as of 1/4/05 there were 2080 remaining to be sold. They do seem to be lingering though don't they. The dealers can't quite get to a price people can live with for an automatic and I'm guessing that's the bulk of the leftovers.

    I don't know how many '05s are in country now, but there's no way they can all show up at once because of the shipping dynamic. One boat only holds so many and the trip is about six weeks. Depending on when they kick in the big incentives (it was September last year) there could be a bunch of them on the lots at one time though.

    jae5 - GM said they were going to fix the allotment issue by diverting cars from the North Central Region to other parts of the country. Sounds like they aren't getting it done at this point.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Yeah....Pontiac can't seem to get their pricing strategy down on GTOs. If they offer rebates on the '05s to move them, then the '04s leftover will never sell. That said, my Pontiac dealer has a BRAND NEW '03 Pontiac Aztec sitting on their lot.

    I have no idea what it would sell for, but it would have to be real "skinny" money if I were looking for one.

    GM is in quite the quandary with the GTO. Certainly, it's an appealing car. But, if they didn't rebate the daylights out of the '04, they never would move. Plus, they are still languishing. At the same time, they are trying to sell '05 GTOs that are priced about $6K more in real dollars. That's a hefty real world price difference from one model year to the next.

    So, you couldn't sell '04s at $30K +. You hope that the '05s will sell at that price, even though you already have proof that they won't move from the previous model year's sales. Pontiac dropped a bigger engine in the '05s, but that really didn't address the problem.

    Personally, at this late juncture, you slap a $4k rebate on the '05s. You've got '04s with $5K of dealer cash already on them. '05 is $1k more than the '04 with that pricing model.

    I don't know if GM has committed to an '06 GTO or not, but it makes one wonder. No one knows what '07 holds for the GTO. Plus, GM won't tell you because that would make people wait before buying.

    What more can GM do? They've already got their "halo" engine in it. It doesn't look like they want to do more than a few minor styling changes to the body.

    The future of the model really should have GM worried, though. And that's a real shame because it is a good car.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • 4rider4rider Member Posts: 96
    Maybe there has been a few GTO TV commercials here and there but that is certainly not enough to boost the market. Look at how much ads money Chrysly has been putting on bragging about Hemis I have seen countless on Rams, Magnums, and Grand Cherokees with Hemi. I knonw GTO is not meant to be a volume leader but still, I can't believe GM is letting this 400hp performance unknown to the general public who are not a car buff. Here in San Jose, the import country, not many people know about the GTO and certainly far fewer peolpe know it has 400hp under the hood.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    I must say, you are up on your 5.0's. What cars are you interested in nowadays?
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    shhhhh! Don't spread it around. It's supposed to be a secret.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Well, if Pontiac still has roughly 2,100 '04s they are still trying to sell....even with the $5K GM to dealer payment, then they are still stuck. I see as many '04s on the dealer's lots as I do '05s.

    I'll assume Feb '05 GTO sales figures from GM include quite a few leftover '04s in the mix.

    That tells me that their monthly sales rate for '05 GTOs is still on the "skinny" end of what GM wants...even with the reduced production of the '05 model.

    Give it another 30-60 days and Pontiac will have yet another fiasco on their hands with the GTO when more '05s show up. Then, they'll still have '04s and a glut of '05s hanging around.

    Maybe that's the time to strike a deal for one. But, the customer is still faced with the issue of terrible resale value (never a GM strong suit to begin with).

    I don't know what GM is doing.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    Stopped by the dealer a couple of days ago with my wife to schedule my next oil change. The first thing we see is a couple of '05's. They look better in person that in the pictures. Just out of curiousity I asked how much it would cost to upgrade? He said it would cost too much right now but to wait until some incentives come. He told me to take a drive in it but I wasn't really interested. He said to go ahead and drive it into San Francisco (just a couple of miles away) and they would change the oil while I was gone. That was twisting my arm. I guess there are worse ways to spend a sunny afternoon than driving around San Francisco in an '05 GTO with 17 miles on it.

