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Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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Comments

  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    exalteddragon1: The car you describe has a name - the new Chrysler 300. The larger trunk in the Ford 500 may be a critcal difference for some buyers people like me who do not want another wagon, but want a large car or a medium-sized pickup. In fact, the 2005 Honda car-trunk is also on my short list.

    But remember, most of the Accords, Camrys, Altimas, and so forth sold are equipped with the base engine. The 500 will compete well against them and against the non-supercharged Buicks, Pontiacs, Pontiacs, Chevys, and the Crown Victoria.

    However, for buyers who want more power, the 500 with the initial 3.0 V6 will have a tough time competing against cars like the Maxima, G35, Camry SE, ES330, Impala SS, the supercharged GM cars, and the Chrysler 300s with the bigger engines.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I think ex has a point on the Nav system.....It's not a deal breaker for me, but it is for lots of folks I know. They are now of the opinion that no car should be made without at least having it as an option. I thought it did.....
  • rcf8000rcf8000 Member Posts: 619
    It's amazing that the Mazda 3 has Nav and Xenon available, but the Five Hundred apparently will not. Go figure...
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Exactly.....but it may have something to do with the projected market for this car, vs. the Mazda. For example, since most people who buy Town Cars are in their 60's, it's somewhat of a challenge to find a base model with the audiophile system installed. At least it was a few years ago, when my buddy wanted to buy one. This happened twice to him. While he and I would think a Lincoln would have it all, most of the buyers of the T/C either can't hear anymore, or only listen to AM I guess, and don't use a CD changer, etc. So, my point is, I guess Ford isn't figuring buyers of the 500 will want navigation? I think not having it as an option is a mistake though.
  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    I will not buy anything from DC because they lied to the public about the merger and instead make Crysler an "arm" of Diamler.
    If it was a real merger tho, or if crysler remained all american, I would defenetly look into this product, i love RWD V-8's. But I will think of more than myself when I make a car purchase.
    Not only do they have a german car center, but now they are occupying detriot. Those bastards can sell cars in hell for all I care.
  • setzersetzer Member Posts: 127
    okay I'm confused. Is the Five Hundered and Montego the replacement for the Crown Victoria and the Grand Marquis? If not, those two sedans need a huge re-design if they actually want to sale.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    are not being repaced by the Five Hundred or the Montego. Each of these cars are sandwiched in between others. Taurus/Five Hundred/Crown Vic - Sable/Montego/Gr. Marquis.
    The following will give you a clue to the future of the Crown Vic & Gr. Marquis.
    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0401/29/autos-49664.htm
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,236
    Most modern cars have the temperature gauge calibrated so that there is a 20-30 degree range over which the gauge will read dead center. I've never seen mine rise above that, no matter the conditions. I infer that, due to this and other modern technology, new cars overheat less often, but with less warning, than older models.

    Back on topic, I don't really care about the nav system. The going rate for those things is way too expensive!
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    perfect
  • fndlyfmrflyrfndlyfmrflyr Member Posts: 668
    Just finished reading many of the posts. Very interesting. Thanks to all of you for posting.

    Saw the 500 at the auto show and like the looks. Will have to wait for more engine before I'd consider one though.

    Comment to the person that doesn't like DC. You really thought they were merging? It appeared to me, from the start, it was a purchase. On the plus side, my DC car (a PT GT) is the best assembled car I have ever purchased. Much better than my Acura or Toyota. No, I don't like that the profits go to Germany, but at least a lot of our people still have jobs.

    As one that listens to AM radio news in the car, one that finds the super car sound systems useless, I do find a nav system almost essential. Having had one for a couple of years I wouldn't want to purchase a car without one. Agree the prices are still too high (the lowest I've seen is about $1200 from DC) for a built in one.
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    Comments:

    Regarding the 300C and 500: This is going to be an interesting battle. I'm sure the 500 will sell more, but I'm guessing if the 300C finds even a little styling acceptance, it'll be a big hit, but the 500 will do better in the "mainstream." There will be many cross shopping the 300C/Magnum, 500, and new Buick LaCrosse.

    fndlyfmrflyr: I'm glad you like your PT GT. My parents love their PT Cruiser and I really enjoy it as well. I recommend it to everyone I can.