    We were on our way to SF anyway so off we go in the '05 GTO. I didn't even thrash it. Even parked it while we ate and went shopping. But I tell you, we both fell in love with it. It was a dark grey and just looked outstanding. And the torque was unreal. It actually is much more powerful. It even sounds better. I don't care for those chrome tips but the sound coming out of them is much better also. It seems to idle louder but is quieter when you step on it. Oh, and not once did it skip shift. I don't know if they left it off or I just managed to avoid it. Anyway, that is one sweet car and I want it. If it sells before the incentives come out, oh well, but I am definitely going to upgrade.
  • tripowergtotripowergto Member Posts: 83
    From an insider on another site:

    "Another good month for GTO given the inventory levels and time of year!

    988 for the month of February, last year was 606
    670 2005 models (68%), 318 2004 models (32%)
    Grounded stock as of 3/1 was 2,773 or 70 days worth
    Grounded stock mix as of 3/1 was 1,025 2004 models (37%) and 1,748 2005 models(63%)
    For the year GTO is up 74%

    Top five states:
    1 - California (by a long shot, LA is the # 1 city for the year!)
    2 - Florida
    3 - Illinois
    4 - Georgia
    5 - Arizona"

    There's only 1025 04's left and the majority of them are automatics. They can be easily purchased outright on ebay for $23500. 05's can be found for $500 over dealer invoice if you're a serious buyer. Too bad the media has been so harsh on the GTO. These are truly GREAT cars!!
  • seekaineseekaine Member Posts: 8
    I currently have a 2000 Mustang GT. I am a car nut and always toy with the idea of buying something. I am always cross shopping various cars, GTO, 350Z, Boxster, S2000, Vette. I drove the 2004 GTO at a GM event last summer. The fit and finish and seats were great. However, the lack of dead peddle for my size 13 foot was a deal breaker. I liked the way the GTO handled, but thought the acceleration wasn't any different than my GT. However, it is possible that it needed to be broken in. I did drive a Z06 at that event and that car was incredible. The problem is I live in the city and walk to work, so I have a hard time justifying pay big money for a car. That's why I replaced my 5.0 with a new GT since they are fairly inexpensive to own and maintain. The solid axle is very durable for all the potholes!
  • zingerzinger Member Posts: 61
    What do you think of the 350Z compared to the GTO? I am thinking of trading my Celica GTS for either the Z or the GTO.

    I steered away from the GTO 04 stick because of the lack of room between the clutch and the sidewall. They made it a little better in the 05.

    From what I have been reading the Z has some problems with reliability and excessive tire wear.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    Well, with size 13 feet you're not going to make it in a GTO. My feet get tangled with the clutch and I'm only size 11. Lack of foot room is a common complaint. For the life of me I can't figure out why a car of that size has so little room down there. I don't think the dead pedal in the '05 helps much. I think it's farther back than the clutch pedal so you still have to go around the clutch a little. Just out of curiosity, what city do you live in?
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Chi-town (Chicago). There's two dealers (Ford) by my office that have Mustangs as well, V6 and GT, with and w/o spoilers. The GTs without the spoilers look cleaner IMO than the ones that have them, though the spoilered ones look o.k. too.

    Anyway, back the Pontiac.
  • seekaineseekaine Member Posts: 8
    I really liked the Z since it is very responsive. The main problem was seeing out of it because of the large blind spots. The GTO is much more muscle car, so the two are quite different. Since I've driven Mustangs since I was 19 I really like the torque from V8's and GM small blocks are hard to beat. I have heard of the tire feathering problems. That is one thing I dislike about a lot of cars today like the Z, Vette, Porsche's are since you have different size wheels the only way to rotate them is to physically take them of the rim. So be prepared to pay a lot for tire maintenance on a Z.
  • seekaineseekaine Member Posts: 8
    Washington, DC
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    sputterguy....when I test drove the '05 GTO, I was surprised that it didn't have the "skip shift" either. I don't know if this is something that is "enabled" during prep....or if it was "secretly" left off the '05s.