    Nav Systems: I, for one, can't picture what need I'd have for one, but I will agree with those who say that once they've had one, they won't buy a vehicle without it. I've heard many friends say that.

    '05 Passat: If the spy photos floating around are any indication, it's a really, really good looking sedan that's much more than evolutionary. Imagine a scaled down Phaeton with the front of the recent VW concept two-seater. Super-upscale looking with loads of VW's somewhat fussy and excessive detailing, I'll bet the price will climb into the 3-series/C-class range as a result. If it doesn't, well, Accord and Camry look out!

    - Bret
  • upsetter1upsetter1 Member Posts: 205
    "On the plus side, my DC car (a PT GT) is the best assembled car I have ever purchased. Much better than my Acura or Toyota. No, I don't like that the profits go to Germany, but at least a lot of our people still have jobs."

    Are there any profits ? As far as I know money rather flow from Germany into our pockets through huge insentives.

    And there are European Ford, Opel, Jaguar and etc. who are losing money too.
  • fndlyfmrflyrfndlyfmrflyr Member Posts: 668
    When we got the X with the nav system (Acura's Alpine system) we thought of it as a toy that only would be used occasionally on trips out of area. The thought was we would never use it locally. We discovered the nav system to be very handy around town and ended up using it frequently for local driving.

    Very handy finding addresses in new to us neighborhoods, especially in the dark. The feature that show stores and restaurants by distance has been a big plus too. Getting around traffic jams is another...

    It is kind of like discovering it has more uses than expected and then finding you don't want to do without the convenience.
  • tpat3tpat3 Member Posts: 119
    I know I am in the minority (as usual), but the power issue seems overblown to me. The base engines in most cars are plenty for the way most of us drive, without consideration given to transmissions, gearing, etc. I'm sure the 500, with 200 hp, CVT or six-speed auto will be just fine.
    On the other hand, there certainly is a direct correlation between horsepower and sales -- see the Dodge ads featuring its hemi truck engines as evidence. Who the heck buys a truck because of its 0-60 time? Plenty of people, apparently.

    I don't understand how nav will not be an option. With the prices coming down on them, maybe that will change.
    I really like the looks and utility of this car. As former victim of one of Ford's "World cars" (Mondeo/Contour), I only hope they get this one right. I for one will wait a while to see how it ranks in reliability and resale. If it looks solid but loses 50 percent of its value after two years, I'll be on the used lot picking one up.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    Although there is substantial attention paid to 0-60 times and quarter mile times and speeds published in various sources (See Caddy CTS-v discussion here), I do believe that most people simply utilize this data for comparison – and to establish whether or not a potential vehicle will perform well enough in the driving they typically do to be adequate, or sufficiently beyond “adequate” to be interesting or exciting – whatever that means to them.

    I find cars with test results in the 8+ sec. Range for 0-60 / high 15 sec quarter mile to be marginal in some traffic situations, like merging into fast moving traffic where merge lanes are very short, particularly when carrying passengers and luggage.

    And I personally find vehicles with test results in the 6.5 sec. Range for 0-60 and below 15 sec quarter times generally result in a car that will effortlessly deal with any traffic situation, and offer entertainment when asked.

    Just my $.02.

    - Ray
    Always ready for increased accelerative performance, NOT always ready to pay for it . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    I drive 25,000 plus miles per year, but would not want a video screen distraction on the dashboard. I suspect that the Montego will offer the navigation display, and that they may also offer it on the 500. If not, someone who wants it simply needs to have one installed.