    About the productions figures....a 70-day supply is not good (30-45 day supply is considered good).

    If the goal for the '05 is to sell 1,000/mo and they are only selling 670/mo, that's not good either.

    350Z vs GTO.....GTO....hands down. It's built better and from all reports has been rock solid from a build/engineering standpoint. Plus, it will be flat out faster and ride better.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Also saw the vehicle on Speed Channel yesterday (not sure if it was the same show you saw months ago). Pretty much was self-explanatory, didn't really learn anything new but what was interesting was that myself and a lot of others on this board hit the nail on the head: great car on paper, but the car just doesn't have it in terms of passion and desire. Also, the marketing for this car is very confusing. Jim Wangers stated that Pontiac was positioning the car not to the muscle car crowd or the purists, but to the BMW owners, particularly the 3-series, and the like. But Pontiac didn't follow through. They said it but didn't execute. My thought was I don't think anyone outside of Pontiac knew that the intended market was BMW owners and the like. This was almost as laughable when John Coletti made the statement that the supercharged Mustang Cobra's main competitor was the M3 and the like. Give me a break! M3 buyers weren't even giving the Cobra a passing glimpse just as most BMW owners aren't giving the Pontiac a look either.

    When I was doing my car-buying "cross-shop" lists, the GTO didn't show up on any one of them. For example, on one list I had the G35 coupe, IS-300, BMW 330 coupe, BMW M3 (used), Audi A4/A6. The GTO didn't even come to mind. I also know a few BMW owners and none of them think of Pontiac when they talk about their vehicles or cross-shop for a replacement. And to go along with this, the few GTO commercials and other advertising bits have no mention of going after the BMW crowd; they're more toward hauling a**, burning rubber, and doing burnouts. Not really the thing BMW owners and the like look for.

    Also on the show were views from people test driving the vehicle and from those in different Pontiac groups at driving events or meets. Pretty much the same thing, "Nice car, great fit & finish, awesome power, but it ain't a GTO. Where's the hood scoop? Where's the split duals? Where's the rumble? Where the trunk? Where's the excitement?"

    As stated through-out the show, the car wasn't just competing against other vehicles, it was competing against itself, particularly the 64 - 72 models. A decent car, good power, but just doesn't have the "umphf", the "damn that's hot" (excuse the language); a good sleeper, but too much asleep.
  • white6white6 Member Posts: 588
    GM has become the "discount" maker. True, what got me in a new 04 GTO (in Sept. 04) was the same thing that got me in a new 04 Silverado (in July 04): major discounts. GTO MSRP was $33,495; purchase price $25,339. Silverado MSRP $28,950; purchase price $19,000 (plus a $500 Lowes Gift Card, so a net price of $18,500). These are after all the rebates/discounts, before taxes and trade-in. Are either of these vehicles the "best" on the market. Probably not. But, like the Silverado, the GTO provides everything I desire (and more) and it's impossible to beat the value at these prices.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    jae....thanks for that update. That sounds different than the program I saw. The one I saw had Wanger driving around a race track with somebody who was allegedly some sort of "race star" (although, I'd never heard of him). He then took it out on the road and had mostly good things to say about it.

    Then there was a segment on "drifting" a GTO with some supposed drifter champion. That's also not something you're likely to see appeal to the BMW customer. That's the province of the younger crowd. Unfortunately, the drifting demographic can't afford a $33K car. It was fun to watch, though.

    I agree. There aren't going to be many folks prancing from the BMW store to the Pontiac or Ford dealer. I'm sure both GM and Ford want that to happen, but it's not.

    IMHO, in addition to the lack of marketing of the GTO, the little I saw of the marketing touted the current "iteration" as a "return of the GTO legend". In other words, they almost made it seem as if there was going to be some sort of retro GTO coming to market. As we all know, at least from a styling perspective, this wasn't the case.