    The big issue with the Chrysler 300 will be the visibility. They will be out on the street as rentals in April, so we will know before the 500 is out in the Fall. Both cars have higher than normal seat bottoms, but Ford wisely refrained from raising the beltline.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Ford was aiming for a high seating position and good visibility with the Five Hundred. The cabin looks airy, which should be a plus. The Chrysler 300 greenhouse reminds me of the old stepdown Hudsons with their mailslot side windows.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    The 500 will use the Duratec 3.0 with 200 hp and 200 Lb.-ft?

    The 2004 Taurus, which uses the same engine, has been improved a bit, making 201 hp / 207 Lb.-ft, and improved mileage. Will the same engine be used in the 500? If so it's not 200 hp.

    ANT? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Yes same engine, but this past year some modifications and improvements on the engine's computer have resulted in 1HP gain, and 7TQ. Even a different type of muffler can alter this. But I go with more solid numbers like 200/200 than 1 or 2 off.

    The Escape uses the same engine, makes 200HP with 196TQ, this because it uses different computer, electronics, etc. which alter it in that way. Just earlier today I was reading a review of the new Volvo S40 on Edmunds, and read the HP at 218HP, yet on the specs it stated 220HP. (this mainly because the US conversation loses 2 from emmissions and such).

    But in all it's the same thing, the thing to look for is the transmission and how well they'll make use of the available power.

    "And I personally find vehicles with test results in the 6.5 sec. Range for 0-60 and below 15 sec quarter times generally result in a car that will effortlessly deal with any traffic situation, and offer entertainment when asked."

    Depends on which senario. I was using a friends new Accord yesturday and I was stopped at one lane at a light, and wanted to dart over the next lane over and go down maybe 75 ft...and with the initial press of the gas I was short on torque and frustrated the driver that was behind me. It wasn't till the tach hits 3000RPM that the engine is able to breathe better.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    I just happened to re-read a Car and Driver review in which they praised the affordable performance of a car that went from 0 to 60 in 8.3 seconds - the 1984 Pontiac J2000 Sunbird with the turbo package, a car I once owned. I suspect that the 500 will achieve the same low 8 second performance.

    By the way, the fastest Five Hundred / Montego will probably be the front wheel drive car with the six speed automatic - it has the most total (transmission * final drive) torque multiplication in 1st gear - 14.36, vs 12.8 for the 172 Lb. heavier awd car.

    The fastest way to accelerate with an automatic is to dip into the throttle slightly before releasing the brake, then floor the throttle at the same time you release the brake. You just want to load the torque converter and raise the revs, but not into the low thousands like drag racers with automatics.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    I had a Sunbird GT turbo in 86. I was very young but the car was a blast.
  • chavis10chavis10 Member Posts: 166
    200hp/200lbs-ft + 3800+lbs + AWD drag = SLOW
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    I'm expecting in the low 9s for acceleration 0-60 on an AWD model.
  • tpat3tpat3 Member Posts: 119
    Acceleration times are useful for comparison, but the fixation with them seems absurd to me. I drive a pick up. I don't know how quickly it reaches 60 and can't imagine why anyone would care. On the other hand, Volkswagen says my wife's Passat goes 0 to 60 in 7.3 seconds. I think it's a little faster than that (:)) but it's more than sufficient in all circumstances.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    I just found this excellent article on the development of the Five Hundred today:

    http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/cars13_20040113.htm

    Here is a link to excellent LARGE high-resolution photos - you can clearly see the stitches in the seats and other details:

    http://www.maximum-cars.com/Cars/Car.php?carnumber=525

    Acceleration is just one factor. Handling, braking, quality, size, visibility, looks, and passive safety are others.