    Having been a bimmer owner in the past, I can tell you that I cross shopped it with Audi and a Benz.....not a Pontiac. I didn't have any reason to do so, at the time. Still don't think I'd cross shop. M3s are very fast cars, too. As you say, doing a smoky burnout as part of the GTOs marketing campaign isn't going to cause anyone to meander from their BMW to Pontiac for no other reason than different dynamics of the two cars (which is quite different from each other). The only thing they really do have in common...BMWs are quick and so is the GTO.

    To add to all of this, Pontiac is stuck in a pricing quandary. '04s with big incentives still on the lots and '05s with no incentives while people are, for the most part, waiting for them to kick-in.

    I'll have to check out the Speed Channel show you saw. I'd like to see it if it ever comes on again.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • 1meangto1meangto Member Posts: 1
    pontiac isnt advertising these cars at all. id say their selling pretty good with no advertising. its one of the most fun car's ive ever driven and ive driven alot of cars. i think pontiac would sell these cars alot more if they just did a little advertising.
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    Yep, I agree - picked up the wife's loaded Envoy SLT (all options except air suspension, sticker approaching $41k) for $27k before trade and TTL back at the end of September. I couldn't touch any other SUV with those features for anything approaching that price.

    My bad luck run with recent GM vehicles continues, though, as the Envoy is at the dealership for service visit #4 (4WD system failed - car won't move if it's switched into 4WD - it's previously suffered from a cracked spark plug, a bad injector, and a bunch of ECM/PCM/transfer case software updates due to spurious 4WD error lamps, and hunting/slipping going up hills)...

    --Robert
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    For GM, a 70-day supply is good. And I wonder how many of that 70 days are actually at dealerships, or on boats, sitting at Benecia, or are on trains/trucks en route to dealers.

    Also, I don't think they anticipate selling 1000 a month to reach the 12,000, considering it's winter in half the continental U.S. yet. Now, if they maintain the under-1k sale rate in April/May/June, then they have a problem. I think they're playing wait-and-see and holding back on incentives/rebates. Of course, they did that last year, too, not putting anything on the hood until July, and by then it was too late to move the huge backlog they had.

    --Robert
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Hope you're right. I've yet to hear any manufacturer (including GM) that thinks a 70-day supply of any model to be good....or even acceptable.

    You may be right about the "seasonal" thing regarding the GTO. But, if I'm in Lutz's shoes, I'd rather be hitting the monthly target right out of the chute when the "buzz" about a model is highest. If it ain't selling now, when all the auto shows have put them on the turntable and touted the LS2, hood scoops, real tail treatment, etc of the '05, then that tells me they're going to have even worse issues down the road in selling them when the "buzz" and the "new & improved status" from the car shows have died down, if not totally forgotten.

    I do want to see it succeed. But, it's in the middle innings and the home team is losing. In reality, the GTO has another 5 months to make up for lost ground. We'll see how they do. If it's going to make a move, the time is now. GM can't put a bandaid on it later in the year with incentives. By then, the game is already out of control.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    Thanks tripower, lot's of good info.

    "Another good month for GTO given the inventory levels and time of year!
    - How can anyone say that with a straight face? If 318+ of the 1886 they sold so far this year are '04s, the '05s are CRAWLING off the lots. Where's the excitement/anticipation? I'm afraid there is none. At least not at $30K.

    I believe you're mistaken about eBay though. I just checked and since 2/17 only one car has actually sold. A used Barbados Blue (almost 7K miles) went for $24995. No other sales new or used with bids up to $23600.

    Robert - you are an eternal optimist. Two new GM car purchases recently and nothing but trouble from both.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    "...the little I saw of the marketing touted the current "iteration" as a "return of the GTO legend"...." I'm glad you mentioned this because it is one of the things I found funny about the program as well. There was a person on the show from GM, European accent, who is one of the team members responsible for bringing the Monaro over here. He stated that the purpose and push of the car was to bring excitement back to the brand, to bring a highly refined auto to compete with vehciles of its caliber. But as you stated, the marketing touted the car as the return of the GTO and its legend. This automatically leads most to think of the 64 - 72 goats, raw power and performance, not an Infiniti G35 or BMW 3-series. I was more excited when the redesigned GP, particularly the GTP and GT coupes, came out in '96 - '97? Don't like the current one at all.