    Car and Driver found that the 1994 T-bird 4.6 V8 we previously owned, with 205 HP and 265 Ft-Lbs. moving 3,900 Lbs. through a four speed automatic accelerated to 60 in 8.1 seconds. I'll bet that the 3,800 Lb. awd Five Hundred / Montego with 200+ HP and 200+ Ft.-Lbs. running through a six speed or CVT will still be in the eight second range, and that the front wheel drive versions will be in the low eight second range. The extra gears allow the engine to stay at peak torque. As I said many posts ago, Car & Driver reported that the LS430 lost a full second on the zero to sixty run when they upgraded from a five to a six speed automatic.
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    fsmmcsi: Thanks for the links! The article on the development was great (why aren't there more "inside the process" articles like this?). The photos were also appreciated. Looks like a high quality interior!

    - Bret
  • s852s852 Member Posts: 1,051
    While, it doesn't look "ugly," it sure is incredibly sedate and frumpy. Makes the front end of the current Taurus look sporty and sexy in comparison.
    Kind of a mix of Passat side and Avalon front.
    Front end is really too boring even for a family sedan.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    I happen to think the car is very attractive, and I like the front end. It is classy, not frumpy. If you read the article I referenced, the taget market wants something classy (the 500 is), something which can be used to go nice places, or work, or play. The target market is 40 year olds, not fashion driven 20 year olds, so I think that Ford did a wonderful job. The space, the high seating position, the large open greenhouse, plenty of good storage and holders for drinks and things, trunk hinges which do not crush cargo, show the good hard work of many people. The car will be a huge market success. With the new F-150, new Mustang, new Five Hundred, and GT, Ford dealerships will be exciting places in 2005.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Don't forget the Freestyle which is drawing rave reviews!
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    According to Car and Driver, the Lexus LS430 gained but 4 tenths when it when from a 5 speed to a 6 speed automatic.

    So, if you're going to base your statments on Car and Driver and the LS430, you might want to stop using the analogy that the six speed is going to make a substantial difference for the 500.

    Citation:
    2001 Lexus LS430 tested Nov. 2000 by Car and Driver, 0-60: 6.7 seconds.

    2004 Lexus LS430 tested Dec. 2003 by Car and Driver, 0-60: 6.3 seconds.

    ~alpha

    PS- I'm not trying to be a smart [non-permissible content removed], and I let the mistake go the first time you said it, but you've repeated it and I'd like the record to stand straight.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Oops, Alpha and everyone, I regret the error, and appreciate your pointing it out. I am usually careful with numbers, sure missed this one. Now, I wonder what car and test I was think about??? Still, six speeds vs four speeds should go a long way to making up for 65 fewer Ft.-Lbs (3,900 Lb. T-bird vs 3,800 Lb. Five Hundred).
  • 6thbeatle6thbeatle Member Posts: 180
    funny but these two cars are already growing on me. the montego has quite a sleek side profile actually. does anyone know if they will be priced like the accord V6 sedan with leather? i'm looking for my next car/wagon. right now i'm liking the new altima, the new mustang gt, the dodge magnum, and possibly the new legacy turbo wagon.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    Montego weighs more than Five Hundred by 3-7 lbs. depending on model but the rest of demensions appear to be the same.
    On Montego Luxury model - CVT is standard & AWD optional. Top of the line Premier model 6 speed Auto is standard and CVT only available with AWD.

    Thats at least how I read it from a Ford Media release dated 2/4/04. Specifications begin about mid-page. It appears to be contrary to the report that CVT is only available as AWD

    http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=17138&ma- ke_id=94
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Interior looks quite attractive to me. I like the generous use of wood, or, er....plood. Whatever. But I ask....where is the navigation??? If this car is to be state of the art, it should have navigation as an option. That means more to me than which engine it debuts with.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Yes, the large high resolution photos I mentioned above really show the nice details and quality. The spacious interior, the large open greenhouse, the good cup holders, the storage trays on the console, the clever bin atop the dash, the large console box, the door bottle holders, show quality esign by people who cared enough to get it right.

    Ford will probably offer navigation, but a competent car audio shop can add it. I drive all over southern and northern California, and occasionally other cities, but just don't understand the attraction of squinting at a tiny little screen, when paper maps are so readily available and inexpensive. I am interested in knowing why you like/want it?
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    The attraction to navigation systems is that most factory units are more than just map replacements. Voice control, voice instructions advising turns, databases of services, hotels, restaurants, bread crumb feature, and trip recalculation are just some of the features that NAV systems have over paper maps.

    Properly used, one barely needs to look at the screen in order to reach one's programmed destination whereas a map needs constant reference. The ability to tell the system to find a preprogrammed destination (ie home) and having the route plotted for you without any muss is worth it for many people. If one travels to unfamiliar areas often or are in job that requires much auto travel, a NAV system can be a great thing to have.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Honestly, I was totally non-plussed with the Nav systems initially. Then I started getting one thrown in to my Hertz rental cars from time to time when I was traveling. I figured out how to use them, and found them to be incredibly helpful in unknown areas, as they talk you to your destination. Very helpful over squinting over a map. Now, I'm sold. Now, I may or may not buy one in my next car, none of my 5 cars currently has one. But I do appreciate the value, and think Ford is making a huge mistake not having it available as an option, at least, for those of us who want it.
  • bewhite25bewhite25 Member Posts: 35
    I have to agree with fsmmcsi. A navigation system would be a relatively easy option to add if needed. It's one of those options that are more important for the sake of bragging rights than necessity, although it might prove to be very useful. Every vehicle in the Lincoln lineup has an available navigation system, and the Ford Expedition is now available with a navigation system, even though it is an outdated CD-based system. This just goes to show that if the need arises, Ford can easily make a decent DVD-based navigation system available for the Five Hundred, despite the fact that few people will actually ask for this expensive option.
         The major selling point on the Five Hundred, I believe, will be quality. Although this vehicle may not be directly competing with the Accord or Camry, the reason these two vehicles are the top selling sedans in the U.S. is that they are comfortable, solid, and a good value. They do offer navigation systems and have respectable V6 specs, but the majority of people buy them because they are affordable good cars, simply put. I think the Five Hundred has the right idea. Ford went conservative on the styling as not to scare away buyers away and focused on the more important issues. The interior is beautiful and the Duratec 30, which has been around since 1996, has had time to be polished and refined. The two available transmissions should offer a great match to this proven powertrain.
         Also, the Duratec 35 isn't that far away. I think it was a good idea for Ford not to not rush this new engine, which was the case with the new Powerstroke, and also to leave more room for improvement on the Five Hundred.
         Although the high-end models are the only ones being previewed, the base SE should be what really determines the outcome of the car. For only a little over $22k, you get power windows and locks, cruise control, a power driver's seat, power adjustable pedals, CD player, traction control, keyless entry, and a sophisticated DOHC engine and 6 sp. auto transmission. To me, that's an incredible deal and should attract many buyers. However, we can say all we want but no one will really know what is going to happen until production models come out, test drives are conducted, reviews are written, and the actual vehicle is sitting on dealership lots.
         Sorry, I've been reading all these posts on this topic and just had a lot to say!
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Don't apologize, it was an excellent post with many good points! Personally, I prefer the interior and exterior styling of the Buick LaCrosse, but I need to see/feel/read more about materials quality of both models. If I was going to go for a high trim 500, at this preliminary point, I would prefer the LaCrosse, with its 3.6L 240hp OHC engine. That of course, could change, when the "Duratec 35" comes out. (I'm not overly impressed with the "Duratec 30" in Taurus/Sable application, and I dont think the 500 will change that...). People ridicule the GM 3800 engine, but its very torquey, provides very good fuel economy, and is quite reliable. No, it isnt as refined as a Camcord V6, but its not a tractor engine either.

    The comparo I want to see: Five Hundred (top model... or the Montego's top model) vs. 300 Limited, redesigned Avalon XLS, LaCrosse CXS, Amanti, Maxima SL.