    The show should be on again, it's American Muscle Car, so it'll re-run a gazillion times. Pretty good show, too many darn commercials though.

    Yeah, Pontiac, GM as a whole really, is stuck. As mentioned by yourself and another poster, GM is getting business due to the incentives and discounts, not really because their vehicles are "must haves".
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Tripower,

    Do you or your insider have information in terms of which cities or regions whithin the states are seeing the most action? I was shocked by Illinois being listed as #3. I've only seen two on the street since last summer (both in June). Of the rest I've seen, they have been at a few dealers' lots.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    Washinton, DC. What a beautiful city. You must love to fire up the GT and cruise down those wide boulevards.
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    If you were talking about the guy with the Aussie accent, that's Mike Simcoe. He's the guy that's pretty much responsible for the design of the Monaro, and he's been promoted higher in GM/now lives and works in North America.

    He personally hated the design changes (grilles, rear spoiler, hood scoops) that Pontiac made in "his" car.

    There seems to be a lot of territorial BS going on between GMNA and Holden. My wife used to work for a company that did a lot of tool & die patterns for GM, and she stays in touch with one of her old GM customers. He had nothing good to say about the GTO and said he'd never buy one. So, the negativity that Pontiac gets about the car comes even from people working at GM!

    --Robert
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    Midwesttrader, you made the comment that I'm an eternal optimist, having purchased 2 new GM vehicles (GTO in August/September, Envoy in late September) and had nothing but trouble with them.

    I think I'm just unlucky. Either that or GM quality has gone noticeably downhill. My Aurora had some issues (AC compressor, multifunction switch, Northstar rear crankshaft engine seals) but my warranty covered those, and the car has been bulletproof for the last 30k miles. My wife's GTP was pretty solid for the 3 years we had it. She and I both had Luminas that were little more than gas, tires, and oil (also an alternator and battery) in 5+ years of driving. My '91 Grand Prix was great except for the common rear caliper/brake issues. Her '94 Grand Am was also bulletproof.

    I've never had a tranny problem in any GM car. The only engine problem I've had was the rear crankshaft seals on my Aurora.

    At this point, so early in my loans on these vehicles, I would probably do lucky to be even on the Envoy, and would take a bath on the GTO. Since I do have a warranty, I'm biding my time. Should the problems continue, I will be dumping them before the warranty expires.

    I have told my wife that it is no great certainty that my next vehicle will be from GM, employee discount and GM card dollars notwithstanding. I am in high hopes that my new GTO is as solid as virtually everyone else's has been.

    Marketing, styling, shoulda-woulda-coulda, when I drove my old car, I loved it. Can't wait for the snow to be gone!

    --Robert
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    "pontiac was positioning the car, not to the muscle car crowd, or the purists, but to the BMW owners". I think you have to take this as gospel. Remember the car comes from Australia and they take their design cues from Europe, not Asia or America. The only question is why in the world did they bring this Australian car, with BMW attributes, to America and call it a GTO. Calling it a GTO creates all these expectations that, as you have pointed out, have not been fulfilled. And the advertising for it is ridiculous as you have pointed out. It doesn't appeal to the BMW crowd and it doesn't appeal to us older guys. We don't burn rubber. We want to be able to, but we don't. Well, maybe a chirp or two here and there. And like that stupid movie they did, that was supposed to appeal to the younger crowd and I don't think it did. A concept car that failed its concept. I guess it could have been worse.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    That GTO movie was the one Pontiac sent to me when I requested info in the '05 GTO. It was certainly not one of the better (or even mediocre) theatrical entities I've seen. And, you're right....it was geared towards an audience that can't even afford a GTO. That said, it did come with "extras" on the DVD that showed all the GTO commercials from its introduction to the present day's commercials (which I have to admit was the first time I had seen the current ones).

    I've seen the Monaro. That Aussie guy shouldn't be complaining. If they brought the Monaro over here without at least a minor re-style, none of them would have sold.

    GM has an image problem here in the states. I don't know what their image is in Australia, but short of the Corvette, which will get looks from the Porsche crowd, or the Caddy, which in current iterations may get some BMW cross-shopping, nothing else in their line-up will get even a nod from the Toyota/Honda crowd....let alone BMW or Audi.

    I qualify for GMS via my brother-in-law. And, even though I get great pricing, the only worthwhile GM I've had in recent years was my bulletproof GTP. Unless you want to travel back in time and remind me of the very first car I bought.....a well used Chevy with a 283 V8 in it. I don't know if I loved that car because it was my first car or not. But, it ran like the dickens.

    I've had a couple of GMs here and there over the years, but nothing that I'd look back on fondly.

    I'm trying really hard to make my case for a GTO, but am probably talking myself out of it. That should tell me something....the car has a 400 HP motor and I'm ambivalent about it. Maybe that should tell GM something, too. After all, I'm the guy who can afford one and the person GM is trying to market it to.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • zingerzinger Member Posts: 61
    I have been trying to talk myself into this car for 4 months!
    The interior is well made but I guess I dont like the fact that you seem to be sitting way up high in it. The 350Z is the complete opposite. I just never felt in total control of the GTO when pushing it. The Z felt totally in control. My wife thinks the Z is cooler and is pushing me to get the Z even though it is a 2 seater.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    GM blew the marketing of the GTO, pure and simple. I owned about 10 different GTOs during the '70s and '80s and I had no idea what the new one was about until relatively recently.

    A car that does not sell well upon launch rarely, if ever, gathers steam later. By the same token, one that does not sell well new does not hold its value as a used car.

    It pains me to say it but I can't see any reason why the GTO will be any different from the norm.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    The Z is a nice car. I didn't like the "sitting in the bathtub" feeling I got since the door sills are so high. Plus, although the handling limits are high in the Z, you have to work hard to get the car to do what it's capable of doing. Lastly, everything felt heavy in the Z (much like the GTO). The difference between the Z and the GTO, is the GTO is faster and has better quality materials in the inside. The GTO rides firm, where the Z rides harsh. Then there's the issue of a back seat and room. What really sent me over the edge with the Z was I couldn't fit my golf bag in the back. Can't have that.

    Just my take, though. I'd never denigrate anyone in a Z. Funny, when I had my RX8, Zs were always hanging around on the road with me. And, vice versa.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    I really, really, really hope they left the skip shift off the '05. I know it's easy to defeat, and usually I just drive through it. But sometimes it happens when you least expect it or at a very inopertune time. It can be very aggravating.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    Well, well, well. $24K for a used GTO. That's a good sign that GTO's will hold their value.
  • zingerzinger Member Posts: 61
    Oh no graphicguy - the Z salesman told me I could fit 2 golf bags in the back. Of course I always believe what salesmen tell me. He also said he never heard of any problems with the Z especially not tire problems. I can fit 2 golf bags in my Celica no problem.

    Can you fit 2 in the GTO?
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    As far as I've read elsewhere, the '05 sticks still have the skip-shift feature by default. It's easily defeated, though :-)
  • casoncasecasoncase Member Posts: 48
    Thanks, mattchalmers. Using different gears to vary RPM and engine load makes sense.

    Yes, the '05 has the skip shift. I rarely confront it though -- gotta hear/feel that grunt/rap, which is why I get bad mileage (14 city).

    Question: one of the dual pipes is a little off-center. The pipes are hung on rubber from very substantial welded components. There doesn't seem to be any way of re-positioning the pipe. Any ideas?

    My '04 Goat is on the dealer's lot for 25M.

    As to declining value, you know what? Wait until 2007 and you can get a really great deal on an '05; wait until 2010 and you can get three '05s really cheap! Buying a car is not like buying a stock, whose value can go up or down.

    How do you measure what a car -- or anything else -- is worth to you? By sales stats, or what strangers think about it? That's part of it, but not a great part. Even if I were filthy rich I'd have bought the goat. Don't know why, but a Carrera or S6 is just too snotty/elitist (and too frequently seen) for me. What was it she said? Different strokes for different folks?