    The larger midsize class is getting interesting, IMO. (Thats my own term, because I will always only consider the Crown Vic/GM and Caprices the real "full size sedans")

    ~alpha
  • s852s852 Member Posts: 1,051
    I don't think nav will be an issue for the people they plan to sell these too. There is a reason a Buick Century doesn't have a nav system or play mp3s.

    As posts above prove, the majority of people buying a Montego or Five Hundred are the type to say "Why spend $2000 on a navigation system when a $2 gas station map is exactly the same thing?"
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Sorry, couldn't resist the title ;). Don't forget that the Five Hundred and Montego will offer two things the others cars don't have:

    - A high seating position for a good view, as in minivans, SUVs, and pickups, but not so high that you have to step up as is typical with SUVs, and,

    - A very large back seat and trunk, meeting the need to carry passengers in comfort and cargo, but in a package which is not a primative, frumpy and expensive Town Car, nor a relatively rough riding, and poorer handling SUV/truck.

    The Chrysler 300 will also offer a generous back seat and an elevated seating position, but it has a high beltline and 50's hot rod type roof . Unfortunately, it is highly probable that visibility will be horrible - fashion for the sake of fashion. Contrast that with the open and airy Five Hundred greenhouse. A big V8 is not enough to make me buy a car I can't see out of, and the Five/Hundred / Montego also has a much larger trunk.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
  • tpat3tpat3 Member Posts: 119
    With theater seating, trunk and passenger room and available AWD, the Five Hundred is aimed squarely at Mini Van/small SUV market. Why drive a truck when you can have most its utility with the superior handling of a sedan?
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    If they ever phase out the traditional body on frame full sized cars, then calling a FWD big car 'mid sized' would be incorrect. "Mid size" compared to what?

    If it's rated "large car" by the EPA, then it's a full sized car, FWD or not.
  • bewhite25bewhite25 Member Posts: 35
    The EPA can call it whatever it wants, but Ford is still better off labeling it a midsize because it will be more appealing to buyers.
  • s852s852 Member Posts: 1,051
    Rental car companies make up their own sizes. They consider a Taurus "full size."
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Yes, they indeed do! I have issues with that myself.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Internally, the 500 is known as D258, "D" denoting full-size, the Montego is D333. Comparison, the Futura is CD338 which can be translated to midsize but almost getting close in size to "D" Class.

    Ford might be calling these "Midsize" to not downstage the Crown Vic. Because the CV is RWD and V8, most will perceive that as being the "higher vehicle" in the line. Yet mechanically and in techonology, the 500/Montego are far more advanced overall.

    Ironically the other day I was looking at rental cars from some companies, and one mentioned the Cavalier as being "intermidiate" vehicle in their line up. Granted, space wise I might be able to swallow the Focus for maybe Intermidiate, but the cramp Cavalier??? Both the Cavalier and Focus are compacts, and should be respected as such. Next up, maybe the Sonata and Mazda6 are intermidiate (Hertz got this one right). A few had "standard" as a vehicle class (no such class). Then midsize are ALL the vehicles we know of like Accord, Taurus, Camry, new Malibu, etc. While the fullsize really being vehicles like Buick Park Avenue, Crown Vic/GM, Chrysler Concorde, etc.

    I suggest some view various rental agencies before they rent from them. I dislike that deceptive trick of trying to upsize a car. I don't think I would have been SO offended if maybe they used a larger "compact" like a Focus, Corolla, etc, but calling the cramp and lousy Cavalier Intermidite? Ahhh ! I fired off an email to those companies of course :)
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    "but Ford is still better off labeling it a midsize because it will be more appealing to buyers."

    Yeah that's true, but at some point, virtually all cars are going to be called "mid sized" and confuse buyers. Why not call it 'standard size'?

    And yes, rental firms are decieving. I went to an outlet and they claimed that a Neon was 'mid sized'!
This discussion has been closed.