    It turns out that the rarity of the new goat is a plus, for me. I guess that's why a 1964 Mack truck or Steerman bi-plane will always get my stare. How boring would it be to be one of a gazillion Mustang owners? "Oh, mine's red! Oh, mine's blue and it's a GT! And there's another one over there! And over there! Is that a Cobra? I don't know, I'll have to get closer so I can read the badging."

    On the other hand, when a goat rumbles by, noone wonders what it is.
  • white6white6 Member Posts: 588
    If they imported the Monaro CV8 EXACTLY as it is built (except make it left-drive, of course) I would be on it in a heartbeat. You can have your Pep Boys scoops and wings. The de-contenting and bling-bling tack-ons defeated the original purpose of this car... subtle and refined, but powerful. How can you seriously expect to attract BMW folks with the clunky HVAC controls and tacked-on wing (that also duplicates the high-mounted center brake light... so it looks even MORE like the afterthought that is was). Take a look at the Monaro and you won't see a big wing to block your rear vision. What you will find is electronic dual-zone climate control and memory for power seats and mirrors. Yeah, I know everyone says that if they included these things, the price would just be higher. Really? How much more can it cost to LEAVE OFF the wing? Or build all of them (Monaros and GTOs) built on the same line with the climate control system? Or include the memory seat function? I'd wager maybe $300, when you figure the economy of not having to build separate versions. I'm hoping they will integrate some of these into the 2006 model, but I'm not "Holden" my breath.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    "I don't like the fact that you seem to be sitting way up high in it". This caught my attention because I felt that way too. I couldn't figure out why sometimes I just couldn't get the seat adjusted right. I mentioned this to the dealer in conversation and he said that the seats were 8-way and went up and down in addition to forward and backward and tilting. Say what? So we go out to my car and he pushes the knob down and the seat lowers an inch or two. I get in it and voila, I'm sitting lower, got plenty of head room, and am comfortable. Duh! If you are aware of the 8-way then nevermind. Otherwise try that and see how it feels. If that was the problem then you will also find yourself more in control. I hope that was it so you can go and snap up one of '04's. Or '05 if you prefer.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    zinger....good luck fitting two golf bags in the GTO's trunk. It's every bit as bad as the 350Zs hatchback space.

    case...resale is looking bad on the GTO. If brand new leftover '04s are sitting on dealer's lots for $10K less than MSRP, then it's reasonable to think the '05s won't fare any better.

    As much as I think the GTO is a good car, in all reality, I fear it's destined for extiction after the '06 model year. Some will think that makes it a collectible. I personally think it will be considered a GM "bust" with little collectible value.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • brushbanditbrushbandit Member Posts: 33
    It's good to see that alot of readers of C&D wrote to thier "backfire" section about the lame Mustang GTO comparison. The GTO won in almost every catagory but they give it to the Mustang on the "got to have" factor. Cut me a break. It's good to see there are still some intelligent people reading that mag.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    When I went to the dealer this week I also went to complain about my thunk in my trunk which last time they didn't fix. This time I was armed with the TSB that was posted by hammen. Thanks Robert. When I picked the car up the service rep pointed out my build date was later than the TSB would cover but they ordered the parts anyway and will install them when they come in. Hopefully that will take care of that problem.

    While I was there another salesman was checking out the '05 they brought over for me to drive. He has an'04 that is in the shop because the gear shift rattles or buzzes. I told him other guys have that problem too. He had it in before for that problem and even though he worked there they gave him the same song and dance about 'performing per specification' or something like that. He didn't accept that and I guess they are going to fix it for real this time.

    And finally, in the showroom was a red '04 6-speed. I checked the sticker on the window out of curiostity and it still said $3995 Dealer Markup. I laughed and said "$3995 Dealer Markup". Another salesman said no there was no markup on it. Well, take that crap off then. The car should have had a sale sign on it. I didn't bother to ask what they really wanted for it. I don't care and I know they would deal.
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